Bonding stages

[Susanne]

Hi,

I’m currently attempting to bond my rabbits, I’m new to rabbit ownership and bonding. I’ve had my male (Elmer) about 5 months and he’s been neutered 4 months. I”m not sure his age, probably about 2. I just got a female who’s been spayed a couple months also (Ruby). She is almost 1 year old. I’ve had one terrible experience trying to bond Elmer, so this seems much better so far. I wonder how far along we are since I don’t have a ton of space and things would be much better once they can live together.

For those with bonding experience, could you help me estimate how far along we are and if we are looking at days, weeks or months to go? Observed behavior: I see positive and a little neutral behavior. I’ve had them together about 4 times, and last time for over 3 hours in a large walk in closet. They will lay close, eat together, both use toys in the space without one getting protective. No real grooming other than some nibbles? Elmer starting pooping randomly once I put in the litter box, but he was fine when she used it. He does nip her though. It’s light, sometimes pulls a little fur sometimes nothing. She jumps and runs, but she will flop soon after or go back near him. It seems to happen quite a bit, anytime they are pressing heads, or she gets too close to his face too long while eating or something.. I think he wants groomed and to be dominant. But it doesn’t get anywhere and they resume peacefully coexisting.

[DanaNM]

It sounds like they are doing very well so far. 🙂

As far as how long they have left, hard to say! You want to wait until you see grooming and no tense-ness or fur pulling. Since they are doing well you could start increasing the length of the sessions. You might also try different times of day. Some bunnies will get along great all day, then when nighttime hits things get more feisty.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Yes, it seems good but of course I worry they won’t bond 🙂

It does seem they are on the way to grooming since there have been some weird nibble attempts. I did already change time of day, and you’re right it did change things a little. During the day Elmer didn’t nip at all and it was more just laying close and grooming themselves. At night, they ate a lot, played, etc. That was when there was the nipping. Luckily they don’t seem really tense, Elmer just does a quick nip and it’s over. Very little fur but agree that needs to stop.   I think like you said next step is keeping them together longer. Over the weekend I’ll have more time and need to figure out how long I want to sit near the closet. ha. If it goes on much longer I’ll get another xpen for the living room.

[DanaNM]

After only 4 sessions I would not worry at all. Most “easy” bonds take a couple of weeks minimum, so just be patient.

Sounds like you have a good plan. 🙂

I would work up to 6-8 hour sessions, and then potentially go for an overnight once they can be together 8 hours without scuffling.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks for your input! Technically they’ve been together 2 weeks. Long story but tried to have someone bond them and it didn’t go well (nothing bad with their interactions, he just didn’t really do anything and cut them too short then called them a bad match :/). They were there a few days before coming home. Too many websites make it sound like a week or two is normal!  I’d be happy with 3 or 4 weeks, but dedicated to longer if needed. I was mostly curious if others experienced a bond soon after this stage, since I mostly see easy stories or the tough ones, not too much in between. Also any tips I can get are welcome. I’m trying to be patient, it’s hard because this has been a long journey with trying other rabbits/speed dating/ driving out of town for them 🙂

I’ll go for 6-8 hours this weekend as you suggest, and overnight soon if they do well. In the meantime will build up to the weekend.  I’ll update here as well for more possible tips or to help others in their journey!

[DanaNM]

In my experience most bonds take 2 weeks at an absolute minimum unless you get a “love at first site” pairing, which is pretty rare (and that’s after a settling in period and a couple weeks of pre-bonding). I’ve had several bonds take 3-4 months (!) and end with a very tightly bonded pair. So just keep at it and be patient. 🙂

If you search the forum for “bonding journal” and look for the ones that were successful you will get a better sense of how things can go along the process.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks again for the advice and great site. I have read some other stories and of course all are a bit different but it helped.

I put them together 10am Saturday and by 10pm no fur pulled or scuffles. They haven’t worked out the relationship yet either though. Elmer did some too rough grooming, maybe light nips and once she hopped away he’d follow a few steps max. No one looked upset maybe Elmer frustrated for 2 seconds. She is hardly using litter box though.

Anyway let them have my bedroom and slept with them. No fur this morning so apparently no scuffles. This morning Elmer tried to hump and she ran away, he’s bugging her a little but did lick her face some. So although not bonded I feel they can be together but confused on next steps. I was thinking keep them in my bedroom all day and maybe open up my condo tonight? The hard part for me is I don’t have help like a lot of the people in journal examples. I work from home Monday AM but can’t be super attentive. I don’t think I need to separate them anymore?

[DanaNM]

How long have they been together currently?

It isn’t safe to leave them unsupervised until you are very sure they are bonded. After they seem bonded, then you want to wait 24-48 hours because changing anything or leaving them unsupervised. To me it sounds like they are getting there but not quite, since you mention it doesn’t seem like they’ve worked out their relationship yet.

Even once you start marathoning, it’s OK if you need to separate them temporarily because you have to leave for a bit. It shouldn’t really set things back at all.

I wouldn’t change the space they are in at all until they seem bonded completely. Also, what do you mean by “she’s hardly using the litter box”? Is he guarding it and not letting her in? If so, take away the box and just put a pile of hay on the floor. Sometimes buns get territorial over the box and it can cause problems if you add it in too early in the process.

Sharing the litter box happily is actually a good metric to see if they are bonded. That plus cuddling, grooming, and just generally relaxed behavior. Bonded buns have no concept of “personal space” with each other.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Right now we are at 36 hours. Since no fighting I am going to sleep with them in the room again. I work at home and hope to be able to stay in at least another day or 2 but then will need to venture out.

Seems like they are stuck, but then I’ll see a small improvement but very very slow 🙂 The girl was pooping all over the closet and peeing near the box, sometimes getting in to go a little. The boy has not guarded it so that at least wasn’t the issue. This morning I changed the blanket on the floor and found a bigger box, and so far today she is using it! At one point they were in there together.

I think Elmer doesn’t know how to groom and she won’t give in and groom him. The ate their cecotropes next to each other and seem pretty comfortable, but Elmer is a little too persistent sometimes. Nothing escalates even without me intervening because luckily she isn’t a fighter and he gives up quickly 🙂 Today they slept on different sides of the room. I was hoping not to separate them anymore, but  good to know it shouldn’t set them back. They both chew on metal bars of the enclosure so trying to avoid that again.

I guess they both are slower in trusting. At least they run around a little together and seem to slowly get more comfortable. Sometimes she sniffs his bum and he does a tail shake.. I hope that is flirting and not annoyance. Anyway it’s kinda mixed signals and hope i’m doing the right thing keeping them in the same room now.

 

[Peanutthebunny]

they look so cute I hope you bond them and that there is no fighting

[DanaNM]

I’m guessing Elmer does know how to groom. 😉

It’s just about trust. The hierarchy process is an interesting one. They have to trust each other for one to decide they are OK with being submissive. It sounds like they will definitely get there since they aren’t having disagreements that escalate. If one bun always runs away and doesn’t turn back to fight when chased, that eventually convinces the chasing bun that they are not a threat and the trust builds. Sharing the litter box is a good sign.

Sometimes these long bonding sessions get boring for the buns, so giving them new (neutral) toys can help too.

You can always try a little smushed banana on their heads to “break the ice” with grooming.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I actually tried the banana in their first or second session, but Ruby was eating the fur off Elmer’s head to get it! I didn’t really want him going bald though he did seem to like it.

The last day and a half Elmer has done better grooming. He is a little stuck on her ears but that was good to see… also when he gets rough she will usually flinch vs running away, so I guess she is teaching him?  She still won’t return the favor. He does get feisty and try to hump her, but as usual she just hops away and he quickly gives up. He seems like he’ll accept being submissive (I feel bad and hope he gets more love soon).  They seem to be very near and follow each other most the time. She tries to cuddle but he likes a couple inches of distance for now.

They had lots of fun stuff in the room and even a natural fiber rug I bought for them to have plenty to chew, 🙂 The room technically wasn’t neutral, I didn’t really have anywhere so took a chance when letting them out of my most neutral place which was the closet. It didn’t seem to make a difference thankfully. I’ve went ahead and took a bigger chance and let them out of the master bedroom. Mostly because I have upstairs neighbors and the noises in there were really freaking them out. They’ve stayed together mostly since and gravitated back to the room they were being kept separate. They are acting the same in the rest of the place and actually seem more comfortable in “their” room… Ruby seems especially happy doing lots of binkys. Even now after 72 hours together they don’t seem bonded 100% but also have not fought and keep acting more comfortable. I won’t leave them unsupervised yet but able to sleep without them having issues. I think over time they will be more cuddly but I don’t think they will digress at this point. I’ll give them a good couple more days before leaving them alone at all. This has been a fun experience and neat to watch, especially after a terrible first failed attempt. I think this would be considered an easy bond (assuming they keep progressing), since the first time they “met” was just 3 weeks ago.

[DanaNM]

Sounds good, just be careful giving them too much space too quickly, especially if it’s not neutral. Scuffles can occur and set things back. You also want to be careful of them trying to reclaim their own spaces and staking out separate territories. She might not want to groom him back until he stops trying to mount her.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

So far, still good. It doesn’t appear they are trying to stake out any of the areas and still peaceful.  Maybe starting their dates in a different place then riding home together in the carrier gave them some kind of different mindset than a typical situation.  I’ve not really read about a situation exactly like this so I’m checking on them all the time… maybe I just got lucky, but not quite out of the woods yet. I was thinking the same thing, she may not want to groom him until he backs off the mounting.  Is there something I need to do for permission to upload photos? I tried but I don’t see that it worked.

[DanaNM]

The photo issue is being worked on and has to do with the site still being under construction. The way members have been able to get around it is to add photos to your profile, and then when you go to add media the photo should be available to insert into your post.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks! Here is a picture of them dozing today!

[DanaNM]

Awwwww cuties!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Louiethebunny]

what cuties!

[Susanne]

Yes they are!  I love them so much, and so happy to finally make Elmer happier. They had a first partial cuddle tonight 😍 they like to lay in the hay tray.

[Wick & Fable]

That winged eye though :O I have that exact shoe mat and one of my rabbits uses it as her bed, haha.

This looks like wonderful progress!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

That does look really good! And they are so cute together!

I love seeing all the different ways bonded pairs lay together. Endless combinations!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks! Yes those shoe mats are perfect for keeping hay! I have accumulated 3 of them now 🙂

I still don’t know if they are considered completely bonded, but it’s now been 5 full days and 2 with free roam. I have not seen any sign of the slightest scuffle (if it would even be considered that) since the first day and a half. Seems Elmer hasn’t quite warmed up but she follows him around and it’s very cute. They don’t really cuddle or groom much but lay close together and run around the place together at night. During the day they seem to sleep in separate places. They eat together a lot and have no issue eating from under the other if one is sitting on the piece they want. They are both using the same litter box.  I have been home all but maybe an hour for the last 5 days,  and I feel comfortable leaving them alone at this point. I’m so happy for them!

[DanaNM]

That all sounds great! Congrats!

If you notice they start to seem more distant don’t be afraid to restrict their space a bit (such as to one room or a pen).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Hi,  just dropping in to give an update! Elmer still doesn’t want to be cuddly but they are usually in close proximity. They have been getting along just fine and we are over 6 days together. It isn’t the typical bonded pair but with these they can live together while building up to it 🙂 

[DanaNM]

Thanks for the update! I love their set up. 🙂

Before deeming them fully bonded you do want to see a good amount of positive interactions (at least some grooming, even if one sided, and some cuddling), but it sounds like you are on the way. I’m very cautious because I had a pair a few years ago that was peaceful for 5 months but never cuddled or groomed really, then a really bad fight broke out suddenly. So you def want to see at least some cuddles!

But them being super relaxed around each other is a good sign too. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Thanks, I try and give them a good bunny life! Most the toys they don’t even use, their favorite thing is zoomies and the tunnels 🙂

Over the last 24 hours they seem to be closer… They are laying inches apart more often instead of across the room. If I pet them both together they’ll lay touching. Ruby definitely wants cuddles. She flopped right against him once and always is trying to lay as close as he’ll let her. I hope he warms up to her soon!

That would be so sad to see them fight after 5 months of peace 🙁 Did yours act similar to mine?

[Susanne]

Oh and I have caught Elmer grooming her ears a few times. It doesn’t last too long though.

[DanaNM]

Yours seem like they are on doing much better than mine were. That’s so cute that she flopped against him, that’s def a bonded bun thing. 🙂 Getting closer and closer is a good sign. 🙂  And even a little grooming is great.

I wrote about the whole saga with mine after it happened: https://binkybunny.com/forums/topic/bond-broken-a-cautionary-tale/

It was pretty heartbreaking. 🙁

I think the most important lesson was that I should have trusted my gut feeling about them. The level of comfort between them just wasn’t quite there even though they ticked a lot of the boxes (no scuffling, etc.).

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I read the thread, very heartbreaking 🙁  It does sound like “on paper” they were doing fine, but something was just a little off. That is a good example for people getting to this in- between stage that seems kind of rare but happens. Yours did sound less comfortable than mine appear to be, but good to understand the possibilities.

I got Elmer in February and never had a rabbit in my life, but I’ve spend soooo much time with him. Between working from home, Covid lockdown, and before that being stuck home with a broken rib, I’ve definitely spend more time observing him than would be typical in such a short time. I’ve also obsessively read about rabbits (which is why I wanted to get him a friend and didn’t adopt a bonded pair from the start). The first rabbit I got to bond with him was supposed to be a female but turned out to be a male (not fixed). I also tried with another male later (but at a person’s house that does bondings). Both of those lead to fights within 30 seconds. In between those I tried with another female. I had a bad feeling the entire time. She was really skittish too, like so much that I felt she may have been neglected at some point. She let me pet her, but also lunged towards me a couple times, once touching my finger with her teeth (not a bite). She was kind of aggressive with Elmer and reminds me of your example. She would nip and pull out fur and he didn’t like it.  I made the mistake of letting them in each others territory, and it was because during bonding she was too scared to move. The one big fight was pretty bad, luckily no injuries. It reminds me of how you said you thought JP needed a very long settling in period. They were doing the potty wars and she started jumping out of her pen, and I just didn’t have the preparations for it. I think they would have been very difficult as well even without the mistakes, but I unfortunately made things impossible.

For the current situation, there is definitely a gut feeling involved. Between that and learning Elmer’s behavior with multiple other tries (and 2 rounds of speed dating), I think I can read him well and understand his interactions better.  I kept saying he needs the most patient bun! The thing that stood out with Ruby was she has not once been aggressive at all and has been patient. I think that is the key for them. It feels important that nothing ever looked like a fight between them, and besides saying.. “no” when Elmer got a little nippy (he also put his chin on her and thumped a couple times early on), I didn’t have to intervene at all. With the other buns he didn’t even hear me and went into attack mode. You had mentioned a little food aggression and these 2 have always been fine to share. That said, I know this may have a slight risk since they aren’t all the way there, but since I’ve seen how comfortable they are with each other and 99% confident Elmer isn’t going to attack her, I think keeping them together will work… We are now a full week of being together!  So far today, the first part of the day they slept close, even touching a little for a while, then went to separate places. They were laying a couple inches apart when I checked them in the middle of the night last night.

[DanaNM]

Yes it does sound like you know your bunnies well, and that’s important and very helpful! It sounds like you had a rough few dates, glad you ended up with a better match.

Poor JP. Thankfully he was adopted by one of shelter volunteers (with a much quieter home too…) and he is doing really well. Still very skittish but has made a lot of progress. The consensus is that he just had a lot of trouble communicating. He refused to submit.. but also refused to exert dominance, so it was just a stalemate. Bertha was chill enough to allow it, for a while…

Anywho yours do sound like they are on the road to success, so good job! 🙂

 

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

Hi all! I don’t know if anyone would check this now but wanted to update just in case since my two seem a bit of an unusual bonded pair.   After those posts in July I’ve never had to separate Elmer and Ruby.  Ruby charges him sometimes while I’m getting their treats but he ignores her, and sometimes they fight over the last crumbs of the treats if one finishes first, but just pushing each other out of the way and never biting. They don’t however cuddle much and actually they cuddled more at the beginning. Elmer is very persistent about getting grooms so he seems to be dominant. She grooms him much more, he only gives her a few licks occasionally. She also humps his head almost daily. He seems to like it… it’s very odd but I let them be since it’s been 5 months now and it seems mutually enjoyed, haha. I feel like Ruby is still a little lonely since Elmer just isn’t as into her as she is him. She flops on or near him often and he gets up and leaves 🙁 Elmer seems to prefer me petting him than cuddling with her. They do follow each other from room to room though, so the dynamic is interesting and a little confusing. If I knew a third one could be as easy to bond as they were I’d get another bun in a heartbeat, but not ready to deal with fighting and a difficult time.

[DanaNM]

Thanks for the update! It does sound like an interesting relationship, but not too out of the ordinary. In bonded pairs it can be hard to tell who is dominant (sometimes I’m convinced they both think they are). It does sound like they are friends and enjoy each other’s company. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Susanne]

I agree, I believe mine both think they are dominate and it seems to get more level over time. I recently moved us all and they got some new furniture so seem really happy. Once I’m more settled I plan to start fostering buns too.

I attached recent pics and plan to keep in touch via the lounge probably on the site!

 

 

[DanaNM]

Awww look at the happy couple!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

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