Bonding Oreo and Blu – advice/support welcome :)

[Ali925]

I have decided to make a first attempt at bonding my two.  I have my reservations but I have to start sometime. 

Just a little info on my two:  Oreo – spayed female, almost a year old & Blu – neutered male 7 months old…housed in the same room/separate pens since late March…

First session – Aug 28, bathroom floor with section of a pen keeping them confined, approximately 10 minutes. 

Overall I guess it was not as negative as I had expected, although it wasn’t great  and I’m still so worried about this whole process…I don’t want anybuns getting hurt…

I did not do any stressing beforehand…we’ll use that tactic if we need it…I had one large litterbox with some hay in it so I could hopefully do some forced snuggling in it.. but watched to be sure neither claimed it.

They started out sort of ignoring each other, and gradually went to each other, nose to nose.  I pet their foreheads simultaneously to keep them calm.  They did well like that for a little bit…  Then they started moving around again, away from each other.  Then back nose to nose, I pet them both again…Oreo asked for a groom.  Blu denied..  I pet them both … They hopped around again away from each other, and I think at this point Oreo asked for a groom again and Blu groomed her face a little bit.  Not much, but the fact that he did it amazed me.  I gave them both some hay from the box to munch on and they did that separately.  Neither seemed overly scared, they were kind of just hopping around and then would go face to face and I would pet them both (to avoid any negative actions or biting,etc).  I can’t remember everything in order but I do know at one point Oreo stopped to groom herself (I believe a good sign since it shows that she was relaxed?)  and Blu flopped at one point too…not at the same time Oreo was grooming but I’m just highlighting a few things I remember.  

The session was going decent until I think Oreo went after Blu?  I ‘m not sure who or how it started it happened so fast.  But we had to separate them…we took Oreo out of the pen completely to separate them and stop the fight.  Now I was mad that I hadn’t ended the session a minute sooner…I know you should end on a positive note so we gave it a few minutes to allow them to calm down.  (and to calm myself down!!)  Although I was worried about putting them back together after that, I knew we had to (no one was hurt…).  We brought Oreo back in the pen and they did the same stuff as before, nose to nose (I pet them) and some hay munching…but we ended it quick before anything bad escalated again.  Unfortunately, when Oreo left the pen (we took them out one at a time – they both are not too keen on being moved around…so we’re slow about it) she went at the pen from the outside and tried to nip Blu through the pen.  And that was the end of our first session   

I guess I was happy because it wasn’t like all they did was fight…it wasn’t good when they were fighting, but they also existed in peace for a little bit.  How does this sound for a first encounter??  Of course I’m thinking very negative of the whole thing, but I think it could have been worse.

 

Since the session they seem to be completely fine in the presence of the other (their pens are in the same room…they can see one another all the time).  Any feedback or suggestions?  Do you think I need to stress them beforehand?  Or try the same thing again and remove the litterbox or not??  It didn’t seem to cause any problems but I know you aren’t supposed to give them anything to claim either…like I said I was trying to see if I could get them both in their to force snuggling but didn’t get to.

[Sarita]

In what manner did Oreo go after Blu? I think stressing them before is a good idea.

[Ali925]

Not sure, it was sort of out of nowhere…she just went after him and they started fighting. Blu was probably just defending himself…Oreo seems like she will be more of the problem in this. I guess if you mean how, she chased and nipped him I think. Now I’m scared to try again. And after we let her out of the pen she tried to nip him through the pen… Poor Blu was pretty upset afterwards, he even grunted at me and he NEVER does that

I wanted to do another session today…but of course I’m very hesitant now. Do you think this sounds really bad for a first meeting?

[Elrohwen]

From what you described, the session actually seems very very good – you had eating together, grooming (of self, and each other) and flopping, all in a 10 min period! Really, that’s fantastic. Without being able to see the fight on video, I would guess that it was more of a chase/scuffle than an actual fight. Bunnies can chase each other and pull out fur, but it’s not the same thing as going for the jugular with the intent to draw blood, if that makes sense. One is like a boxing match, the other can be a fight to the death. I think your guys were just having a little scuffle, which is totally normal – I get this impression because all of the other signs were so positive.

I would definitely try stressing them next time – both at the beginning and during the session. If they start another scuffle, I would stress them, then reintroduce them to the space. They will learn that fighting leads to stress sessions, while being calm leads to going home to their own pens. If you separate them after a scuffle, it only teaches them that they can get what they want by fighting. It’s scary the first couple times, and I definitely separated my two the first time or two that Hannah jumped on Otto and humped him, or Otto turned on Hannah, but I realized that separating them wasn’t helping, so I moved them quickly into a laundry basket and shook them up. At least if you put them in laundry basket for stressing, you are back in control of the situation – knowing that you have that in your back pocket will calm you down, because you’ll know that you can handle any situation by sticking them in the basket and shaking them.

[Ali925]

Thanks Elrohwen…you make me feel SO much better

I’m just nervous that they’ll fight again and hurt each other if I’m not quick enough to intervene. I think I may switch them to the bathtub and then I can be close enough to monitor them, but I’m not sitting with them…I feel like I’m in their way and get worried when they sneak behind me too quick for me to see what they’re doing…

I hope you’re right about the fighting. I would think if they were fighting to really inflict pain they would have fought more and sooner? And unfortunately my sweet Oreo can have attitude (as all females do I assume…) so I think she went after Blu for whatever silly reason I don’t know. I think I’ll remove the litterbox for now but I’ll give them some hay to eat again because that seemed to be a good distraction.

What do you suggest for stressing? My washer/dryer is a front-loading type, so I can’t use that. I could try your method of shaking up the laundry basket? Did you just put them in one at a time and then shake them in the air or walk around the house or something? And how long do you stress for??

Thanks so much…I appreciate all the support I can get

[Elrohwen]

I put them both in the laundry basket at once and shook them around. I intended to do it for a few minutes, but that gets tiring (the best way to do it for longer periods is to sit on the toilet and bounce it on your knees). After doing it a few times, I realized that I got the same results by doing it for just 30 seconds or so without even taking them out of the bathroom. They definitely have to go in together, as this teaches them that they can be together in a stressful situation and turn to one another for comfort. During my sessions, Hannah would get very fired up (usually at the beginning and again around the 15min mark) and humpy and just pushy in general. I used the basket to snap her out of it and give me some control of the situation. I probably could’ve let them just work it out, but I was nervous and using the basket made me feel better. As things progressed, I was able to read them better and decide when it was necessary to use the basket, and when I could just let them work it out on their own.

One thing about fighting – if they’re really fighting to draw blood, they’ll get in a ball and roll around – it will be very hard to separate them. I haven’t seen bunnies do this in person, but my gerbils have done this and it’s very violent. when it’s a scuffle, both usually keep all four feet on the ground for the most part, and just use teeth to nip each other and pull out fur. They can still circle and go pretty fast, but it’s not the same as attaching themselves at the neck with teeth.

[Beka27]

That sessions sounds wonderful. The most important thing at this point is that you do not stop.

[Ali925]

Session 2 – August 29 (morning)

I used the bathtub this time and it seemed like a better environment…I just have to be on guard for Oreo because she tried jumping out a few times..she got close too (any tips on this one?)

I also stressed them first with the laundry basket shake…they both seemed pretty unhappy about it, but I know that’s expected. I have a hard time getting them into it quickly beforehand so I ended up bringing them one at a time to the tub and then put them the basket in after I brought the second bun in. First off, any advice on this either? I feel like I’m manhandling them but if I’m not quick about it, I won’t get them to cooperate at all…Oreo was hiding in her cottage because she knew I was coming to get her for a session. I had to move the cottage and quickly scoop her up. I definitely feel like they both hate me now!! but I know it’s for their own good.

Okay so the session was only about 10 min again since I’m trying to take it slow and get used to the whole thing. There was a lot of ignoring and sitting and staring at us (they looked like twins haha)…a few attempts to ask for a groom and neither obliged. They did the same as last time, nose to nose stance and I pet them. I think Blu is afraid of Oreo but wants to interact with her, so I can tell Oreo is going to make this hard. Anyhow, there was a bit of a scuffle like last time, so I quickly put them in the basket and shook them up again and returned them to the tub. They sat there staring again..Blu munched on some hay after some time and eventually flopped on one end of the tub. Oreo just sat there all nervous and wouldn’t touch the hay … I think she groomed herself at one point too, and there may have been another short scuffle but I intervened again and pet heads… I have to learn to sit back and let them figure it out right? As long as it doesn’t last long? I keep intervening so no one gets hurt, but will it keep happening until one is satisfied? I waited for them both to be calm again and they sat and ignored each other again … I ended it soon after that to avoid any negative ending…

I felt a little ambitious so I decided to attempt a second session in the evening…

Session 3 – August 29 (evening)

We used the same tactic of stressing in the laundry basket…but only stressed at the beginning.

We added parsley to the tub as well as hay, as it was almost dinner time we thought it might be enticing…

It pretty much went the same way as the morning session, lasting around 10 min. There was a lot of ignoring, a small scuffle and an almost groom.. Blu started to groom Oreo sort of and then it kind of turned into a scuffle…Not sure what happened there. Both asked the other for grooms and neither obliged. Both tried escaping from the tub, both failed lol. Blu my laid back boy flopped at one point and grabbed some parsley to munch on while in the laying position lol, he’s so funny. Oreo just sat there staring at us begging for it to end! Although she did eat some hay this time… They sort of stayed on their own side of the tub for a lot of it. They both just still seem very nervous about the whole thing. But I am trying to be optimistic, as it’s only the second day.

I have some video from the first session and will try to upload some clips if any are decent (hubby was in charge)…

Just a side note, my husband will be traveling for a few days and I don’t want to skip the bonding but I’m so nervous to try alone… Although he says he didn’t even do anything to help me… But I guess I just feel more at ease knowing he’s there if I need a second hand? Have you guys done the bonding solo? I did all of the handling, etc. I am just a little nervous not having a backup if something happens…

Thanks!

[Ali925]

Session 4 – August 30 (evening) – bathtub, 20 minutes   Sorry no video again (so my descriptions are super lengthy, I don’t know how else to do it), but I was alone for this one…I needed my hands!!

 

I didn’t stress beforehand because getting them to the bathtub was stressful enough for all of us!  I had the basket there in case I needed to do any.  

There was a lot of the same behaviors.  Scared, staring at me.  For the most part they stayed on separate ends of the tub sitting still.  If one made a move sometimes the other would jump and that seems to cause the few scuffles… Blu munched on hay for a while and Oreo was too nervous to eat.  Both requested grooms, both denied.  This happened a couple times, but Blu seemed like he was actually going to groom Oreo a few times but I think she made him so nervous he was afraid to do it.  (I would pet their heads instead, even wet their heads a little)  He would put his face so close to the side of her face and then would get too scared or make her jump or something…leading to a short scuffle.  Their scuffles are mostly the same:  face to face and then they both hop at the same time, while staring at each other, or a quick nip on the side (from both of them) and then they stop … and they hold still while cheek to cheek in opposite directions kinda testing each other out?  Sorry I know a video would be so much easier… The first scuffle was a few minutes in and I used a spray bottle this time…had to squirt a few times and they both froze and stopped.  I had to do this one more time towards the end of the session too, but it seemed to end much quicker.  I hope this is a sign that their fights will lessen? I didn’t have to physically pull them apart any of the times…is that good i guess?

Other highlights, Oreo groomed herself at one point, Blu happily munched on hay.  I fed them both two or three pellets and they ate them…And finally in the last 5 minutes of the session Oreo gave in and started eating hay too.  She will never eat when she’s nervous…so she wasn’t touching the hay until that point   I didn’t want to push my luck so I ended it while they were eating hay…

 

After the sessions they still seem tolerant of each other, they spend some time hanging by the baby gate that separates them during free roam time and they sorta just look at each other or try sniffing through the gate bars.  I watch them closely, but haven’t noticed anything aggressive.  They don’t have to see each other if they don’t want to, so I’m taking this as a positive.  Lastly, my biggest obstacle tonight was getting them to the tub.  Bunnies are just too smart.  They both were hiding from me, so I had some difficulty getting them.  I really hope they just get used to it a little so I don’t have to work so hard to get them out… 

 

Any feedback would be great….  Is it ok to skip the stressing or do you think they’ll keep having fights if I don’t?  Do the fights sound worrisome or am I doing okay??  Thanks in advance…

[Elrohwen]

I did stressing on an as needed basis – as long as they were good, I didn’t stress. If they were bad, I did it. Worked for me. Some people are more consistent with it, but some buns also fight more consistently than mine did. There’s really no right or wrong way, so just trust your gut.

I did all of the bonding myself while unemployed and DH was at work, so it’s totally do-able! I did a lot of man-handling (you get in this carrier, you get into the tub, you get into the basket now, etc). Actually, by the end of a week Otto was far better at being picked up than he’s ever been (and he’s still pretty good). I found mine got used to it pretty fast and didn’t hide from me like I expected (though they weren’t quite jumping into the carriers either).

Your bonding sessions sound really good – everything is mostly calm so far. I intervened a lot initially I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong – if it makes you feel better to intervene, then do it. It will make you calmer. It certainly made me calmer. More experienced bonders can let them work it out, but you need to do that at the level you feel comfortable with. As you trust them more you’ll let them work things out more on their own. They’ll bond either way, so don’t worry that you’re setting them back.

[Ali925]

Thanks Elrohwen, you make me feel a lot more confident I guess I’d prefer to not stress them, but if they keep having fights I will have to do it. I wish mine didn’t hide from me! I have to trick them into it and I’m going to run out of tricks… They both hate being handled, but Oreo is getting better…I can actually carry her back to her pen. But she’ll fight me if I try to take her out of her pen…weird bun. Blu still hates being lifted any way shape or form and won’t give in just yet. And he’s half Oreo’s size! He’s getting better with being pet so hopefully this comes with time too.

[Elrohwen]

My bunnies both hated being held – after bonding Otto will let us pick him up about half the time (if we sneak up and do it when he’s not expecting), but Hannah never lets anyone pick her up (even the vet techs struggle with her). Otto was a terror before bonding, so it made him more confident with being picked up in general. Still, I never picked them up to get them to the bathroom – I always used carriers. I just set the carriers in their pens and shoved them in. I usually let Hannah come out of hers on her own, then picked Otto up out of his, as he got better about being picked up and carried the 2ft from carrier to tub. It would’ve been much more stressful if I hadn’t used the carriers.

[Author]

Messages