Bonding help please * Progress Thread*

[C C]

Ok, so in case anyone is still reading this thread I’ve decided to keep my most current updates on page 1 (this page) to save on trawling through the various pages that may crop up. 

**UPDATE**

So Bell has now been back from her spaying operation for almost a week and a half. At first Carbon was so keen on grooming her that he was pulling out her stitches (so she was stapled) and staples (so she was glued and bandaged) and bandages . Far too keen ha ha!. Anyway, she is now fully healed and very happy so she has moved with Carbon into a brand new hutch which I have bought for them. 

The reason for the hutch is to keep the room as a neutral territory that all 3 bunnies can enjoy. By allowing Carbon and Bell free roam the room became their “patch” meaning that Cub never felt comfortable when he came out for play time. Now Cub is much happier with the room and Carbon and Bell still get to come out to play too!

My desire to bond all three bunnies though has taken a bit of a knock. Firstly, I’m no longer as desperate to get them all bonded. Carbon and Bell are very happy together which is lovely to watch but Cub also seems just as happy on his own. He has plenty of toys which he loves to toss, a patch to dig in and gets to come out to play often enough.The second knock is (perhaps a mistake on my part) my decision to let all 3 bunnies out at the same time. I wanted to see how they would interact as a group. Cub is clearly the pro-active bunny and ran around nipping Carbon and Bell. He managed to pull fur from both but no (physical) injuries sustained. What’s challenging is that he didn’t seem interested in dominance i.e. there were no attempts to mount and he wasn’t really interested in seeking grooming. He was simply too preoccupied chasing and pulling fur from both Carbon and Bell’s bums. Both Carbon and Bell would run away, thumping and occasionally whimpering. Unfortunately there wasn’t a positive to end the meeting on so they were all put back in their respective homes and given a chance to calm down before being given treats. 

**Original Post**

Hi there folks, 

I’m looking for some help and advice re. bonding my two young rabbits. 

Their names are Carbon + Cub and they are both male Dutch rabbits around 6 months old. 

Just before Christmas I had them both neutered and they have recovered well. 

Ok, so first of all some background (key points in bold for skim readers):

I bought Carbon and Cub from our local pet store about two months ago. They were the last two rabbits left in the enclosure and clearly had a special relationship. Everything they did they did together. My GF and I were only looking for one rabbit but it would have been a crime to split this pair so we took both. 

When we bought them we bought a single Ferplast 120 Rabbit cage (suitable for 2 rabbits according to store staff) and the usual rabbit items. 

Upon getting home, we set up the cage and they both settled in quite quickly. Being inexperienced and excited however my GF and I didn’t quite give them the recommended “3 days no contact” and were in the room with them letting them run around and sniff their new surroundings (as well as peeing a LOT!).

It became clear quite quickly that they have very different personalities: Carbon (the bigger one) is very inquisitive and loves to follow me around. He is very energetic and confident. Cub on the other hand is the complete opposite: very shy, loves to thump and generally lives in his tunnel. He does venture out now and again and when he does he can sprint flippin’ fast – easily much faster than Carbon. 

So fast forward a few weeks and Carbon (the slightly bigger one) starts mounting Cub and honking. At first we found it quite amusing as we assumed he was beginning to feel amorous towards Cub (funny because they are both boys) however Cub was slower to develop so we joked about whether Carbon didn’t realise Cub was a boy. Anyway at first Cub didn’t seem to mind but over the days he began to start running away from Carbon. They still lay next to each other and shared food/ litter/ water but when Carbon started honking Cub started running. So I took them to the vet and had them neutered together. The mounting and honking died down while they were healing but resumed shortly after, this time Cub was having a go at mounting Carbon though too! 

But despite the mounting they were getting on really well, still loving each others company and always lying next to each other. 

This gradually progressed until one night we came home and found the room covered in fur (at this point we had started giving the rabbits free run of our spare room – much to our carpets demise). I checked their “burrow” and found them lying next to each other. I examined both and Carbon was bleeding around his genitals which were quite swollen. Immediately I separated them and took them both to the vet the next morning. 

Since then Carbon has made a full recovery. During examination several minor wounds were found on both rabbits (back mainly) where they have obviously been biting each other. 

This was about 3 weeks ago. Since the “incident” both rabbits have been kept separate. I only have one cage so I’m improvised with the different parts and some boxes to make two living areas side by side so that the rabbits can see each other but can’t munch each other. 

I have tried allowing them contact to each other but this usually progresses quite quickly into a stand-off/ fight. 

Current situation:

Currently I’m hoping to re-bond Carbon and Cub. I’ve started introducing them on neutral territory however I’m not sure if it’s had much effect. 

Basically since their fight their behaviours have swapped. Carbon (the previously confident “bigger brother”) now becomes very still and (what I’d say) unsure around Cub. Cub has become far more… purposeful and seem to know exactly what he wants to do. Most of the time they end up facing each other, each trying to get their head under the other. This is peaceful enough until one moves at which point it either becomes a chase (almost always Cub chasing Carbon and biting him) or the “circle of death” where they chase and bite each other. Although it has come to this a few times I break it up almost instantly. 

What I’m unsure about is that I’ve watched a few vids on YouTube about bonding and they show (usually) one rabbit dominating the other (mounting, nipping, seeking attention) however neither of my rabbits are interested in mounting. They only seem to care about grooming. 

I hope I’ve provided enough information for some advice. Apologies it’s a bit of a book but hopefully the context helps. 

Thanks for your help. 

A. 

[tanlover14]

Hey there! Congrats on the new(ish) babies!

Well, to start off, they were obviously quite close before but in young buns this can be assumed as “bonded” when really they are not. Younger bunnies are usually always close to their siblings or mates. When those hormones begin to kick it, it can cause quite the disaster between the close younger buns. The fight they endured will make bonding more difficult as they will most likely see the other as a threat now but not impossible. Three weeks isn’t a long time and bunnies tend to hold grudges. As you’ll find out.

I would suggest start by doing some stress-bonding. Put them in the bath tub together, carrier and take them for a car ride, or stuff them both in a laundry basket and put them on top of a dryer/washer. This also worked in a laundry basket with the vacuum running next to them for me. Stress bonding will bring out their natural instinct as a group to overcome an obstacle or threat together. Which will hopefully result in cuddling/grooming together. When you have cemented a certain behavior such as cuddling in stressful situations, you can begin to move them to other NEUTRAL territories. Such as a kitchen floor (since most buns are terrified of tile), bathroom floor, or the bath tub. And see what happens there. If you have a big breakout, go back to your last step and re-do that for a few days before trying to move them up to the next step again. I would suggest also putting towels in each cage and switching them back and forth between the bunnies cages so the other buns scent is constantly in their territory. You can do the same thing with their litter and toys. I like to use a towel because my buns tend to take a lot of their aggression out on the towel rather than the other bunny they’re angry about. Which can help in bonding as it helps to get some of that stress and anger out. I would try these things — and once they have begun doing better in these situations, try moving them on up to newer, bigger area and then eventually back into their own area once you see grooming and cuddles.

You WILL need to vinegar and clean EVERYTHING in their shared area when you first introduce them back into the non-neutral territory as you want them to think of a it as a “new” area. I usually do this by switching up their house a little bit, new items, flip litter boxes to the other side, ect.

Hope this helps! Anymore questions and I would be happy to answer! Good Luck with your two!!!

[C C]

Hi thanks for replying. 

I’ve been looking into “stress bonding” however I’ve come across a few articles which suggest that once the bunnies become fully relaxed they can revert to fighting. Are you suggesting that I initially begin with stress bonding and then build upon it with “proper” bonding?

Just to add to my first post:

I do swap over the rabbits into each others territory every night so that they don’t spend two successive nights in the same area. The reason for this is partly to keep the scents mixed and partly because one of the living areas allows a bit more freedom than the other and I don’t want one rabbit to be confined noticeably more than the other. So swapping keeps the scent mixed and keeps it fair!

They do occasionally lie next to each other through the mesh which I’m taking as a good sign. They also have no problem sharing a food bowl or litter tray (although not at the same time).

Can I also ask, I’ve been watching “bunny date” videos on YouTube – when is a positive time to stop a bunny date (a negative time is when they are fighting for example). Should the date stop when they are ignoring each other?

[tanlover14]

Stress bonding is usually used for bunnies that are fighting during beginning bonding. This helps them begin to establish a trust in each other. Stress bonding is mainly used to get them to slowly begin to trust each other as they come together during a stressful time. You’ll definitely want to follow up stress bonding to neutral territory to un-neutral territory. Stress bonding isn’t unproper bonding but it’s just a beginning way to help stop the fighting between the two as fighting usually is just an indicator that they haven’t established any trust between each other.

Cuddling against the bars is definitely a good beginning! You actually DON’T want to stop a bunny date right after fighting. You obviously want to stop the fighting but then you want something positive to happen BEFORE ending the bonding session. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS end on a good note. Even if it’s something as simple as feeding them both a treat on either side of you if they keep fighting. For example, if they have been cuddling for 5 minutes but you notice them start to get antsy together you can give a treat and quickly end so the bonding session seems like a GOOD thing to them. You want to help them establish a correlation between the other bunny and positive things. Ending after a fight is ending it negative and is more likely to keep them fighting as fighting ends up with them getting away from the other bunny (what they want anyways). So they’ll just continue to do it. Ignoring each other is a positive thing so you can end on that also. But if they’re cuddling, I’d stretch the session out and just end when one gets up.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Yikes! THat sounds like it was quite the incident! I agree with all of Tanlover’s suggestions. Keep us posted on your progress!

[C C]

Well folks, to update you on how I’m getting on.

Over the last few nights I’ve tried a few bunny dates. The first was of mixed success. Much ignoring each other usually followed by a standoff. T=hankfully we didn’t progress to any actual fights.

Last night I upped the ante (so to speak) and held the bunny date in the bath tub. This initially calmed them down and they huddled together. This was followed by ignoring and exploring. Only at the last minute did things go sour but the date continued (after calming them down) and ended on a high (ignoring).

Tonight however sees a whole new approach.

I was back at the pet store today buying some food when I came across (Snow) Bell (snow because she is white and it started snowing when I left the pet store with her). Bell is a 16 week old female (think she’s a dwarf as she’s very plush and has one floppy ear) who has fortunately been with the store for some time. She is albino which means to most people, her red eyes mean she’s not the cute cuddly bunny they want for their kids. But she’s perfect for me. Because of her lack of takers, she’s remained in store through 4-5 batches of new rabbits which has kindled a motherly instinct in her. In a pen with 8 rabbits, she managed to groom 6 of the 7 (she is the 8th) while we thought about her. So I reckon she might just be the calming influence my troublesome boys need.

So, my two rabbits are now three. Cub, Carbon & Bell.

I’ll keep you guys posted on how things go once she has been given time to settle in!

(And before anyone asks, yes I am perfectly happy keeping three bunnies separate and well cared for should that eventuality arise. Bunnies are for life… not just for hopeful peacemaking!)

[tanlover14]

Yay for a new bun!! I LOVE trios. My trio is absolutely heartwarming to watch.

I’m glad you’ve given her a great home with some new PERMANENT bunny buddies soon!

[C C]

Well, 1 day in and Bell has settled in very nicely. She’s still not used to me quite yet although she tolerated a very gentle head rub when I was refilling her food bowl. She’s got a lovely personality. After her head rub and my retreating she plucked up the courage for a short adventure around her surroundings (much sniffing + much pawing at the new surfaces).

I then moved her cage next to Cub’s, just to see how they would get on. Instantly they noticed each other and became very interested. Cub was definitely the more interested bunny but Bell gave him plenty of attention. Their heads followed each other (almost nose to nose through the wire mesh) everywhere and wherever Bell moved in her cage Cub would follow in his.

Carbon… well he’s a different matter. I’ve joked since I got him that he’s the “special” bunny as he can seem a bit vacant sometimes. He was on form today and barely noticed the new arrival. That’s a boy!

So it seems to be good signs so far. Currently Bell is in Carbon’s old cage which she seems to like very much. Carbon has free roam of the room (he’s the most trustworthy + best litter trained + most confident) and Cub is in his cage.

Now, bonding wise… Cub and Carbon are both neutered males. Bell is female and not neutered. Should I wait until she is neutered before trying out bunny dates? My plan is to try her and Cub first since a) they’ve shown immediate awareness and interest of each other, and b) because I’m hoping she’ll be a positive influence on Cub (as he is the more aggressive of my two boys).

Thanks for reading folks!

PS: I’m thinking that I might use this thread as a bit of a running blog for my progress with the bunnies which a) allows you guys to watch and comment on what I could be doing better/ trying out etc. and b) so that it can help folks looking for advice in a similar situation.

[C C]

Ok, update after tonight’s bunny date:

After swapping Cub and Carbon over in the cages I noticed that Carbon and Bell didn’t seem as interested in each other as Cub and Bell had been. 

However…

… because of the lack of interest I thought it was worth trying a date between Carbon and Bell. The date started off very well with Bell investigating her surroundings and Carbon keen to investigate me. After about 5 minutes they noticed each other and Carbon began trying to get his head in under Bell’s. This didn’t get him anywhere and after another couple of minutes he started mounting her. For the first while Bell took it very passively. This progressed to her running away and then running + thumping. It never progressed beyond this stage. Carbon spent a good bit of time grooming her although she never returned the favour. 

From what I’ve gathered that’s a good start?

Then, out of curiosity I tried a date between Cub and Bell. Immediately Cub lowered his head (Bell btw just flops around nodding her head. She has massive ears – 1 up 1 down – and huge feat so she looks quite funny and innocent). Whenever Bell ventured too close Cub immediately would stick his head under her rear end. I watched the first once or twice but it was clear on the third time that he was trying to bite her: I could see his teeth quite clearly. 

So, that’s been an interesting first night. On one level it’s been a great success between Carbon and Bell – I’ll keep them dating and see how they settle in. On the other it’s not been so great with Cub however it has revealed I think the issue that might be keeping Carbon and Cub apart.

I’d really appreciate feedback/ advice from you guys if you have anything that could help?

[tanlover14]

Well, to begin with.. I would definitely get Bell spayed ASAP before introducing her into the bonding cycle. If she starts to develop hormones she could quickly (overnight) become aggressive to the others and start a fight that could easily be avoided by spaying her. If the fight was tooo bad it could make bonding in the future much more difficult so I would definitely get her spayed! As you said, she’s 4 months old. I got my girl spayed around 4 1/2 months. Although some vets I know would prefer to wait longer.

First off, ignoring is ALWAYS good. It’s a good sign that the buns aren’t aggressive and just ignoring. As ignoring will mean they really don’t care either way about the other bun and can make bonding MUCH MUCH easier.

The date between Carbun and Bell seemed very good! Although, as her hormones begin to come out I worry she will begin to be more aggressive back when he attempts to mount her.

Between Cub and Bell, my buns have done this to my newer bun I’m bonding with them also. Sometimes they will sniff and then after a few nose bumps they will try biting. It as become to me, an aggression right before the bite so now I squirt them whenever I see it happening just to stop it before it starts.

[tanlover14]

Also, I think keeping this as a bonding update post is a GREAT idea. I’ve actually been doing the SAME exact thing on a thread for bonding my four little rascals. Take a look if you want — I update whether people respond or not — since I know it would’ve been helpful to see something like these threads out there for me when I was bonding Three and now Four!

Here’s a link to it if you’d like to read! (I have to update tonight as I haven’t in a few days so don’t think I stopped since the last entry was from a few days ago).

https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/123358/Default.aspx

[C C]

Thanks tanlover14,

I’ll have a read through your thread tonight.

Bell is now booked in to be spayed on Monday. After that I’ve got a week off so plenty of attention for the bunnies.

[C C]

Thanks tanlover14,

I’ll have a read through your thread tonight.

Bell is now booked in to be spayed on Monday. After that I’ve got a week off so plenty of attention for the bunnies.

[C C]

Update Time

Ok, last night saw a bit of a set back. The way I have my three rabbits configured is that one is in a cage, one is in a living area next to the cage and the third is separated by a tall barrier that (theoretically) is taller than they can jump. Last night I put Bell in the cage, Cub next to her and Carbon on the other side of the barrier (I rotate them to keep the scents/ territory mixed up). This morning I came in a lot of fur and Carbon in the living area next to Bell and Cub on the other side of the barrier. Some how during the night they have been able to swap places, getting at each other during the process.

So today Carbon was a bit subdued, Cub was looking decidedly guilty and Bell seemed a bit quiet. 

After a while in the room with them though they’ve all returned to usual selves. 

I tried giving Carbon and Bell another date tonight. It went ok at first but was pretty uneventful. Carbon occasionally honked but didn’t make any moves and Bell just ran around exploring. I did notice however that whenever either of them strayed near Cub’s cage Cub would try to nip them through the mesh. Definitely a bit anti-social that one!

I then stepped up the date and took Carbon and Bell to our hallway (neutral territory) where they had fun. The night ended on a high with Carbon grooming Bell, Bell lightly grooming him back and them both lying cuddling. Definitely potential!

Bell is booked in for spaying on Monday so fingers crossed that doesn’t impact it too much. 

[tanlover14]

I wouldn’t necessarily see this as a set-back! Don’t be discouraged by it — the fact that there was only fur pulling and no injuries really is a good sign. No one flat out got aggressive to an extreme. Cub was probably being territorial OR just wants to be the top bun and wants everyone to know it. Fleury did A LOT of nipping at Simba when introduced as a group. Simply because he wanted to be the “top bunny” so it was almost like he felt the need to put on that act to get the others to realize it or something. Tanger also did this to Simba when I first began putting their cages next to each other. I really wouldn’t worry too much as long as no one was injured. I know you said he was the aggressive one of the bunch from the beginning SO I really think he just has it in his head HE’s going to be the top bun. Fleury did too. And then Simba came in and challenged him. But they have begun to work it out amongst themselves in just a few weeks SO really really really don’t see it as a set-back! These types of behaviors HAVE to happen for them to move forward and establish a pecking order.

[C C]

So today Bell successfully made it through her spaying operation. At present she is curled up on her little rabbit cushion looking quite cosy and comfortable. She’s obviously tender from the way she is limping around but she’s well stitched up and there’s no signs of her pulling them out. 

Admittedly though I got a bit of a shock when I first checked her over. After very little signs of intrusion/ operation on the boys when they were neutered, seeing Bell’s underbelly was something else entirely. She’s completely shaved and there’s clear signs where the vet has been at work. Just a warning in case anyone (like my fianc&eacute is particularly uneasy with such things. 

So it’s been a good day. Carbon and Bell have managed 24 hours together without incident (checking every while with increasing time between checks) and they look very happy together. There is much grooming (by both), much lying together and much running together (not so much just now as Bell is limping). Cub has been kept in his cage which has had mixed results. Because he is in the cage we give him more attention ourselves (just so he doesn’t feel unloved) – this extra love seems to have calmed him a bit so maybe love is the way forward. 

Looking good tonight though folks!

[C C]

Ok folks,

Update on Bell: She’s doing great! Managed to chew out her stitches on Tuesday night – back to vets on Wed morning. Managed to chew out her staples on Wed night – back to vet this morning. After today’s visit I’ve managed to make her a rabbit suit (snipped up sock and some packing tape to keep it snug around her). That has stopped her from getting back to her healing op area.

Update on Cub + Carbon: tried letting them out together tonight. Immediately Cub went for Carbon’s bum. Separated them as quickly as possible. Tried again. Pulled a few tufts but no wounds on either. Carbon definitely seems to be the less aggressive bunny – he resorts to running away and grunting/ honking (but no squealing). He doesn’t go for Cub.

Bell
Cub + Carbon

[C C]

Just tried another approach to the Bonding. Put Carbon and Cub in a spare plastic storage box with each other and me (with my water spray) at the ready. Gave the box a quick twirl to get them confused and let them have about 4-5 minutes in each others company. The small dimensions kept them close but the unfamiliar surroundings kept their attention away from each other. No fights, not tests of dominance. Ended it on the positive

[C C]

So Bell has now been back from her spaying operation for almost a week and a half. At first Carbon was so keen on grooming her that he was pulling out her stitches (so she was stapled) and staples (so she was glued and bandaged) and bandages . Far too keen ha ha!. Anyway, she is now fully healed and very happy so she has moved with Carbon into a brand new hutch which I have bought for them.

The reason for the hutch is to keep the room as a neutral territory that all 3 bunnies can enjoy. By allowing Carbon and Bell free roam the room became their “patch” meaning that Cub never felt comfortable when he came out for play time. Now Cub is much happier with the room and Carbon and Bell still get to come out to play too!

My desire to bond all three bunnies though has taken a bit of a knock. Firstly, I’m no longer as desperate to get them all bonded. Carbon and Bell are very happy together which is lovely to watch but Cub also seems just as happy on his own. He has plenty of toys which he loves to toss, a patch to dig in and gets to come out to play often enough.The second knock is (perhaps a mistake on my part) my decision to let all 3 bunnies out at the same time. I wanted to see how they would interact as a group. Cub is clearly the pro-active bunny and ran around nipping Carbon and Bell. He managed to pull fur from both but no (physical) injuries sustained. What’s challenging is that he didn’t seem interested in dominance i.e. there were no attempts to mount and he wasn’t really interested in seeking grooming. He was simply too preoccupied chasing and pulling fur from both Carbon and Bell’s bums. Both Carbon and Bell would run away, thumping and occasionally whimpering. Unfortunately there wasn’t a positive to end the meeting on so they were all put back in their respective homes and given a chance to calm down before being given treats.

[Author]

Messages