Bonding Bosse and Lola – progress, moving questions

[Svandis]

So today we will start the bonding process for Bosse and new addition, Lola. 

 

We did some pre bonding yesterday with exchanging Body doubles. Bosse groomes Lolas and otherwise ignored it. Lola digged og his, groomed and chinned it, peeing near it and pooping all around it lol. I think she will be the more difficult one. 

Bosse managed to slip out of the bedroom and hopped right on over to her setup. She was luckily inside her cage. I didnt want to create a negative first impression so i didnt separate. They smelled each other through the bars, Lola went on a pee and poop spree, and they were pretty confrontational w each other. There was a tiny scuffle that ended right away. After that they just smelled each other but there were a few intense moments. I kept petting them both when these moments occured and they calmed down. I fed them their veggies on either side of thw bars and they ate in front of each other. Bosse was a bit hesitant. After that they ignored each other for a bit and at one point they both started snoozing and laid down. After that, bosse went past her cage really close, and she nipped him on the butt. She drew a little bit of fur but nothing serious. Bosse wasnt really phased by it. I calmed them down, petted them both and ended their little surprise session. It went alright, but there was a lot of intense energy. Oh! Forgot to mention that Lola flopped two times near the edge of thw cage where bosse was. 

Other than that things have been going great! Lola is such a freaking happy go lucky bun. Playful and cuddly. A lot more active than bosse. I hope it will rub off on him a little. He can be a bit too shy for his own good.

Lola has a monster of an appetite. No wonder, she needs fuel for all that energy. She is very small, smaller than bosse, and pretty thin, but a healthy weight.

First proper bonding session will start up within the hour, wish me luck!

[Svandis]

Here is a video of her and my bf playing around with her treat ball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKDlgif9aW4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Svandis]

[Svandis]

Okay.. They started fighting, big time I set up the area in the hallway, totally neutral. I put Bosse in first since Lola more territorial, and because Bosse is more skittish. When Bosse was relaxed, we put Lola in. It took about three seconds of looking around before there was a full on attack, instigated by Lola. Fur everywhere, and she was laying on her side just boxing, biting. Bosse did a little back, but was mostly being attacked. I reacted pretty instinctually and pulled Lola off him, and she bit me pretty deep.

They were both fine afterwards, no wounds, They both handled it like champs. I didn’t want the last thing they remembered to be the scuffle, so after they’d calmed down, we tried to stress bond them on the washing machine. Was probably a bad idea, maybe we should have stopped it there. It worked for a few minutes though. They huddled up and just sat there for a good while, but Lola calmed herself down and once she did, she attacked him again. This time I was wearing gloves so she couldn’t bite me, but she was hanging on to Bosse by her teeth. Just the fur thankfully.

We ended the session there. They were both fine after, and started eating and relaxing in each their area, they seemed pretty unaffected by the whole thing.

To sum it up, this is going to be hard. I don’t know what to do next. What do you think is the best way to go from here?

Feeling like it was a total failure.

[CooperLop]

Sounds like a very small box or carrier stress bonding with lots of movement might be a good next step. Either carrying them around the house in the box or a car ride so that there’s not really a chance for Lola to feel comfortable enough to start attacking again. Don’t feel like a failure, maybe just try different approaches until something works. Bonding isn’t one size fits all!

[Svandis]

Thanks Cooper! Will try more stress bonding then. Im just a bitt worried because bosse is easily stressed. But i think he will be ok. If he seeks comfort in Lola, that would be great.

When should i give it another go?

[Svandis]

And how long should the session last?

[CooperLop]

I would do a fairly short one where you get them to cuddle, then before anything else can happen, separate them so it’s a 100% positive experience.

[Svandis]

Ok, thanks. Will try later today

[Sindri]

I also suggest the small box and stress bonding. I am in the process of bonding right now. I wish I had started out that way. I wish you luck!

[Svandis]

Thank you sindriona

[MoveDiagonally]

I third stress bonding. Lol.

I have never had much success with the the washer stress bonding method. I think a small space, like a box or cube, and shaking it work well. A laundry basket has worked for me as well. 

Keep us posted!

[MoveDiagonally]

Mine in the cube:

My bunnies in a basket:

[Svandis]

Thank you so much MoveDiagonally!
The only thing im worried about is that they will start fighting while in hholding the box, and wont be able to stop them in time. She really goes in for the kill.

The people i adopted her from told me that she had been nippy with the rabbit they tried to bond her with, but that it had stopped after a while. But she is not just nipping bosse, its a full on fight. Im just nervous

I didnt try to bond them again last night, i will do it today, when the bf wakes up and can assist me. I will put them in a small box, small as you cube box, movediagonally, and try to carry them around, my bf will be on fight duty, and i will have the vaccuum handy to stress them more if lola seems to get comfortable/agressive.

[Svandis]

Here is the only photo i got from yesterdays bonding. This is before we put lola in with him, in the first setup. The pink box is the box we used on the washing machine, and the box we will use for stress bonding.

[Svandis]

Todays bonding session went a lot better. I know it might seem silly to have the strainer over lolas face the entire time, but we simply just dont quite trust her yet. Good idea or bad idea? Next session we might remove it. 

We had them in there for about 20 minutes actually. No scuffles. Bosse seeked comfort in Lola, but Lola mostly just sat there. She didnt charge or anything. We dont know if its because the strainer was there or because she simply wasnt agressive. All in all nothing interesting really happened, and thats progess

[CooperLop]

Great! Nothing interesting is huge progress

[Svandis]

Yeah! any thoughts on the strainer?

[Sindri]

I have used a strainer when I was tub bonding. If its something you feel comfortable using use it. I would however take it away from time to time to see what happens it may not be totally needed. I also drag the box around on the floor when my male starts to attack it breaks fights up pretty easily. Not sure if that is something you do. Or you can pick them up and walk around with them.

[Svandis]

Okey thanks! I will try and remove it a few times next session. I will try dragging them on the floor or starting the vaccuum when/if a fight breaks out. Its very loud and will definitely startle them.

[MoveDiagonally]

I would use the colander to break up fights instead of as a barrier.

[MoveDiagonally]

She really goes in for the kill.

Maybe I missed it in a earlier post. What does she do exactly?

[Svandis]

Thats okay, i didnt go into it that much.

Without a moment of hesitation she full on attacked him, the first day of bonding, both times. Its just lucky she didnt actually hurt him. She got me pretty good when i separated them, got a pretty deep bite in my finger, bled quite i bit. Im thinking it might have been just a bad first encounter. Im hoping as the stress bonding progresses that her agression will go away.

The plan was to start the vacuum if anyone got aggressive but it got so serious so fast that i just pulled her away. Now that i know what to expect, i might be able to intervene sooner, with the vacuum or a different stressor.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Lola sounds like a difficult little Diva like my Olivia. That’s how she acted the few times I’ve tried her and Bindi together. She is very aggressive. I can certainly understand your fear and hesitation.

Wish I could be more helpful, but if I could, I would have bonded my two already!

Will be following this thread and seeing what works for your difficult girl.

[Svandis]

She sure is a little diva, that’s for sure, lol!
Thanks

will continue bonding tomorrow, it’s currently 12:30 am and I need to go to bed

The in laws will be in town for the weekend so I’m not sure how many sessions we will have time for, but we are going to at least do it once a day.

Gonna try an get more photos up tomorrow.

[Svandis]

Oh before I forget!
One thing I did right before bonding today, was having a little cuddle session with Lola and Bosses stunt double. I alternated between petting her with my hands and with the stuffed bunny’s paws or ears, and she groomed “him” back a lot. I think it mellowed her out a bit before today’s session.

[Svandis]

I switched their litterboxes last night before i went to bed. Lola got all riled up and started digging up her fleece in her cage, and jumping up and down the two stories of her cage. She chinned the litterbox and hopped in, very careful to sit on the hay side of the litterbox, NOT where the poop was lol. She eventually gave in because it was difficult to eat the hay she was sitting on lol. 

Bosse was pretty chill about it, like has been with the entire process. He chinned the box and went in a little while later. 

[Svandis]

Bonding today was not as good.
Lola wasn’t really stressed at all. I think we need something more stressful for her. She isn’t afraid of the vacuum, and holding and shaking the box didn’t really bother her today. She tried to attack Bosse two times but we had the strainer ready. We cut the session short because the energy was really negative. We cuddled them both for a while in the box, which went ok, but neither of them really relaxed properly. Going to try a different approach tomorrow, just don’t quite now what yet. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[Dwarf Sparrow]

I have a bad feeling my buns are going to be difficult to bond, too- still waiting to make 100% sure the boy’s hormones are gone before I start. I’ll be keeping an eye on your bonding and rooting for you all the way in the mean time! ((binkies and nose bumps))

[Svandis]

Thanks Dwarf Sparrow! If you have any advice I’d be happy to hear it out
I hope you will start up a bonding thread of your own so we can all see how it goes! however, it’s important not to go into the bonding expecting a certain result. Go in with an open mind

[Dwarf Sparrow]

I’ll definitely start up a thread soon  and that’s a really good point- not expecting one thing or another. The buns showed me last night how paranoid I was being haha. I assumed if they were shoving their noses through the gate to sniff each other, biting would follow, so previously I’d been trying to keep them from actually touching noses. But last night I just watched and let them sniff, and there was no nipping. Eventually Merida got bored, though Liam was still very interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V11Z1x_s26w

[Svandis]

Dwarf sparrow – what an adorable video! They are so cute. And seems like they share good energy good luck on your bonding! I will keep an eye out for your thread.

[Svandis]

Todays session:

We tried a different approach today. We wanted to try a session of bathroom bonding and see if it would bring something different to the table. Me and my bf sat on the bathroom floor with each bun in our lap, petting them, before we put them on the bathroom floor in each corner in the little pen. We thought that maybe giving them more space would be worth a try, since there wasnt any chasing the first session – Lola just decided to attack Bosse. Anyway, Bosse got super duper stressed out and when he couldnt get to us, he went to Lola for comfort (great signs from him!), and I pettet Lola while Bosse got close. I put them side by side, nose to nose and pettet them both for a good long while. I stopped petting to see what they would do and leaned back a little. There was nothing for almost two whole minutes of them just sitting next to each other, until Lola finally turned to bosse and bit him. When she bites him she pulls fur. I stopped her and force cuddled them together. Petted them for a while and then stopped after a while to see if she would calm down/get curius of Bosse, or just anything, and something happened! She lowered her head and demanded grooms from Bosse! Bosse didnt groom and tension grew so i petted her and put her back in “position” next to Bosse and petted them again. I think I should have trusted them more and see if maybe Bosse would finally groom, but yeah.. 

We should have ended the session right there. I was however being stubborn and was sure that we were near a breakthrough. Next thing we knew, she turned around and bit him really hard, got a huuge chomp of hair out of Bosses neck/throat area. I stopped her, repositioned them next to each other and pet them both/force snuggled. We ended the session shortly after. She is so fast.

I looked Bosse over right after, and he had a wound in the neck/throat. its a small gash, and it didnt bleed, although it did break the skin. But ughhhh I felt so bad, and I still feel bad. He takes all of her aggression and still wants to be her friend. I’m just really sad about it. During todays session, he never did anything back, just tried even harder to hide his head under her. Like when he tucks his head in under my elbow when I pick him up.

But something positive came out of todays session. She wants him to groom her. Finally something inbetween *nothing/tension* and *attack*. I think Lola is just so dang dominant, and if Bosse would groom her, she might not feel the need to bite him. I don’t know, could I be right? I’m thinking of doing the banana trick next, and as long as Lola is being petted, she wont attack Bosse. We are going to give bathroom bonding a go, as we feel stress bondibg isn’t really doing much to Lola, and Bosse is as stressed as can be without adding more stress.. But we will not bond again until Bosses wound is all healed. We are taking a little break until then, might be a few days/a week or so.

He is doing fine and he was hopping about like normal right after the session, so I dont think he’s in serious pain. We just need to keep an eye out for infection.

[Svandis]

I just realized something! Bosse gets very stressed during bonding, and when he cant get to us, he desperately hurries right over to Lola and gets as close to her as possible. I bet she feels he is intruding her peronal space and thats why she bites him.

When we start up bonding again we could try a session in the hallway where one of us has Bosse next to us, petting him or having him in our lap, and instead let Lola approach Bosse in her own tempo. I think its worth a try  We want to keep changing things up until we find a method that works for both of them. Wish us luck!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Good luck! Poor Bosse, he’s so sweet. That’s exactly the personality of Bindi. The few times I’ve had mine together, Bindi goes right in for a snuggle and Olivia just wants to bite him. Her problem is that she’s so stressed out all the time and has trust and territorial issues.

Why do bunnies have to be so difficult! It’s unreal all the effort it takes to bond two little buggers!

Keep at it, Svandis! I’m rooting for ya!

[Zombie-Sue]

Good luck!

[Svandis]

Okay! We took a break in bonding and we’ve changed strategies! We are now bonding with a fence between them. This har lowered Bosses anxiety and Lolas agressiveness. Now if Lola tries to bite Bosse, i can just quietly say “no” instead of having to be pulling them apart, fur flying. This has also made me a lot less stressful during bonding! Win-win-win. 

There is a lot of grooming wars going on. They will lounge for a while, clean themselves for a while and go back to nose to nose grooming wars. Aka major improvements!! Lola actually licked Bosse just 5 minutes ago!!! I was distracted for a second talking to my bf, and when i saw them, it looked like she was nipping him (which she might still have done), and pushed her away, only to realize she was licking him. Bahhhhh, it has taken SO long to get to this point and i messed it up hah. But all in all GREAT improvements. Been doing 3 hour sessions and will continue doing that until i have time to do a full day session. Once most of the tension is gone and the grooming wars start to get more results, I will open up the fence and make an entrance to meet each other, or just remove the fence – after theyve been in a session for a while. Feeling great that we have finally found the right bonding method for us.

[Svandis]

Funny thing about this bonding experience.. Bosse is so stressed out during bonding and i think he is actually a little bit scared of Lola after that one time she really got at him and bit him in the throat/neck, but he is SO stubborn during the grooming face offs, he is definitely showing signs that he wants to be top bun! We were sure it would be Lola seing she is SO assertive. So this will be interesting. I wonder how she will react if he ever tries to mount her. Im sure she’ll be pissed hah.

[Svandis]

Btw, thanks for the well wished LPT and Zombie Sue!

[LongEaredLions]

That is a really interesting bonding method! I hope it works out!
Love your bunnies by the way!

[Svandis]

Thank you @Longearedlions ! I love your buns as well! White, pretty lionheads – whats not to love!

[Svandis]

I made an instagramaccount for the bunnies! if any of you want to follow us it’s Bobsandlolabunnies. I nicknamed Bosse Bobs because it shorter and easier to understand. I will be updating pictures from bonding sessions more often on there, because I’m having a hard time uploading pics on here seeing as I don’t have a computer, I only have an iPad and my phone. I will keep updating this thread as well though ofc

[LittlePuffyTail]

That’s an interesting idea. ***Crossing fingers for a full bond soon***

[Svandis]

Thank you so much LPT! Crossing my fingers and working hard to bond them because we have fallen utterly in love with this girl..

I am considering opening the fence between them ttonight. There hasnt been too much progress the last two sessions. But they also still havent resolved the grooming issue which is triggering agression in Lola.. what would you guys do?
When they are not in grooming wars, they pretty much just lounging on their own, ignoring the other one.

[Svandis]

However when I think about it, they seem to be getting more and more comfortable around each other during these sessions.. any input would be apreciated!

[Svandis]

I decided to open up the fence between them, after 4-5 hours of fence bonding. They ended up biting each other. I stopped them and force pet them. Let them go and repeat. It wasnt a full on attack this time, but they were biting hard. Not just nips. Bosse was also instigating some of it, although it was mostly Lola. I put up the fence again and now im waiting for a more positive vibe before ending the session. I know i could have tried and kept them together and let them work it out for a while, but those bites looked like they were serious. I mostly just wanted a pinpoint as to where they were at, and will try again tomorrow.

[LongEaredLions]

Posted By Svandis on 4/02/2014 3:58 PM

Thank you @Longearedlions ! I love your buns as well! White, pretty lionheads – whats not to love!

Thank you!

[Svandis]

Bonding has been ok, we’ve been doing the fence bonding, because they kind of “relapsed” when we put them together so they probably just need some more time. Lola showed signs of going into stasis, so we stopped bonding for two days until she was all better. Did a session again yesterday and they are still doing their grooming wars. Although once yesterday instead of going straight for the nip, Lola rough-groomed Bosse a tiny bit before she went in for the nip.

We have decided to take Lola with us when we move because we think that they *can* bond! we just have to be vigilant and take things in their tempo. We don’t want to give her up. Also there aren’t a lot of adoption centers in Norway, and finding a spayed female is almost impossible here, so we feel like giving Lola up would be a huge step backwards.

We are moving in three days. The car ride is going to be about 7 hours, and I was wondering if I should bond them during this ride? Should I try to keep them together the entire ride if it goes well? If that is possible, should I then put them in a pen together when we get to our location, or should I separate them and let them unwind after the ride? Also, if I separate, should I have them in a pen next to each other, or in different rooms?

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