Bonding buns that I can’t pick up PLEEEASE HELP

[GeorgiaFrances]

So to briefly summarise my present situation:
We have a male (Bucky; our first bun) and female (Layla; adopted without ‘dating’ because she was owned by a friend and being super unloved), both neutered.
Bucky will viciously attack Layla if he can get to her, as he has done in the past (My stupidly intervening hand nearly needed stitches). They currently free roam at opposite ends of the house, and they do that nose-to-nose ‘stand-off’ business through the wire separating them (he also nips her when he can).
Previous attempt at bonding got to indifference and the occasional groom, however we didn’t know how to proceed after it stalled, and that was months ago now.
A reason why it was so difficult to attempt bonding last time, and is even harder now they both free roam, is that they both hate being picked up; Bucky in particular is impossible to pick up, he just “tassie devil’s” until you can’t hold him any longer.

For that reason it’s really hard (read: nearly impossible) to get them both to a neutral area (the only place left is the bathroom, where we bonded last time, which is in her “zone” but she doesn’t go in) or into a basket/cage/whatever together. I really REALLY want to try bonding again, as poor Layla is relegated to the back of the house while Bucky gets to be with us all the time (we spend as much time as we can with Layla but it’s hard).

Options I’ve so far considered:
-caging them both and giving them each separate floor time with us (feels like it would be too cruel to cage them after free roaming for so long, also I have no idea how I’d get them back in after floor time)
-swapping ends of the house (feels cruel to Bucky as he won’t understand why he’s being stuck down the other end of the house; also as he will then be comfortable in both zones of the house I worry he will try and succeed to get into the lounge when we go through the door, and will viciously attack Layla if he gets through)
-setting up a small tent in the lounge, luring him in and then carrying her in, so we can sit in there with them (it’s hard to lure Bucky into anything he’s suspicious of)
-placing some kind of cage/box in the hall between their areas, luring him in through a hole cut in the side, somehow covering the hole, then placing Layla in the top (again, it will be hard to get him in after the first couple of sessions, and it feels complicated. This is the idea that seems best at the moment as we could also pick the box up, but it in the car to stress bond etc.)

If anyone has any experience at all or even ideas please help, I’m absolutely racked with guilt every time I see her little face through the wire fence, and I know he’d be happier too if he had a friend he could get along with. I know there’s no easy solution but right now it feels impossible.

[Mikey]

Youll need to work on picking up and/or transport training before you will be able to bond them

[DanaNM]

Second Mikey, it sounds like you were on the right track before, so you should work on being able to move them easily. This is crucial if there was an emergency as well!

Many members here have been able to train their buns to go into their carriers, I think that might be your best bet so you can transport them easily. I haven’t done it myself, but there are lots of resources on clicker training online. It’s quite easy to train a rabbit to “target”. 

Are they food motivated? I assume they are, since they are bunnies! Work on hand feeding them both, most of their pellets and veggies.

You also might be able to get them into their carrier by feeding them their pellets and veggies in it. Then it becomes a fun hiding spot, rather than a bad place. 

In terms of neutral space, having the bathroom is good. You can also try setting up a pen (only when bonding), with a blanket or piece of linoleum as flooring, and blankets/towels/cardboard blocking the pen walls, so neither bun can recognize where they are.  

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[sarahthegemini]

I don’t understand why you need to be able to pick them up? And I don’t understand why you are considering caging them. Am I missing something?

It sounds like the bathroom is neutral so use that for your bonding sessions. Put each bun in a carrier and transport to the bathroom. That’s what I did. Altho my bedroom was the neutral space. I just took Peanut up first in the carrier (he takes longer to coax in) then place him in penned area. Then I went and coaxed Buttercup into carrier (took seconds) and transported her to bedroom.

[Mikey]

you need to be able to pick them up to make transporting them easier and the bonding go similar. If GF lures one bunny in, and then tries to lure the other, not only can fights break out that cant be stopped easily (you can break it up with a broom, but its much easier [and safer] to pick a bun up and remove them instead of constantly swatting both with a broom until one runs away) but it can also cause mistrust between GF and the bunnies. The buns will think they are being lured somewhere nice by GF, but in reality, they are being lured into a very, very stressful situation.

Sorry if thats not explained too well; Im not very good with wording things today :p Overall, it is safer if both rabbits go through transport training beforehand to avoid making the situation more stressful and potentially more harmful if a fight breaks out

It can be pick up or carrier transport training. Lure bun1 into crate1, and place crate1 unopened in the neutral area. Lure bun2 into crate2, then place crate2 unopened into the neutral area. Open both crates, and set them up high so nobunny runs in and gets trapped. At the end of bonding, the bunnies will need to be handheld enough for GF to be able to nudge, set, or pick up and put them into their crates before taking them back. Or of course, pick up training. Pick one rabbit up, set them down in the closed off neutral space. Get rabbit two, pick them up, set them down in the closed off neutral space. No matter which tactic you use, carrier or holding, both rabbits need to be comfortable enough to be picked up atleast for a few seconds because if a fight breaks out, you need to be able to confidentially break it up and pick one rabbit up asap to break the fight 

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Mikey on 6/14/2017 9:35 AM

you need to be able to pick them up to make transporting them easier and the bonding go similar. If GF lures one bunny in, and then tries to lure the other, not only can fights break out that cant be stopped easily (you can break it up with a broom, but its much easier [and safer] to pick a bun up and remove them instead of constantly swatting both with a broom until one runs away) but it can also cause mistrust between GF and the bunnies. The buns will think they are being lured somewhere nice by GF, but in reality, they are being lured into a very, very stressful situation.

Sorry if thats not explained too well; Im not very good with wording things today :p Overall, it is safer if both rabbits go through transport training beforehand to avoid making the situation more stressful and potentially more harmful if a fight breaks out

It can be pick up or carrier transport training. Lure bun1 into crate1, and place crate1 unopened in the neutral area. Lure bun2 into crate2, then place crate2 unopened into the neutral area. Open both crates, and set them up high so nobunny runs in and gets trapped. At the end of bonding, the bunnies will need to be handheld enough for GF to be able to nudge, set, or pick up and put them into their crates before taking them back. Or of course, pick up training. Pick one rabbit up, set them down in the closed off neutral space. Get rabbit two, pick them up, set them down in the closed off neutral space. No matter which tactic you use, carrier or holding, both rabbits need to be comfortable enough to be picked up atleast for a few seconds because if a fight breaks out, you need to be able to confidentially break it up and pick one rabbit up asap to break the fight 

No, you explained it well, thank you I hadn’t even thought of the trust issues involved when putting buns into a stressful situation more than once. I forget how easy it was for me as I marathon bonded so only had to lure them into carriers once! And it wasn’t stressful for them.

[GeorgiaFrances]

Thanks so much for your advice guys it makes a lot of sense.
Can I ask if anyone has advice on how to do ‘pick-up’ training? If either of them think I’m going to pick them up or even touch paws/belly/chest they run away, so it’s hard to know where to start.

[Mikey]

If you cant/dont want to pick them up, you can use cat carriers. You would need one for each, though. Lure them in with treats/greens/a bit of pellets. For bonding, once you get them each into their own carrier, you would bring them into the neutral space and release them at the same time, across from one another then put the carriers up on a shelf, cabinet, or similar so they cant retreat back in To lure them back in after bonding, you would need to be able to nudge them back into their own carriers. You can have oven mittens on, or use a broom to gently sweep them into their own carrier (lol)

Basically, even if you want to use carrier tactic over picking each up, they would still need to be comfortable enough with your hands on them/moving them around. Youll want to practice one on one with each, of course. Start by having your hands near them but not touching them. You can aid in this with hand feeding during feeding times. Once theyre comfortable with your hands near them, youll start just touching them. When I had to do this kind of training with my Bombur, I would just poke him gently. It eventually became a game of tag once he got used to me poking him sometimes lol. Go from poking to petting. From petting to “holding” for a second or two: having each hand on each side of the bun like you are about the pick them up, but dont. Go from “holding” to sitting and picking up, then putting down within seconds (give a treat/veggie/pellets). Slowly increase time of the picking up while sitting. Once bun can handle about 1 full minute of being picked up and held while you are sitting, work on picking up while standing (again, offer a treat/veggie/pellets after bun is put down). Stand in place with bun/dont walk yet, just pick up > stand > wait > set down > give treat. Once bun can handle about 2 full minutes of this, start walking at a slightly slower than normal pace. Again, treats/veggie/pellets when bun is set down. Once your rabbit is comfortable enough with you walking, your bun is pretty much trained Try to only pick up and carry when needed after the bun is trained to accept it as it can spook even trained buns if you pick them up and walk around too often. Important note, dont try to poke/pet/”hold”/pick up every time you see your bun during training. If you try to every time you see your bun, your bun will learn hands = pick up and might fight you. Try to only do these training steps a few times a day, at no specific time. Go about your day like normal with the buns otherwise. Hand feeding them throughout the process can help them learn to trust your hands wont reach for them all the time as well

For bonding using the carriers, you really would only need to get to the step of sitting down and holding them for a few seconds/the initial pick up. For bonding without carriers, you would need to train them all the way with pick up training

[GeorgiaFrances]

Thanks so much Mikey for your detailed advice! Fortunately they both like being petted so we can start at holding. I really appreciate the help

[Vienna Blue in France]

Definitely swap buns over regularly in the house, once every two days max.
Bucky may have his nose put out of joint a bit, but he’ll have to get over that. The longer you leave him in the lion’s share of the house the longer he will think he is topbun. Thats what happened with mine. I favoured the house bun over the newbie and i shouldnt have….

Doing the swaps will also get each bun used to the others smell without putting them close to each other and causing disputes.

Do not break up bun fights with bare hands. Ski gloves or oven gloves are the minimum required protection unless you have such a quick reaction they do not realise what is happening…. but only an experienced bunny bonder can do that (and theeen human injuries not guaranteed)

[GeorgiaFrances]

Ohh okay, so letting Bucky be close to us most of the time will just be reinforcing that he is top bun. That makes a lot of sense to me. I know he will be annoyed, but is it cruel to put him down the other end when he’s been up here so long? I mean will it hurt him or just make him annoyed, do you think? And ditto Layla, when she gets to come down here and then gets put back where she was, she won’t know that she will get to come back again in a couple days, is that going to be damaging at all?
Thanks

[Author]

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