Bonding going well?

[heliandflop]

Sorry it’s a long one, I just want to make sure I include any info needed.

I got two female rabbits in January of this year. I was I’ll informed about the needs of rabbits and the need to bond them at the time I got them or I probably wouldn’t have gotten both at the same time.

They are about 6 months old now and are sisters from the same litter.

When I first got them, they were together always, until about a month before our spay appointments when Heli(calico) started attacking her sister Flop(black). At that time, I separated them, by putting a second xpen right next to the original. This has been their setup ever since, and they have never not been in the same room together other than at the vet when getting spayed.

They were both spayed in March. At that time, the vet stated that Heli had gone into puberty and that was probably why she was aggressive. She suggested I just keep them together as the “trauma” of surgery would likely make them bond. As the specialized vet I trusted that she knew what she was talking about, but I had also done my research at that time and saw skeptical, so I kept them together but slept in the same room just in case. At 1am I woke up to a scuffle, luckily they were still pretty drugged up so it wasn’t bad at all, more of them shuffling around each other, so I separated them.

I then waited a month and started dates, for about a week or two and there were no bad behaviours so we kept moving forward. After a stretch of 48 hours with no bad behaviours in the neutral space(with me sleeping on the ground next to them), I set up their new home and moved them in.

I don’t know if I tried to bond too quickly after the surgery or if I put too much too soon in their new home, but within an hour there was a bunny tornado and I had to separate them again.

I decided to wait another month as everything I have read says it takes 4-8 weeks for the hormones to subside.

I have now been doing daily dates for about a week. They groom each other they eat together, and they share a litter box in the neutral pem(neither of them will go to the bathroom unless I put a litter box in and I’m concerned for their safety and it does not cause any issues). They only behaviours that I have seen this time around is Flop is humping Heli a bit. Which I understand is good and I should let happen as long as it’s not on the face.

I am not sure where to go from here, as everything seems to go well until I put them in their long term space. And I am now worried to do so.  Also time frames of how long they should stay together in the neutral space with no issues, and the size of the new space vary so much from site to site that I feel like I am not getting the correct information.

I would love for them to be fully bonded so I can free roam them in my livingroom as it would allow all of us to have more space to have fun when there’s not 24 square feet of xpens in the room.

Any help or suggestions would be incredible. Thanks in advance for any help you could provide.

 

[Wick & Fable]

How long can they last in neutral? Have you tried 24hrs in neutral?

Honestly if they are only now 6mo, they were both spayed quite young, so even if physically there may not be a source of those pesky hormones (assuming successful spays; when they’re done early, sometimes things are missed, as I’ve been told) they are young so it may just take a bit for them to mellow out. Typically females aren’t spayed until 6mo, and so bonding doesn’t really start until the rabbits are 7mo.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[heliandflop]

Last time we did 48 hours straight one the neutral before I moved them into their forever space.

Today is the longest we’ve gone this time and we are at about 4 hours and I’m gonna probably keep going as long as there is good behaviour until tomorrow night, as I work on Monday morning and will need to get a good night’s sleep.

They have been cuddling and grooming each other since I put them in today with a bit of humping.

 

I also just realized that they are almost 7 months old now.

[DanaNM]

Thank you for their history, super helpful! Unfortunately most vets don’t know much about bonding, even the great vets! And yes there is tons of conflicting info on the internet!

I think you probably just moved a bit too fast with the bonding process initially, and possibly with the transition from neutral to their final home. Did you have a “semi-neutral” area as an intermediate between the neutral and final home?  The ideal progression is 48 hours in neutral (with lots positive behaviors and no aggression), then 48 hrs in semi-neutral, then 48 hrs of supervision in the final home. If you don’t have a semi-neutral spot available (I often don’t), then I like to do extra time in neutral, but you don’t necessarily have supervise that whole time. So if they are doing great after 48 in neutral, leave them there for an extra couple days to really let them “cement”. Then when you move them to a new spot supervise for 48 hrs again. Since the have had a couple scuffles, I’d err on the side of giving them extra time in bonding process before you take each step. So say you are looking at them and they seem bonded, I’d add an extra 24-48 hours in whatever that step is if possible just to be extra sure.

If you’ve done most of your bonding in a smaller space, it can also be important not to increase the size of the space too quickly. I usually bond in a larger space so I haven’t had issues with this, but some buns benefit from having their space restricted a bit once they move to non-neutral territory.

Last tip, when you move them to their final home, try to clean and rearrange everything so it’s as unfamiliar as possible to the buns. I like to get a new litter box, rearrange the pen set up so it’s a mirror image to what it was before, new toys, and wipe everything down with vinegar solution. Sometimes I’ve even put baking soda on the carpets and then vacuumed in an attempt to make everything smell as neutral as possible. This is another benefit of having a slightly restricted space when you move them in, because if htey are free roam you wont be able to neutralize the entire room, but you can make their pen area seem more “new”.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[heliandflop]

Thank you so much for the great advice, unfortunately I have quite a tiny apartment and their current homes Take up so much space that I really only have the one space in my kitchen to make a neutral zone, I also have no way to bunny proof the whole space to ensure they don’t eat the spicy hay on my fridge and other important appliances so I have to restrict them in that area.

I will move along as you have suggested. I have palms next weekend so I will not be able to do the whole weekend. My goal is to do as much time daily as I can for the next 2 weeks in their neutral set up and then the next weekend I am free we will do 48 hours and as long as we keep seeing no bad actions I will keep them in there for a few days. Luckily I have a camera for them so even if I have to go to work I can monitor.

I was planning on replacing their rug on the next move to their forever space too as I thought that may also have had something to do with the fight, I sprayed it with a vinegar solution but maybe I didn’t get all the smell out

I am sure I’ll be back with more questions as I continue down this road.

 

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a good plan! And yes I think that since your space is hard to neutralize that could have contributed to the fights last time.

The nice thing is that once they are doing great in the neutral space for 48 hrs, you don’t have to supervise them constantly there, so you could set them up in the kitchen, supervise over the weekend, then just keep them in the kitchen till the next weekend when you are ready to supervise 24/7 again. Depending on your layout another way to introduce them to their forever home is to gradually expand how much room they have from the kitchen until they are in their forever home area. I used to be in a studio apartment and did something similar with mine.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[heliandflop]

I don’t know how long is too long to come with an update and desperate queries. But here I am.

I followed all of the advice and my girls were bonded, everything was going well. Then last week we got a heatwave and I had to move their pen into my spare bedroom as it was 32 degrees in the living room where their home was and I didn’t want them to get heat stroke. Unfortunately there is no room in there for them to have free roam and I think a combination of the move to completely new territory and the fact that I added back old toys to stave off boredom caused a few fights.

Unfortunately, I was out of the country this weekend. My mom was stopping in twice a day to give them love and food and water and I was watching on the cameras. It appears they got in a few scuffles at night, but everything seemed fine in the morning as they were cuddling and grooming each other so I didn’t want to have my mom separate them. Then Sunday night they had such a bad blowout that I had to take today off of work to take them both to the vet, with Flop needing stitches in two places, and them both ending up on antibiotics.

I am now seriously considering that I may need to rehome one of them. I am so scared I will go to work and they will kill each other. I also know that keeping them separate is not tenable forever, as I do not have the time and space to let them each out for 4 hours a day. The best I would be able to do is 2 hours each, and that’s not fair to either of them.

I have read that after a terrible and extended fight like this it is unlikely that they will be able to be bonded, and if they are they would need to be separated out of sight of each other for at least 6 months before we try, I do not have the space to keep them in separate rooms for really any amount of time. Is it hopeless? Do I need to find a new home for one of them?

I am going to let them both heal completely in their separate pens next to each other before I make any decisions, but I am hoping someone can steer me in the right direction.

I am also wondering if I am to keep both of them but keep them separate, can they live next to each other? With me building their pens upwards with more levels so they have more space? Also can they live semi bonded, like they get to play together but they go home to their own pens at the end of the day? I’m not sure I’ll ever trust them to be alone again without having a panic attack.

Sorry for the long post, I appreciate any help that can be offered, I am so completely defeated right now and I just want to do what’s best for my girls.

[DanaNM]

Oh no, I’m so sorry. 🙁  That’s really tough. I think your suspicion is correct, that the move was just a bit too much since they were a new bond.

I had a bond break on me in very similar fashion. They were seemingly bonded for 5 months, then out of nowhere there was a terrible fight and one bun needed stitches. I was in a somewhat similar situation, I lived in a studio apartment with no space to truly separate them, and no space to have 2 single buns. I opted to return the new bun to the rescue for that reason.

Reading back through your whole thread and remembering that these two have a history of fighting when they appeared bonded, I don’t think I would personally attempt to re-bond these two. You can try… but given their history I would have a hard time trusting them. Rabbits can hold grudges, so it could be that their history is just too much to overcome. Female-female pairs are also tricky and tend to have the highest rates of bonds breaking (source: https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-care-advice/further-reading/owner-rescue-centre-and-veterinary-professional-experiences-of-rabbit-bonding/).

You can certainly keep them both as neighbors though, but should not give them exercise time at the same time. Usually a good set-up for this is side-by-side condos (building up is a great idea, I’ve done this before when I had limited space as well), and then give one bun exercise in the morning, and one in the evening (or one free-roam during the day, and one at night).

You could try a side-by-side set-up for now and see how workable it is. If you feel you aren’t able to give either rabbit a good living situation then you could consider rehoming, but you don’t necessarily need to make that decision immediately.

Again I’m so sorry you are going through this, it’s so heartbreaking!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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