Bonding Dog and Mouse

[sally]

So far so good!! They went for each other at first yesterday, but not loads to be honest, I decided to bond as Dog has been offically sexed as a girl, and my friend and I took a good look at mouse and both agree she is also a girl, Mouse hasnt tried to mount dog at all either.

 

So basically yeh they went for each other a little bit, but I was on hand so it didnt get out of control. I think Mouse has established herself as the boss now, this was yesterday, today, they are almost ignoring each other, there is a bot of chase going on, but no fighting whatsoever, Im taking this as a good sign….??? After the inital introduction they were both pretty tired and just sat near other for ages, but im thinking it’s going well. I cant afford to buy them a cage for them both to live in just yet, so they are put away sepearalty, is this is bad for their bonding? Can honestly say though its day 2 and going better than I thought!!!

[KatnipCrzy]

females are quite territorial- so until you have them spayed you need to be careful about having them together.  A bad experience could result in a tougher bonding later as they will remember that.

[sally]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/video/video.php?v=157738549224

This is how they are with each other.

[tabalab]

Your cat is beautiful and looks like she is thinking WTF is this rabbit doing, weirdoooo

[Lintini]

Haha, your cat it too cute. She looks a tad concerned that this bun is larger than her!

[KatnipCrzy]

I would try stress bonding techniques to get them closer together and avoid their relationship starting off with chasing.  A laundry basket on a running washer or dryer works good- or togehter in a carrier for a car ride.

I am sure it is not impossible to bond to unspayed females- but it will definitely be harder.  And any bonding attempt could results in wounds require a trip to the vet that costs as much if not more than a spay.  And then you will have taken a step back in the bonding process.

Have you tried them in pens by each other- where they can see each other, smell each other but have slightly separated to avoid any biting or boxing thru the pens?  That might be a good first place to start- and then swapping them in the pens.

[Sarita]

Here are my thoughts:

1. You aren’t for certain Mouse is a female – have the vet who sexed Dog, sex Mouse.
2. Get them altered.
3. That video honestly does not show at all how they are going to interact. They didn’t even interact at all.
4. Bonding needs to be closely supervised and it needs to be done in neutral space.
5. You need to be very ready to break up any altercation – rabbits can injure each other very badly.
6. I agree with Katnip that perhaps you can at least start switching them out in each others cage but not before you do the above.

[RabbitPam]

I agree with Katnip and Sarita. In addition, even though it seems like two females make it safer to bond, you actually have two bunnies at a very high risk of getting cancer, also a tragic and costly illness in the future. It is very important to get them spayed asap. Talk to your vet about the cost, whether doing two bunnies will cost as much, payment plans, etc. Vets are getting accommodating if they know the situation in advance. Take the bonding slowly until the spays are done, and they will adjust to each others’ presence and smells in your home. You could get two plushie animals, let each one snuggle in their cage with one, then swap them out so they can smell each other on the stuffed toy and get used to each other that way for a while. If one gets aggressive to the toy, no harm done.

[BinkyBunny]

I don’t mean to to just jump on the band wagon and just ditto everything….but I’m on the wagon….and I  ditto everything.

For some reason, I can’t see the video.

I also can’t emphasize enough how very difficult it is to sex bunnies. Their genitals are very similar and males can pull in and hide their testicles.  I have looked at alot of bunny parts, and I STILL have a very difficult time. You’d think it would be easy…boys are tubish, and girls are more pointy/longer slit.   But many times I could have sworn up and down that one was a boy only to find out it was a girl, or vice versa.   So though you may be absolutely right that they are both females, I wouldn’t chance it as the result sure wouldn’t be worth it. So I do hope you reconsider and have your vet double check. 

And not to say that bonding two unspayed females is impossible, it’s just that it does add to the risk of fighting.. Even spayed females can get into some nasty fights. (I spent $800 in vet costs after one nasty bite caused an abscess) So, of course, I agree with doing whatever you can to reduce any of the chances that this could just make it any harder.

 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I don’t mean to to just jump on the band wagon and just ditto everything….but I’m on the wagon….and I ditto everything.

LOL I ditto the ditto from the wagon

Your buns are too cute! Anyways I don’t think any of can stress enough that there really COULD be babies-it happens soooo often and even more often then that is taking a bunny in for a spay to find out it’s going to be a neuter!! That’s not as big of a deal as injuries or babies (Really baby bunnies are cute, but so are alllllll the bunnies in shelters) *off my mom podium*

In the meantime before the spay, you can start with basic bonding steps-taking things slow; That will likely ensure a wonderful bond once they are spayed and can live together permanently. First thing you’d likely want to do is start with the ‘stunt double’ and just switch toys back and forth-this gets them used to each other’s smell AND sharing. Other things you can do is let them be in visual contact with each other and feed them. Feeding is very social for buns and this will help establish a relationship while you wait out spays!

Good luck!

[Beka27]

I agree with everything that has been mentioned here. They are not ready to be bonded. Two SPAYED females are difficult to bond, I think there is very little chance of two unspayed females bonding. Even if there are no horrible injuries or fights, you are wasting your time and stressing them out for no reason. You have to spay them first.

You had mentioned in another thread that you might be getting pregnant soon. Of course, babies are EXPENSIVE, and money will be EVEN TIGHTER when the new bundle arrives… so my advice (if I were you), I would try as hard as possible to get both spayed before that time. If you were to get them BONDED before baby comes, that’s an added bonus: only one pen to clean, one exercise time, they have each other for company since you’ll be too busy to spend a lot of time with them individually.

I really think that this can work out! One step at a time and I believe you can be successful and have a bonded pair living happily (and healthily) ever after!

[sally]

That video, is probably a bad example, I just thought it was cute how sasha the cat was just minding her own lol They dont live together and the idea isnt necessarily to house them in the same cage/pen, the idea is to make things easier at playtime, that they are out at the same time,therefore i dont have to spend hours chasing one back into her cage, to just do it again later, they are easier to catch when they are out together. As for neutral space, I dont have any, Mouse has free reign all around the flat, and she uses it, dog also has this but wont walk outside my lounge on the hard floors, therefore it wouldnt of been very nice to have mouse used to the floors and dog not. They just tolerate each other, and thats what I wanted, as for spaying, I will get round to it asap, now 3 or 4 days on, they just ignore each other, dog sits under the table as usual and mouse runs all over the place binkying as she goes. But it means, only one time I have to clean up territory poop and only one time getting them back in, Mouse will let me pick her up if she is in a relaxed lying down position, and dog is the problem but she seems to comply more with getting back in when she see’s mouse is back in.

I am not disregarding any advice given here, im just wondering, i dont understand why its an issue that they are playing chase, neither has been injured, neither has attempted to hump the other, they just have a sniff and go thier seperate ways, they are under supervision when they are out at all times, even the cat gets involved and they all sit near each other just relaxing, I dont fully understand the issue here?

[Sarita]

Hi Sally, I think one of my biggest concerns is the fact too that you have not had the vet sex Mouse – I think that should be something you should do just to be safe – it’s very possible that you are correct in that she is a female but since she is your first rabbit and you’ve never really sexed a rabbit before I think it would be a wise thing to do. I’ve seen it happen so many times on the forum where rabbits who were together weren’t sexed by a vet and it ended up that they were not the sex the owners thought they were and uh-oh, a litter of baby rabbits.

I think everyone just wants to make you aware of the dangers of bonding too. I understand that you are letting them just play together and it’s easier for you. But you just need to be vigilant. Rabbit bites are very dangerous and can be fatal and I do mean fatal. Many of our members have also posted about this happening with their rabbits and the trips to the emergency vets and the costs for the surgery or medications among other things. We just don’t want this to happen with you and with your rabbits.

[RachelB]

Sally- By no means am I a bunny bonding expert (my experience with Samson and Ivy was WAY easier than most peoples stories on here)…. but here’s my two sense anyways.
1) I think a lot of people are concerned whenever anyone on here mentions that their bunny isnt spayed/neutered…. so to have two bunnies that are both intact makes people jumpy…. their advise is essentially **get those two girls in there to be spayed ASAP** Best case senario would be to have them done on the same day, that way they go to the vet together (seperate cages), are done together, and can be in pain/recovery together. Then they are both ready for bonding when you are.
2) A vet has not sexed both bunnies. There are so many stories on here of people thinking their little girl was a boy or boy a girl. Its really hard to tell sometimes. Everyone is worried about an unexpected litters. Did you know that female rabbits are:- receptive to getting pregnant 99% of the year, -75% of matings lead to ovulation (and lotsa cute babies), -bunnies are instantaneous copulators (it only takes one single thrust for intromission and ejaculation to occur)…. so all it takes is a few seconds for your two “girls” to end up with a litter. **by taking care of #1 everone on here will be less concerned with accidental mating**
3) Bonding unspayed/unneutered mates doesnt usually end well. Also after they are spayed even if they do partially bond before you may need to start all over from scratch. Bunnies have good memories and a bad experience now could hinder bonding them in the future.

I thought the video of the two girls was cute. They didnt interact much which is a good sign. BUT if you are serious about bonding them after their surgeries you probably want to start them off in a much smaller area (to force them to interact). AND you need to be standing there over them watching closely to break up backwards mounting, nipping, and agressive chasing. Their game of “tag” that they were playing didnt seem to be agressive in nature to me… my boys chase eachother sometimes around their kitchen much the same. Just watch out for them to be grabbing eachothers hair as they run or looking overly stressed out. The girls are definitly not comfortable with eachother as of yet… there was no flopping, grooming, or even sniffing of eachother– so just beware that a fight could (and probably will) break out at some point. You also might want to force them to lay near eachother and pet them together so they get used to associating one another with good pets.

If they were mine I would try housing them apart but within viewing distance of eachother. Id give them their play time apart as well until you are sure that they are both girls, they are spayed, and you have the time and resources to be bonding them full time. I think that you are doing a great job with these two so far. Obviously you love them very much… everyone on here is just trying to give you ideas of what is in the best interest of the bunnies from their own experiences.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Sally I understand where your coming from.

I dont fully understand the issue here?

No one is judging or anything like that-we’re just concerned because we’ve seen pretty much the exact same situation turn into babies and/or huge vet bills

Basically
1) One could be a male-it takes less then 30 seconds for them to mate, they don’t go into heat they are induced ovulators-so if there is mating there are babies. NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE is questioning your supervision, but even an experienced overly cautious bunny crazy momma could lapse for 30 seconds AND could mis sex a bunny. Even VETS mis-sex. Sooo the one issue is just making sure, via a bunny vet-that they are both female FOR SURE for sure So there are no babies

2) Fights start out of no where and get CRAZY. Chasing and humping usually lead to fighting. Those of us who’ve had to do a hard bond have scars on our arms and hands to show it (war wounds). The fluffy harly in my signature pic ripped me open and he would have gotten Kokanee if I hadn’t stuck my arm in! We’re just saying it’s easier to put them together in neutral territory (TRUST Me -none of have any-use the bathtub lined with towels!) once they are both fixed-and there will likely be less blood.

Anyways, it’s hard to read peoples emotions or intent in written form, but I wanted to stress that we’re just offering advice b/c we;ve ALL seen the exact same situation (TWO same sex bunnies) make babies or vet bills

[sally]

As I said I wasn’t dis-regarding advice at all, my main problem I have is the fact that they arent spayed yet, becasue I know this is risky for them, health wise. There has been one flop by dog, so I think mouse has established she is the boss maybe. I do realise everyones concerns about the fact only one has been sexed, If im wrong unfortunatly i’ll have to eat my words, but as no kind of mounting has been attempted by either in the few days they have been out together im guessing im correct, but then im no expert.

The video was a bad example, it was just an example of how mouse is more interested in the cat than the other rabbit! There has been a lot of sniffing and circling and things but nothing over dramatic. Maybe bond is the wrong word to use for what im trying to acheive, im just wanting tolerance between all 3 pets, and this is what I have at the moment. Neither rabbit has seemed distressed by the situation, they just mind thier own.

I am intending to get them “fixed” as soon as I can, but Mouse has been with us since may and I still haven’t managed to get the funds together for just one, so two is hard, I dont even know if they have already been dont they may have been, seeing as though the people I got them from had no idea about anything!!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

No I totally understand funds for spay/neuter-it can be very costly! Even doing one would ensure no pregnancy and help with bonding

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