Bonding a Trio

[BunnyTheBunny]

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes
If so, for how long (for each)? Bunny: 1 year 7 months; Lilly: prior to adoption (Oct. 2018); Mia: 5 months

If not, why not?
Are you aware of reproductive cancer risk in females? If not, please read about it here.

Housing
Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.).

Bunny and Lilly are bonded and living together. Mia is currently their neighbor. 😆 Buns are set-up in enclosures side by side.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? Yes
How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.?

Lilly is the submissive in her and Bunny’s relationship and seems to show curiosity towards Mia whenever she sees her. However, if Mia seems to get too close, she has lashed out by batting at her through the cage. Bunny has shown indifference to Mia and they even lounge by each other sometimes (separated by two gates) but Mia can sometimes be too “nosy” and tried to stick her nose through the gates. Bunny responds by trying to nip her and shortly after he starts to chase Lilly around their pen. On Mia’s part.. she’s similar to a happy go lucky puppy. Super eager and excited to meet them, shows lots of interest and curiosity.
Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Tried cage swapping and it seemed to stress both sides out.. tried litter box swapping and it seemed to increase marking and stray poops. Also swapped their stuffed animals which resulted in marking (Bunny and Lilly) and LOTS of chinning from Lilly. 😆
If so, for how long? Abandoned cage swaps and litter swaps after about a week (Lilly gets a weepy eye when stressed). Swapped stuffed animals for a few months until Mia started destroying any stuffed animal to come into her pen (literally ripped them apart and pulled out their stuffing lol) .
Have you started sessions yet? Yes
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? Pre-bonding began back in December 2019.
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? Haven’t had a bonding session in a while.. but when I did they would last from about a minute up to 10 minutes.
Have you tried any stressing techniques? Not sure if this counts.. but i’ve trapped Lilly or Bunny in a small enclosure and trapped Mia in the same size enclosure right next to each other divided by a single panel.

 

• Im not sure what to do anymore.. After showing a rescue contact a video of Bunny and Mia scuffling on their last bonding session she said she thinks I won’t be able to bond them and that it may be because Mia is considerably younger than them. Bunny is 6, Lilly is around 5/6, and Mia is a little over a year old. As I mentioned, Lilly is prone to getting weepy eye when she gets stressed out so I discontinued bonding with all 3 at a time and decided to focus on bonding Bunny and Mia since they seem to be the more challenging bond. I figured if I got them to bond, introducing Lilly into the equation would be easier on her stress wise.
• I have an open kitchen and I have all three buns stationed right between the kitchen and the living room; in the space where the dining area would be. The Bunny’s (Lillys name prior to adoption was actually also Bunny lol) have the side closest to the kitchen and Mia has the side closest to the living room. When they are out of their pens they have those respective sides to roam in, divided by the two gates that make up their enclosures.
• Mia’s litter box habits – which have been pretty good even before her spay and very good after – have gotten pretty bad recently..

 

Soooo with that being said.. I guess i’m just wondering if it’s worth even continuing trying to bond the trio. I knew going into this that I might’ve ended up with a pair and a single which I’m totally okay with but I feel bad because Mia seems like she really wants to befriend them and Lilly has surprisingly shown curiosity in her. (Lilly is the most anti-social out of the 3)

 

Should I move Mia’s enclosure further away from theirs and start over? When letting them roam should I allow them on each others side instead of keeping the space divided? How do I combat poop wars and marking?! Should I just discontinue bonding altogether given the circumstances?

 

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

[DanaNM]

Thanks for filling out the template!

So disclaimer is that I haven’t bonded a trio. I’m currently struggling with similar questions (I have a pair and a single foster also!). But I do know it is very common for the current pair to split during the process, so you end up with three singles during bonding, but then end up with a trio at the end.

My sense is that by not doing full side swaps etc, it might make it harder to get the trio, but I appreciate the fact that you don’t want the poop wars or to deal with three singles. It may be possible to bond them all without doing the full side swaps etc, but might be much harder. I don’t really have advice on the poop wars, they tend to come with the territory of bonding (pun intended!) but go away once they are bonded or at least they get used to their neighbors.

I’m wondering where your bonding area is? In tougher bonds it is especially important to have a very neutral space (not even within smell of their normal areas). I’m also unclear as to how many actual sessions you’ve had.

Stressing can also be a very useful tool (such a car ride together), but I also understand it may not work if one bun is very easily stressed. But you could try working with the two that are the most difficult in that way.

I have also more recently really come to appreciate the roll of petting in keeping the buns calm and building trust between them.

Can you describe a typical bonding session in a bit more detail?

Whether it’s worth it to continue is your call. I think with enough patience that most bonds are possible, but sometimes it’s not worth the stress on you or the bunnies.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunnyTheBunny]

Hi Dana! Thanks for your response. Ive tried three different types of sessions:

• One with all three buns in a hallway where no bun has been before; resulted in a scuffle between Mia and Bunny while Lilly jumped into my lap terrified.
• Bunny and Lilly each had a mini session trapped in a tiny enclosure next to Mia (who was also trapped in the same size enclosure); everybun was fed treats. These two sessions lasted around maybe two minutes?
• Two sessions with Bunny and Mia on the balcony in an enclosure. These sessions seemed to be the most effective due to both buns being distracted by the noise and breeze in their fur. 😉  Both of these sessions resulted in a scuffle but after separation both bunnies were pet and fed treats. The first session lasted around 5 mins. and the second closer to 10. The second session they kind of took to opposite sides of the pen and ignored each other for the first few minutes (with Bunny giving me his infamous pissed off side eye all the while of course). After a few minutes Mia cautiously decided to approach him and he ran to another side of the enclosure and turned his back toward her. As she was moving into the spot he vacated, he lunges to nip her and a scuffle ensues. After breaking it up I pet both bunnies to calm them down and try to feed treats; Mia happily eats hers but Bunny refuses! (He’s the hungriest bunny of the 3) He lays down as I continue to pet him and I decide to put Mia right next to him and pet them both. Mia kind of tucks her face into his side and Bunny’s eyes grow wide and he starts breathing fast. I try to feed his treat again – no luck. He’s freaked out so I separate and end the session shortly after.

And thats the session I showed my rescue contact that put a halt on future bonding sessions. It’s just an odd situation. Mia actually mimics Bunny’s behavior sometimes and I’ve caught them lounging near each other numerous times. But as soon as the gates are gone.. forget about it. Im just not sure if they’re fighting because he feels like he needs to let her know that he’s the dominant one or if he’s scared of her.

[DanaNM]

So I would focus on the space that worked the best, the balcony. It was likely the most neutral and also slightly stressful.

You also should focus on preventing scuffling, rather than just breaking things up. It is very important to end on a positive note, rather than to wait until things turn bad.

Here’s what I would do (either working with all three or the pair you think needs the most work): Do sessions on the balcony, set short time goals (2 min, 5 min, etc). Put both buns in. If they ignore each other, great. If they approach each other, start petting them and swapping scents. This makes them think they are being groomed. Keep this up for as long as they are near each other. If one goes to move away, let them. End the date at the set time goal, unless things are tense. If things are tense, pet them until they are calm.

Keep this up until you notice they are not so tense near each other. You can gradually increase the time limits if this goes well, but always end on a good note. Food can be helpful, but treats can also make them kinda crazy which can be confusing sometimes for them. I usually wait to add food until things are bit more calm. Once they get to the point where they are calm near each other, slowly ease off on the petting. Pause for a few seconds, then continue, etc.

Your goal is to build trust between them. Fighting results from fear of the other rabbit, so the more trust you can build the more they learn to trust the other bunny.

I would say if there is no progress at all with this method after a couple weeks then you might reassess whether to keep trying, or change the method (maybe use some stressing).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunnyTheBunny]

Ahhhh I see. I read somewhere that interference should be kept at a minimum so I was going along with that but it obviously is not working out for anyone. Will do! I didn’t really have to do much when it came to Lilly and Bunny (they were a love at first sight kind of situation) so this is all pretty new to me. Thank you!!

[DanaNM]

There are many many different strategies, so what you read does work for some bunnies! Sometimes buns are good with minimal interference, but for less experienced bonders it can be hard to know when to step in. I learned this petting technique from the lead at the rescue in my town (who has several decades of experience…), and used it with bonding my most recent 2 pairs, and it worked so well! It just made everything much more calm and less stressful for everyone.

You definitely will eventually need to back off, but in cases where the buns just start scuffling it is OK to have your hands on them a lot in the early phases.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pinkiemarie]

I am bonding a trio as well and it has been a long process but I think they told you to give up a little too soon. My trio has a more difficult pair as well and recently they’ve been giving kisses on the head. Listen very carefully to the advice you get here because this is what got us moving forward in a positive direction!

If you can do the two difficult buns on car rides and leave the stress bun at home then put all 3 together for a date immediately after the ride that should help. It worked well for us, and I also have 2 difficult ones and the 3rd freaks out easily.

I also suggest using a VERY small pen. I tried to post a picture from out date today but I couldn’t get it uploaded for some reason so I’ll post a link to imgur. The pen is actually larger today because they’re done so well. I had it as small as humanly possible before and it seemed to be better for this group than a larger space.

One last thing… It’s very hard to tough out a date that isn’t going well but 1 to 10 minutes is too short. 10 should be your minimum unless they’re being very, very bad. If you try the car ride though I think you’ll find is easier to keep them together for longer periods. We’ve been sitting here for 2 hours. They still can’t be left alone in here but we’re getting there! It actually takes an hour and a half to 2 hours before they get tired of being vigilant and finally start to kind of relax.

Also I know your one bun is easily stressed but if you can’t change enclosures could you at least trade litter boxes back and forth? Getting acclimated to the poop and pee smell of the other rabbit is really important!

Just a little backstory to give you hope, my black bun was very antagonistic towards the white one for a long time and broke into her enclosure one day… She’s 4 times bigger than him and almost killed him! So we’ve had major setbacks but they’re getting friendly and there’s definitely going to be a bond between them soon. Some rabbits really are not bondable but I just don’t think you’ve done enough to give up unless this really isn’t something you can do.

 

[pinkiemarie]

Here is the photo of our new, larger date space :). https://imgur.com/a/KnSCyvb

[DanaNM]

Haha! That’s the “larger” space? LOL I don’t want to see the smaller one!

Looks to be going well though!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pinkiemarie]

Very small…I had the same pen closed up a bit smaller than that. It was the only way to keep them from starting a tussle (because theyfthey could barely move lol). I’m just going too increase little by little 🙂

[BunnyTheBunny]

Thanks for sharing pinkie! Your story gives me hope. I have done a couple more sessions since I last posted and kept them short. (2-4 mins.) Mia actually put her face into Bunnys butt fluff during the last session and this caused him to try to nip her. It seems whenever she gets too close to him, he lashes out. I responded by petting aggressively and it worked. How long have you been bonding your trio for pinkie?

[BunnyTheBunny]

Dana how is your bonding process going?

[DanaNM]

@BunnyTheBunny I haven’t started yet :p

But so far my pair are doing ok and Bonnie (the single) is settling in and getting more confident. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pinkiemarie]

I don’t want to discourage you lol we’ve been at it over a year, but I have a mini breed rabbit and 2 average sized buns. The mini bun broke into the big bun’s play area and she almost killed him…it was his fault, he was harassing her and she’s 4 times bigger than him. But I backed way off for a long long time because I was so freaked out about him getting hurt again. Since I started with car rides and really actually made true efforts at this we’ve had amazing process when everyone giving kisses, and it looks like they’re getting closer to settling who is dominant. The little one has also stopped trying to harass her through their xpens. So don’t look at my timeframe please, we had special issues! But… we’re also working through those issues so you can do it!

[Author]

Messages