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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING Bonding Attempts

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    • Meg Pressley
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        I should explain the story a little bit first.  My black Mini Rex bunny is named Pixie Marie; I got her June 26th of the year 2010 after I graduated from high school that May.  The Pet Forum in which I bought her from said that she was already three months old, and since I wanted to give her a special day to celebrate I winged it and said that she was born on April 22nd, I’m actually not sure of the exact date; but this is what we have decided to go with.  So for a year she has been my only rabbit; she’s quite the neat and picky rabbit, I might add.  She loves her cage to be set up a specific way, and she loves to be petted and talked to.  (We have them in cages right now because we don’t have enough room to have them anywhere else, and we can’t keep them as free roam rabbit in this house — I’m not technically supposed to have pets since we rent).

        I recently bought a tortoise black Lionhead from the same place.  She was taken there by her previous owners for some reason, of course they told the people at the store that she was a buck, but Mom and I looked online and checked her and have confirmed that she is a doe.  We had named her Aria Skye, and since she is already a year old I am still learning about her and the way she has been raised from her previous owners.  It’s quite difficult, but I’m going to work on training her and hopefully the way we have raised Pixie will work for her eventually as well.

        Of course, Pixie is not the happiest bunny since I brought home the new girl.

        They are both unspayed doe’s, and I know that it’s going to be difficult since they are both doe’s, on top of being unspayed; but right now, with the price ranges of getting them both spayed is out of my price range, I’m going to have to try bonding them whilst they are unspayed.  It’s already presented itself as a challenge, but I really want my girls to be friends and I’m hoping with encouragement and persistence that it will happen.  I have the patience to work on them, but not always the time.

        At first since we didn’t have enough room or arrangements, Aria’s cage was on top of Pixie’s cage — since Aria’s cage was much lighter.  But since I’ve removed the futon in the room — which is why the cages had to be on top of the other — they are now in a corner setting, and close enough for each rabbit to have a good enough scent of each other, but also far apart enough where they cannot really make contact.  I am also trying the stuffed animal bonding trick, but I haven’t really kept note on how that is working out.

        I have had several un-noted trial sessions with them (but I remember some of the gist of what happened), along with one video recorded session (that I have managed to speed up into an eight minute long video — because I tried pushing the session a little longer than I should have).  There first session didn’t do so well, I don’t really have a neutral area for them to be in that’s not busy all the time with foot traffic, nor is it quiet or safe.  The first session happened to be in the wrong place though, I know because I had done it in a place that Pixie had already claimed as her territory (which was bad on my part) and Pixie had attacked Aria.  The second time I had done it again in the same spot, though this time instead of giving them this closed in gated area right in front of Pixie’s cage I moved a few feet away, and my friend who just so happened to go by Bunny, was there to help me (she has cats — but she was a huge help to me that day).  Of course, it had to be cut short because Pixie pulled out one of her nails in the carpet (I had no idea what was going on and I was freaking out and panicking, which was only making things worse for Pixie.  But we got it all set, lots of blood, lots of stress, but with the help of my mom, me, and my friend we were able to get Pixie calmed and slowed her bleeding.  The third time wasn’t much better, again it was in front of Pixie’s cage in Pixie’s territory (but at the time it was the only place I could think of to try to bond them — bad idea).  So after some nipping, and attacking, and humping (from Pixie to Aria), with me interrupting, I separated the two and let them have their peace and quiet for a few weeks, with them coming out at separate intervals to romp around and play.

        Each time during these sessions Pixie would lunge forward and try nip at Aria, but I would pull her away.  Pixie would get a good hump in here and there, and grab some of Aria’s fur and skin, which would make pulling Pixie away difficult because she had a pretty good grip.  I would hold one and let the other roam around, and then I would let go of one for a moment, and if Aria moved just the slightest (a bit too fast to Pixie’s liking I assumed) and Pixie would lunge, nip, and hump.  This happened on all three occasions; though I only read a little bit about bonding during these times and I wasn’t sure what the humping meant — but now I know it was just Pixie trying to say that she is the boss, but we didn’t really like her doing the humping thing.

        So we tried different place to bond them; the living room near the fireplace (which is lifted off the ground on a little mantel thing — and it wasn’t lit and we made sure they were safe).  We used the little x-pen gates to make them their own little bonding space and we put them in their together.  At first they ignored each other and romped around, and then Pixie went in for the attack, and started humping her.  We pulled Pixie off Aria and then I petted Pixie while Aria was roaming around with curiosity…  So then I tried letting Pixie go again and as soon as I did she began humping Aria, again.  So Mom pulled Pixie off and handed her to me and I tried calming her, we figure that since we had been doing this for a good twenty minutes we might as well end it.  So we got Aria out of the xpen, and put Pixie back in.  I held Aria to calm her and then took her back to her little home.  I then went back to the xpen and petted Pixie and told her that she couldn’t do that.

        I thought we were making some progress because when Aria was playing outside of Pixie’s cage Aria would lie next to Pixie’s cage and then Pixie would lie next to her from inside the cage and limits of the splash guards that she has.  On multiple occasions Aria has tried getting into Pixie’s cage, I guess eager for them to get along (since Aria takes everything that Pixie’s does until she’s fed up enough to give Pixie a little nip here and there).  I feel like Aria really does want Pixie as a companion, but Pixie is being extremely stubborn.

        But whenever we put the two together, Pixie wants to hump her and nip her.  On one occasion Pixie got in some scratches, but Aria was fine, just sat there and took it as Pixie did this.  Of course, I stopped Pixie and tried calming Aria afterwards.  On some occasions, after Pixie has attacked and attempted to hump Aria several times I’ll hold Pixie and Aria will come over and try to get some nips and scratches in; and after a while they try lunging at each other because they’re both fed up with each other (but this is only when I stretch the bonding session on for longer periods than they like).

        However, they’re getting better in sessions that are about twenty to thirty minutes long, but any longer than that and they don’t do so well with one another.  I am seeing some progress, but I’ve also noticed some behaviors that I understand is probably simply because of them being stubborn — mostly on Pixie’s behalf.

        She tends to poop outside of her litter box in her cage more often now, she takes a lot of her aggression and stress out on the cardboard tube in her cage which she used to ignore, she poops in her food bowl and water bowl, and when is out and romping around she poops everywhere inside the xpen (which I have attached to both of their cages — because I’m making them share this new play area, but they are never in it together for now).  I understand why the pooping all inside the xpen is happening, but she used to be so good about popping inside her litter box and not in the food bowl or water bowl or outside the litter box.  I just don’t want this to become something she does now because she was so well litter trained.

        Aria on the other hand also poops a lot out in the xpen, but her litter training is going a bit slow because we have yet to set up her cage the way we really want to simply because we haven’t really had the materials or the time (so I’m still not sure of her litter ways according to the set up we’re hoping to do for Aria).  Hopefully things will progress and we’ll be able to get it set up and learn her ways and train her to use the litter box in a better manner and get used to the cage set up (once it’s set up that is).  I’m hoping to get in more bonding sessions on Friday’s, Saturday’s, and Sunday’s — I’m hoping to use the bathroom, or maybe some more time in the living room, or kitchen.

        I’m going to get a notebook to use as a bonding journal so I can write in it during/after the sessions (the date, the time, what happened) so then I can come on here once in a while and update what happened.  I think it may take a while for me to get pictures during the bonding because I want to pay more attention to their reactions and body languages before I spend time trying to capture some bonding moments.  This is all I have for now — sorry it’s so long winded.

         

        EDIT: 3:09 AM forum time.

        P.S.  I’ve already made the decision to do no official bonding, just the simple stunt double stuffed animal until they are both spayed.  So we can now stop mentioning the cost/money and all that; I get it.   If I knew that would have had such a negative result I wouldn’t have even mentioned the money thing, I understand that it all cost a lot, and just telling me not to bond them while they are unspayed would have sufficed, it wasn’t necassary to throw the price in my face.  Thanks <3


      • Elrohwen
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          I don’t mean to be a downer, but bonding two unspayed females is going to be next to impossible. If you try it, make sure you are always on hand to break up fights as females can be extremely territorial towards each other.


        • Meg Pressley
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            Yea, I know. :/ I’m still going to try though, just to see. It’s just right now I don’t have enough money saved up to spay both of them, I have barely enough to spay one of them. I’m definitely present during every bonding session and I think it’ll be a really long time before I even think of leaving them on their own free range together. So for now, I’m mostly trying to get them used to each others smell and being around one another. So hopefully, by the time I am able to get them both spayed, and wait several weeks for them to feel better after wards, I’ll start over (but hopefully they’ll be used to each others smell enough not to harm each other too badly). At least that is what I’m hoping. It might take time, but I’m willing to wait it out if there is a chance they’ll be bonded! :] Thanks for commenting/replying.


          • Beka27
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              I’m going to be blunt, so please consider this carefully: What are you going to do if one of their fights escalate to the point that one or both are badly injured?

              We have seen where a female rabbit has torn the other’s ear requiring surgery for partial “amputation”, and one especially bad case where the rabbit was nearly gutted when the other attacked. If you don’t have money to spay, you don’t have money for emergency vet treatment in case they get into a serious fight.

              I do not recommend that you proceed at this point. It is far too risky. If it were two unneutered males, you *might* be able to give it a try, but definitely not with two females.


            • kralspace
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                please be very careful. Of the seven bunnies I have had, the girls have been the most aggressive, even after spaying. Nips and chases are one thing, an all out attack can cause a lot of injury quickly, they don’t have those sharp nails and teeth just for looks.

                I thought I had my two couples finally bonded together, then one afternoon something triggered a nasty fight and if my smaller rex girl (who I would put money on that she started it) hadn’t been able to hide where Pringles couldn’t pull her out she might have killed her. She had a long shred in one ear that went all the way through, bites and long wounds all over her. I think her extra thick rex coat kept her from being more seriously injured. She was never the same mentally after that either, I kept her in another part of the house by herself because she’d freak out when she got close to the others.

                Even if you got them to tolerate each other now, a lot of couples break once they are neutered/spayed just because their personalities change. Just please be careful.


              • Meg Pressley
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                  I don’t do it enough for them to get too close, just enough to get used to having each other around.  And when I feel it’s getting too serious, I break them apart quickly and calm them down and then put them back in their homes (where they tend to eat, potty, and then lie down after the session).  I probably do this like once a week — if that, and I’ve actually been thinking about it that it’ll probably stay once a week because I don’t have enough time to do it more-so, anyway.  It’ll be for a short moment with them together, and I’ll have them mostly beside one another and petting them most of the time — they wouldn’t have much time to do anything but lay there while being petted.  I try to hold on to Pixie the most so she won’t harm Aria — since Pixie is the most aggressive of my girls, and I’m pretty quick with her because I’m so used to her speed that now she hardly get’s a touch on the girl (especially now that I know how fast she can be in going for Aria when they are close to each other).  The occasional nip now and then is about all Pixie get’s on the girl — most of the time I’m blocking all her moves that I’m the one that get’s bitten and humped now — and I check over Aria really well and she never has any cuts and she’s not bleeding.  She is a bit tender but I’m careful with her to make sure that doesn’t happen often, and I keep an eyes on them both for a few days afterwards to amke sure nothing with their language or anything else has changed.

                  When she did mount and hump and grab fur it was during the first two sessions that she did it the most, and then that one time during the third session and then after that I held them together for a while and petted them and then separated them.  If one gets away from my grip I hold on to the other one and pet her and keep her calm and I block all the other ones moves.  So neither of them get hurt to the point to worry, and when I see that they are getting too worn and stressed or frightened I remove them and give them their little time to calm down and I take them back to their home.

                  And I have about three hundred dollars in my bank account so if anything happened I have some money for a general surgery if needed — and I’m sure my parents would spot me some extra cash too.  Just not enough for a spay, since the nearest Exotics Veterinary Hospital where I am closest to says the spay procedure is $270, and I would have to pay $72 for the exam before, which I’d get a discount on if I mention the vet’s name, and then the pre-blood work which I thought was completely necessary which adds another $63 dollars, that’s the only reason I cannot afford that.  And I am pretty sure if something like that were to happen, I’m a good enough owner to be able to find a way to get things worked out so I could pay for the bill.  (It’s mostly that my parents want me to pay for most of the things, such as food, spay, toys by myself –  I’m pretty sure they would help me out if something worse were to happen).

                  But since I don’t have a lot of room, or a neutral space I don’t do a lot of bonding sessions for a long period of time.  The longest one I think was about forty minutes, and that’s just because I was curious.  It took me another five – for each – to calm the rabbits after I had separated them, and then I put them in their houses, where I gave them treats and fresh water and fresh food and petted them a bit more telling them how good they were.  I’m not pushing them to bond fully until after I get them spayed because I read that their tempers and personalities do change after the procedure, and I don’t want them, if they were to bond, to kill each other afterwards simply because their tempers and personalities changed so much. I do my research, as does my mother (she helps be out with some of the sessions) and we both discuss what we’re going to do with them and stuff before we actually go through with anything.  I’ve had Aria for two months, and Pixie for a year.  Since I got Aria they’ve only had four sessions — considering the time Aria has been here I don’t think that’s a lot if most of them run to about fifteen/twenty minutes.

                  We always remain calm and we’re not far from the rabbits, and we’re quick because we know how fast bunnies are.  Nothing bad-bad has happened, and since we don’t let them together for any longer without us right there close and hovering petting at least one of them during the sessions, I think we’re pretty good for now…  But I probably won’t do them as often simply because of all the foot traffic in the house and not having a really good neutral space or the proper quiet or time for it, it won’t be often or for long….  I suspect once I get this job it will take me about two months to save up some extra casha nd I’ll get Pixie spayed first.  Then I’ll take another good three to four months saving up and get Aria spayed.  And then the official bonding will take place.  Right now I do this just so they’ll get used to having to share a home and some space; and I think the one thing I’ll do the most is probably switch the stuffed animal ever week, and just put them together for a good petting for ten/fifteen minutes once or twice a month (nothing too major, just a lot of petting then I’ll separate them and let them have their individual play time).

                  That’s all I’ve had planned mostly, it’s not like a I’m going to do it every day, three times a day, kind of thing — that would wear on mine and their emotions, oi ve!  It’s a once in a blue moon occurance — sometimes they go several weeks without being put together — everyday on their own of course.

                   

                  Oh geesh, sorry if this came off rude and snippy sounding.  I just wanted to get it all out before I forgot what I wanted to say or mention (I tend to forget things if I don’t write them down).  O-o I do appreciate the advice!


                • LoveChaCha
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                    I would not even attempt to bond them. You could use a stuffed doll to switch between them, but that is it. Stressing our two unaltered rabbits and the risk of bad injuries is not worth it. You may end up spending more money on getting injuries fixed, more than what a spay will cost.

                    Emergency visits are EXPENSIVE. And not all er visits have doctors on staff that know about rabbits.

                    I would suggest saving for one spay in the meantime, and for the other after one is done.


                  • Meg Pressley
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                      Would it be beneficial to also switch litter boxes? Or just leave the switching to the stuffed toy?

                      Oh and when it does come time for the official bonding, how should one start (since I already have their cages close but not close enough for contact)?


                    • Malp_15
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                        A simple laceration surgery can cost upwards of 700 dollars. And I deal with other emergent injuries everyday that are over 2000 dollars.


                      • Meg Pressley
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                          I know, I get it. Already decided not to do any hardcore bonding.

                          I thought about the money, I’ve thought about all this.  I felt like I was a good enough owner and cared about my bunnies enough that I’d be able to handle the situation enough to keep them safe from any kind of harm.  I understand things can happen in the blink of an eye; and it’s not like I would intentionally put them together knowing one of them would hurt the other.  I’ve got a strategy where they hardly do anything but sit there and smell each other.

                          I had a rabbit when I was little, I’ve had Pixie for a little over a year (so I know her bunny language really well and she’s extremely comfortable around me).  I feel like I’ve done enough research, and that I know my bunny enough, that I would be able to stop things before it escalated.  I’m a smart person and I know how to take care of my pets, I’ve had pets for most of my life, so I’m not really new to all this pet stuff.  I did all kinds of research before I got the rabbits, and I wouldn’t have gotten one, let alone two, if I didn’t think I couldn’t handle it.

                          The only time I freaked was when Pixie pulled out her nail, and she was bleeding and the first thing that ran through my mind was “Oh God my rabbit is bleeding”, everything else except trying to stop the bleeding and make her feel better, left my brain.  Mommy mode was on.  I was lucky enough to have people around, and whenever I do bonding I always make sure that there is someone else around in ear shot if I need their help.

                          I appreciate the concern for my bunnies, but all I needed was for you to say not to bond them until they are spayed because if they are injured it could cost a lot more.  We didn’t have to go into actual number.  I should have just not said anything about it, period, from the get go.  I appreciate the concern and the advice.

                          I will come back here in the future to let you know when they are being/or have been spayed, and then start talking about the bonding again.  Thank you.  <3


                        • Beka27
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                            You sound like a very good bunny mom, especially for being a young person. I saw your set-up in the other thread and it looks nice for the amount of space you have available. If this is your first time having two rabbits, then this is a whole new experience. Things can turn bad quicker than you can react, so that is why we are concerned. Your buns are very pretty and we don’t want anything bad to happen. And as others have said, surgeries are expensive, much more than routine spays… the cheapest surgery price I’ve ever seen has been at least $4-500. The anesthesia is what makes it cost so much.

                            What you can do is switch habitats, either every night, or switch them for a few days at a time, or a week. That gets them used to the other’s space and scent WITHOUT them being able to reach the other bunny. Plus they live in the same room and share the same pen for exercise time, so they are familiar with each other. The once a week sessions might be doing more harm than good if it’s getting them stressed out.

                            After they are spayed, when you start the bonding sessions for real, they will need to be taken out of the room and moved to a space they’ve never been before (lots of people use the bathtub). Once you start them up, you have to continue EVERYDAY, once a week will not be enough. I would try to do 30-60 minutes EACH DAY, and expect to do bonding sessions for 4 weeks straight at least. It is a large time commitment, but once they are bonded, it will be rewarding for you and they will have a companion.


                          • Meg Pressley
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                              I tend to get a little too emotional, because sometimes I feel like people look at me like you cannot be a good bunny owner and be so young; on top of that not always having a good financial system. But they are definitely more than loved and taken care of. We found this one site — can’t remember the name of it for the life of me — where we can get the food they like, in bulk, for a really good price so they always have food. And we buy them a lot of snacks, but give them a limited amount of those because some of them are HUGE — especially the carrot ones which bothered me because I know they shouldn’t have too much carrot. They love snacks and food — and I’m currently looking to buy hay and a daily hay dispenser for them because they do need more hay!

                              I knew it would be expensive, but I wasn’t quite sure how expensive because I thought that I’d be able to be there and make sure that nothing would happen. And I know things happen quick and very unexpected, like what had happened to Pixie’s paw. Luckily I had my Mom and my friend around so we were able to help her. It’s all healed up now — well she has have the claw — and occasionally, if she works herself up too much it’ll bleed just a little. :[ We’re thinking that she’s going to be one of those rabbits that never grows the claw back; which makes me kind of sad. So, I realize that it’s probably not best, because if something like that happened, and more extreme than that, honestly… I probably wouldn’t be able to handle it, emotionally. I’d definitely find a way to pay for it, but it would definitely effect me emotionally.

                              Yes, once I get Aria’s cage set up a bit better (because I don’t want to stick Pixie in there while it’s just cage bottom right now) I will probably switch them in the cages. I am definitely doing the stunt double thing until I have Aria’s cage up and then I’ll do the switching of the cages. Hopefully it won’t take me too long to save up for the spay (especially if I can find a good place for a little cheaper) and I’ll give them their re-coop time and let them relax and I’ll take it slow and from the top. :] Until the spay and their re-coop definitely no more sessions because I really don’t want them to hurt each other — and with my luck it would happen.

                              I’ve used the tub for bathing them every once in a while, so would it still be safe to use the tub as a neutral ground? Or would it be best for me to do this in a space I know neither of them know really well, like the living room or the kitchen — I just feel like the kitchen and the living room would seize to be difficult since it’s louder in there and has much more foot traffic? I am definitely committed to bonding them, our hope is that they’ll be really good friends and eventually be able to live with one another and share space without wanting to hurt each other. Now, if I get them bonded and we end up moving to a bigger home would I have to start the bonding process over again (we don’t look forward to moving so soon after their bonding — it would probably be about a year after, but I was just curious so I know for the future).


                            • kralspace
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                                Thought I’d show you how I have my room setup to try and bond my young guy, DammitCharlie, to my trio of older buns. Charlies on the right, until this past weekend he had a 3 level condo in that spot and it was raised about two feet so the others could smell him but not really see him unless they were across the room. Talk about poo/pee wars! The floor around the base was constantly covered by Daisy and Toby, the two guys, and I had to mop and scrub the floor every night. They’ve been housed together in the same room for 9 months now.

                                I’ve been working with Charlie separately with my girl Pringles and the oldest, laid back fellow, Toby and they can now exist comfortably in the same room for an evening with Charlie (and me and the squirt bottle handy). But Daisy is another matter. He goes for Charlie every time even if Charlie’s minding his own business across the room. They’re ok in the small bonding box, but any larger area and it’s a full-on fight. The Pringles/ Daisy love story probably has a lot to do with it because he’s very obsessed with her.

                                 

                                There’s a double layer of NIC walls surrounding Charlie, with bricks in between and laced at the top so they can’t be pushed together or fall down if someone is messing with them. Strangely enough, the poo and pee marking has almost totally stopped. Just a few poos on either side.

                                I will find Pringles and Toby lounging against the wall with Charlie on the other side, but so far Daisy won’t go over there, but I’m hoping with more stress bonding sessions with Charlie, he’ll start to come around. I don’t think I would ever trust him free ranging with Charlie but if I could just be able to let Charlie have some play time each day with them it will be ok.

                                If you can find those bonding threads Petzy wrote, you might find that noisy, distracting areas you’re avoiding are good for bonding. The idea is that the buns will turn to each other for security and safety. Petzy would take them for car rides, sit the box on the washing machine, had it hanging from bungee cords, all kinds of  situations that would not totally frighten the bunnies, but distract them to the point where they’d put aside their differences and band together. It takes regular sessions so they don’t backslide. I wish you all the luck because it can drive you nuts!

                                 

                                 

                                 


                              • Meg Pressley
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                                  I’ll definitely have to find that thread and read it; sounds quite interesting. I’ll take a gander and read it and once they are spayed I’ll start bonding them. It would be interesting to try some of this on my girls after they are spayed to see if doing this would help bond them and make them closer. I think I would try that a little after they’re at least used to one another (maybe around the third session I’ll try this after I read about how Petzy did it).

                                  I appreciate the advice and the picture, thank you so much. :3


                                • kralspace
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                                    here’s a couple of her threads

                                     

                                    https://www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a…fault.aspx

                                     

                                    https://www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a…fault.aspx

                                     

                                    and Mark’s bonding journal with Her Highness Maryann is a great read in persistence!

                                    https://www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a…fault.aspx

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                     


                                  • Meg Pressley
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                                      Thanks for the links, I appreciate that :3


                                    • Meg Pressley
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                                        I found a vet and will hopefully have them spayed in the next few months after I save up enough money.

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                                    Forum BONDING Bonding Attempts