Bonding Journal – BONDED!!!!!!

[Nutmeg]

Hello! Ok, so instead of asking many questions in different posts as this bonding journey progresses, I thought I would just do one post Journal to ask as I go  
This first post will be a bit long… so if you don’t want to read about the pre-bonding then feel free to skip ahead haha

Back story – Hubby surprised me with Penny and Rupert, at 12 weeks and 8 weeks old respectively in Feburary. They are both Dutch Dwarf Mix. 
Penny has more Dutch and is bigger than Rupert who has more Dwarf. 
Pre-bonding: 
1. The same day he brought them home I went and got another cage to separate them. 
2. They shared a common play area (one at a time obviously) but could always see and smell each other. 
3. Rupert was bad at marking his territory, Penny never did

4. They were Spayed and Neutered over a month ago (July 11th)  
5. 1 week after I started swapping full cages (I was swapping items all along) and they already share a litter box when out in the play area for the individual play time. So that litter box and play area has always smelled like both of them.
** When swapping cages there has been no issues and neither has cared that the other was in their cage. 
6. Rupert has stopped humping the stuffed bunny that I move between the two of them for them to get used to each others scents on something else that doesn’t react negatively to them. 
7. ** For the entire time I’ve had them (from time to time) but fully for the last 3 weeks they have had 100% Supervised access to each other through the cage bars when I am there to sit and give them my full attention. There has been ZERO aggression.. When Penny is out she sniffs at Rupert and then goes about her way for play time, then randomly goes up to sniff again. 
When Rupert is out he grooms Penny through the cage bars. 
8. They mimic each other with eating, grooming and laying around (They aren’t huge floppers unless its sleeping time during the day) 

TIME TO START FORMAL DATES TOGETHER: 
Concerns were: Food Aggression, Excessive Humping from Rupert which could lead to a fight. 

Date one: Neuteral Territory where neither have been… on the area rug in the living room – Total time was 20 minutes. 
1. Found out quickly that unlike my last bunny they have no problem going on to the linoleum flooring – they just move slower lol So that made keeping them both on the large area rug impossible
2. They started off by ignoring each other and exploring with some hop by sniffs (which was great as I expected Rupert to go right for the humping) 
3. Put down a big plate of veggies and their Fav. Hay (that is WAY more expensive up here so they get it as a treat hay) and there was ZERO Food Aggression – YAY. Penny even stole some veggie out of Ruperts mouth and he didn’t care at all. 
4. Back to exploring once the best bits were eaten – things are going GREAT…. 

5. *** UNTIL….. Rupert goes to Hump Penny’s Face, instant removal… Then Rupert goes to hump Penny from behind, which I allow… Penny goes to try and run away and he chases, which I stop after a few hops in case he would have stopped on his own. A few minutes later he goes to try and hump her again… she runs away and he lets her… ok great! Progress lol This happens a few more times.. he tries, she runs away, he lets her…. 
6. *** And THEN…. Rupert puts his head down under her to request grooms… she responds by trying to hump his face  Instant removed her so she goes to hump him from behind… he hunkers down, obviously confused lol… she does it for a few seconds and then hops away.
He goes up to her a bit later to request grooms and she humps him (from behind again) again he takes it, it doesn’t last long and she hops away. 
A little while later when he was hopping by her to explore she goes to hump his butt again, but this time he tried to run away… she chased him, again which I stopped after it looked like it turn in to a full chase. They continued to hope around, explore and groom themselves.
7. Put some more veggies down which they sat side by side and ate while I petted them both… ended it there. 

Second Date – Last Night – Again about 20 minutes… Same neutral carpet area by tv. 

1. I spent most of it trying to corall them back from un-bunny proofed areas (they are now faster on the linoleum floor) I’m going to have to find away to block off a section for tonight. 
2. Again, lots of exploring and ignoring… And eating some food together. 
3. Rupert didn’t really try to hump Penny…. 
4. ****** UNTIL… Penny tried to hump him when he put is head under her head to request grooms (no face humping, just hoped around him to behind) as soon as she tried to hump him, as he already had his head turning around to follow her he then tried to hump her… this turned quickly into them circling each – other to try to get behind the other – As I was worried this would turn in to a tornado (or as my hubby called it, a FUR-Nado) I quickly got between them, got a bit of a nip from Rupert, but nothing that even left a mark… After a grunt from Rupert they both went back to exploring and grooming themselves. 
5. There was a few butt hump attempts from both with running away from both, but no chasing when the other would run away.
6. Decided to end on them eating their favorite thing – this time Pellets – so I tossed down a small amount of pellets (so it wasn’t out of a shared bowl)  which they happily ate side by side with me petting them… no food aggression, which I had been worried about – especially with pellets. 

OK That is the end of my LONGGggggg Post. They wont be as long next time hahaha 

Any tips or tricks for tonight? Anything for me to change or do differently?? 
THANKS GUYS!!! SO excited to be able to eventually remove the 2nd cage and give them 24/7 access to their play land. 

[Nutmeg]

While I wait to get some experienced bonders thoughts on how *I’m* doing, along with the bunnies, I will keep updating

Date 3 last night – just over 30minutes – Same nuteral area – **This time I fenced off around the carpet to stop them from running off in different directions all over the rest of the house lol. So other than jumping up on the couch they have a 6 foot by 4 foot area for bonding.

1. Rupert went right for the veggies/hay while Penny explored the fence line – clearly bothered that she couldn’t get through it lol
2. Penny finally came and ate.
3. They both groomed themselves and continued to explore and ignore
4. Rupert tried to hump Penny – Penny ran away – Rupert followed for a few feet and stopped chasing on his own.
5. Back to exploring and ignoring
6. Rupert put his head down under Penny to request grooms… so Penny tried to hump Rupert instead – Rupert ran away and Penn chased, ended up having to put my hand in front of Penny which snapped her out of chasing and she went back to exploring.

7. *** First more positive sign… Rupert and Penny both put there heads down to request grooming from each other (Penny hasn’t asked to be groomed yet) And they are at an impasse with neither giving in. So as they are facing each other I reach over and using my thumb and pointer finger start rubbing the tops of both of their heads for about 2 minutes.
Once I felt them fully relax I stopped to see what would happen and after a few seconds Rupert got up and started GROOMING PENNYs head!!
After a bit he stopped and groomed himself and she hopped off.

8. Back to ignoring and exploring and munching on hay… and then they were kind of passing eachother and stopped with his head by her butt and her head by his butt… and they both kind of just stood there, so I started using a couple of fingers to pet Ruperts side where Penny’s face was… she either groomed him a bit or was just smelling him… I couldn’t really see. But then he flopped down and then SHE Flopped down… so they were curled together, but still butt to head.
So I took turns petting them both… so I would pet Penny’s head and Rupert’s side where her head was… and then the reverse, his head and her side.

Again I did this for a bit and then stopped to see what would happen. Penny ended up getting up and hopping away, Rupert followed and I could tell he was going to try to hump her, so wanting to end on a super good note I put out some pellets for them to share, which again went well, and then put them away for the night.

So still aways to go, but going better already. ANY TIPS or Suggestions??

[Sirius&Luna]

First thing I was going to say was try a much smaller area, but I see you did that for date 3. I still think you could try a smaller space though, where they can’t chase, if chasing continues to be a problem.

I would also personally start intervening and petting more, just to get them used to interacting with each other positively to begin with. Otherwise, it sounds like its mostly going well – just keep increasing time and keep intervening to stop the chasing.

[Asriel and Bombur]

Your sessions sound very similar to how A&B’s first few sessions went. Overall I counted them as good, especially with the grooming from Rupert! I’ve been looking forward to reading your upcoming thread for a while now. Hoping it works out

[Nutmeg]

Thanks S&L and A&B !!

S&L – thanks for the tips… I found myself wanting to continuously intervene but then was worried I would slow the progress of them “figuring it out”. I obviously stopped any chacing that looked aggressive or was continuous, but I’ll start stopping the other chases as well.

And I’ll make the caged area smaller too (easy to do with the panels) As that’s what I said to my hubby last night when he gave me “The look” for bringing it inside (I use it outside to for them get some sun and eat some grass from time to time lol) I told him “how are they going to be forced to at least acknowledge each other if they can run in 20 feet the other direction??” LOL

And A&B – your journal has been a HUGE help to me! Hope it works out well for the both of us

[Nutmeg]

Day 4 – Same neuteral place but made it a little smaller – 45 minutes

1. A lot of the same above… Penny annoyed that its even less space as she remembers being able to go past the carpet from the first two dates lol. Eating, cleaning themselves, Rupert asking for grooming, Penny humping him instead, runs away… Rupert trying to hump penny… stopped any chasing, but seemed to be less of it then yesterday.

2. Penny figures out she can squish herself flat like a pancake and can get UNDER the Couch *Facepalm* … I thought MAYBE a mouse could fit under there… but OMG.
3. Get Penny out and stuff towels under the couch edge…. Penny figures out jumping up on the couch, Rupert figures it out from watching her and jumps up to. They proceed to have a GREAT time running up and down the fake-leather… Don’t have the heart to get them off as having fun together is good.
4. They then proceed to try to jump off the armrests of the couch, over the fencing I put up *double face palm* so I make them get down.
*Note to self: block off the couch for tonight’s session LOL

5. ** My hubby was upstairs making a snack and dropped a pot or something.. both bunnies go on high alert and Penny stomps… they instantly are BESIDE each other, together, but each on high alert. Not the typical “stress” bonding, but afterwards Penny and Rupert both put there heads together to ask for grooms – No one gives in, so I pet both their heads while there faces are together, as soon as I stop Rupert grooms Penny – same as yesterday.

6. Rupert stops and Penny gets up and try’s to hump his FACE.. how is that for a Thanks?!?!??? Obviously I move her off.

7. After some more exploring Rupert then flops down beside Penny… Penny hops away and eats. (so no flopping fully together like they did yesterday)

8. Lastly, brought out their absolute favorite real Treat that they go NUTS for as a final food aggression test… as soon they hear that bag crinkle they boy go zooming around and binkying. There was no aggression when Rupert happened to get his first and then gave Penny hers.
Then put them back, but swapped cages again for the night.

**NOTE; Penny seems to only ask for grooms only once in the session, which is the “groom me face off”.. Rupert then gives them AFTER i’ve pet them both… ** Rupert asks all the time, which results in getting humped… Poor Rupert.

[Asriel and Bombur]

Honestly this so much sounds like how the boys started out the first 1-2 weeks. I can’t stop laughing. Especially about the couch! When we moved the boys into semi-neutral, which was their normal room with the cages covered in blankets and their baby blanket on the floor, Az would jump on top of the cages and just chill up there. Bombur can’t jump that high, so he figure out that if he squeezed himself between the wall and cages and on top of the heater, that he too could hop up there with Az. They looked like they were having good fun, so it was hard to move them xD

I think your sessions are sounding positive overall! I’ve got my cheerleading outfit on and cheering hard core for you guys!

[Nutmeg]

haha thanks A&B – I was thinking the same thing when I think about your journal. Penny LOVES to jump up on top of her cage *Sigh* lol

Penny is bigger than Rupert so usually it takes seeing her do something a few times before he tries it – although Ironically when we go to the vet HE is the one who is fine and confident and SHE is the one who freaks out LOL

SO I get the neutral territory thing, but for the “Semi-Neutral” would that be the “bunny land” where they both had play time (separately of course) as they are used to smelling the other bunny there as well as sharing a litter box in it? There is no where else in the whole house they have ever been besides the fenced off 8′ by 10′ area that will be there 24/7 home when fully bonded that they take turns running around in for a few hours at a time each.

And then their personal territory would just be their cages as thats the only spot they were every fully alone? (although I’ve been swapping their cages, so not anymore)

If “bunny land” is still considered not “semi” neutral enough then I’m at a loss as they don’t have anywhere else they’ve been but the new neuteral spot I’m using now haha

And thank you SO much!! I’m cheering for us both lol

[Asriel and Bombur]

I had a similar situation where I had to improvise. Are their cages in there? Throwing the blankets on top really seemed to help keep it semi-neutral. I also rearranged some stuff every night that way it looked different enough but there were still some distinguishing things. I also had their normal litter box out too. Maybe some of this could apply?

[Nutmeg]

Yes, I’ll definitely give that a try as their cages are in there…. my original thought was to replace the carpet in it (its just an 8′ by 10′ area rug) when I was ready to try move them in their together permanently for their outside time as we work up to over nights, as it is the same carpet from my previous fluff ball and between her and now them it’s got some good rip ups in it lol. 

But then I’m worried if we have a step back and I have to start letting them back out one at a time to get their excersize then I’m just back at square one lol. 

My other thought was to use the new carpet out in the neuteral area and once they were comfortable together and ready to try the semi-neuteral place then I would move that carpet in there so they were used to the smell of THAT carpet in there. 

DID that even make sense? hahaha

This is bunny land from before the second cage was bought when hubby first brought them home…. the sides are now another foot higher and have wood beams for support and a little swing gate for me to get in and out – I’ll try to upload an updated picture of that when I can lol, but the layout is the same except the other cage is in the other front corner (that is cut off in the pic) across from the one you can see here….

This is them the day they came home when they were 8 weeks and 12 weeks. They obviously were separated right after. 
But Penny is bigger on the Right and Rupert is on the left… 
 

[Asriel and Bombur]

I’ve always loved that their colors were basically inverted Are they Dutch? I’ve never thought to ask xD

I think that could be a good idea. My understanding from people explaining semi-neutral was to have some neutral things and some mutual things that way neither one gets super territorial? I’m not 100% on that though. But it sounds like a good idea.

[Nutmeg]

Yes! They are goth dutch / dwarf crosses and are one month apart in age…. Penny is older and has more dutch – hence the “almost” straight band accross, where as Rupert is smaller with more of the dwarf and no real band.
They have the same parents I think…. my hubby got them from a pet store. I usually always rescue and adopt, but I was NOT coping well after the loss of our Senior Bunny buns… I wouldn’t even go downstairs, which is where bunny land is (Its a raised bungalow with a finished basement, where we spend most of our time… not some dank dark place haha) so I came home one day and SURPRISE they were in bunny land lol.

There is a quote I’ve always loved, which is “Grief is just love with no where to go” … he told me that I will now have somewhere for my love to go to help my ease my grief.

But I think I’ll try that as the items in it will be what they are used to, but the carpet would be new.

Thanks so much for all of your help xoxo

[Nutmeg]

Day 5 *** – Same spot – 50 minutes… Whats that saying … two steps forward – One step back….. *Sigh*
It wasn’t bad, just back to where we were two days ago.

Ok, so I shrunk the space AND blocked off the couch. This then forced them to not be able to avoid each other as much – which I think led to the one step back.

There was no fighting and much of the same from above, but Rupert kept trying to hump Penny and Penny would run away. I would stop him from chasing after a few hops and it never appeared as an aggressive chase… more of a “hey, I’m still trying to hump you here!” kind of follow behind.

And Rupert SUCKS at trying to hump Penny! He has no balls (and not just because he’s neutered lol) … but he acts like he’s either trying to sneak up on her or is nervous about… so say she’s eating some hay… he kind of creeps upbehind her and sniffs a bit… and then he SLOWLY Try’s to mount her butt to hump her… but as soon as she feels him she takes off… so he doesn’t technically get to hump her.

Penny did not hump Rupert at all – but I’m not sure if that’s because he was too busy trying to slowly hump her (lol) to request any grooms. And him requesting grooms is what was causing Penny to hump him. So she never once tried to hump him for the whole time out.

There was no grooming.

There was mirrored self grooming and eating.

Rupert did flop near her towards the end of the session but she just sat there and then hopped off to explore. So I have them both their veggies to help it end on a good note and put them back.

** I’m thinking I’ll try the same tonight after dinner, but then I’m thinking for one of the days this weekend to try during the day when they are a bit more sleepy/relaxed. As I’m not sure how much their “Evening Energy” is working against me for getting the flopping tired grooming started.

Obviously they need to get used to being around each other at all times of day and night – but I’m hoping once we have that break through moment and they realize how nice it is to snuggle together or groom the other one than that will encourage that bonding at other times too.
Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking hahaha

[Asriel and Bombur]

I saw a lot more progress when I had them out during “nap time” hours. I fed them pellets together around 9ish, and then they explored for a bit and napped near or next to each other for the next few hours. It was a little ballsy having them together for so long, but it was a good thing to be able to see that they could just chill without having to be doing something.

I think your last session wasn’t necessarily a step back, just not really a step in either direction? It sounds like they do better with more freedom.

[Nutmeg]

Yes – the more freedom is what I’m wondering about…. was it that they did better with the more freedom? OR was it because after having more room to run around that they tired them selves out enough to flop and relax a bit – as the flopping and one sided grooming from Rupert was at the end of the session when they would have been more tired out.

This time they didn’t have more room to really run (It was still 5 feet across, just narrower, and not the couch or access to explore on the fake wood flooring lol) so they still had all this energy at the end of an hour.

But I agree – my hope is once they realize that they CAN relax together we’ll start to make more progress. That will have to wait until the weekend though when I’m not at work lol. I’ll still put them together for a bit tonight.

Thanks for all your tips and thoughts!

[Sirius&Luna]

This all sounds fine, it’s still very early days! I wouldn’t stress too much, and I wouldn’t expect to see that much progress on day 5 personally, they’re still getting used to interacting with each other. There haven’t been any fights, which is the important thing!

[Nutmeg]

Thanks S&L – I think its that I’m just so dang excited to have them be together so that they both can have full 24/7 roaming time, instead of just a few hours each during the week when I get home from work… and lets be honest.. I just want them to love each other as much as I love them lol.

But I do need to prepare myself for a slow up-hill climb as neither of them are the snuggly kind.

Rupert is starting to run from me as right now I am the bad mommy who picks him up to move him to the neuteral space & then the bad mommy who picks him up to move him from the neutral space LOL He’s fine once he’s there and will come up to me once I’m sitting down, but its when he see’s me bending down that he runs. He doesn’t get aggressive, but just takes off haha.

*** But Day 6 Update *** we did have some positive progress yesterday. They were out for over an hour this time…. AND…. Drum Roll… Penny actually gave Rupert a short little grooming.

I’ll post a video I took of when I was giving them both pets together and when I stopped she sat up and gave him a few licks/grooms on the top of his ears before hopping away.

Here is the video —-> Video of them snuggling (click) or direct link..  https://youtu.be/4j-kwzxiTtc

She humped him twice, which she also doesn’t normally do… he kind of took it for a few seconds (I think he was in shock haha) and then would try to turn out from under her to try to hump her, which I stopped as I didn’t want to it to turn in to circling.

He didn’t groom her this time, but wasn’t able to hump her as he just goes up so slowly that she hops away before he can get a grip still.

OH and they both ate off the plate together for a long time. Which normally the nibble, hop away, nibble…

Here is a video of that…. —->Video of them eating together  (Click)  or direct link … https://youtu.be/a07Pp6zmJtc

Thanks again for all your tips and advise. It’s always good to know that things are on the right track

[Asriel and Bombur]

I got nothing to say for advice, BUT they’re absolutely adorable together! So exciting things are going well thus far.

*still in background with megaphone and pompoms*

[Nutmeg]

Thanks A & B – I just appreciate the moral support and cheer-leading hhaha

There isn’t much more for you to add until things start to really change lol
I was really excited when Penny finally gave Rupert a little groom – it was short, but it still happened. Now if I can just get them both to groom in one session (and not just themselves lol) than I am opening a second bottle of wine!!
Yes, second, as I’ve already opened the first bottle of wine so that that they can’t sense my nerves hahaha

[Sirius&Luna]

Yaaaay grooming! This is good progress! Any updates from the weekend?

[Nutmeg]

Hey guys! Sorry I couldn’t update over the weekend – we were having internet issues.

Things are kind of at a stand still for all 4 sessions since Friday evening. Everything is mostly the same as above and I’ve been lengthening the sessions – we are up to an hour and a half now.

So here is the issue that we can’t seem to move past…..

Rupert asks for grooms CONSTANTLY (or the is a grooming request showdown) to the point he has his face shoved almost all the way under her…. Penny will give in and groom him… she give him a few licks on his ears – then maybe groom her self for a bit – then groom him some more…  and then it almost ALWAYS Turns in to her trying to hump him. Face-humping is instantly stopped, but if she’s going for a side or back hump I let her.

so when she humps he’ll instantly try to turn around and then one of two things happens:

1.He turns around so fast she lets go and he faces her with his head down requesting more grooming, which she usually complies OR

2. He doesn’t turn around fast enough and she keeps hanging on with him trying to turn around to hump her back or stop her which starts a circling motion… and you can see where this is going… it turns into a fight.
So at this point I have to intervene quickly.

Now its not a vicious fight by any means and maybe twice I’ve seen a small piece of fur on the carpet after I get them separated and they calm down SUPER fast and act like nothing happened.
They do tag team on trying to kill the towel I have stuffed under the couch to block them from going under there… They are eating together great.

The odd time her grooming him doesn’t turn in to humping she will flop down beside him and request grooms back or just lay there… he will then get up (he is NOT flopped though, just in the bunny loaf with his head down while she’s grooming him) once he realizes she’s not grooming him anymore and either try to shove his head under her (sometimes under her butt like hes trying to smell her *scratches head*) or he tries to hump her.

ANY TIME Rupert trys to hump Her she takes off. He just approaches so slowly so can feel him coming lol.
He does NOT chase her when she runs away. It’s like you can see him mentally *shrug* and go back to doing his own thing.

And he does not seem to be grooming her back any longer now that she has been trying to hump him. (maybe a few licks once every two or three sessions)

But its always this: Penny humps Rupert, Rupert trys to turn around either she gives him more grooms if he flips around fast enough OR it turns into circling – like a dog chasing his tail as she still trys to hump him while he is turning them around to get to her.

Neither of them wants to give in.
I was hoping to put in the shared litter box from the common play area this weekend (as they are used to the others scent being in it) but I’m not sure if I should do that yet now.

Any thoughts? I know I have to let them work it out, but as soon as I see any circle motion – even though its not a bunny tornado yet – I have to stop it before it escalates higher.

And Rupert is now starting to trust me less when I’m standing up as he knows I’m going to pick him up and either put him in the neuteral area or put him back when we are done. He’s grunting at me now. But he’s fine with me when I’m sitting down with them.

[Sirius&Luna]

It sounds like they’re having dominance issues. Which is unsurprising at this stage really I’m guessing he’s trying to assert dominance by demanding grooms, and she’s trying to assert dominance through humping – because they’re both trying to assert dominance through different means, they’re getting confused!

I would keep doing what you’re doing, intervene when they start circling, but not until then. Remember, the odd nip isn’t bad, it’s good for them to communicate and set boundaries with each other, but obviously biting is bad. I would keep extending the sessions – does this happen throughout sessions? more at the beginning? more at the end?

I would wait on the litter box for a bit longer.

[Nutmeg]

Hi S&L – thanks for replying

YES!!! That is exactly what it is! 

The actual circle humping starts in the middle or after about half an hour to 45minutes… after they are done with most of the exploring and eating of the veggies and best pieces of hay…. I find once that kind of starts it happens over and over. Rupert shoves his head under Penny… Penny grooms a little bit – hump /circle – separate goes back to each other and Rupert shoves his head under Penny again…. repeat.

Rupert tends to try slowly approach to hump Penny when she’s distracted – eating, digging at the towel…. which never works. Its like the guy doing the awkward yawn and stretch on a date LOL.

That’s exactly what I mean by it doesn’t seem vicious – at no point did I think “omg they want to kill each other” – I think it only escalates so quickly because Rupert is turning around when she’s humping him which starts the circle motion. But once the circle starts thats when I can see it starting to turn vicious. 

Once I stop that – I don’t even need gloves and hardly ever need to put the dust pan between them to get them to stop – thats how non aggressive it is – sometimes one will chase the other once stop the circle motion, to try to hump (its the ONLY time Rupert will chase her – as if he has to have the last hump/word) or she’ll chase him to try to re-hump… should I stop that chase as well?

And thanks again 

[Asriel and Bombur]

If you manage to get over this bump, lawd please tell me how! It was like that with the boys and it was very non-aggressive at first, but the more demanding Bombur became the more aggressive they got and the more Az would hump out of frustration and then they would just be circling for like 5 minutes and wouldn’t stop for a good bit. So please if you find something that works for your two, let me know!

[Sirius&Luna]

I would stop chasing, just because chasing never really leads to anything positive – we don’t stop humping because it can lead to establishing dominance, but chasing is always just chasing. It’s weird, its like they completely stop thinking when they start the circling and just turn into a whirling ball of hate that they can’t get out of

I wonder if introducing more things earlier would help? Perhaps you could top up hay, or add some toys? I think Dana even recommends adding boxes so there’s other things to explore. Since yours haven’t been fighting, maybe trying a neutral cardboard box could be worth a try? (I would remove the bottom, so you can lift if straight up if you’re worried that they’re fighting in it).

[Nutmeg]

Oh man A&B – my story really is more and more like yours lol. We will continue on this journey together!
My hubby is always asking “how much longer is this going to take? I want the living area back” LOL

And S&L – I know what you mean! Its like as soon as I stop them they “snap out of it” and its like nothing happened.

And that’s a good idea… I tried splitting up the veggies in half… so half when I first put them together and half part way through… but yes, maybe a neuteral toy that neither has seen before.

AND I already have a card board box that I had been saving for when I started putting them together in the semi/neuteral space – which will be there normal play area with a new carpet and re-arranged with their cages either removed for the first part or covered with a blanket like A&B did.
SOoooo I will just use that now

And OMG Good suggestion on having the bottom cut off in case I need to lift it off. My luck, even with the multiple exits cut into it they would still fight inside of it lol.

Man I love this group! xoxoxo

[Nutmeg]

Some small progress! Rupert is finally grooming Penny again!!! – however he is taking a page out of her book and trying to follow a few licks of grooming followed by trying to hump her! (*sigh*)
Still mostly face humping.
But the circle/chasing wasn’t as bad. It still happened, but I was able to stop it much easier and faster.

Because I felt more in control I was able to get some video knowing it would turn into a face-hump, but feeling confident in being able to stop it one handed (or drop the phone if I needed to lol)
But the video will give you a better idea of their body language and such….. Oh and at one point it looked like he was “Grooming” her butt – or eating her Cecals (ew) so there is a video of that too lol.

The longest clip is about a minute and a half. And I apologize for the loud tv – they don’t make any grunt sounds or anything, so you don’t really need the audio lol

1. A shorter clip of Penny Grooming Rupert, then face humping and the circling starting and stopped —- Humping and Circle Video – 

https://youtu.be/QdOBhSR-rBg

2. A longer clip of similar interactions, you can see how much faster they are snapping out of wanting to chase and how quickly Rupert comes back wanting more grooming …. —-  Longer Video – https://youtu.be/i21txD75V6g

3. Rupert FINALLY Back to Grooming!!!! ….. Rupert Grooming Video – https://youtu.be/YFZYF_OvLwU 

4. Rupert Grooming her Butt??? UMmmmm — What is Rupert Doing? Video – https://youtu.be/gK0LcDobVmw 

5. And Lastly, Rupert Finally gets a short hump in LOL… Skip ahead to the 50 second mark, as its after Penny humps him…. Rupert Humps Penny at end of Video – https://youtu.be/8kPSfnE28GA 

** Oh and I introduced a new ball for them to play with, which worked well… will add in the box tonight.
I also spaced out the Veggie feeding over 3 times (so same amount of veggies, just smaller amounts each time) to help distract when they would start to get worked up. 

PS – sorry, its giving me a hard time making the links “clickable”, even though they are showing as clickable when I go to edit my post. 
 

[Asriel and Bombur]

You are a brave soul for going in barehanded xD

loved the videos! Rupert is so funny when he tries to mount her. such a sneak.

That’s a great idea with the veggies! I’ll have to give that a try.

[Nutmeg]

hahah thanks! I have the dust pan right beside me just in case – and I’ve had to use it – but I can usually tell when its kind of a half hearted turn around vs something worse.

And yes, having things to introduce food wise when ever I noticed it starting to get more intense or frequent was definitely helping!
Plus they weren’t full from eating it all at the start, so they would both stop whatever they were doing to eat some more lol

[Nutmeg]

Hey! Sorry I missed yesterdays update. I’ve had somethings going on.

So the day before yesterday – there was a lot more grooming and then humping and then circling from both… again, more just Rupert being humped and instantly trying to turn around which then could turn into full circle fighting if I don’t stop it.
Rupert is still doing better at grooming… but then tries to hump and Penny bolts.

The splitting up the veggies into three smaller feedings is still working as a great distraction to snap them out of repetitive humping cycles.

So basically more of the same, but more of it lol.

Last night I was mentally and physically exhausted. Rupert now growls and stomps at me when he see’s me coming from a standing position and becoming more guarding of his cage – which he never has before.
I do NOT want to break that trust we have been slowly building – so I decided to give it a break for last night as the picking him up is getting to be too stressful for him. So I just let them each out for their own run around time and I just sat in there with them for some one on one time.

He was binkying and running and zooming and jumping all over me again – thank goodness!

I have a girlfriend coming down this weekend. Maybe I’ll have her be the one to pick him up (Penny doesn’t like it much either, but she’s not getting aggressive about it) so she can be the bad guy for a bit lol.

He was always fine with the occasional pick up – its just because its twice a day right now – and he’s getting to smart to trick him in to the carry case, especially when its to put him back out of the neuteral space…. so I don’t know. lol.

I wish I could just speak bunny and just say “Hey! If you could figure out how to be a proper rabbit and not mix up your dominance and submissive signals and get this bonding thing figured out I wouldn’t have to pick you up as much any more!” lol

[Nutmeg]

Should I try a stress bonding by taking them for a car ride?
Or as they are not actually fighting – then maybe not?
I know Penny HATES the car ride and it stresses her out – so I don’t want her to link Rupert with bad car rides either.

Maybe, as the weather is supposed to be cooler this weekend, I can have my girlfriend help me bring them outside (watch one while I bring out the other) and we can have a bonding session out there.
Neither have been out side before… so maybe it will be slightly stress bonding – as they may hear the neighbors dog barking and such – but also it will be new neutral territory.

[Nutmeg]

HELLOOOooooo – Hope everyone had a great weekend. I have Videos and a SUGGESTION For A&B (although you may have already tried this… on point #2 for outside time)

SOOoo this weekend was good!! And I have some updates –

1. Friday night my girlfriend came over from out of town – now you need to know that I had moved up in to the country, so we don’t really have people over much, so when friends come to visit it is for two to three days.
So since they bunny’s have not had much experience with people I thought this may mix it up a bit.

Put them in same neuteral space as before but unblocked the couch so Erin could sit there. They were having so much fun jumping up on the couch and checking her out that there was ZERO humping resulting in spinning and NO Chasing for the full hour and a half they were out.

2. A& B – have you tried taking them outside yet or to a TOTALLY new area? ** The temperatures have finally cooled off here so I decided instead of stress bonding that we would take them outside for the FIRST TIME Ever! (with my girlfriend there to help set up the make shift pen and help watch them)

~ We only had them outside for 20 minutes…. they were almost too freaked out to move around too much at first. Grass, Breeze, bird chirping….. They instantly went to each other for comfort. They groomed each other – and started to get more comfortable with each other.
I decided that was a good spot to end as I didn’t want to push to far with them outside for the first time.

3. My girlfriend had gone home, but as they were calling for rain the next day (today) I decided to take them back out again. The neighbours dog was outside (he can’t get over to my side, but he was barking a bit) so this was kind of good for some stress bonding in that they instantly went to eachother.
Penny was a lot more nervous than Rupert. I had put a towel up over the one side of the cage area I had made for them to have some coverage. We were in the shade, so it was more for them to feel “Safer” even though I was in there with them the whole time… but Penny stayed under there for the most part – which is where these two video’s were taken.

But it went GREAT. Penny was pissed at me after (she’s fine now lol) but they snuggled and groomed each other – and that did NOT lead to any face humping or circling for the whole hour and a half they were out there. There was a crow somewhere cawing… and they would run back to each other… car goes by out front.. run back together.
Rupert half heartedly tried to hump Penny when she was eating some grass, but she just hopped away and it was no big deal. That was the only hump.

Here are some videos of them outside:

1. Penny Grooming Rupert – No Humping!

2. Rupert Grooming Penny – No Humping!

3. Interacting

4. Grooming Toes and Penny LOL

I will have to do their bonding tonight back in the area inside I was already using, as its supposed to rain all evening when I get home from work. But I really think this helped them realize they can hang out together with out it having to turn in to a humping session. 

I just don’t know if they’ve established their pecking order yet. 

[Asriel and Bombur]

Oh this is such awesome news coming off the weekend It definitely seems like the outdoors helped a lot. Fingers crossed it’s smooth sailing from here!

I had thought about doing some sessions outdoors because they absolutely love being out there (haven’t been since they were tots), but we live on a farm with chicken, duck, goat, pig, and pug poop everywhere, so that’s a no xD we have a park that’s nearby, but it’s right off the main road so I’m a little antsy about it.

[Nutmeg]

Fingers and toes crossed over here too – its such a pain in the butt to get them in to their carriers (they are wise to my tricks now lol) and then out there and back again.
Once they are bonded I can trick them in to their normal cage with food and lock them in – then carry the whole cage out – its not too big, which is why I want them bonded so that it can just be a little spot for them to go into if they feel like it, with it never locked.

Oh man, ya – I would be worried about the poop too! We don’t have any animals outside, but theres no way to know for sure if a cat or a squirrel or something has gone poop while passing through – but that I can at least take a look for when setting up the out door play area.

Do you have a friend near by that has a back yard you could use?

[Asriel and Bombur]

Sadly, no. We’re in MA, but we’re basically on the NH border. Everyone we know lives in Boston or Worcester (basically city central), so we’re the only ones with a yard. They have a vet trip in October for nail trimmings, so we might stop real quick at their old park and maybe do it then.

[Nutmeg]

Oh thats a good idea!!
I’m dreading cutting their nails myself for the first time… so far I’ve been able to have the vet do it (first check up appointment and then when they were under when being fixed a few months after that) ….. I’m not looking forward to it, but Penny is so scared of the car I don’t know if that would be worse for her.
It’s already been almost 2 months since the vet… so I imagine they need to be done again now.

[Nutmeg]

Sooooo – we’ve taken a step back…

We were back inside in the neuteral territory I’ve been using there – after having two days of outside bonding time – ANDDddd we’re back to where we were, but more chasing.

So both groomed the other – but there was one a lot of one grooming the others head and then trying to face hump from BOTH of them.
I would push them to the side to allow a side or bum hump attempt – as stopping it all together wont allow them to work it out – but wouldn’t allow the facehump obviously.

If Rupert did it to Penny she would just hop away – he would have halfheartedly follow her, but it wasn’t a chase.

** If Penny did it to Rupert it would turn in to him turning around – if he turned around fast enough he would face her and it would turn in to a request for more grooming. If he didn’t then it would turn in to a ** Circle Chase.

One was really bad, in that as soon as I separated the circle one or the other would instantly try to chase the other to try to hump – separate again, run back at the other to try to hump.Nothing would distract them so I had to use the dust pan to keep Rupert back, as he was the more persistent one. 

I would have allowed the hump if the other wasn’t still trying to run away from the one trying to hump. There did NOT seem to be any intention to bite or seriously fight – its just all about trying to hump and chasing as neither wants to be humped. 

** The only upside is that they both got so tired that I did FINALLY get to see them BOTH flop beside each other!!
(Penny has flopped beside Rupert a few times already, but as soon as he realized she wasn’t grooming him anymore he would groom her a few times and then try to hump her and she would run away…. he’s so romantic *Facepalm* )

[Nutmeg]

So we had a big storm come through the last few days – which resulted in me having a vicious migraine yesterday after work.
I did not have the energy to take them up and break up hump chasing fights – like I mention above from the day before.

Is it bad to skip a day?

[Asriel and Bombur]

I think it might actually be good for them to have the day off and just kinda chill for a bit without the other. Maybe they’ll surprise you when you do it tonight.

Girl, that air pressure during storms has me always reaching for my Imitrex or my Firocet. You aren’t alone xD
Hope its better today :*

[Nutmeg]

Thanks A&B – I figured that if I’m getting worn out by it they must be too.
And OMG it’s just horrible! Hope it gets better for the both of us

[DanaNM]

Hi there,

I just skimmed this, so sorry if I missed something that’s already been answered!

A couple Q’s!

How long are your sessions? And what is your bonding space like (size, distractions, proximity to non-neutral space)?

I saw stressing mentioned early. I personally think that car-rides can be a very useful tool with stubborn buns. I like to do a stress-sandwich, where the date begins and ends with a short stressing session (either a car ride or something similar, like vacuming around them while they are in a carrier).

Regarding chasing and space size (and this is just my experience, not what works for all buns!): with mine, small spaces (aside from very stressful ones) always lead to circling and fighting and biting. In a large space with obstacles, they can actually get away from each other. I found with my last pair (and Vienna had something similar with Henry and Zhou), that they actually needed a really large space to chase a little and behave more normally at their own pace. I think the act of one rabbit always retreating helped the other learn that they were indeed submitting to them. The day that one bunny stops turning and circling, then you know you are on the right track. I had some luck adding in more hiding spots than bunnies (tunnels, boxes with at least two openings), hay everywhere, treats all over, etc. to add some things to break up the chase. I also needed a BIG area (two x-pens linked up). If the area is too small, and one bunny tries to run away, they really don’t have anywhere to go, so the other rabbit perceives that as that bunny trying to chase THEM. And circling ensues.

Also, when they chase, if the chasing rabbit’s ears are forward, that means they are wanting to mount. It’s usually much slower as well. I allow this with mine, unless it seems like it’s getting out of hand. This is different from the ears back/tail-up “I HATE YOU” chase, which should be stopped right away.

Regarding the space: try to mix up your bonding area, and make it as neutral as possible. If you are within SMELL of their home turf, you are in semi-neutral, not neutral. I was finally able to finish bonding my last two when I took them to a friend’s house for the weekend and marathon’d them there.

Overall it doesn’t sound like things are going too badly. At this point I think long sessions in a huge, interesting, neutral area, would prob help a lot! Maybe even started off with a car ride

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hi DanaNM – no worries – this has been an ongoing post for a few weeks now lol.

Question 1 – We started off slowly and have now increased time to almost an hour and a half. For size of cage its the length of the couch and then about to 3 feet out in front of it (so 5 feet long by about 3 feet wide?. I have the top of the couch blocked off.

We also did two “Stress bonding:” sessions outside – as they have never been out there before and I know the sounds of cars and the neighbors dog barking would freak them out for a bit – we got up to an hour out there. This was great as we only had one half attempt at a hump session and mutual grooming.

Maybe I will try your car ride suggestion too – Penny HATES the car – she had to be rushed to the back of the vets office when we got there she was on her side panting and freaking out. So I was worried she would relate Rupert to the car.

And didn’t realize that if they could smell their home turf that that could trigger – makes sense though. – I’m not sure if there is anywhere other than outside that they can’t smell their area from inside. Taking them outside every day for hours on end isn’t an option for daily use lol.

So far the only time we have chasing in cicles is when Penny humps Rupert….. If Rupert humps Penny and she runs away then he follows for a few hops and then nothing.
If Penny humps Rupert then he turns around to face her – where if he does it fast enough he faces her and requests more grooming – which she gives him.
If he does not turn around fast enough then her following his but turns into him following her butt… if I stop the circle motion and she hopes away THEN he will chase her to try to hump – but as its at a fast pace I stop it as it turns into circling again.
Almost every dang time! LOL

I’ll try to watch for what the ears look like when they are chasing after a hump session – as only once have I seen it escalate to what I think would turn in to a real fight. Otherwise i’ve always been able to separate them with my bare hands.

If either Rupert or Penny approach to try to hump – you are right, you can always tell lol – I allow it as long as they aren’t going for a face hump haha.

Thanks so much for your tips and advise DanaNM

[DanaNM]

Well it does sound like they are communicating at least!

The fact that Penny is still humping means she isn’t quite relinquishing dominance yet (which is why Rupert follows with grooming requests). Who knows who will end up being dominant, but eventually they will figure out some sort of arrangement. Sometimes it’s honestly hard to tell who is dominant (I’m convinced sometimes they both they it’s them! )

Your space sounds a little small to me (but then you have smaller buns, so it might be OK! my girl Bertha is 9 lbs…), and the sessions are still short-ish. Sounds like your last session ended with them both flopping? Thats great. When sessions are short-ish sometimes they have to go through lots of dominance displays at the beginning of each one. Assuming they don’t tend to deteriorate as the sessions get longer, I would start pushing for some longer sessions (work up to 2 hours, then 4, then 6….).

Once they are doing well in longer sessions (like 6 hours or so without serious fighting or them getting worse and worse throughout the session), and if your schedule allows it, you can ask a friend if you can bring them over and bond in their garage or kitchen. I have a tiny apartment and this is ultimately what I had to do with my last pair. It worked so well I only wish I had tried it sooner!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Ya Rupert is only 2 pounds and Penny is 2.5 pounds hahaha.

BUT I took your advise DanaNM – and Semi Great news – I was able to set up the wire pen upstairs…. its a bit smaller when I have to fully close it in fully – it makes about 4 feet long by 3 feet wide… but its my only option when upstairs with them.
And upstairs is FULLY neutral.

It went WAY better for the first 45 minutes. There was only a couple of humping attempts from Rupert – Penny would hop away and he wouldn’t chase… Penny didn’t try to hump at all in the first 45 minutes … AND THEY FLOPPED TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER!!!
Normally when Penny would give Rupert a few grooms and then flop down beside him he would then turn around and try to hump her while she was laying down and she would bolt…. THIS time he then groomed her a few times after she flopped and then flopped down beside her.

Now they weren’t fully relaxed… Rupert had both ears up and Penny still had one ear up, both their eyes were wide and Rupert especially was breathing a big heavy (like after they stop running around) but they stayed like that for over 5 minutes!!

After the 45 minutes there was some hump chasing which I was able to distract them with more Kale and such there was more grooming…. then a bit more chase humping… more Kale… So THEN about an hour and a half later my husband came upstairs to check on me (he had to help me get them up there) and a full on hump/circle/chase broke out where this time when I stopped it there was no distracting them from trying to get back over to the other one right away. I had to use the dust pan to break them up. Only one tuft of fur was pulled out (not sure who’s as their fur is the same colour) and obviously no full bites.
So after they calmed down I smushed them and petted them with one hand and petted them like that for a couple of minutes.

Then I had to put them back to go to bed.

The only problem is going to be when I start doing longer sessions… I work 10 hour days… then making dinner, I also have a second ‘from home job’ for extra money… so during the week its a struggle for 2 hours of 100% my attention.
Weekends are easier obviously lol.

And once I can have them back in semi neuteral and they can go at least 20 to 30 minutes with out a squable I can start doing my work while they are bonding – which will help. But because I would be up on a high desk chair I can’t do that until I no longer have to be on full guard as it would take me a second to get down to their level… where as right now I am sitting at their level… did that make sense? LOL

[DanaNM]

That sounds really positive overall!

It seems like scuffles always break out when we are distracted! So weird how that happens.

Might be good to try to keep up the shorter sessions during the week, and just try for longer ones on weekends? I had to do this with mine as well.

Even though I did say push for longer sessions, it might be good to focus a few sessions in a row on ending on a positive note. So next session, if they start grooming and flopping next to each other, end it then. Or set a time goal, and if they flop or groom within 30 min of that goal, end it then?

Not sure if it will be helpful to you, but their pattern sounds a little similar to my most recent pair. I wrote a blog post about it for my local rescue, which sums up the whole process, so it’s a shorter read than my whole bonding journal: http://www.bunssb.org/bunnies/bonding-two-stubborn-senior-buns/

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

That may be an idea DanaNM – I wish I could speak bunny and tell them how awesome they both are & to just get one with loving eachother as much as I love them lol.
I have company coming from out of town next weekend and was hoping they would be bonded by then… but It’s not looking like hahaha.

And thanks so much! I will read your blog right now!!!

[Nutmeg]

Ok – so last night was day 2 in the NEW upstairs location.

It was… .Interesting??… We had a step forward and a step back.

1. So the session started off with them eating the pile of veggie I put out (DanaNM, in case you missed it, I split up the full amount so I can give it as distraction points through out the session if anything gets tense) Penny actually took the food right out of Ruperts mouth… it started like a tug of war and then they both started eating towards the middle, and just when I was thinking “Awwww its like Lady and the Tramp…..” Penny Ripped the rest out of Ruperts mouth hahahah. He didn’t care and just got another piece.

2. Rupert tried to hump Penny 3 times pretty soon in to the session. She ran away, he didn’t chase her.

3. Penny tried to hump Rupert – INSTEAD of Rupert trying to spin around, which usually leads a chase, he ran away…. she chased after him, but only for a bout 3 or 4 hops and then stopped on her own. I did not have to interfere ONCE in all of these transactions…. so that’s really good! And there was a little bit of grooming each other and a lot of self grooming of themselves in between all of this.

4. I put out some more veggies to give them a break from trying to hump over dominance and have a good time eating Kale (their Fav!) That was fine. 

5. Penny goes up to Rupert, he requests grooms, she gives them… He kind of stretch lays out (no a full flop, but not full bunny loaf either) she then goes around to the back (yay no Face) and Humps him…. .HE LETS HER !!!!!! OMG !!! She only does it for about 3 seconds (it felt like 3 minutes to me lol) and then hopes off him.

~ He stays laying there, looking like he’s unsure what to do…

~ She comes back up and starts to hump him again almost right away…. he takes it for about another 3 seconds – then he bolts and tries to spin around. This turns into the biggest chase we’ve had so far with both trying to get to the butt of the other. My husband yelling “HAYYYyy!!!” actually stopped them faster than I could. He never yells – it was almost like the kids were like “uh-oh – Dad’s mad!” LMOA, because when I yell they ignore me.

6. *** I put out the 3rd, and final bit of their veggie… It was almost like Rupert was either scared or upset (hurt pride?) from submitting as he stayed hunched up far away from Penny while she ate the veggies at the plate. He would eat when I hand fed him… and would let me pet him… so after a bit he finally started moving around again and went up to her to request grooming – Penny ignored him… he just kept asking so she hoped away. He followed her and asked again – she groomed him a bit… and then Humped his face *Frig!* which I stopped and started petting them both.

7. They groomed each other a bit, so I got out the big guns – their ABSOLUTE Favourite treat that I save for special occasions… its called Apple Crock.. .I call it Apple CRACK – they go NUTS for it! So I shook the bag so they could hear it – they went nuts – they each ate theirs while I petted them and so I ended it there.

Ok – that was a long post, but a lot happened. lol.
So as much as that was the biggest amount of chasing I’ve ever had with them I think it did more to start to settle their dominance issues. Still some mix signals with the grooming followed by humping, but Rupert actually submitted a bit.
There were a few tuff’s of fur pulled (I think all Ruperts – they are the same breed/colour – so its hard to be sure) but again, non of it felt overly violent. I’m sure it could have gotten that way if I let the chase humping continue – but I wasn’t “scared” of the situation at any point.

Thoughts??? lol.
Oh and total time was just over an hour.

[DanaNM]

Ripping food out of each other’s mouths is totally something bonded bunnies do, so that’s really great that they are comfortable enough with each other to do that!

Honestly all of that sounds like progress. The big chase is not great, but the fact that it stopped with just a loud noise is pretty good (versus having to get in there and get your hands on them).

I think in your situation, I would keep up these shorter dates until you have time for some really long sessions. It sounds like you are making progress, and might need longer sessions to get to the next phase. I think the longer sessions are eventually necessary for them to realize “Oh, this other bunny is not going away, I guess we better sort things out.”. You might even decide you want to try marathoning. But wait until you feel ready for it and you have time to supervise them 24/7 until you feel confident they can be left alone.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hey!!! Sorry for the delay – its so hard for me to get on line during the weekends.
And thanks DanaNM – I tried to have sessions as long as I could this weekend… 

So this weekend I was able to use a blocked off couch to make the space upstairs a bit bigger… it adds about another 2 feet long by 5 feet wide to the already existing space I set up as the Cage walls don’t have to close in and touch to seal it off, but instead can run use the couch to close it off.
Soooo…. Here we go…. lol

Day 1 – 4 hours – went pretty good – Penny did get a bit territorial of the cardboard box I put in at the start (I cut two openings in to it) when Rupert would go in when she was in there she would stomp… but wouldn’t start a fight or anything. Just stomp once or twice – so I figured it was good that she didnt try to chase him out or anything, and she was fine if he was in there on his own… she only stomped when he was in there with her the first few times, then she seemed to get over it.
I did take the advise of making sure there was no bottom on the box so that I could easily lift it off if there was a fight… which I had to do once when I could see Penny was about to Face hump Rupert.
I decided at that point to just flip the box upside down so they could jump around on it, but not be hidden by it – more for ME being able to watch them at that point. I’ll flip it back over once we can go at least 2 hours with out a hump/chase lol.

~ The first hour they mostly ignored, explored and ate and self groomed. Then there was some groom face off’s… We had another mutual flop together – YAY!
~ There was some attempts by Rupert to hump Penny… she hopped away, no big deal.
~ There was only one chase that I had to break up, when Penny tried to hump, in the full 4 hours but NO Fur was even pulled at all for the full 4 hours!!
Ended it on a good note of eating and petting them both

*** Day 2 (yesterday) ended it at 3 hours as we had company coming over for dinner.

Ok, so this was a bit of a step back… not in a big way… just back to the hump chasing more and some fur pulling during the mounting…

~ So since yesterday went so well, I decided to try a litter box as Rupert had Pee’d on the hay mat I put in for them to play with and then Pooped there too an hour later, I could tell it wasnt a territory marking, but just that he had to go… SOOoooo I had bought a brand new low sided kitty litter plastic bin to use as a new litter box that has never been used.
– That went ok – there was no major aggression – but I found the problem was when they would both try to eat from the same end, side by side, where Penny would either jump out when Rupert jumped in OR would kind of shove herself in front of him (not at him) and he would jump out. OR Rupert would try to hump Penny while she was eating and then she would jump out.
– If I put some veggies at both ends of the litter box they were fine to be in there together eating at opposite ends.
– They did both use it – not at the same time – but had no problem with the others scent being in it.
– One never cared if the other was in it on their own.

Rupert tried to hump Penny, same as always, it never amounts to much.
Penny tried to hump Rupert and again he let her for a few seconds but then tries to turn around quickly and either does it fast enough to ask for grooms or not fast enough which turns in to the chase.

They were way more into trying to hump in this session then the last one when the area had changed just a bit. I’m thinking because they didn’t’ tire themselves out exploring as much this time as they did the day before.
I wish I could have let the session go longer as I wonder if they would have snapped out of it and lounged together again once they were tired lol.

So that’s my updates … Some new things… some things still the same *sigh* lol

[sarahthegemini]

Hahaha the lady and the tramp bit.. mine do that so often. I’ll think aww how cute, better get the camera out. Then all of a sudden, bun 1 just tugs it and eats it all themselves lol.

I don’t really have any advice as Dana is waaay more experienced at bonding but I am following this thread and the lady and the tramp bit is so close to home I just had to comment lol

[Nutmeg]

hahah thanks Sarah! Ya, that was me too…. Awwwww…. OH, You Pig LOL.

And Dana has been awesome, and so has A&B and S&L – can’t wait to see what they think of the development of adding the litter box

[Asriel and Bombur]

I think the litter box was a big help when I added it. They were a little touch and go at first, but overall it worked really well. Like you the main thing was humping (kinda wonder if it led to that fateful night xD). I think the major thing to obviously be on alert with for the box is the limited space they have to move about when one is trying to hump the other. With the boys I noticed a good bit of the “circling” happened in the box because they almost don’t see the way out and just keep scampering in the box. I think the addition of the box brings back a dominance element into the mix just because both buns are marking it with their smell so often that they are not forced to figure out who’s going to be the top one almost. Or that’s just what I observed.

I’m glad you did longer sessions over the weekend! I was going to suggest that on Friday and never really got around to it. But I think if things are relatively the same for the same amount of time, it’s a good idea to just increase the time and see how they react to it. I think it’s great that they basically remained the same in the increased sessions. I’d keep reaching for those 4ish hour sessions. I know we’re pretty similar with time constraints and can only keep them out for 2-2.5 hours each. So I think it would be awesome to see them essentially have their out time together. We were like that for about 2 weeks.

I think overall it is progress

[Nutmeg]

Hey A&B – ya when Rupert tried to hump Penny, she just hoped out… but I wonder what would happen if Penny tried to hump Rupert and he tried to flip around, which could start that circling motion…. Hmmmm.. Ya, good call to keep an eye out for that.

Same with in the cardboard little house, I noticed Penny had been chinning it as soon as I put it in and then Rupert did… and I haven’t really seen them Chin anything like that to mark it in a while.

Thankfully Penny did calm down after the first half an hour when he would go in too… and it was only the stomping… But I just flipped it over so it wasn’t a cave/house anymore because when Penny went to hump Rupert in there I couldn’t really see what was going on to watch for any warning body postures. So it was more my piece of mind hahaha.

Oh man, that may be an idea that they only get out of their cage when they are together. Kind of like “Hey, if I want to get out I have to put up with this butt head.. might as well get used to it” lol.

It’s not like I can’t have them out for 3 to 3 and a half hours after work, its more like *I can’t give them my undivided attention for 3 hours after work* hahaha. So what I’ve been doing is one hour out for one as soon as I get home from Job #1… then I start dinner, cuz I don’t have to just watch the one like a hawk… then an hour and a half out together after dinner… then just one out for an hour while I TRY To get some work done on job #2 before bed (which I am super falling behind on)

If they could just get along enough to not really hump fight for even an hour at a time then I could have them out for a lot longer… As I can be in the same ROOM as them getting work done or making dinner… so I can run over and stop it… but right now I still can’t look away for even a minute – can’t even take a bathroom break hahaha.

[DanaNM]

That sounds good Nutmeg!

Litter boxes (even new ones) can definitely stir things up a bit, so the fact that it didn’t cause major problems is good. I have never added boxes for mine until they are doing really well together for many hours. Whenever mine got to the point where they shared the box without issues, then I knew I was home free. It’s funny they get more territorial over litter boxes than food!

One thing to consider is when you have a session go well (the first 4 hour one sounds really good), it’s good to try to repeat exactly that set up a few times to cement the good behaviors. So personally I wouldn’t add a box just yet (I know it’s a mess…), but would try to repeat the set-up you had in the better session this week, even if the sessions are shorter.

I also would add at least 2 hidey boxes, maybe three, if you have room, so they don’t feel like they have to squabble over one.

You’re doing great though! Sounds like they are coming along!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM – I didn’t get to reply yesterday, but I did read your comment before I got home.
So I think I may try to make it so that the only time they get free outside play time is when they are out together = maybe they will think “Hey, If I want out of the cage I’ve gotta put up with this butt head”
This meant that I had them out for 3 hours last night and I did not work on my second job at all, as I could not have them only be out for an hour and a half total.

Ok, so – I added a second hiddy box and could possibly add a 3rd smaller one… just have to find a box I can cut up that is bunny safe for chewing.This was a GREAT Suggestion as there was no territory aggression from either of them with them. 

I asked my hubby to get them out while I was making dinner…. BUT forgot the litter box was still in there *Facepalm*  BUT whenIdid get over to see they were both sitting in it together eating hay like it was no big deal, so I decided to leave it and threw some Kale in to it to cement that eating in there together is great!

I took 2 videos of a typical interaction between them now – they are each about a minute and 30 seconds – so not that long .
There was some humping and such – but other than exploring on their own, this is pretty typical between the two of them – so I figured a video would be good for you to see their body language better than I can explain it…

*Note: Please don’t mind the movie in the background LOL and me saying “no face humps” a lot HAHAHAH.

1) Video #1 – This video is mostly Penny almost sitting on Ruperts head (LOL) and grooming herself, and then him and then eating and then grooming

https://youtu.be/SkPhm2eRQUI 

2) Video #2 – starts up right after the first one – this shows more of the request for grooms, grooming, layout out and humping…. The grooms turning in to humping is more towards the second half of the video… As you can see at the end, Rupert doesn’t really chase when Penny hops away. That seems to only happen when Penny humps him and he can’t turn around fast enough to request facegrooms…

https://youtu.be/wgfb0UD9Lgg

Video #2

*Note: there is more videos of the two of them on my youtube channel if you want to see more of them interacting together through this process)

Here is a 3rd video from Saturday of Rupert submitting to the hump for a few seconds – this has only happened 3 times in total, and not since this video – and a circle bum chase followed where Rupert was trying to get to her butt to hump her…
Its just 15 seconds long..

https://youtu.be/Nbarsi05lBo 

 Video #3

[DanaNM]

The butt grooming is so cute!!!

Honestly they look so good and relaxed together…. in the first video they are behaving like bonded buns. Even the vids with the face humping don’t seem too bad. They are so relaxed!

The fact that they shared the litter box is awesome.

They seem really close… so much grooming! And flopping!

I think if I were you and I had the time… I would go for some marathon sessions this weekend. You can decide whether you want to try for a full day and then split them up in the evening, or try for an overnight.

They seem like they are making great progress, keep up the good work!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM!!
Thats why I wanted to post the video, as it was hard to describe – its like the chasing in a circle motion does happen, but at NO point do I think “oh my god, they want to kill each other!”

I have a girlfriend coming from out of town, so I can’t do it this weekend… although maybe on Sunday if she leaves early enough… Hmmm… But you are right, I do think we need that one long session to break through that last hurdle

Thank you so much!!!! (and Everyone else) for your tips and advice!!!!

[Nutmeg]

Ok – I am SO Confused, which makes sense as it seems the bunnies are SOOoo Confused hahaha.

So I had them out for just over 3 hours last night… changed nothing from yesterday.

1. with in the first 5 minutes I had the typical, request to groom, face hump kind of thing…. pushed off and petted both… Sometimes Penny would give Rupert a few grooms and then “lion pose” lay out beside him, he would groom her and then try to hump her face…. and then vice versa… Rupert would lay out beside Penny, she would groom him and then herself and then either try to hump him or just go off an explore.
** Sometimes Rupert would try to groom her feet when she was layed out, which she hates & instantly jumps up hahaha

2. Ok – here is where I get confused…. One of the times when Penny was layed out, Rupert was grooming her and then came up behind her and humped her And she LET HIM !!!!!! After about 3 seconds of it she bolted and he he kind of did two little hops after her, but did not chase after her.
 She has NEVER let him before… except for a second of face humping before I can direct him off.

~ Rupert has let her hump him 3 times so far total, but she has never let him.
~ I thought she was becoming the alpha from that, but now I’m so confused and NO Wonder this is taking so dang long lol.

3. They also both flopped and layed out a few times – one time for a good 15 minutes – but not together this time. They were at almost opposite sides.
The last time they were out they flopped together a bit, but not this time.

So is this normal? Or are we going backwards? Cuz it feels like we are going backwards lol.

** I only had to stop 3 face humps and only had to stop 2 circle chases this time. The rest of the chasing has been resolving itself after a quick second, but I don’t feel comfortable letting the “chasing each others butts” circle motion go to see if it resolves like a straight chase because I do feel like that could escalate quickly.

[DanaNM]

Crazy bunnies!

I think anything that doesn’t lead to a fight is a good thing. Sometimes I’m bonded pairs it’s hard to tell who is dominant (and maybe they both think it’s them!). If penny trusts him more now she’s prob more inclined to allow the humps.

I agree though, who knows what they are thinking!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

hahah thanks DanaNM – I looked at my husband after and was like…. “Can you go get me a big glass of wine please?!!??” hahahha

[DanaNM]

lol yes wine is a necessity during bonding!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Posted By DanaNM on 9/19/2018 1:20 PM

lol yes wine is a necessity during bonding!

 ~ At this point it might turn in to Vodka! ahahah I’ll let you know how tonight goes 

[DanaNM]

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Ok – so I need the Vodka lol – We had our first official fight.
Now I know why before I wasn’t really feeling like they were fighting… the one was full of grunting and everything. Oh man. It happened so fast!
And of course it was when I had just stepped out of the caged off area to get something off the table, so it escalated before I could get back in – I rushed in and just picked up Penny in one arm – she didn’t even try to get down and she hates being picked up, not as much as Rupert though, which is why I grabbed her.

They are both fine – No fur was even pulled ! So I don’t if it was more just warning sounds of grunt/growls at that point with them flying around in a tight circle.

They went back to normal right after….

Here is a video of them a few minutes after – you can see how hard Rupert is still breathing – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAMB9wxob8M 

And here is them playing together – (You don’t need to watch the full 30 seconds lol) –  – Playing together Clickable Link

And here is Penny relaxing beside the litter box while Rupert is in it eating — Relaxing and Eating – Clickable Link

So they aren’t holding any grudges . I just didn’t realize how much me stopping them was really stopping it from escalating to that.

They did have a lot of grooming turning in to Facehumping, which I try to push them to the side.

**** Here is a video of one of those interactions, so wondering if you think I can do anything different –
So 20 seconds in you will see Penny go for the Facehump on Rupert, I drop the phone and move her off, then the video continues with Rupert going to hump Penny from behind (which I allow). Ironically at first its like she doesn’t even really notice… but then she does and runs off, he follows – still trying to mount her – After a few seconds of that kind of chasing I stop Rupert by just putting my hand in front of him…..

Here is the video…..

 ******* ~~~  – Hump Chasing – Clickable Link

So my question is – Should I have allowed more time to see if they resolved that chase themselves? Since it was easy for me to stop it? I just don’t want another grunt/growl fight lol.

[Asriel and Bombur]

What a bummer! I think breaking it up was definitely the right thing to do. After the overnight they got into two or so scuffles after that that were the tight circling, and even though they stopped really easily and went back to normal 5 seconds later, it really could’ve escalated even more. You really just don’t know their moods and what they’re thinking enough to be like “okay you guys got this.” I think for these instances it’s best to separate their scuffle asap. Don’t want any grudges

[DanaNM]

I have to say you scared me with your title!

But since no fur was pulled i wouldn’t personally call it a fight! But that definitely is an escalation and circling can lead to a fight. Were they locked on to each other kicking? A true fight (in my mind) is fur flying, locked on to each other, kicking, biting, the bunny tornado. And lots of fur pulled…. I am not even sure that circling counts as a tussle. I really only count things that involve fur pulling as really notable. But then again I have bonded some bratty dominant bunnies so maybe I have different standards lol

I do think you did the right thing by stopping it though.

If it happens again, rather than pick them up, try to break the chase or circling and see what happens. You can try a loud noise (like your vacuum cleaner or banging on a pot) to distract them rather than physically intervening. If you do have to physically intervene, rather than pick one up, pin them both down and pet.

It’s a fine line between interfering too much and not enough, so it can be hard to know when to jump in. With how yours seem in every other video, I’d be inclined to give them just a second or two longer to see if they resolve on their own (since they aren’t immediately going to biting and kicking).

I’m inclined to say that really early in the process, when you don’t know if the buns are just going to attack each other, intervene immediately and preventatively. But as you get later in the stage and more confident they are not going to immediately bite to injure, then it’s better to step back a little and see how they do.

But of course it’s whatever you feel comfortable with, and there’s lots of strategies that work!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks A&B and DanaNM!!!

A&B – That’s what I was worried about – in that this was the first time it escalated to growling and grunting! I just wasn’t sure how much further it could go.

DanaNM – Didn’t mean to scare you

They definitely weren’t locked on to each other with legs flying! I think it looked more like a fight to me as this is my first bond and this was the first real intense one! lol

Looking back on it with “not in the moment” eyes, I would say they were just starting to really circle & It was just starting to get more intense by the time I got back in to the caged off area (I had closed it behind me so that they didn’t get free before I could get back in)

I think it was more the fact that they (I think it was more Rupert, I’ve never actually heard Penny make a sound) started growling and grunting. The sounds scared me the most. I don’t normally pick them up, but I was coming in from a standing position – normally I’m sitting in there with them – and was already yelling “HEY! Stop that!! HEYYYY” which they ignored and it was like they didn’t even know I was there. It was more of an impulse grab haha.

And now that I think about it, I’m thinking most of the fur I’m seeing in sessions may be from when they grip on to hump and then I either I separate (face hump) or one runs away.

As much as my bum is numb from sitting on the ground for so long I am kind of hoping my girlfriend leaves early on Sunday so that I can at least do 6 to 8 hours. I think they need that longer time!

Part of that is selfish as I would like to really get to a point where I’m comfortable keeping a “half eye” on them… as in I can have them back down stairs where they can smell their area, but I can sit up in a chair to get my work done while they are down in the area at my feet around my desk. That way I can get some work done while they are bonding haha.

Thanks as always ladies!!!

[DanaNM]

Haha I totally understand.

I will just add that at this point you should start for sure start sitting outside the bonding area, but still within reach of them. You want to be able to intervene easily, but not be right in their face all the time.

And yes a little fur is usually pulled during mounting and most don’t count that the same as fur pulled in a scuffle.

Honestly that might be why they’ve never circled before, because you were sitting right there with them. They will tend not to behave quite as normally with you in there with them…kinda like a you’re a chaperone at the school dance…

Giving them a little space (but still being right there within reach) should help them work out their remaining hierarchy issues.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM – I missed this reply yesterday and have some things going on at home – so I was sitting in with them again last night.

But yesterday went much better – there was still Face-humping that i had to stop and only one circling that I had to stop, but otherwise all other “follow the bum, still trying to hump you” chases they figured out all on their own with out me having to interfere at all!! YAY!

AND They were back to snuggling together, but even better! – as for the first time they took turns grooming each other WHILE Laying out side by side…. usually that always turns in to one trying to hump the other by taking advantage of the other one laying out lol – so DOUBLE YAY!

Ok – so question – the temp run/cage area has 3 feet tall sides and is 6 rectangular panels attached together.
I can’t reach over and in to it even touch them, let alone break anything up, if I’m on the outside of it- thats why the fight the other night got as bad as it did, because I couldn’t get in fast enough.

So right now the two edges of that cage paneling are butted up to either ends of the couch (instead of closing them edges to make a circle) so that it added more room for them to roam. – So Picture the cage paneling making a “U” shape with the couch being the top end of the U.
I then have pillows and things pilled on top of the couch to stop them from jumping up on it – as they can then out and free off the arm rests of the couch once they jumped up there lol.

SOOooooo…. if I only pile things up on the two outer ends of the couch and then I sit myself in the middle of the couch (so they still can’t jump up and out) with just my feet on the floor where they are – would that work for kind of removing myself from the area, while still being able to reach in and stop them quickly if they face hump? or start to bunny tornado?
Normally I sit on the floor – so this way I’ll still be inside the high cage panel walls, but not right in the area on the floor as I’ll be up on the couch.

Did that make sense? hahahah

[DanaNM]

Aww that’s great! Sometimes those little tiffs are followed by progress, even though they are scary!

I think sitting on the couch is a good plan! And definitely more cozy! You could even spend the night with them there and sleep on the couch…

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Yes! Sleeping on the couch was definitely my plan haha. But that was when they went hours and hours with out a single problem (obviously not there yet!)
They can’t go more than 15 minutes with out a face hump yet LOL

But I’ll start backing off more now – and OMG Yes, its going to be SOOoo much more comfortable than sitting on the floor for 4 hours!!!!

[Nutmeg]

Hey!!! Ok, update!! Saturday I was able to do 5 hours when my girlfriend was over and Sunday I was able to do the 8 hours after she left (2pm to 10pm)!! YAY!
Oh and last night Penny Groomed ME!!!!!

So lets start with the great news!

1) They flopped together and STAYED that way for 30 minutes!!! Before one would eventually ask for grooming OR get up and try to hump after only a few minutes!

*** Here is a 10 second video (its dark so its a bit blurry) … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6qymc_-NBw Clickable Link of Bunny Snuggles

2) They BOTH ate hay in the litter box, before one would jump out as soon as the other would jump in (no aggression, just kind of like “oh, you’re here?” lol) But this time they were both fine being in there together!!

*** Here is a quick video…. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za6a0TJH7-4 Eating together in the box – Clickable Link

So a bit more info:

~ There was a LOT more Face Humping – More from Penny onto Ruperts face then Rupert on to Pennys. I had to flip up the hidey-homes I had in there as they were face humping in there and I couldn’t see them to know to stop them.
~ One of those face-humps by Penny turned into a circle fight – I pushed Penny off of Ruperts face, to ethier have her hump from the side/back end OR so that I could smoosh pet them – well that did not work and it turned in to a super chase and circling that I had to separate.
*** I Got Bit that time ***
BUT it wasn’t enough to break the skin and the mark went away after a few hours, so I think it would have only been a fur-pull bite if he had gotten Penny instead of me. But still, I’m glad it was me and not her.

The other thing is that it’s been a really stressful 5 days in my house…  We just found out that my husbands truck needs $1,500 in repairs related to the fuel pump module And then two days later the pump for our septic in our house went and that cost $2,000 in replacement parts and repair BUT even worse:  just before that all happened he had quite his job due to unsafe working environments and has also just now found out that regardless of his valid reason he wont qualify for the unemployment he’s been paying in to for the last 5 years…. so we wont have that to help while he finds something else.

SOOoo…. things have been very stressful in the house, so I think they are picking up on that tension, which isn’t helping.

But at least this was a session that had way more good than bad!
Except for even more Facehumping than normal (and it was already too much lol)

[Asriel and Bombur]

This is super exciting! I’m so happy for you guys! I’m curious as to when the humping will stop though. I know Sarah’s Peanut still humps at times, but Buttercup is not about that life xD Fingers crossed you guys continue to see progress!

[Nutmeg]

Oh man A&B – I am SOOooo Ready for the humping to be over. Especially the face-humping (which they do the most) as not only is that the ONLY area that the disputes come from, but also because of the chance of underside biting.
If it was just the odd – from behind – hump that didn’t really lead to any issues then I wouldn’t be as annoyed by it lol.
But I’m still not at a point of not feeling like I need to watch them every second. lol.
And thanks!!!

[DanaNM]

That sounds good over all!

Wen they face hump, have you tried spinning them around so they are on the right end? That’s usually what they do at the shelter here during bonding sessions (and gives the other bun the chance to escape without circling starting).

Have you done any stressing with them?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hey DanaNM

I have tried pushing off to the side to redirect… or even a very subtle lift up to shift… And the other one usually is flipped around & hasn’t run away to try to do the same back…

But sometimes when I push to the side I can get them in position to let them both. I would say 1 in 10 times it results in a correct hump with the one running away.

I haven’t done stress bonding it… Penny gets excessively stressed in the car, to the point that when we got to the vet they had to rush her into the back because they worried she was going into shock. I just don’t want them to relate the other bunny as being the reason for the stress from that kind of bonding.

But I think I’ll try it on a smaller scale that isnt the car?

On the extreme (dont want to jinx it) upside, we are an hour and 10 minutes into our session tonight and there hasn’t been a single face hump!!!!!

[Nutmeg]

Wow sorry – I was doing voice to text so that I didnt have to type that all out while watching them and it butchered it all up Haha
Hope it made sense lol

[DanaNM]

No worries, that makes sense!

I’ll just say stress is a main reason rabbits are social to begin with, so if you get really stuck with the ongoing mounting (like if it’s not getting better with longer sessions), then some light stressing might really help. Many people are hesitant to use it as they think the bond won’t be the same, but that isn’t really the case. They definitely don’t associate the other bunny as the reason for the stress, rather they seek them out for comfort.

A smaller version could be putting them in a bin or carrier together and carrying them around the block, or vacuuming around them for a few minutes.

Definitely have to scale to what is appropriate for your bunnies though!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

That’s a good idea DanaNM!
I always thought of stress bonding as the car and was worried that it would stress Penny too much… they were so worried about the state of her by the time I got to the vet they rushed her right back.
But I like the idea of walking them around the block or even just a shorter car ride around the block!

**** on the upside… almost 2 and a half hours without any Facehumps!!!!!!!!!!
We had 2 almost humps but I just said “whatcha doing Penny” and she went back to grooming him and herself!!

And lots of back and forth grooming and flipping beside each other!!!
So pumped!!

[Nutmeg]

So I would consider yesterday a pretty good success! 4 hours out and the first 3 hours with out a single facehump!!

As I said above, there were a few “almost” face-humps stemming from face-grooming, but I was able to stop them with nothing more than verbally saying their name.

After about 3 hours, when it hit about 9pm, you could see them start to get more of their “evening energy” – which was when Penny finally face-humped Rupert. I was able to move her over and Rupert bolted. She did not chase.
She tried to face-hump him again, which I was again able to move her off.

Rupert tried to hump Penny a few times – but not in the face – she ran off like normal, he did not chase.

*** Otherwise there was a lot of mutual grooming and laying together.
Penny would groom Rupert and instead of Face-humping him like normal she would lay down beside him… Rupert would groom and do the same!!!

*** AND THEY EACH DID A DRAMATIC Bunny Flop beside the other, almost all the way over on to their backs lol.

At 10pm I was half asleep and it had been 4 hours, so I ended it on a good note and put them back.

[DanaNM]

Oh my gosh it seems like things are certainly progressing now! Keep up the good work!

Yay for flops! Mine do that all the time and it is SO STINKING CUTE.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

OMG DanaNM – I just died! I’ve seen them do it on their own, but never together!

And I just did a separate post – but PENNY Groomed ME!!!! Licked me right on the forehead!
I thought Rupert did it too, but my Hubby said she was just eating my hair hahahha

I have never had kisses from them ever before! EEeeeeeee

[DanaNM]

Awwwwww soooo cuuutteee!

Bertha will only groom my leg, and usually when I’m wearing pants lol (not to say I haven’t tried to get her to groom my face!)

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

It was super cute! She wouldn’t do it again last night…. but RUPERT DID! Groomed my forehead for almost a good 30 seconds!
My previous bunny would only ever groom my leg too, and also only when I had pants on.

** Yesterday my hubby sat on the couch to watch them while I got some work done. He said there was more humping that the night before – but no chasing or anything resulting from moving them off or re-positioning. I saw the same behavour when I was with them for the second 2 hours (they were out for about 4.5 hours) but still lots of laying together and grooming!

*** One thing, Penny didn’t devour her pellets this morning like she normally does. She ate a bit and then “lion pose” layed out with her back legs out…. She sat back up as soon as I came over… and she did eat a bit more before I left – but my bunnies usually have it all gone before I even have my shoes on to leave.
My hubby is home job hunting so he’s watching her. I Called when I got to work and he said she had eaten some more but still not all of it, but he thinks she’s ok.
I told him about the baby gas drops in case she does start to look uncomfortable. He wouldn’t feel comfortable bunny burrito wrapping her so I told him to just put it right on the bridge of her nose or on her paws so that she would lick most of it off. It’s not ideal, but its better than nothing.

Just wondering if the stress of picking them up and bringing them upstairs and then picking them up to bring them downstairs is getting to them. Even if I used the carrier I would have to pick them up to put them in it and fight them from jumping back out while I got the cage door back on and latched (it fully comes off with latches at all 4 corners, instead of swinging open and shut – such a stupid design) so I feel that as I have to pick them up anyway that that would be more stressful than just carrying them down securely in my arms.

I do notice their poops can be a bit smaller (especially Penny) after – although Rupert is the one that more verbally vocalizes his displeasure.

[DanaNM]

Bonding can certainly be stressful, even when we try to minimize it.

Don’t worry about taking a day off or two just to make sure everyone is feeling OK. I had to take lots of breaks with my most recent pair, and never really noticed any back tracking unless it was for more than 4 days or so. I had to take some breaks when Bun Jovi started seeming a bit too stressed as well (smaller poops, etc.).

You can try having hubby offer her extra greens all day just to keep her moving in case there is a bit of a slow down.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM.
I was trying to have it so that they only time they were out of their cage was when they were together – But I think you are right. I think as much as things have been going well I will give them today off and let them have their own individual outside play time in their regular down stairs area!

I’m done work in just over an hour and will pick up some mixed greens on the way home. They LOVE Kale, but I’ll stay away from that one for now as it can be gassy to ME, so maybe fore them too….

He said that she seemed to be eating a lot of cardboard off the playhouse tunnel I put in in the upstairs neutral area… so maybe that upset things.

Thanks as always xoxoxo

[Sofia]

Just read through this whole thread, it took me nearly an hour lol! Trying to get as much info as I can before I start bonding my pair

[Nutmeg]

Hi “I’m with Boo” – hahah yes, mine has been a LONG Process (definitely longer than I thought it would be) but I’m really glad it helped you know what to expect. Some peoples bonds go a lot smoother and faster – basically love at first sight
And others have a lot of aggression to get past.
Thankfully mine haven’t been really aggressive at all – its just because they both want to be alpha that this is taking so long.

So the day before yesterday, when I was going to give them a break, I came home and my husband (trying to be helpful – bless him lol) had them both out already. ON the plus side Penny seemed to be back to her old self.

*** There was a LOT of face-humping. No real circle / chasing that had to be broken up though, so that was good.

But I still felt like Penny’s poop seemed very small – and she had been trying to eat a lot of cardboard again – so I removed that and gave them the day off last night and again today. So they will each have about 4 hours each out on their own for individual play time in the normal pen downstairs to give them a break from being picked up and being on high alert around each other.

They did each spend a lot of their alone time out trying to get to where the other one was – not in an aggressive way – so that was good.

[Nutmeg]

Hey!
Ok, so yesterday Penny got one of her front paw nails caught in the carpet and totally bent it sideways. She was gingering her foot – so of course I called the vet to bring her in and have her nails cut and the vet to look at her foot….. and booked Rupert in to get his nails cut at the same time.

I debated on putting them in the same one to bring them there and back… as I was it would be over an hour in the car, plus the time waiting to see the vet, but as my hubby was with me and I could have the carrier with them both in it on my lap I decided to try it for stress bonding.

** Penny does NOT do well in the car… the poor thing was DROOLING … enough that at first I thought she had peed. But they snuggled together for the most part. Rupert groomed a couple of times on the way home as well.

Penny is fine, just a bent nail, but her foot is fine.

I put them out together when we got back. Rupert was pretty much his normal self. Penny took about 20 minutes to start acting normal again and to eat.
After about 40 minutes she did try to hump Ruperts face.. *ugh*… but was easy enough to move off to the side.

After just over an hour they were both snuggled together and SLEEPING! – They have layed out together before, but this is the first time that i have seen them actually relax enough that their eyes were drooping shut!

I had to put them back shortly after – as the vet trip ate up most of the time they could be out with me watching them…. so hopefully things go just as well when my hubby lets them out today!

[Asriel and Bombur]

Aww that’s precious. i love that the stress bonding seemed to really help to further things along. Maybe when you have more time, it would be worth it to stress bond again and then see how long you can do in their current bonding space.

Paws are clapping excitedly over here

[Nutmeg]

Thanks A&B – I felt so bad when she was drooling from the fear. After she calmed down back at home she did try to facehump him again – but almost was like her heart wasn’t in it…. kind of like “Oh, you… I need to dominate you…. I guess”… she was so half ass about it compared to her normal determination lol.

I wont be able to do more than the few hours after work until the weekend – but hopefully I can do a super long one then – if 8 hours goes well with out me having to stop face-humping every 15 minutes (*facepalm*) then maybe even into an over night.

[DanaNM]

Wow that’s great! I mean not about poor Penny’s ordeal, but the sleeping together is a big step!

And nice that you didn’t have to feel too guilty about the stressing, since she had to go anyway! And it sounds like Rupert was doing just what you’d expect and comforting her!

I know the face humping is scary, but I talked to one of my local shelter coordinators about it and she said she doesn’t worry about face humping in bonded pairs… So it might actually never go away? I think you’ll just have to gauge what will be a normal part of their relationship, and what could cause problems.

Anyway, I think I’d be amping up for an overnight when I had time for it.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM – I definitely plan on ramping up the time this long weekend and hopefully into the over night.

That’s interesting… Maybe once the humping no longer turns into any thing I have to break up (its already not every time) I can start to look at the odd hump as part of their relationship for sure. It’s just that the Face-humping scares me – for obvious “biting area” reasons haha. But I’ve never seen either of them really go in to bite the other one.

I didn’t get them out last night as my mom was in the hospital – so they will be out first thing when I get home and all the way until I go to bed tonight.

[DanaNM]

Oh my, hope your mom is ok!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks so much DanaNM – she pulled through the surgery ok thank god!
September has been a month from hell for us – they say things come in 3’s – I’m already at 6!! So hopefully it wont be 3 sets of 3’s haha.
I’m sure the bunnies can sense the tension, as much as I try to hide it from them. So that’s probably not helping either lol.

[DanaNM]

Oh man, and bonding on top of it all! Yes hoping you get to relax soon!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

DanaNM – you and me both! Hubby is trying to do bonding alone today as I have a work engagement AFTER working all day (lol)

But I got the CUTEST 20 second Video of Rupert trying NOT to fall asleep beside Penny!! Seriously – he looks like a toddler fighting nap time!!
(He is behind Penny – Facing the Camera) 

https://youtu.be/YZeCxD0UxsI   —- Rupert Trying Not to Fall Asleep!! (Clickable)  

After an adorable 20 minutes of this it turned in to her grooming him…. and then Humping his FACE, which I had to stop so that he didnt bit her underside, which turned in to them chasing each other  – BUT they worked that out on their own! 

My hubby had them out for about 4 hours, and then I kept them out for another 4 hours after that (So 8 hours total) 
He said there was some face-humping/chasing before I got home. And there was only the one Face-Hump I mentioned above that I saw once I was home. 

But seriously – how cute is that video!?!? 

[DanaNM]

OMG SO CUTE! And with the music! lol

So with the grooming turned to face humping, this reminds me of my first pair, Bunston and Bertha (in my avatar).

Sometimes when Bunston would groom Bertha, she would shove her head so far underneath him that it would trigger him to start humping her face! She never seemed to mind, because I think she just thought it was more grooming!

Is there a chance that is what’s going on with your two?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

I know right?!?!?

It actually really could be for more than 75% of it – as Rupert really does just shove himself right in there. (not always – but a lot of the time)
Penny doesn’t really – she’ll ask for grooms and get them too – but he just violently shoves his way in there.

They only seem to turn in to a circle “must get the butt to hump back” thing when I move them off the face – again not always, but thats the only time it seems to happen.

With regular chasing for humps they have always managed to work it out after a minute of dodging each other.

What happened with your two from that?

[DanaNM]

Well that really happened with mine when they were already bonded! I would push him off if I saw it, but it usually only lasted a few seconds and then it was over. And who knows how often if happened when I wasn’t there!

Bunston would look very pleased with himself and Bertha would look confused lol. Then they would just cuddle. It never lead to any chasing or anything.

I wonder… is the face humping always Penny to Rupert? From him shoving his face under? You might give it a second longer and just see what happens…. I know it’s a bit risky, but if he’s shoving his face under he might just think he’s getting a great face massage LOL

I think I would be more concerned if she was just running up and trying to mount his face, rather than transitioning from grooming to humps.

(side note: This conversation would be hilarious if it was about anything other than rabbits… and even at that it’s pretty funny)

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[sarahthegemini]

Just been catching up with everything and wanted to chime in on the face humping – A&B was right that my Peanut is a face humper. I only catch him doing it once every few months and tbh I think it’s because Buttercup doesn’t stay still to be humped ‘the right way’ So he goes for her face because she doesn’t move. I think it confuses her lol.

[Nutmeg]

DanaNM –

1) For the most part Yes – Penny always starts with giving grooms from requests from Rupert and he DOES shove his head way under there! (He’s demanding lol) The longest they’ve lasted for, before I can get it to stop it, is maybe 6 seconds, but have never stopped on their own yet. ** SO FAR the one on the bottom just stays there with their face pressed to the floor while being face-humped.

~*~ There has been NO More submitting by either of them to proper “from behind” grooming. They will just run off.
2) She will run up to him and give him a few grooms and then go right in for the face-hump – but that’s rare as its usually after 30 seconds or more of grooming before she goes in the face-hump.
3) Rupert will do the odd Face-hump after grooming – but he does normally try to go for the right end and she just takes off and flicks her feet at him lol.

~ They now work every “straight out chase” 100% on their own! (which is almost always Rupert running after her after I’ve stopped a face-hump – almost like he has to the last “Hump”)
~ I do sometimes have to stop them chasing in a circle still (but MAYBE only once a session) where they are both trying to get the other ones butt – almost like a dog chasing its tail.
~ Otherwise its all just the face-humping from grooming. *** SO FAR

* Sarahthegemini – Oh man – I would LOVE for it to get to once every few months, instead of once every few hours hahahah I really hope she does not become a “Serial Face-Humper” LMAO

~*~ Ok so maybe tonight I will try to let the facehump go on a bit longer and watch for negative reactions from the one on the bottom (which I will interfere if I see) and just see how they work it out on their own…. They never just go in for a bite or a nip anymore (the only tuff of fur I ever see pulled is from gripping on during a hump) but its still a scary thought of a belly bite.

[Nutmeg]

Ok – so last night they were out for 4 hours.

I allowed the Face-humping – with close supervision of course.

It was 100% Penny doing the Facehumping – Rupert did try to go for the side hump, but no face.

Almost every time Rupert would stay with his head against the floor and she would stop after about 4 seconds and nothing came of it.

Only ONCE did she stop after a few seconds, get off and then go to get right back on again – did it turn into something I had to break up. I think that time it was because when she stopped Rupert had a second to compose himself and then she started again and he wasn’t having it. He started to try to get out from under her – so at that point I stopped her by moving her to the side. Before I could try to pet them both they started to circle going for each others butts. – that again I broke up. Then Rupert started chasing Penny, which I did not have to stop as he stopped trying after a few seconds.

So there was 5 face-humps in 4 hours and only one I had to interfere with. Oh man it went against everything I had to allow it – but I’m thinking that I had to allow it to help them move past it and figure out their pecking order.

There was still lots of mutual grooming, eating together, sharing the litter box and snuggling. 

** I’m hoping to do the over night this weekend! 

Thoughts??

[DanaNM]

Ah ok, so this is informative I think!

The initial humping seems like it’s trigger by the grooming, but then the fact that she went back for more caused the issues. So yes it seems like they still haven’t worked out all the details of their arrangement! Stubborn buns!

I think an overnight would be good, or at least an all day. You might try having them together all day and see how they do. Things will tend to get active at night and that’s when problems flair, so it might be good to do a stress session in the evening and then continue the marathon after that. It seemed like they made progress after the last stress session, so more could help!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

DanaNM – Ahhhhhhhh – I Know! That was my thought too, but I didn’t want to write that in case I was wrong and jinx it… but yes, I agree. I think they are still figuring out their pecking order.
Frigging butt heads!

It feels like its been 5 YEARS not 5 weeks hahaha.

Good idea to see how they are doing after the full day.
And at least they aren’t full out fighting – but I don’t want to jinx it and have something happen where they hold grudges.

So should I still let the face-humping happen when it comes from being groomed? Maybe Penny will eventually stop thinking she’s got her point accross? LOL

[Nutmeg]

YAY! We are 3 hours in and we’ve only had 2 facehumps!!!!

[Nutmeg]

Ok – so we had our over night session this weekend!!

So we started out with 10 hours out together first. Things were going really well. There was only a few face-humps – mostly all Penny to Rupert. But nothing happened where I had to interfere or break anything up. Everything else was great – lots of snuggling together and grooming eachother, sharing the litterbox and eating hay out of it at the same time and even after any small hump chase (again, that they worked out on their own) they would run right back together to hang out… So I’m thinking that if we can get past the dominance humping the rest will be easy!

So I decided to go in for the long haul and got comfortable on the couch… man that couch is NOT comfortable for sleeping on lol. But that’s ok as I did not get any sleep anyways lol.
I think I was mostly on high alert and was too worried I would sleep through a fight to actually sleep hahah. So I got maybe 30min of sleep at any given time lol Just more dozing in and out.

They were way more active over night, but it was funny – one would be sitting up while the other was laying down, and they would take turns. They spent more time trying to figure out escaping the caged in area together. There was some snuggling when they would tire themselves out. There was 2 times where Penny would hump Ruperts face… It’s almost like she knows if she goes at him from behind that he would run away, but if she humps his face he kind of just stays there – and for the most part Rupert will only try to hump penny after she’s humped him… he doesn’t really initiate it.

They were then out for another 8 hours the following day (the day after) and they were again great.. lots of snuggling and even less face-humping… I think Penny only Face-humped Rupert twice the entire time.

It was Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada – so it was about 36 hours they were out together.
There was Zero fighting. Zero chasing. Just about 7 face-humps in that entire time from Penny – abut nothing lead to anything I had to break up.

I’m thinking we are almost there – PLEASE Can we be almost there? lol

[DanaNM]

That sounds really great!

I think the fact that nothing went crazy overnight is super positive. The fact that you are seeing less and less humping is also really positive.

I agree that you are almost there!

Way to go!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM!

Question – So their main area downstairs is what I would consider Semi-Neuteral and is also where they will forever live.I’m wondering if its time to try them in there with some changes too it….. 

Before they shared that area as their run around time – taking turns in it obviously, but it always smelled like both of them and they could always see the other bunny when they were out running around.

I’ve bought a new carpet for that area (and will throw out the old one) and am going to pull the whole thing out from the wall and really clean the floors underneath it in case any pee got through… This will make it even more semi-neuteral – and I’ve obviously been swapping cages this whole time.

The goal is to have them have 24/7 free-roam of this area together with just the one, larger, cage in it in case they want to use it.

** Do you think now would be a good time to start transitioning in to that space? It’s still going to feel sort of new with the new carpet and moving stuff around, but also familiar.
My plan was to have them supervised out in that space together, locking them back in separate cages (swapping which one each day) when I go to work and such and then hopefully they will fully bond in there and I can remove the other cage and just leave them there all the time.

This way I also wont have to pick them up twice a day to carry them upstairs and back down each time – I’ll just have to let them out of their cages.

What do you think?

This would be the space…. but the carpet thats in it will be replaced and I’ll re-arrange it a bit. ( This photo is from when they first came home and hadn’t been separated yet – and I have since built the NIC Cube walls up another foot and a half so that they can’t jump out and added a swing door that latches so that I can get in and out hahah)

[DanaNM]

So, with Bertha and Bun Jovi, I went straight from the neutral marathon space to their final home. I would have preferred a better intermediate, but it was clear that my whole apartment was not neutral. So, I opted to clean and rearrange their condo as best I could. I put in new fleece, completely flipped the organization (so the levels were on the opposite sides, wiped down every hard surface with vinegar solution, etc. All new toys, plus the litter box they had been using the neutral space.

By the time I moved them there, they had been living together in neutral for about 5 days. It worked out great with no issues at all.

What I found was that after a few days in neutral, I felt comfortable leaving them alone in that space, especially during the day when they were sleepy. Every pair is different, but I found that after 48 hours of no fights or arguments, I felt really comfortable with them, and considered them bonded, but only in that specific space.

Once I transitioned them to the new area, I supervised 24 hrs again for another 2 days or so.

So, I wouldn’t start moving to their permanent home until you feel confident leaving them alone in neutral (basically you feel they are bonded in neutral).

It might even be best to “cement” them in neutral, and leave them together there 100%, and then when you have another weekend free you can transition them to the new space. That time together in the neutral space will help them be less familiar with their permanent space.

Your plan could work though, I’m just wondering if locking them in separate cages next to their main area could lead to them being a bit territorial over those spaces? The transition to non-neutral or semi-neutral usually goes more smoothly if the area is as “new” to them as possible.

In any case, if you feel they are still working out some kinks in their dominance, don’t start them in semi-neutral just yet.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Ahhhh gottcaha! That makes so much sense! – So another quick question for you…. (I know, I’m sorry lol)

 
The problem is we can’t leave them out in the 100% neutral area upstairs all the time unless I am home and with them, as its not fully our space. It’s a shared area and I’m starting to get some “side comments” about them wanting the living room back… (in their defense it has been 3 weeks and the upstairs is just the living room/kitchen – where I’ve taken over 70% of it with the temp bunny area – with a hallway off of that and their bedrooms lol – so they have been patient with not having use of that space much.)

So leaving the bunnies out in it for 5 days straight isn’t possible as they want me to be there when they are out – and my boss wants me to be at work… soooo… lol.

What about a different semi-neuteral space? They will have never been to this spot of the house before, but they can still SMELL their old area…
It would be back downstairs to my domain – where they would still smell their area, but it would on the full other side of the room?
** Its an open concept basement, so picture upstairs with a hallway and 3 bedrooms and a bathroom, but in the finished basement its all one giant room with some support beams. So the other side of the room is like 2 bedrooms away from their normal area.

Then I could do it around my work area, so that I can still get work done while they are at my feet and its back in my area, so if they wreck anything while I’m at work – once I trust them to that point – it wont be a big deal.

What do you think?

PS – Seriously THANK YOU For all the time you’ve spent helping me!! 

[Nutmeg]

* Oh and if you like that idea, should I put the new carpet down that I have already bought for their permanent home in this new semi-neuteral space?
So then when I move them to their permanent home this would then be the same carpet they will be on over there?
(did that make sense? lol)
Or leave that carpet to help make the permanent home seem even more new then the semi-neutral space they would be coming from?
(did THAT make sense? haha)

[DanaNM]

Ah, I should clarify! I don’t think you actually need to have them together for 5 days. That was just what worked for my schedule. Basically after they were together for 48 hours i felt comfortable leaving them alone in neutral, but couldn’t supervise during the day for another few days (I had to work too!). So rather than separate, I opted to leave them together in neutral until I was ready to supervise 24/7 again. Not everyone would feel comfortable with this, but with mine, I could tell they would be fine. (I feel like with my two, things just “clicked” all of the sudden).

Where are they currently living?

That space you describe sounds like a great semi-neutral space! Within smell, but not site. And easier for you to do some work as well. At this point you really just need to be in easy reach of them, but not hovering like in the early sessions.

When you first try them in the new spot, start them off in the familiar neutral space for an hour or so, then move them to the new area together.

I would keep the carpet as clean and new as possible, so save it for the final move

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM – I can’t move them from Neuteral to semi-neuteral in one move as I need that cage links that i use upstairs to section off the new area downstairs hahaha. But I’ll try and figure something else… maybe putting them in a carrier together to move them and just leave them in it for the 10 minutes setting up the new one takes.

Thanks again! You’re my hero!!

[DanaNM]

I think having them together in the carrier while you re-arrange would be just fine

And you’re welcome! It’s been fun tracking your progress!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Ok – so I got stuck late at work yesterday and then we went out for dinner because I didn’t have time to go grocery shopping lol, so we had the bunnies out but just left it with the upstairs set up as they could only be out for about 3 hours before I went to bed…..

BUT in those 3 hours Penny only tried to Face-hump Rupert ONCE and Rupert ran away from him and she didn’t even chase him in the slightest!

Lots of over exaggerated flops beside each-other too!

I think the problem is that while they both want to be the dominant one Penny is just BETTER at being dominant than Rupert – but Rupert doesn’t want to fully admit that yet! That’s why this is just taking so long lol.

[DanaNM]

It really does sound like they are almost there! Stubborn buns!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Right?!?! So Stubborn.lol

[Nutmeg]

Nothing really new to report lol

So 6 hours out last night after work – still in the same place upstairs. More Face-humping from Penny to Rupert and Rupert did try to Face-hump Penny, but she’s bigger than him, so she just sort of “Stands Up” and runs out from underneath him. He pretty much just stay’s still while she does it. She kind of facehumps for a few seconds, pauses and kind of holds him there and then does it again for a few more seconds.

It still feels so strange not interfering – but neither of them ever try to bite the other one. I’ve never seen them even Nip to communicate (since the first week anyway) but more just nudge with their nose.

I now feel comfortable leaving them (out of sight) to go to the bathroom or to go across the room (so still in eye sight, but a good 15 feet away) to cook dinner.

I really think that a longer sessions this weekend will be a big help and I’ll move the space downstairs for that so that I can get some work done  

[Nutmeg]

Hey – sorry no update – I’ve been super sick.

So We had them out ALL day on Saturday, with how sick I was I could not spend then night on the couch, so we put them back after 11 hours. There was a LOT more humping then normal – mostly from Penny and only once by Rupert that I saw. But again – nothing I needed to break up and no chasing resulted from it at all.

Sunday we took them out again first thing in the morning (all of this has still been upstairs where we’ve been for neutral) and I kept them out all Night! This was their second over night.
******* I did not see ANY Humping that whole day Sunday and I wasn’t woken up by anything either… I set my alarm every hour to make sure *****

I have been trusting them to go to the washroom or grab a glass of water – so this was HUGE!
I had to put them back before I went to work – but if it wasn’t for the fact that I was more worried they would get out of the set up I have upstairs I actuall feel like I would have been fine leaving them out together for a few hours while i went to work.

[DanaNM]

That’s really great!

Making it through an overnight with no issues is huge!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM – I’m finally starting to see a light at the end of this VERYYyyy Long tunnel lol

[Asriel and Bombur]

That’s awesome! So excited for you guys! Maybe in the next few weeks we’ll see a lovely pair

And taking lots of this advice throughout this thread as I restart my boys tonight.

[Nutmeg]

OMG I Hope so A&B !!! I’m ready to pull both my hair out and their fur out hahaha

And OMG YAYYYyyy for trying the boys again! Can’t wait to start reading your updated Journal.
Can you believe that I was resorting to allowing Face-humping? lol It actually has helped though. Just shows that sometimes the “normal” rules don’t apply to all. lol

[Asriel and Bombur]

in the words of T-Swift sometimes you just gotta shake it off shake it off

[Nutmeg]

HAHAH now I’m going to have that song stuck in my head all day lol

[Nutmeg]

So they were out for over 12 hours yesterday and things were still going well. I did see Penny face-hump Rupert twice but he just stayed still and didn’t react. Nothing to break up.
SOOOooo We decided to leave them out over night again.

So this is the set up… I have paneled cage fencing that I use for when they are out side that is 3 feet high. In order to make the space bigger instead of closing it off I put the two ends up to the two sides of the couch. Usually I am sleeping on the couch when they are out at night, but they kept jumping on me last night and waking me up every 10 minutes lol – SO I decided to pile the couch higher then the fencing (4.5 feet) with pillows and blankets and even our winter coats so that they couldn’t jump up on it. This worked for the whole 12 hours they were out.

Fast forward to the night time… I’m on the smaller couch on the outside. Wake up to sounds and they are BOTH Out!!!! I managed to grab Penny and put her back and in – but OMG it took me 15 minutes to get Rupert, along with waking up my husband as he bolted in to the bedroom – and managed to squeeze himself behind our dresser.

Oh Man! I’m thinking they hopped the actual fenced part? They’ve never tried to jump over it before… and would only jump on the couch… Wish I had a nanny “bunny” cam set up for playbacks lol

My goal is to have them downstairs this weekend – as they really have been doing well – but now I wonder if Bunny Land will not be secure enough?

The Nic cubes I made up the walls with are 3 feet tall. I’m thinking I should go buy more and make it over 4 feet tall?

[Asriel and Bombur]

At least they were good! That’s the important thing xD I think 4ft minimum is a good idea. Az is quite a terror and can easily clear 3-4ft.

[Nutmeg]

Very True! I’ve just never seen them jump a fence before… Jump up on to things – like the couch and stuff yes – but not over fencing lol.
Little buggers.

I’m going to have to add Wood to help secure it with that height lol. 

How did yours do yesterday??? 

[Asriel and Bombur]

Rather disappointing. They picked up right where they left off 2 months ago, and I had them in neutral territory. It lasted maybe 2 minutes. Bombur immediately was demanding to be groomed, and Az finally said no, and Bombur in typical Bombur fashion decided to bum sniff because he didn’t get his way. Which of course led into the oh so wonderful circling. As soon as we separated them and left Bombur out for play time he was the happiest little bunny.

I’m really wondering if he’s a people bunny and Az is a bunny bunny. If that makes any sense? Even when we picked them up from the breeder she said she didn’t think Bombur was ever going to bond with another bunny. She said all of his littermates used to play and he would be by himself trying to get through the bars on the gate to be with people.

[DanaNM]

Little rascals! Now they get to get into trouble TOGETHER! The joy of bonded bunnies

Glad they did fine though! Nothing like bonding to teach you how high you bunnies can actually jump!

Sounds like they are ready to move to the new area

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM – OMG they looked so proud of themselves too lol… and yes that’s what I’m thinking too!

As I’m going to have to fully clean out their cages and change the carpet and re-arrange everything to make it a bit more “new”, I will probably have them upstairs for the rest of the week while i get it all ready.
Plus I wont have time to watch them in the new area for long periods until the weekend anyways.

So excited to finally have these two together full time and no longer needing to lock them in a cage ever again!

** I’m thinking Penny will always hump Rupert from time to time… I’m hoping I’m wrong, and maybe she’s just trying to “drive” her point home lol, but its never escalating anymore. I just want to make sure it stays that way in their permanent space

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a good plan! Having them upstairs for the week will be a good way to cement things before the move.

Yes, some pairs just have their little quirks. As long as it isn’t escalating, and Rupert doesn’t seem to mind, then I think it will be OK.

For example, with Bertha and Bun Jovi, Bun Jovi will chase Bertha for a few seconds about once a night. It’s not aggressive or fast, but it’s rather a slow, ears forward chase, as if he wants to mount. But never actually tries to mount? If she stops, he just stops. It’s kind of funny, almost reminds me of kids playing tag. They always end up cuddling and grooming right after, so it seems it’s just part of their dynamic.

It alarmed me at first, but I spoke to one of the leaders at my local rescue and she said she has a couple pairs that do this every day as well.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Posted By Asriel and Bombur on 10/16/2018 8:40 AM

Rather disappointing. They picked up right where they left off 2 months ago, and I had them in neutral territory. It lasted maybe 2 minutes. Bombur immediately was demanding to be groomed, and Az finally said no, and Bombur in typical Bombur fashion decided to bum sniff because he didn’t get his way. Which of course led into the oh so wonderful circling. As soon as we separated them and left Bombur out for play time he was the happiest little bunny.

I’m really wondering if he’s a people bunny and Az is a bunny bunny. If that makes any sense? Even when we picked them up from the breeder she said she didn’t think Bombur was ever going to bond with another bunny. She said all of his littermates used to play and he would be by himself trying to get through the bars on the gate to be with people.

Oh now A&B – sorry I missed your reply – That is so frustrating! My Rupert is the biggest “give me grooms” jerk! But thankfully Penny, who wants to be Alpha, will still give in and give them to him…. made this whole process take longer as it was mixed signals – but I didn’t have to deal with a “grooming Frustrated” bunny fight. 

He could be! He could just be an introvert bunny who doesn’t play well with others? I have one of those – its called my Husband lol. 
At least he has you and seeks companionship that way? My two could usually care less that I’m around haha. 

Big Hugs! I was hoping the time apart would have changed things a bit! 

[Nutmeg]

Thanks DanaNM! Ya I’m thinking as the amount is already lessioning that she does it – and also Ruperts not really reacting to it – that things will just lesson from her.

And LOL I can just picture that in my head… She stops and he’s like “wait… you stopped… now what?” lol. So Cute!
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that I have weird bunnies lol.

[Nutmeg]

Hey! Sorry for missing yesterday. I have been super sick – but the upside is this gave me time to Marathon Bond them!!!

Tuesday when I got home from work I took them both out and brought them upstairs… first Rupert and then Penny… When I was bringing Penny upstairs she Ninja jumped right out of my arms when I was near the top of the stairs! She didn’t even squirm first – just thrashed and jumped.. I posted another post about it on the forum, but basically she hit the stairs at my feet, and while jump freaking went between the banister railings and straight down 10 feet to the floor bellow!!
I FREAKED obviously, but miraculously she was fine and is still ok!!

So I brought her back up after looking her over and put her in with Rupert. They stayed that way for the evening – I decided to re-rig the makeshift pen by fully closing it off and not using the couch, so that they couldn’t jump up on there to get out… then I made each panel of fencing go at an angle – making like a hectagon shape instead of a circle and put pillows across those angles, essentially making a half roof / lip around the whole thing.

I then left them out over night and watched them – no problems at all!

So Wednesday (yestersay) morning I called in sick to work and just left them out all day… again no problems and I did Not See a Single Hump at all!!!

So last night I left them out again – and again no issues at ALL !!!

*** I did notice that they don’t really snuggle together at night – I guess its because they are at their most active at night? But every time I opened my eyes they were doing their own thing, or one would be loafing while the other was doing something.

** I also find that during the day they seem to groom eachother pretty equally.. Rupert usually requests grooms first… Penny gives them for a minute or two and then lay’s out beside him.. then he grooms her a minute or two and then flop down beside her.

So I had to go back to work today – I still feel like garbage, but we need the money lol – so I took a leap of faith and have left them out while I’m gone.
I’m more nervous that they will get out and destroy the house/wires/carpet as I’m comfortable that they wont fight. lol

Finger and toes and everything crossed!

[DanaNM]

Way to go!

Sounds like they are practically there! **Fingers and toes crossed here too!**

I felt like with mine once they bonded they did just go about their normal bunny business, and then cuddle during the times they would normally rest and sleep, so that all sounds normal to me!

Good job!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

YAY Thanks DanaNM! And that’s good to know!

As of writing this they will have been out for over 44 hours straight together – So I’m going to give them today / tonight still together upstairs in neutral – as much as I’m being pushed to get them back downstairs they can suck it up lol – to really nail it home…. then this weekend I’m going to move their “play area” away from the wall and super clean / vinegar the floor underneath that 8×10 foot area – totally replace the carpet – change things around a bit and then move them in.

That way I have the full weekend to keep an eye on things in this new area

Thank you again, SO MUCH, for all your help!!!!!!! xoxoxoxoox

[DanaNM]

Sounds like a great plan!

You’re welcome, and good job!!!!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hello
No real update – left them out again all night and again today while I’m at work (thankfully they hadn’t escaped while I was at work yesterday – fingers crossed they don’t today lol) ,
I did notice Rupert trying to hump Penny last night… he is never successful, as Penny just runs away lol but I hadn’t seen him try in days.
Then this morning Penny did Face-hump him once – nothing came of it… probably her just reminding him to stop trying to hump her lol. They were snuggling when I left.

[Asriel and Bombur]

This is super exciting!!! Maybe we’ll come back from the weekend with a beautiful bonded pair Guess my cheerleading worked wonders hahaha me and the boys are wishing you guys continued success! <3

[Nutmeg]

Yay!! Thanks A&B!! You and the boys have been the best cheer leaders!!
Fingers, toes, arms, legs and everything crossed!!!!

[Nutmeg]

Hey!!! Ok so some updates

On Saturday I spent 5 hours fully disinfecting under the bunny play land area, replacing the carpet, changing things around, cleaning out the larger cage and removing the smaller one and them put them right down in there.

No fighting, no humping, no tiffs of any kind!!!!!!!!

** However, I did notice that they haven’t been as cuddly as they were when they were upstairs. But I’m wondering if its the new carpet that’s down there? It’s not as soft as the old one was – as I went with one that was more tightly woven to make it harder for them to chew at it, plus its “new” so stiffer – as I didn’t even see individual flopping.

So this morning I put a old worn small towel down that used to be in their old area. I’m at work, and my hubby is home today to keep an eye on things, but I did see Rupert laying on it when I went down before I left – he obviously hopped up as soon as he heard me lol.

They have now been together since Wednesday straight. I just want to see the snuggles again.

[DanaNM]

That’s great!!! I logged in specifically to look for this update

I vaguely remember Bertha and BJ weren’t quite as cuddly right when I moved them home, but then it got back to where it was before after a day or two.

So happy for you that the move went well!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

HEY!!! Yes, sorry its so hard to get online on the weekends.

I was so happy it went mostly well – mostly as in no snuggling – as you never know when you change spots – especially in to one that they were used to being in alone as they used to take turns. I guess I did a good enough job making it seem super new and smell super new.

My hubby was like “ok, so I’m just going to throw out this other cage then”… Umm NOOOooooo we may need it down the road.. hopefully not, but cages aren’t cheap out this way for decent sized ones lol.

So hoping they go back to being snuggly – it was the cutest thing ever!!
But so GLAD there has been no fighting or territory / dominance displays.

[Nutmeg]

Ok – so we had a small set back last night…. in that I was working in my work area that is on the other side of the room from Bunny land when I could hear them moving around a lot more than normal… so I look up and Rupert was trying to hump Penny but Penny kept running away.

So I decided to go in and sit with them – I fed them their Kale (I rip it up into a bunch of pieces and just kind of toss it so they forage around for it) and found that the fought over (not viciously – just the cute tug of war kind of thing lol) over the first few pieces and then were find to forage looking for the rest.

Then after they were done I noticed that Rupert kept going up and trying to hump Penny, he would actually get up enough to attach and then SHE would GRUNT and run off. He wouldn’t “chase” her, but he would follow her after a few seconds and then try again – she would Grunt again and run off.

I did NOT see her try to hump HIM at all.

My husband said that he didn’t see them really snuggling during the day together. But they are eating hay together and all of that.

This is totally backwards from what was happening upstairs before I moved them down. I expected her to try to hump him back to put him in his place, but nope.

There was Grooming ‘head-down’ face-off’s as well. I pet them both during this time and Rupert would groom Penny when ever I stopped. Penny would only quickly groom Rupert and then groom herself.

I left them out over night as nothing was happening that i had to interfere with and set my alarm to check on them every hour in case them making sounds didn’t wake me (Soooo Tired) … but I didn’t see anything really happening. I did find a very small clump of fur – like the size of my pinky fingernail small -in the morning.

They both ate their pellets this morning just fine. So I’ve left them for the day while my hubby and I are both at work – as I didn’t see anything that lead me to believe that a fight will break out – as it never really has with them.

But they are definitely back to arguing over their pecking order again and Penny isn’t taking it – but she isn’t dishing it out like she was upstairs either.
*SIGH*

[DanaNM]

Hmmm that can happen, especially if the move is a big jump. It might help to do some stressing with them, but hopefully they’ll sort it out without any issues.

Not sure this is possible with your set up, but you could move them to the old space when you’re not home, then back to the new space when you’re home?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hey DanaNM – No, unfortunatley its not possible. They were on their last straw with them upstairs, and already gave me that extra week to marathon them…

Especially once I moved them down and they saw the massive amounts of pee-stains on their carpet that was behind the litter box I put down – from before I added the litter box – as I cleaned it as best as I could, but with Ruperts Pee being a more orange colour it super stained the carpet and 5 cleans later there is still a slight stain

I’m really hoping everything is fine when I get home. But yes, stress bonding may be in the cards – I’ll also sit in there with them tonight and work on giving pets during grooming stand offs like I did a few weeks ago when they were upstairs.

[DanaNM]

Ah I see, well fingers crossed they are all good when you get home!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hey! Yes they were fine when I got home (*wipes sweat off forehead*)

Things were better last night – not back to what they were upstairs fully – but they flopped together with their heads smushed together!

And I saw Penny Face-hump Rupert again – I know I shouldn’t be excited about that lol – but she’s putting him back in his place and nothing came of it. She stopped he hoped up and a few small hops away (so they were maybe a foot or two away from each other) and she didn’t follow him – just started grooming herself with a “ya, thats right!” attitude lol.

So I think we are still well on our way!!

[DanaNM]

Whew! That’s a relief!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

I know! I was getting a bit worried!

[Nutmeg]

Nothing new to report – which is a good thing lol
I’m not at a point where I would say I’m never worried about coming home to a fight – but things are still slowly getting better with the cuddling.
I didn’t see any humping yesterday.
Doesnt’ mean it didn’t happen when I was at work or in bed lol, but that still means they are well on their way to having their stuff figured out!

[DanaNM]

Yep, I’d say no news is good news at this point. Glad you’re seeing an increase in cuddling!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Me too! I missed that cuteness!!

[Asriel and Bombur]

Just popping in to say I’ve been following still, but wanted to wait to say something till they were BB official. I’m super stoked for you though! Maybe after this weekend you’ll be able to officially call them bonded

[Nutmeg]

Hey A&B !!! Thanks so much! Me too!!!
It will help me feel more comfortable declaring that when I can be home all day to keep an eye on them and watch to insure they aren’t still humping for dominance… I didn’t see any at all yesterday, but as I wasn’t home or awake for all of it I can’t be 100% sure hahahah
But I didnt’ see any tuff’s of fur or anything when I got home/work up

[Nutmeg]

Well….. Drum Roll Please….. We can officially call them BONDED!!!
I kept a good eye on them while I was off this weekend and there was NO Humping or Chasing at ALL
They did most things together & some things a part…

They still aren’t as fully cuddly as there were upstairs – with the dramatic flopping – but I honestly think that’s because the carpet is still new and scratchy and not soft and worn in like the old one was – as they aren’t really doing a lot of flopping in general down there. But they did loaf together and cuddle with their back legs stretched out behind them.

It’s so funny when I go to feed them their pellets in the morning!!
They kind of chase eachother around in circles – but not in a “fighting” kind of way – its like they are trying to see if the other one has found food yet LOL.

So happy to know I never have to lock them in a cage again!!! I just left one in there in case they want to go in – but the door is always open.
(although I obviously kept the extra cage just in case)

Thank you so much DanaNM and A&B (and everyone else) for ALL your HELP and thoughts and suggestions during this LONGGGgggg Process
*insert happy dance*

[Asriel and Bombur]

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO! THIS is the post I’ve been waiting for! Congrats girlfriend and enjoy watching all those bunny snuggles!

[Sofia]

Yay!! Finally you get a break

[Nutmeg]

Thanks so MUCH A&B!!!!!
Your the cheerleading 100% helped!!!

And thanks so much I’m with Boo!!! So much of a break did I need ahahah

[Nutmeg]

Thanks so MUCH A&B!!!!!
Your the cheerleading 100% helped!!!

And thanks so much I’m with Boo!!! So much of a break did I need ahahah

[DanaNM]

This is wonderful! I was hoping to see this update soon!

Congrats to you and the happy couple!

Oh and yes, I know the pellet dance all too well! Mine practically trip me every time I feed them!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Yay! I was waiting for you to see this!!
Thank you SO Much again for everything DanaNM!

This whole thing would have taken so much longer with out your help pushing me to just trust them and allow them to do things that would normally be stopped because you took the time to learn what my rabbits personalities were like!

Big Hugs xoxoxo

[Doodler]

Congratulations on the bonding Nutmeg!!! I was following your journey and am so happy for all of you. Hopefully some of the advice you received will also help me with my boys. I need all the help I can get .

[Gordo and Janice]

Wow. Congratulations. That was a long time coming. Much respect for your patience and persistence. And such an excellent journal.

[Nutmeg]

Thanks so much Doodler – I hope something from my journey will help you! Good luck with your boys!

Hey Gordo & Janice – Omg! It was such a long time coming! Thank you so much. It was well worth it!

[DanaNM]

You’re so welcome! I’m so happy it helped!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Sirius&Luna]

I just popped into BB, and I’m so happy to see this! Congrats, you worked really hard for it!

[Nutmeg]

Thanks so much S&L !!! Oh man, what a Process – but SOOoooo Worth it!!!
Half way through even my husband was like “Ummm Maybe I should have only got you One, not two” hahahhaha
He’s just as attached to them

[Author]

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