Bonding a trio- advice

[attemptedquad]

Hi everyone! I’ve made some previous threads on attempting to bond a quad and attempting to bond 2 males. I wanted to make a new thread with a proper title to reflect my current bonding goals. I have a bonded pair, Bear (F) and Sage (M) and 2 single buns Bodhi (M) and Salem (M). When putting all 4 together many months ago, Bodhi and Salem would just fight while the pair huddled together. Bodhi ended up hurting Salem, so I had to separate them for a while to heal and try to forget. From then on, I worked for months on getting Bodhi and Salem to get along by bonding the two of them. I tried stress bonding, dates, table bonding, big spaces, small spaces, and finally attempting 24/7 bonding as a last resort, all results failing in Bodhi seeming very unwilling to bond and latching onto Salem with real bites, not just nipping.

As an attempt to reduce my workload, give the bunnies more space and free roam time, and get the most bunnies a friend, I’ve decided to attempt bonding Salem into the pair to make a trio. Perks: Salem only seems to show aggression in bonding when he is actively being harmed, Salem and Bear used to show a lot of affection and interest with each other when they were in quad bonding sessions or being housed next to each other, and Bear and Sage were pretty much an instant bond, even with me being absolutely clueless on bonding and them bonding in a really not neutral area (oops). Bear and Sage really only ever had one fur pulling fight and it was when I was bonding them in a shared free roam area. I’m also a teacher and I’m off for the summer, so I have the time now and ability to stay up overnight. Another perk is all bunnies have been fixed for over a year at this point, so there’s no risk of any hormones left. I really love the idea of this because if they do become a trio, the 3 can all share my basement and have a really amazing setup with a lot of stimulation and space(~700 sq ft). My single bunny would then be moved upstairs (where the current pair lives) and have his own bedroom and a lot of free roam time upstairs. I’ve got some BIG buns, with Salem and Bodhi being 10+ pounds, so a lot of space is really important to me.

The cons are: obviously the stress involved for everyone, one bunny being involved in multiple fights with a different bunny, and the fact that Salem very rarely would groom Bodhi, but I think a lot of this was due to holding a grudge. While I’m not worried about Salem and Bear, I do have some concern with Salem and Sage because I can see them fighting over Bear or fighting to see who the top bun is. I’m honestly still confused on who the “dominant” bun is in my existing pair. Bear is the only one I see get groomed, but Sage does still hump her from time to time or nip to communicate, but never real aggression. I watch them a lot on my pet cam, so I probably see more than the average person lol. I’m also a little curious as to how much natural behavior I’ll see from Sage- he was found as a feral bunny from Animal Control and tends to act differently when in the presence of people than from what I see on camera, so I hope that does not mess up the dynamic since I will be around them 24/7.

I really want to try 24/7 or marathon bonding because I’ve heard this is the best way to cause the existing pair to not unbond (they would likely fight after bonding sessions because they would smell the unbonded bunny on each other) and Bear and Salem were both not socialized when they were young and really stress from being picked up and moved around, so I’d rather only have to do it once. I also have the time to stay up with them and have an area I can put a pen or 2 up in my bedroom that is 100% neutral- no bunnies have ever been in that room at all. My biggest worry about this is that they could get to a point of constant fighting, and being able to tell what is dominance and what is actual fighting.

Really looking for some tips from people who have experience with multiples, especially trios! I feel like I can’t really prepare because I know not to swap scents like you would with a pair because it can stress the pair out and cause them to unbond. And can’t do side by side interactions or short dates because of the same issue. I will likely so the marathon bond starting in about 10 days.

Still not completely sure if I should do a larger space or start small because I had success with both methods with Bear and Sage and no success with either with Bodhi and Salem. Any advice from people with trio experience?

[DanaNM]

Hello again!  Here are my thoughts!

So firstly I wouldn’t worry about who is dominant currently and who will be dominant. Honestly it’s often hard to tell, and sometimes we humans end up projecting an outcome on the buns unintentionally that ends up slowing down progress.

Regarding marathoning/unbonding the current pair, etc., going into a marathon “cold turkey” (without any other dating or pre-bonding) can be really stressful for all buns and humans involved. Some people make it work, but in my experience it sets you up for success to do at least some dating first. When I was working on a trio I did pre-bonding, dates between the different combos, dates with all three, etc, and my current pair did not un-bond. There are lots of successful trios out there where the current pair does split and then the trio re-forms. There are also lots of examples where the current pair goes on dates with other rabbits and also does not split. Some people think that this is actually necessary for the trio to actually form, because otherwise the pair may not accept the newcomer (I think this is what happened in my case). I think some version of this probably happens in the marathon, but it’s just all balled up into one long experience.

Regarding this point “My biggest worry about this is that they could get to a point of constant fighting, and being able to tell what is dominance and what is actual fighting.” , you will need to be preventing fighting as much as possible, and stopping fights immediately when they occur.  Mounting, light nipping, a short chase, lunging, grunting are all OK, but if you see circling, boxing, hard biting or bunny tornados this needs to be stopped immediately, and ideally you would be preventing these from happening. So you’ll need to be very aware of the types of behaviors that escalate to fighting.

There have been quite a few successful trios on the forum that have done short dates and pre-bonding. If you search the forum for “trio bonding journal” you will find some successful examples.  My personal approach would be to start with some short dates, and have a separate pen on hand in case you end up needing to split up your pair. Once it’s clear that each combo of bun is at least sort of getting along, that’s when I would go for the marathon with all three. I think if you want the trio, you’ll really need to commit to the trio, even if it means the pair may split up temporarily.

I know there are lots of other approaches out there, so it’s really your call, but that’s just what I would do! And I do think this combo of rabbits sounds pretty promising!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

I completely forgot to check for replies, oops! Lol I’ve been trying to stay off the internet for the last couple of weeks and completely forgot I made this post until I started bonding today.

I didn’t do any prebonding, but so far it seems to be going really great! Obviously preparing for tonight because naughty bunny scuffles tend to start up in the evening for me, but so far there has been no fighting at all at close to 5 hours in. When initially introduced, Salem humped the other 2 like crazy, but neither one seemed to fight it. The humping settled down by about the first hour. Bear, my female, has been grooming Salem on and off and snuggling with him, they seem pretty comfortable together. Sage hasn’t really interacted much with Salem, besides letting him hump him. He did go up to Salem a couple of times to investigate and thumped at him so I can tell my sassy lionhead isn’t exactly thrilled with his presence. I’m very glad that everyone seems comfortable enough to eat lots of hay, stay hydrated and flop/cuddle next to one another at some point.

So far, it seems to me, that Sage is comfortable settling for second in the hierarchy, but I have a feeling the 2 boys will start showing more dominance signs tonight, but trying to stay positive with the great start! Right now everyone’s just napping, so I’ll keep updated on how night goes.

[attemptedquad]

Update 11 hours in: There was a small chasing episode at around 9 hours- not sure what started it as I had stepped out of the room, but everyone settled quickly after I calmed them down a bit and there were no bites. Shockingly, Sage just now groomed Salem, for what I’m assuming is the first time. In this bonding episode, Bear has groomed Salem, Sage has groomed Salem, and Sage has groomed Bear, so already a good amount of grooming, which I’m happy with since that tends to speed things along and hopefully lessens the mounting. Currently daydreaming about getting a full night’s rest, but trying to not get my hopes up.

[DanaNM]

That’s great! Things sound like they are going really well!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

At around 14 hours I actually took a pause because I was sleep deprived and getting anxious that they would fight while I was sleeping and I’d intervene too late. The chasing and scuffles were beginning. Starting up again soon. I’m thinking I may stick with bonding during the day time because I didn’t anticipate quite how much the sleep deprivation and anxiety would get to me. When I put the pair back in their room, the tiny male started chasing the female, so I ended up putting them in side by side pens for the night. Really would prefer to do 24/7, but I gotta take care of myself first.

[DanaNM]

Sounds like a good plan! It’s def OK to take breaks for sleeping! (it can be good for the buns too!)

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

Bunnies were able to do overnight with a lot of success! Throughout the day yesterday, everyone seemed to be ignoring each other, so I was worried fights would break out tonight when they actually started communicating. Interestingly, it seems like Sage has decided he’s the new top bun and Salem seems to be accepting it? For now at least. There’s been a lot of shuffling around and a couple of chases throughout the night that I didn’t need to intervene with. Sage will go up and mount, nip, lunge, or chase Salem or Bear and they just seem to submit to it. Kind of strange seeing a sassy 4 pound lionhead bossing around a massive 10 pound bunny. Really relieved I was able to sleep through most of the night- hopefully it stays that way!

[attemptedquad]

A little worried about Sage getting too crazy now. He’s been nipping A LOT. Lunging at the others when they’re just moving around and eating. He’s not latch on biting but it looks like he’s got some force. I’ve been checking the buns over for injuries and from what I’ve seen, he’s not leaving marks, but he’s starting to freak me out a bit. He can get this way with Bear, where he can get territorial in their home and chase her out of his favorite hides and things, or try to chase her away from veggies when they’re eating. Thinking of expanding the space a bit to relieve some tension, but wondering if its just a normal part of the bonding process. The others just try to scramble when he does it and don’t fight back.

[DanaNM]

I would expand the space! In marathons I’ve found it’s important for them to be able to move away from each other to help with this type of reactivity. It will help him realize they aren’t fighting back if they have a bit more room to move away from him.

Sometimes adding some obstacles helps too if you have enough room, such as a box turned on it’s side with both ends open to be sort of like a hide/tunnel but with no way for a bun to get cornered.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

I upgraded their space and it seems like its helped! I think I’ll expand a bit more in the morning if they have a peaceful night. I do think he’s being possessive over his bun-wife though. It seems like he doesn’t want her near the new guy- if she starts wandering over to interact with him, it seems to cause a lunge or a chase. I’m hoping as time goes on, he can relax a bit more, especially with Salem being so calm and non-reactive these last couple of days.

Also Sage groomed Salem for the first time since Day 1, so that’s a promising sign.

[DanaNM]

That’s great! If you notice they start to separate into a duo and a third wheel, you may want to reduce the space again, or change it up through the day (like smaller during the day, larger at night). There’s definitely not a one-size-fits-all approach. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

That’s a good idea! I have no idea if/how they’ll split. Sometimes they’ll all cuddle together (rarely), other times Sage+Salem, Sage+Bear, or Salem+Bear. A lot of the day, they just kind of lay out in different parts of the cage. Sage is still chasing and nipping today, but I think it’s an improvement from yesterday and definitely seems a lot less possessive of Bear today and isn’t as threatened by her hanging out with Salem. Weirdly seems like he’s the worst late morning to early afternoon. I did veggies and it went fine for the most part- Sage kind of lunged at Salem to let him know that he didn’t want to be eating veggies next to him, so Salem went to a different section of the pen and ate instead. Sage’s behavior is definitely annoying, but the other 2 are submitting to him and not challenging him, so I just hope it stays that way and everyone learns to trust each other a bit more. Sage does usually act this way with Bear, just less frequently and not as dramatically, but luckily they’ll have a huuuuge area once they’re all hopefully bonded, which I’m hoping helps with his territorialness. I’ll definitely make sure to have at least 3 litter boxes too. Weirdly, as much of a little brat as Sage is being, he’s the biggest groomer of the group right now. He grooms Bear constantly throughout the day and has groomed Salem a few times, but I haven’t seen Salem groom Sage, which may speed things along a bit.

At around 52 hours of them being together without being separated. About 66 hours of bonding since starting. I’m including a couple videos and a picture: https://imgur.com/a/xKSncXr

[DanaNM]

Awww they look great together! Sounds like progress is being made!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

Thanks! Day 5 now, Day 6 if the first session counts, and they started circling last night, which completely freaked me out because I hadn’t seen them do that yet. It probably lasted for at least 5-10 seconds before I yelled at them and they stopped. On a positive note, the chasing and nipping seems to have slowed down, but still pretty present for when I give pellets and veg. Hopefully they’re just working out the kinks in their relationship. I think Salem really wants to be the top bunny, but doesn’t want to actually fight Sage for it. I really wish he’d just give in and start grooming Sage! A bit of head wars happening too.

[DanaNM]

I’m always hopeful when a chase or circling can be stopped by me just yelling “HEY!”, rather than having to get in there and physically stop them.

Sending positive bunny vibes! it sounds like they are definitely in the stubborn phase, so hopefully they can push through! If things seem like they start to stagnate you can try switching up the space again (larger, smaller, new location, etc).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

Forgot to update for quite some time, but they are officially a trio and have moved to their permanent location and slowly upgraded to the full size now! It definitely seemed like once the space was fully expanded and they had a ton of toys, Sage seemed to be far less frustrated and really doesn’t chase and antagonize anymore. He’s actually sharing food even better than he was when he was in a pair AND LETTING ME PET HIM (!!!). I’ve had him for 3 years now and he was found as a feral bunny who has always seemingly hated human interaction, so this is huge! I wasn’t really expecting that at all. Salem seems to love having friends and it really seems like a perfect partnership between the three. Here’s some pictures and videos: https://imgur.com/a/Mw0b3U6

And more positivity, now that they are all together downstairs, Bodhi, my single male who so far has been really aggressive to the others I’ve tried him with is upgraded to the spare room upstairs with me, so I can spend a lot more time with him now and he can free roam the main level. I couldn’t be happier with everyone being in spaces that are about twice the size of what they were in previously and all having more socialization.

[DanaNM]

YAY! That’s so exciting!!!

Congrats to you and the happy trio!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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