BONDING FAILED!! ADVICE NEEDED!!

[ZhuMo]

Sorry in advance for the long post and thank you so much to those who take their time to read and help us! <3

Here is some background information on buns first:

Name: ZhuZhu

       DOB: April 14, 2020

       Sex: Female

       Breed: Netherland Dwarf

       Color: Black

       Came home: June 10, 2020

       Spayed: January 6, 2021

Name: MoMo

DOB: August 2, 2020

       Sex: Female

       Breed: Holland lop

       Color: White

Came home: September 27, 2020

Spayed: February 22, 2021

 

I had made a horrible mistake of letting them be “friends” when they were babies and not spayed. I had planned on waiting until both of them were of age to get spayed together but the older one started to be hormonal and a fight broke out. I immediately separated them, since they both free roamed the whole house, I had to put them in separate rooms. After they had both been spayed, I started to house them in ex-pens next to each other for more than 2 months and they would each get their playtime outside individually.

Once I felt they were ready, I went to a completely new house to try the 24/7 bonding. The whole time we were there, no fights, no circling, no tornado. Just cuddles love and kisses. We expanded the pen up to 6ft x 9ft and there had been no issues for a whole week. Once we got back home we placed them in a small ex-pen. Before we got home, my mother had helped me wipe and spray the whole room with white vinegar for 2 days. They were doing really well at home, then after 8 hours, they had their first fight. So we put them both into the carrier while we made the pen even smaller. Once we put them in together they fought again and there was circling. So we put them in their carrier together again, and we made a 1×1 nic grid box again and put them in together. Within 5 minutes, Momo humped Zhuzhu for the first time and there was circling again. So we decided to separate them and put them in their ex-pens side by side. They once again cuddled next to each other through the bars. 

There was one room they had not been in for a couple of months, so for the next 3 days, we wiped the whole room down with vinegar and even boiled a pot of vinegar in the room. We then brought them to the room and restarted the 24/7 bonding in a 1×1 box. They did not fight for the first few hours. But it has been 7 days and I have only managed to increase their pens to be 3×2. With quite a few chasings and bitings.

Since they were babies, MoMo would also ask ZhuZhu for grooms and ZhuZhu would give. However, we never once saw MoMo groom ZhuZhu before and we thought it was just because she was a baby and didn’t know how to. The first time we saw MoMo groom her was when we were doing the 24/7 bonding the first time and she only groomed ZhuZhu once. When we tried the 24/7 bonding the second time in our own home, I have noticed ZhuZhu constantly asking MoMo for grooms and never receive any. This causes her to nip MoMo and cause a fight and circling. We have tried rubbing bananas on ZhuZhus’s head but Momo just won’t groom her and only ask to be groom making ZhuZhu very upset. ZhuZhu is currently very territorial so we have not given them a litter box. She would not allow MoMo to jump in there at all.

I have tried to contact a lot of the local shelters and vets to see if they had bonding services but a few had emailed back saying they can only give advice and telling me that they sound like compatible buns but I just don’t see it that way any more. Finally, I found somewhere that said they had bonding services but they told me because the buns are both girls, they will always fight, and even though they will be “bonded” at their place, when they come home there’s no guarantee it will stay that way.

TLDR: 

I messed up by letting my two buns fight, tried 24/7  bonding in a friend’s house and it was successful, but when we got home they fought so we separated them. A few days later we tried again in our own home.  It is not working they are constantly fighting. Should I go to a professional bonder who says there’s no guarantee? What am I doing wrong? Will they never be able to bond? Are they just not compatible?

 

Thank you again so much for taking your time to read this long story/problem!

[DanaNM]

Hmmm that’s a really stressful situation, I’m sorry you’ve been through that!

Ultimately I think it’s your call on whether you want to keep trying. But a few thoughts from my end… I’ve never had good luck with small space bonding, and actually the only bond I’ve every had break was using a small space method.  I also wonder if you just didn’t stay in the very first space long enough. It also seems like some buns maybe aren’t as suited to the 24/7 method. I’ve also read about buns that only used the 24/7 method being really only bonded in that place, so when you move to a new spot the bond breaks.

I tend to use kind of a hybrid approach, where I do a few short sessions, then work up to hours-long sessions. I usually end up doing some car-rides as well.  And then start marathoning when I feel like they are done with the scuffling and fighting phase. It’s very interesting that your first marathon went so smoothly.

It’s also possible that they have some grudges from their past that they might not be able to work through. If things hadn’t been so perfect in the first marathon I’d probably be thinking they just aren’t a good match (esp with two females).

I think if you decide you want to give it another shot (and again, really your call), I would opt for a different strategy since the initial strategy didn’t completely work. I would start by doing shorter sessions in a variety of spaces, including large ones. During these sessions, you will want to work to break the negative association that’s built up between them. So when they ask for grooms, pet them both to make them think they are getting grooms. Prevent fighting from starting, and try to always end on a good note. It does seem like sometimes buns need to go through a little rough patch before they really bond, so it’s possible they just moved a little too quickly from the initial marathon, and now are stuck in an aggressive cycle. I do prefer large spaces because they can interact more freely and can get away from each other when needed.

I think with a slower approach you will be more certain that they have really worked through their issues, so will be more confident in their bond in the end.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ZhuMo]

Yea that sounds like a good idea to do short sessions. Should I house them side by side for a while again before I start? And how big would pen need to be and approximately how long would I keep them there?

I have also heard that some rabbits need to fight it out but I just get so scared when I see them fight. I also heard they have thick fur so even if their bites break human skin it wouldn’t be as bad for them. But they never just have small fights where someone backs off, instead they start tornado-ing and there would be fur flying everywhere 🙁

[DanaNM]

I don’t personally agree with “fighting it out” (and I think most rabbit welfare groups are also against this), but there are some things like nipping, chasing, and mounting that sometimes need to happen. And of course sometimes fights happen even with our best efforts to prevent them. Different bonders have different levels of tolerance for fur pulling, and sometimes this relates a lot to how the buns are with each other. If you know that your buns tend to escalate to a tornado, then I would intervene to prevent. I do think you are seeing more tornados because you are in a small space though (the only place to run ends up being a circle!).

I think housing side by side and doing side swaps is a good idea.

I think a pen that’s at least 2 xpens large would be good to try. As far as how long, I’m not sure. I think in your case I would want to see a progression of behavior so things just get better and better. If you move them to a new location and they start scuffling, you know you moved them too quickly and should go back to the last step where they got along.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ZhuMo]

Ok!! Thank you so much!!

I have currently split my room in half and they each get half of the room so they can have enough room to exercise! I will probably be switching them every 24 hours so they can get use to each others smell.

Do you know how long it will take them to forget a place? I was thinking of keeping them in our room downstairs until they forget how the living room is or how the upstairs is.

[DanaNM]

It’s hard to say…. I think a space can be fairly easily turned into semi-neutral. But to be completely neutral is harder. Rabbits are very smell oriented, so if it smells like home, they will know where they are. So the more foreign you can make it smell the better.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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