Bonding a trio– Advice please!!

[TrioAGI]

 I was wondering if anyone had any advice for us:

We have a bonded pair, male and female, Alfie and Gorie. It took them about three days to bond fully, and now they’re absolutely inseperable. It was love at first sight.

We just adopted a third, a female, Ivy. At first, in our first session after the shelter (which was very cuddly), Ivy and Gorie and Alfie were grooming each other and really cuddly and sweet. Unfortunately, we were lulled into a false sense of security (and a little naive after Alfie and Gorie were so easy to bond) and we left them together too long, something went wrong where Ivy ended up accidentally cornering Gorie and a fight broke out between the two girls, with our little Alfie boy nervously caught in the middle. We seperated them immediately, but Ivy broke through the barrier while we weren’t looking and fought Gorie again. Again, we seperated them immediately and reinforced the pens. 

We waited three days until our next session, which was ugly and we had to remove them after about thirty seconds. It’s been about three weeks, and the only progress we see is in Alfie and Gorie. We do bonding one-on-one now, one with Gorie and Ivy and one with Alfie and Ivy, to relieve some tension. Ivy is extremely nervous and defensive, with her ears up and really tense posture. When Alfie or Gorie come over to say hello, she bats at them or growls or nips. 

Also, I noticed she hasn’t been eating a whole lot, or at least not as much as our other two. I had all their food bowls set up together against the gate so they would eat together, but when I noticed she wasn’t eating I moved her bowl to a more private spot, and now she’s eating a lot more. She hides in a little box all day and gets aggressive when you put your hand in, unless you’re sitting with her for a few hours and then she’ll come out and play and be pet. She’s basically incredibly nervous all the time. 

I’m wondering if I should move her pen out of sight of the other two. I know it’s standard procedure to keep the pens next to each other so that the buns can smell and interact with each other, but it seems like she feels like she’s being bullied or watched, and it’s making her nervous. I don’t know if uprooting her is a good idea (we already did once to give everyone more space), but she seems especially nervous around the two other bunnies. 

I’m not sure if our progress is just normal, though, and we should just leave it as it is and let her gradually become more and more comfortable… are there any thoughts, or maybe tips on bonding a trio? I can’t find any good articles specifically about trios. 

Thanks so much for your help!

Sara & Julien

[MoveDiagonally]

Have you thought about stress bonding?

Putting Ivy and Gorie together and taking them for a car ride or putting them in a basket and shaking them up a bit. The idea is that they get stressed out and huddle together for comfort. You might want to include Alfie too because trio dynamics can be different then pair dynamics.

Here are some more care free stress bonding ideas:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/124529/Default.aspx

As for moving Ivy’s pen. I’m not sure. When I put a single bun next to my bonded pair (I’m pre bonding) the bonded pair reacted much like Ivy did. They eventually did get back to normal and the presence of the third bunny doesn’t bother them anymore. So I would be inclined to say that she’ll probably relax eventually. If you want to pause bonding until she settles in and they get comfortable with being near each other or push forward is completely up to you and what you know of your rabbits.

Overall it sounds like you’re on the right track. I do hope someone with a little more hands on trio bonding experience stops by this thread to give you more specific advice. My advice is a lot more academic because I’m still in the pre-bonding stages of putting my trio together.

Best of luck!

[TrioAGI]

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate the link on stress bonding because we don’t have a car and there were some good ideas… I was thinking of putting them in the bathtub without any water in it, but my Gorie gets SO UPSET in the bathtub (we tried it once with Gorie and Alfie while bonding because someone suggested it– they didn’t need it at all, I really regret it, but this case is different), I wasn’t sure. It’s sort of a “last ditch effort” sort of thing for me because it’s SO scary for her.

[MoveDiagonally]

I think if the tub causes intense fear than it would be good to avoid it. Stress can help but you don’t want Gorie to act out with fear aggression.

I would give stress bonding a try and see if it helps at all.

If you can, keep us posted on your progress (even if people don’t reply a lot at first). I’m sure other people will pop in and give advice along the way.

[TrioAGI]

Thanks! Yeah, we had a good session last night… I think.

Gorie and Ivy have a habit of coming together very fast, and putting their faces together while they’re both snuggled close in the litter box. Last night we interrupted a long session of this, to end on a “good” note, but to tell you the truth I’m not sure if they’re cuddling or if they’re biding their time to find a way to bite each other, because it’s SO INTENSE. Sometimes when they’re very very close like that it erupts in some slight nipping, but they don’t bite each other on the face, thank goodness.

We’re trying to be careful not to take them right away when they nip, because we don’t want to teach them that if they fight, the bonding session ends immediately. That’s actually been working well to calm everyone down. We made the mistake in the beginning of taking them right away when they got aggressive. But it’s difficult to maneuver because sometimes it escalates quickly.

What sort of stress bonding do you recommend? We don’t have a car, and the tub is VERY stressful for Gorie, probably too stressful. We have a slippery floor, sort of, but the problem with that is that for some reason Gorie’s paws are less adjusted to slippery floors than Ivy’s and Alfie’s, so Gorie is at a disadvantage. I can’t figure out why, but that’s the case. Maybe it has something to do with Gorie being more of a field bunny, while Alfie is a lionhead/angora and Ivy is almost like a slightly bigger version of a Netherland dwarf… I think maybe Ivy and Alfie are pet breeds while Gorie is more closely related to outdoor bunnies, and that might cause the difference in their paws.

[Deleted User]

I’m really sorry no one experienced has picked up this thread, … happens some times and is frustrating! I begin with that because I have never (and don’t think I would) attempted to bond a pair, let alone a trio. However, the subject interests me so for what its worth I’ll tell you what has stuck in my mind after reading up on the topic and following other threads.

First, you may want to checkout the Bunny Info link on this forum. There is a section on bonding in it, and maybe one of the ideas in there might be of help. There’s one in particular, using a stuffed animal to help an aggressive rabbit take out some of its hostility on a “rabbit” it cannot actually damage. Anyway, I’d think that is worth a read.

Alternatives to cars for stress bonding, … I’ve read some members tuck them in laundry baskets and put the basket up on a washing machine. Another person mentioned running the vacuum cleaner in short bursts while they are together. One idea that I thought very appealing (not exactly stress bonding but) was to put both facing the same way in something that would hold them close together, like a laundry basket or box, then kneel behind them and stroke “groom” their heads at the same time.

There is a bonding section on the forum and doing a search in it (especially using trio?) would probably net you some more ideas and insights. Please keep posting, I’ll be very interested to see how things progress.

Best of luck!, \

[Deleted User]

Was wondering how things are going? Any progress?

[TrioAGI]

Thanks for the interest! Basically, we’ve been bonding them in pairs instead of the trio (Gorie and Ivy, Alfie and Ivy) and the progress is slow, but it’s happening. Apparently it can take months for a trio to be fully bonded (I had no idea of the timeframe, so we were worried), so I think our progress so far is actually okay. We cut down on the time we have them together and now we just concentrate on ending on a good note. Everyone seems a bit more comfortable with this track, and I think we’ll be able to read their body language better when they’re ready to spend more time together.

A lot of it has to do with the fact that Ivy is getting more and more comfortable with us and her surroundings, as well. Also we had some more sessions with her and Alfie (at first we were concentrating on just her and Gorie because they were fighting), splitting the time more equally, and since she’s made a little friend in him (sort of– a cautious and nervous friendship), she seems more comfortable.

We didn’t try any stress bonding, and really we’ll only use that as a last resort. Basically, it might take an exceedingly long time, but our buns are on their way.

If you have any more advice, please let us know! We’ll take all the help we can get!

[Deleted User]

I’m so glad to hear things are going better! Happy a little research helped too.

I’m sure you both being more relaxed and confident while they are out and together is a big help to the whole process. Expect poor little Ivy’s adjusting to her new home will make things easier as well.

Perhaps you are reaching a stage where using the stuffed animals might become helpful?

You are much braver then I am (tempting as I find the thought of a third rabbit), but if I see any tips that catch my attention I’ll be sure to share. Please do keep updates coming!

[TrioAGI]

It’s really hard to find straightforward research on this topic. Bonding two bunnies, sure… bonding three, I can find barely anything! It took me writing a nervous email to the shelter to find out that it could take months.

I have no idea how the stuffed rabbit is supposed to work… My rabbits don’t get fooled by stuffed animals. Any time I’ve introduced one to see how they’d react, they sniff it and then start chewing on it like it’s just another toy. But even if it did work, I don’t want Ivy to get accustomed to being able to take out her aggression. I want her to learn control, because I don’t want her terrorizing the first pair if she learns she can be aggressive without consequences.

If she ever growls at my hand or bats at it, I just sit there quietly, not taking the hand away, until I move it forward slowly and pet her on her ears. She always accepts this eventually, sometimes with a little insolent grumbling, but she relaxes soon enough. Her aggression is just a front to show us all how tough she is, and the more she learns that it’s for nothing, the less aggressive she is. She hasn’t growled or batted in our last three bonding sessions, and they even were a little less tense than usual. Progress!

I’m actually rather surprised that this site would have advice to encourage violence, I don’t suggest it with your bunnies. I think the solution to those problems is discovering and alleviating the cause of the stress in the first place. But thank you for your help otherwise! I’m really glad that you’re taking an interest. It’s nice to know there are people willing to help when you get a little stuck!

Please let us know if you think of anything else!

[Deleted User]

Sounds as though you are handling Ivy’s aggression towards you very well. Forgive me, but I think you got the point of the stuffed animal a little mixed up. It isn’t that using them encourages aggression, it is that unlike a living rabbit the stuffed toy will “react” much as you are when dealing with her behaviour. It will not attack in return, she cannot actually damage it, and the bad behaviour is not rewarded or responded to, so as with your lack of response (no fear, no retreat, no attack), the aggression is proved useless and you can progress past that stage. While it is an idea that makes sense to me you naturally need to use methods that feel right to you, … just wanted to try to explain the thinking behind the technique to make it a little more clear, since I believe you may be getting an inaccurate impression of what was being suggested.

Hope things continue to progress positively and steadily.

[MoveDiagonally]

Posted By SaraFlorence on 05/23/2013 08:00 AM

I’m actually rather surprised that this site would have advice to encourage violence, I don’t suggest it with your bunnies. I think the solution to those problems is discovering and alleviating the cause of the stress in the first place. But thank you for your help otherwise! I’m really glad that you’re taking an interest. It’s nice to know there are people willing to help when you get a little stuck!

I agree with Grey Dove, the stuffed animal is not and does not encourage violence. It’s actually basically the same technique you described, not being responsive to aggression to curb aggression, without putting another rabbit at risk. It’s not for everybunny, for sure, but since the philosophy behind it is the same behind you not moving your hand I don’t think it’s fair to judge it as “ecouraging violence”. Rabbits can’t learn to “control” their aggression but  they can learn that aggression is not an effective way to get what they want. 

One thing I would like to mention as you get closer to getting these 3 together. When you get into the last stages of bonding and have them all together for 24+ hours it would NOT be beneficial to separate if a fight were to break out. Instead it would be better to stress bond them and keep them together until their bond is cemented. This is advice from a member here that has 4 rabbits bonded together and living happily (Tanlover). I beleive she’s adding a 5th in the near future. She knows her bonding. 

I’m glad things are going well! Please do keep us posted

[TrioAGI]

Well, again, I have no idea how this stuffed animal thing would even work though. What are the rabbits that are tricked by a stuffed animal? I’ve given Ivy a stuffed animal before (not thinking to use it to curb her aggression), and she treated it like any other toy, sniffing it and then chewing at it and ultimately ignoring it because it wasn’t fun to chew. Even when I moved it around like an animal, she just sniffed it like she sniffs at the little plastic cat toys I give her, pulled at it once or twice, and then ignored it again.

Also, I’m of the camp that encouraging a “vent” of aggression is just a catalyst for more aggression. You say that bunnies can’t learn to control their behavior, and yet that’s exactly what she’s doing. Sometimes these little creatures surpass our expectations! The reason I don’t move my hand away when she (used to) bat at it is because she wouldn’t dare do it more than once, so it’s absolutely not like a stuffed toy she can vent aggression on. She’ll growl a bit, but it becomes more and more subdued. She’s learning that there’s no reason to be afraid, no reason to lash out at others.

Honestly, I think it’s even a bit dangerous to give them something to take their aggression out on, especially when you’re about to put them with other rabbits. It teaches them that they can vent aggression without consequences. How can you say that a rabbit who can’t differentiate between a stuffed toy and a real rabbit (because they’re being aggressive toward the toy and seeing it as a threat) will ultimately make that distinction when they’re with the other rabbits? Maybe it’s the cause of disruptions further down the line in bondings, and I don’t want to take the risk.

Especially since, more importantly: she doesn’t bat anymore, and she rarely growls, only in bonding sessions when she gets a little cornered unexpectedly. It might happen again, but it doesn’t seem like it because she’s much calmer during bonding sessions and her ears aren’t straight up in alarm-mode anymore, and I’m hopeful for the future!

We haven’t been separating them for a while when they would have little scuffles. We would physically separate them, but keep them in the bonding session. Thanks for the advice for the future. We’ll be sure not to separate them in different pens once the real work gets started. I would do stress bonding as an absolute last resort, because my poor Gorie is so sensitive to outside stress, she really is a very nervous little girl.

Thanks so much for your help!

[MoveDiagonally]

The stuffed toy method does not work for every rabbit and it sounds like it’s not the method for you. So I’m not trying to convince you to use this method I was simply offering you an explanation to it’s purpose.

It’s NOT about venting or encouraging aggression. The reason not moving your hand away method works is because you’re teaching her that being aggressive does not get her what she wants (you moving your hand away would be what she wanted). Stuffed toys are used as surrogates for this exact same lesson without putting another rabbit in jeopardy. So the consequence of being aggressive is that they don’t get what they want (whatever they want away from them).

Usually the toys are swapped around between the rabbits being bonded to get the acclimated to another rabbits scent being in their “territory”.

But honestly this is nether here nor there since this is not going to be used with your rabbits.  

[Deleted User]

Ditto all that Move Diagonally said in her explanation. I would like to add that I really do not under estimate animals, rabbits or others, I know they are clever and learn quickly. Do think it is important to be clear on what it is they are learning though. Ivy is finding out that a certain behaviour pattern doesn’t work when she uses it on you. She isn’t “controlling” her aggression, she is finding out that one, it doesn’t bring the desired effect (removal of hand); and two, more submissive behaviour earns a reward (head rub). This is a form of positive reinforcement. They are very bright and understand a lot, but attributing human thought processes to them doesn’t usually help when trying to interact with them.

Whatever method you use it is the same process going on between her and the other two rabbits, they all need to learn that aggression is unproductive and ineffective. It isn’t that they’ll control it, its simply that they will put their efforts into other more positive ways of expressing themselves as they become more comfortable together and feel less threatened. They are animals, they believe they have to defend themselves and their territory, that is natural for them. A lot like you can teach a dog to give you his bone, but don’t expect him to hand it over the first time you ask, and he’ll probably never be exactly thrilled that you want it. Its a learning process for all of us (animals and their humans) all the time, everyday.

[TrioAGI]

Thanks for all your help, guys, we really appreciate it!

During the last few bonding sessions, there was no overt aggression, and we were making some real progress, but unfortunately we’ve decided to hold off bonding for a bit because our girl Gorie has gotten very nervous and lost a little weight. She’s a very emotional and delicate bunny (moreso than others), and she doesn’t handle stress very well. We separated the buns, and now she’s doing well. I think it was the stress of having Ivy right next to her in the next pen for the entire day.

We’re fortunate enough here to be able to read French-language bonding techniques on French web sites, and a lot of them had a little passage about not going straight into bonding and keeping your bunnies side-by-side when you bring your new bunny home because they will become aggressive and it will make all the bunnies nervous, and instead you should acclimate the new bunny for a few weeks to its new bunny parents. (If that was every a topic on an English site, I haven’t noticed it) So that’s what we did, we separated them and we’re going to wait a few months to try again. So far, Ivy is doing great in this regard! She seems so much happier and she’s even eating more than she was. LOTS more binkies. I think she needed a little more adjustment time, especially considering her past in the shelter: She was returned to the shelter TWICE by people who “didn’t have enough time for her” so she wasn’t very trusting of humans.

Here’s another question though: We happen to be moving in a few months, and we were wondering if that would be a good time to try bonding again, since it will be a neutral environment for all three rabbits at first? Or should we maybe try to get all the bunnies comfortable and used to their environment again? I know it’s almost impossible to answer because it’s us who are with the bunnies all day, but any experience or advice that might help with the decision would be helpful!

And I have to say that I just disagree with the stuffed animal aggression-relief technique, so if we wouldn’t mind just agreeing to disagree on that topic I would really appreciate it. We all have different ideas on raising the rabbits we love! Thank you so much for your help, it’s given us a lot to think about!

[MoveDiagonally]

“We’re fortunate enough here to be able to read French-language bonding techniques on French web sites, and a lot of them had a little passage about not going straight into bonding and keeping your bunnies side-by-side when you bring your new bunny home because they will become aggressive and it will make all the bunnies nervous, and instead you should acclimate the new bunny for a few weeks to its new bunny parents. (If that was every a topic on an English site, I haven’t noticed it) ”

Yes, this is brought up on many English sites. In fact the BB bonding page mentions it under “pre-bonding”.
https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/tabid/53/CategoryID/9/PID/940/Default.aspx

It should be noted that it does not eliminate the risk of aggression.  In some rabbits it actually INCREASES aggression. So it’s really dependent on the individual bunnies involved. I’m bonding a trio right now that were next to each other for a year before we started and there was still aggression.

“Here’s another question though: We happen to be moving in a few months, and we were wondering if that would be a good time to try bonding again, since it will be a neutral environment for all three rabbits at first? Or should we maybe try to get all the bunnies comfortable and used to their environment again? I know it’s almost impossible to answer because it’s us who are with the bunnies all day, but any experience or advice that might help with the decision would be helpful! ”

This is going to come down to your preference. Since you’ve said multiple times that you have at least one rabbit that does not respond well to stress you might want to wait until they adjust as moving is stressful for them.

[TrioAGI]

Yeah, I’d seen that on Binky Bunny before but I was reading it at first as a “tip that may or may not work” rather than a warning against putting the pens next to each other. (I think I wasn’t clear: The French sites specifically warned against putting bunnies next to each other right away, and said that if you ever do put them next to each other, make sure it’s for a brief amount of time or there will be aggression.) Yes, basically I think that putting the pens next to each other really made the bunnies nervous, we’re definitely going to wait a while before re-introducing them.

I actually had them completely separated in two different rooms at first, because that’s what we did when we bonded Alfie and Gorie which went so well, but a shelter worker volunteered to come by after we adopted Ivy and told us it was wrong to keep them separated and to set them up next to each other. That’s actually when the aggression started, so now I regret doing it! She kept saying that unless it takes months to bond rabbits, they’re not “really” bonded… which clearly isn’t true of my first two, so I guess that should have tipped me off to pay more attention to my instincts.

[MoveDiagonally]

Honestly, I think it’s just a bunch of opinion. Keeping them next to each other or not keeping them next to each other it really just comes down to the rabbits involved. In some cases it helps bonding move along because they get used to each other’s smells, etc… In other cases it can cause aggression.

My trio was next to each other for a year and we still had aggression in the beginning. The original pair I had was next to each other for a while before bonding too and there was no aggression at all during their bonding. They bonded in 18 days and looking back they could have probably been bonded in half that time. It was my first bond and I was being overly cautious.

Personally, I don’t think them being housed next to each other had/is having much affect on the bonding process. More likely my original pair was easy because they had compatable personalites. Trios are harder in general and I have two bunnies that want to be the boss so they fought. 

[NewBunnyOwner123]

Sally and Harley were right next to each other while I was waiting for them to get spayed and neutered and their bonding sessions weren’t really bonding sessions at all. It was like they knew each other already. They moved in together after only 3 days and that was me being overly cautious.

It can sometimes cause frustration between the buns because they can’t get to the other bun out of aggression but it can also get them used to one another with the scent. It’s really your call on how they react when they are next to each other. If you see lots of lunges and aggression, then seperate. If you just see lots of curiosity, but no aggression and lunging, then I think it’ll be safe to keep them close by.

So all in all, it’s your decision. It depends on what the buns do and how they react to their new neighbor. It can go both ways

[TrioAGI]

It wasn’t aggression, exactly, between Gorie and Ivy when the pens were next to each other. It was curiosity, but it was this kind of REALLY energetic curiosity that told me that it was a nerve-wracking experience for them. Especially when Ivy wouldn’t eat unless I hid her food, and then Gorie started eating less and less, something she does when she’s nervous (Like, for instance, Gorie will never take a treat during or after a bonding session until at least ten minutes later when she’s calmed down). I agree that it depends on the bunny. If it were just Alfie and a bunny like Alfie in the other pen, then I think it would be fine to have them next to each other. Unfortunately my girls are little nervous nellies.

You’re right that it’s all opinions, MoveDiagonally. But it helps to have a bunch of opinions because then you can definitely pick and choose what’s right for your individual bunnies, and a lot of people suggest stuff that you didn’t even think of. When the shelter person told me that I was doing something “wrong” to separate the bunnies, and that Gorie and Alfie’s bonding was “wrong”, it made me scared to try anything else until I saw a strong opinion against putting pens next to each other for an extended period. I guess I needed to be kicked in the head with it.

[Ranjen1]

The hardest part about bonding is that there are no clear cut rules or guidelines. People just offer what worked for them in particular. Bonding my pair was super easy adding a third bun to the mx was a horrible nightmare that eventually worked out, but stress bonding DID not work for them. It just took tons of patience and feeling out what I thought was best for my buns. My first female was so easily stressed that stress bonding in the car or tub was just no an option. We did a lot of exposure to the new bun gradually moving her closer to the other buns pen. Then eventually I did the smaller pen and just babysat them. Now my older female has passed away and I am bondng the existing pair to a new trio. Stress binding is working perfectly for this group. Car rides and dryer rides. I also housed the new buns in my previous bun area after we changed all the carpet and neutralized the entire room. They are separated by a gate from the existing buns and that is going ok. It can take months, but it is worth it…just be patient and listen to your buns..you are the best judge of what to do for them…moving will be a great opportunity to test the stress bonding again…

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