Bonding Mizu and Umi to Koori

[Maria]

Hey guys I posted last year and got some great help! I’vve had a great year with Mizu and Umi but when I saw a 3 and a half month old Lionhair with no home I had to take her. I wasn’t expecting them to be friends right away but I guess I wasn’t expecting them to be so agressive. Koori has her own cage in my bedroom and Mizu and Umi are in their old cage in the living room. They usually have free reign of the house so I let them out last night and they attack the bars to Koori’s cage. I’ve had 2 dates so far at the bottom of the shower and all 3 bunnies are tense and lunging and growling. Now my question is, what can I do to make this go more smoothly? Stop them seeing each other apart from the dates? Also Mizu is getting a little angry with Umi as well and they have been bonded for over a year. Any ideas? Thanks!

[Monkeybun]

Is Koori spayed? I’m guessing at 3.5 months she is not. That could be the reason! Wait until she is spayed to do any more binding… females can get quite aggressive all doped up on teenage hormones. Then do gradual introductions, don’t let the other 2 attack her cage. Put another barrier around it, so theres a few inches of space between at the minimum.

[Maria]

Great thanks Monkeybun. The most aggressive bun is Mizu though and she is spayed. I think Koori does want to be friends. She put her head under Mizu’s for a lick. Does that mean she wants to be top bun? I don’t think she got a chance with Mizu around. Koori is going to the vet on Thursday but I know from last time that he doesn’t like spaying them ’til their 6 months as it’s quite difficult. Will it make it worse if I let Koori have a run round the flat and Mizu and Umi can smell her? I could keep them in the living room and Koori in my bedroom. They would still have plently of room to exercise.

[Monkeybun]

I’d keep them apart for now, until she is old enough to be spayed. Having Koori in the bedroom is a good idea, if you don’t mind being woken up by bunny play

Mizu is annoyed another girl bun is wanting to be top bunny it sounds like. Koori’s lowering her head before Mizu is a definite dominant behavior, she is demanding to be groomed.

When you do go to bind them, do 2 bunnies at a time, not all 3 together. the bonded pair will likely gang up on poor Koori. So doing separate sessions with Mizu and Umi would be a good idea

[Maria]

I’ve put Koori in the living room on top of the table, Umi and Mizu’s cage is under the table! I’m hoping that if they smell each other they will get used to each other. Now this is also to stop bunny mess in my bedroom. My question is, Mizu and Umi have free reign of the house but can’t get onto the table to bite the bars to Koori’s cage. Now, should Koori exercise in the living room once I put the other 2 away or should I put her in my bedroom. I’m worrying that Koori will put her scent around and that it will upset Mizu and Umi even more. If I only let her out in the bedroom, I can stop the other two from going in there. Sorry for keep asking questions.

[Monkeybun]

We love questions here

That one I’m not sure about. My bunnies always shared play space, at different times. So they just got used to the scent I suppose.

[Maria]

Yes just to update, I let Koori out in the living room and Mizu went mad! She lunged at the bars and then growled at Umi and lunged at her. There’s no worries for Umi at the moment as she just jumps away and then they groom each other a minute later. At the moment Mizu can’t stand seeing Koori in her territory. So perservere with Koori playing in the living room or start exercising her in the bedroom. I can also move her back in the bedroom if people thinks thats a better idea, but Umi and Mizu either don’t know Koori’s above them or don’t care as long as she’s in her cage! It’s only a issue when Koori’s out. I could put a blanket over their cage when Koori comes out if people thinks that will help.

[Monkeybun]

Blocking the view of her when she is out will help for sure.

[Maria]

Went to the vets today and had my mum put them together on the way there. Mizu and Umi completely ignored her but Koori was very interested and kept shoving her head under their noses. They just ignored it! Progress maybe? Their going back to the vets in two weeks so I might do it again. They will spay her in October.

[Deleted User]

Trips to the vet together is an excellent strategy, since you can’t expect too much from them in terms of real bonding till after the spay.

[Maria]

Thanks Petzy. No I don’t have any expectations yet. They are all fine with cages and time out of the cage until October. Mizu and Umi used to be more or less free range but seem to be getting used to less time out of their cage.

One question I have is a few behaviours I’ve seen. Mizu and Umi started out by attacking the bars to Koori’s cage as I’ve already mentioned so I watched them closely to stop this. Now, they lay down by the bars of Koori’s cage. They sometimes sniff each other through the bars and I watch closely as they still sometimes nip at each other but this is rare now. Is it a good sign that they are laying by her cage? I still have to cover up their cage when Koori runs around as they (mainly Mizu) get aggressive when they see her run around!
Lastly I saw Mizu humping Umi for the first time. Very strange. She did this right near Koori’s cage, I don’t know if this has anything to do with it. It was backwards humping as well. Mizu and Umi have been spayed and bonded for over a year but it’s safe to say they were a little upset when Koori joined our family. Mizu chases Umi occasionally and Umi usually runs but sometimes chases back. I usually clap my hands and say no and they run away from me and sit together and groom each other. I saw them fight last year before they were spayed and thought they wanted to kill each other. I don’t feel like that when I’m seeing them fight now
My questions are:
Is it good that Mizu and Umi are sitting by Koori’s cage?
Why did Mizu hump Umi?
Should I keep intervening between Mizu and Umi?
Do you think that Mizu and Umi are losing their bond?
Thanks for any help and advice you can give me.

[Maria]

Hello again guys. Right I’ve been looking at others experiences of bonding trios and so I decided to bond Mizu to Koori. I had an incident a week after Koori’s spay that she got out of her cage to where the other two were whilst I was at work and they all had a huge fight. I took her to the vets but she was ok.
I have been bonding them in the bottom of my shower cubicle and it started off with lunging and circling. I still get this from them slightly after a week of daily hourly sessions, usually when I first put them together. Mizu seems very scared of Koori and lunges if Koori makes any sudden moves. It has improved greatly however and I am now happy to let them go nose to nose as this doesn’t always end in a fight anymore. I have also seen self grooming near each other and Mizu has layed down when Koori is a little further away.
We seem to be at a stumbling block because Mizu won’t let Koori approach her without getting scared and either running off or lunging.

I then decided yesterday to start on Koori and Umi as that dynanic is very different, Koori is petrified of Umi, I’m guessing left over from their fight! Now again I used the shower. They go straight for each other, I have the bites on my hands to prove it!! I spray them and the separate and then Koori lays there panting and Umi sits there with her ears forward. Umi looks at me and then tries to bite Koori’s underside, I spray her again. This happens a few times, Koori tries to get away from the ‘horrible bunny’ but I put her back. Umi finally gives up and grooms herself but is ever watchful of Koori moving. I’ve done 2 15min sessions with them so far. The last one ended with them both self-grooming so I ended it there.

Any ideas where to go next? I’ve been at it a week so far. I was going to use the car but I’m snowed in at the moment and its a little cold to be sitting in the car anyway without the engine running. (don’t want to keep the engine running for a long time!).

I think we are progressing well but Mizu is scared of Koori and Koori is scared of Umi! This is funny as out of Mizu and Umi, it’s Mizu that is slightly more dominant, though they do see themselves as equal really! I can video a session if that helps but I’m not sure how to post it.

[Karla]

Hi Maria. I usually post videos by uploading them to youtube and then paste the “embed film”-code here.

I know it is hard work and it is no fun bonding bunnes who clearly do not appreciate our efforts You are definitely on the right track when you have them grooming near each other, and Mizu has even layed down near Koori. Keep up the sessions like that as they are obviously working.

I wouldn’t worry so much about all this dominance. To me it doesn’t make sense that bunnies establish hierarchies by grooming each other, and I know there is even various beliefs on who is the dominant if that is the case (the groomer, or the one being groomed). Wouldn’t it be sad if bunnies were one of the few mammals that can not display affection but only groom each other to establish the hiearchy? To me, it is a way of friendly greeting for strange bunnies to do so. Well, sort of off topic, but I saw your questions in previous posts. Don’t worry about it.

Once you feel they are ready for it, you can move them a bit closer to each other and put some mashed banana on their forehead and ears and see if that will make them groom each other.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Karla on 12/03/2010 04:11 AM

 Wouldn’t it be sad if bunnies were one of the few mammals that can not display affection but only groom each other to establish the hiearchy? To me, it is a way of friendly greeting for strange bunnies to do so.

This is very well said and I agree. I have wondered if the grooming is not also a way of initiating and maintaining a rabbit’s belonging. By grooming some scent is transferred between the rabbits after all.

[Maria]

 

Thanks for that Karla and Petzy. It always seemed odd with my pair as they both groom each other with nobunny showing much more dominance than the other.

Ok I’ve done some videos but found it difficult as they took advantage of my distraction!!

The first is the initial intro in session 3 of Umi and Koori.

<param name="movie" v="" http://www.youtube.com="&quot; value="http://www.youtube&#8230;.ram> name=” _fcksavedurl=” >http://www.youtube&#8230;.ram> name=”allowFullScreen” value=”true”>
<embed v="" http://www.youtube.com="&quot; src="http://www.youtube.com/v/82AzeyED4z…p;hl=en_GB&#8221; _fcksavedurl=”>http://www.youtube.com/v/82AzeyED4z…p;hl=en_GB&#8221; type=”application/x-shockwave-flash” allowscriptaccess=”always” allowfullscreen=”true” width=”480″ height=”385″>

I separated them and then videoed them again.

<param name="movie" v="" http://www.youtube.com="&quot; value="http://www.youtube&#8230;.ram> name=” _fcksavedurl=” >http://www.youtube&#8230;.ram> name=”allowFullScreen” value=”true”>
<embed v="" http://www.youtube.com="&quot; src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yDCZVwfYtL…p;hl=en_GB&#8221; _fcksavedurl=”>http://www.youtube.com/v/yDCZVwfYtL…p;hl=en_GB&#8221; type=”application/x-shockwave-flash” allowscriptaccess=”always” allowfullscreen=”true” width=”480″ height=”385″>

This is Mizu and Koori session 9. This is a little more fraught than usual, I think Koori was spooked because of her session with Umi a little while before.

<param name="movie" v="" http://www.youtube.com="&quot; value="http://www.youtube&#8230;.ram> name=” _fcksavedurl=” >http://www.youtube&#8230;.ram> name=”allowFullScreen” value=”true”>
<embed v="" http://www.youtube.com="&quot; src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mhFEBGqYkj…p;hl=en_GB&#8221; _fcksavedurl=”>http://www.youtube.com/v/mhFEBGqYkj…p;hl=en_GB&#8221; type=”application/x-shockwave-flash” allowscriptaccess=”always” allowfullscreen=”true” width=”480″ height=”385″>

Any ideas? Sorry if the videos don’t work, I’m not sure if I’ve done it right.

 

Edit – hmm have no idea how to fix it!! Here’s a link to my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/miam100

[Deleted User]

I went in your channel to see the videos. If they continue on with sitting motionless, you might like to  scoop them into a basket together, any open container will do, and pet them to do some scent transfer. As of now, they are uncomfortable, on guard, and sizing each other up from a distance. If you can familiarize them some more with the pettings/scent transfers you may be able to break the ice up for them.

 

[Maria]

Ok I made a nic cube to put them in and shook it a bit. I couldn’t video it as a couldn’t take my hands off Umi and Koori, if I did they would attack each other. I tried shaking the cube but they went for each other. I pulled Umi out in the end, with Koori attached to her hindquarters!! No injuries yet, just loss off hair. I tried again and kept my hands between them, stroking them as suggested. Koori started attacking my hand!! She’s usually the friendliest of bunnies, always wanting strokes!!
I think this method will work with Mizu and Koori as they are just lacking some trust of each other but Umi and Koori really seem to hate each other. Shall I keep trying with this method and just keep my hands in between them. I have had them on my lap without fighting but I’m not sure of the benefits of this method as they are scared at being restrained on my lap so thats why they don’t care about the other bunny. I really need a stress method that means I can keep my hands near them to separate them. Any suggestions? Thanks for all your help so far.

[Deleted User]

Umi and Koori may do well on car rides to start their bonding but you would need a driver. Are they both females? They will all feel threatened in their territory (your place) by one another. The box sessions can work if you can get them to quit attacking each other in the box. Umi and Koori may need sessions outside their zone first, so I would go with car rides where you would use the same box or basket. It really peeves the rabbits when they first find themselves stuck in a small space with the other, especially since they fought freely in your absence that time. The stage you are in is very volatile and it is crucial that there will be no repeat fights. As a hands-free stressor, you could try attaching the basket so that it can rock back and forth. You would need some rope and a coat rack or something to suspend the basket from.

[Maria]

Hey guys. Update on todays session with Umi and Koori. The snow has finally melted and its a bit warmer so I took them outside to the car. I didn’t drive it anywhere but just put them on the backseat together. To show you how much agression there still is, I tried putting them both in a box to take them outside and they immedietly tried to bite each other. Anyway once on the backseat I squished myself on the floor (very comfy!) Koori settled down when I petted her and Umi had a few strokes and then climbed onto my shoulder! She sat there a while. We sat like this for 20mins and Koori started purring!! Then Umi hopped down and started nosing around. Koori stayed where she was and didn’t seem to care. Umi started to approach Koori and and let her but kept my hand in between. She put her mouth right in Koori’s fur and I don’t know if she was going to bite or lick Koori but she changed her mind and Koori didn’t react anyway.
Progress maybe? I kept my hand next to them the whole time, either stroking them or in between their heads, will this affect progress or hinder it in any way or is it ok to continue this until I know they won’t bite?

[Deleted User]

That’s great. A very good session! It looks like the car as a space is a good spot for your sessions. Definitely keep your hands near but wear gloves. It will not hinder their progress. Over time you will be able to let up on the control and allow them to sort things out more on their own, but not YET. I would have those car meetings as often as you can fit them into your days for a whole week at least.

[Maria]

Hello guys and happy holidays!! I took some time off bonding over xmas but we are back on it now. Now have spent a long time with Umi and Koori in the car and as I said before it seemed to calm them down. They were awful before as you can see from the previous video.

Now today I went back into the bathroom as we weren’t progressing any further in the car. First I did Umi and Koori, they hopped around and chinned things, they approached each other but I kept my hand between their noses, they would have nipped each other but it wasn’t hard to keep them separated.

Then I did Koori and Mizu. Mizu found a corner and was breathing heavily. Koori hopped round confidently, chinned things and mostly ignored Mizu. She then approached Mizu and Mizu pounced but I put my hand between them and Mizu hod behind me.

Now I then brought Umi back in and the changes were very interesting, remember that as a pair Mizu is more dominant but she is much less confident near Koori than Umi is!!
Umi imedietly flopped on the floor and Mizu and Koori approached each other. I kept my hand in between and they tried to nip each other but gave up.
Mizu nudged Umi’s bottom a few times and each time Umi hopped away and flopped again. In the end she found the corner behind the toilet and flopped there. She completely ignored Koori and showed no interest in anything going on.

Each session lasted 15-20mins. I had no trouble keeping bunnies separate and no injuries occured, and my hands were not even scratched. It’s much better than last time in the bathroom as you can see from previous videos where the aggression was more than I could stop.

But my hand did prevent fights from starting. What do people think about me doing this with all three togther. It’s just my bonded pair behave so differently apart from each other. What do people think my next step should be. We are progressing but I wouldn’t trust them without me hand firmly between their noses.

Has anyone else seen this drastic difference in behaviour?

[Deleted User]

Adding another rabbit can change an established rabbit’s behavior hugely. This is why adding rabbits to a bonded pair can be a real gamble. If you can manage the three you can do trio sessions. Sometimes rabbits hold back when confronted with a bonded pair and fights don”t happen until much later. you can always go back to paired sessions if the rabbits do not progress in the trio meets. If the aggression was low, you might be able to get them bonded without pairing them up again. It is really hard to predict. In my experience, there comes a point where you have to do group sessions but if you do them too early, you could end up with a trio fight. So watch closely for any signs. I would try to establish a bonding routine so they know what to expect: have them meet in one location where they did best every time, and provide only hay and water in at least two locations, no litterboxes, no treats, nothing to covet. Just three rabbits in one neutral zone with you supervising. Then start drawing out the sessions until you get more interactions and more time spent together. At any time that they scuffle, always always follow up with a forced snuggle on your lap or in a small container.

[Maria]

Thanks Petzy. I’ve done another session of an hour today. They mainly stayed on either side of the bathroom, Mizu and Umi on one side and Koori on the other. They did approach each other but I kept my hand between them as I’m pretty confident that Mizu and Umi would bite Koori!! They are pretty easy to discourage. Umi then loafed around and Koori flopped right next Mizu!!! Mizu hated that but I kept my hand between her so that she couldn’t bite Koori.
Now I can see progress. Flopping is good isn’t it and there was lots of grooming Koori of herself and Mizu and Umi self and each other.
I know I’ve asked this before but if I know they will bite, do I let them or still keep my hand there? I’ve tried grooming them to transfer scent but I am trying to not pet Koori in the group sessions as she is much happier with me than the other two buns. I also don’t think they would be ready to lick banana either. Shall I just carry on with what I’m doing and put my hand in the way to prevent nips? Thanks for all the advice and support.

[Deleted User]

If you see a bite coming, block it to prevent it from happening. I would carry on like you have but try to replace blocking the bites physically with using a startling sound instead. Make the sound every time you block a bite, such as a hissing sound. Some rabbits react accordingly to this conditioning and back off at the sound you make. If the bites get nastier (do you see gaping jaws?) you might want to go back to paired sessions between the biters and add a stressor such as a ride in a basket on top of the running washing machine. if the bites are just nips, you might try to see if the rabbits can sort it out amongst themselves, if one backs down. If yes, shield the buny who backs down but as little as necessary, just enough.

[Author]

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