Bonding a pair and new male – FAILED

[Karla]

This is my first bonding that hasn’t gone smooth from the start, and it is kind of exciting. Haha, although, ask me again after a month when things are still not going great!

The bunnies are: Molly and Karl, both neutered, and Freddie, who was neutered 4 weeks ago. His hormones have settled down a lot, but I refer to him as partly intact in this bonding journal, as his scent and behavior is the one that has caused the problems between him and Karl.

All the bonding sessions between them have been unauthorized and due to my lack of securing their areas.Once I noticed that Freddy and Molly was sorting things out on their own, I have not interfered, but skipped bonding sessions and let them work it out themselves.

Molly and Freddy: The first few times, Molly seemed scared of Freddy who was chasing and humping her incessantly. However, I noticed that if he stopped, she would come back to him and shove her butt right up in his face, so he would begin again. She would even go over to him and lift her butt and tail and invite him to hump her – so much for being a spayed lady, apparently! This means that for the past 4 weeks, Molly has had urine stains all over her fur. Nice one, Molly. Now that his hormones have settled and he isn’t so interested in humping her, I have even noticed him groom her (although it seems to be a trick, because once she lays down, he will try to hump her)

Karl and Freddy: The tricky part and what this thread will be about. Freddy was not aggressive towards Karl in the beginning and Karl was okay as well. But Freddy’s hormonal behavior (need to sniff private parts) annoyed Karl, and these two were fighting a few times, when I had not secured their areas alright. It got worse and worse, and they would even try to bite each other through the bars.

Sunday morning Freddy managed to escape my new setup and we woke up by the noise of these two fighting again. Freddy had to see a vet, and both have permanent scars now as a memory. Although they have been sharing the bunny room for the past two weeks, this fight is the one that has started the Poop War (only Freddy, Karl does not bother fighting like a wuss with poop)!

I have not wanted to begin bonding sessions, before I was sure, Freddy’s hormones were down to a normal level. He isn’t that interested in humping Molly anymore, and it’s been a while, I think, since he last sprayed her, so now it is time for some stress bonding. The first few unauthorised meetings, both Karl and Freddy seemed friendly (though hormonal – Freddy – and annoyed – Karl) at first, so I am sure they will be friends eventually.

[Karla]

So, today I did my first stress bonding session ever. I put both Karl and Freddy in a slippery container and carried them into the kitchen making sure it was a bumpy ride. In the kitchen, I put them in the sink. Both were really scared and were snuggling. Freddy was not moving at all, but Karl was resting his head on his back. After 3-4 minutes, he even groomed him a bit on the back.

I let them sit in the sink for 7 minutes or so, and then I carried them back – swinging the container a bit – to the bunny room, where Freddy spends the daytime being caged, and Karl during nighttime.

I think I will do another session tonight! It went so well.

[Karla]

Ooh, hope I don’t jinx it by writing this – but I just caught Karl grooming Freddy through the bars. And after our very short little stress bonding session today, he has actually slept next to the cage (and Freddy) all day.

[Karla]

Bonding session #2.

Nothing epic happened. I don’t know. I guess I was expecting SOMETHING. Anyhow, the sessions have not lasted more than 5 minutes so far, as I want them to leave on a good note, so it doesn’t give them much time. And so, nothing happened. Freddy was still completely paralysed in the sink and did not move or blink…Karl was moving around a bit more. And that was it. I turned Karl around, so they were laying face to face and then I petted both of them for the 5 minutes. Couldn’t help plucking Karl a bit as well.

[Deleted User]

I don’t see why Freddie should be considered partly intact. He has been neutered. Many of his behaviors you are describing are because of the excitement over meeting your rabbits, not necessarily as a sign of hormones being up.

[Karla]

The reason I call him partial intact is because I am dealing with the effects of him and Karl meeting while his hormones were still very high, which was not great. And because I am not sure yet, if his hormones are completely down to a desired level. He isn’t making his humping noises anymore, you know running around like crazy while grunting, and he doesn’t spray Molly anymore, so in a few days time I think he is good to go and well-behaved, Also, I have never seen a bunny that sniffs private parts like a dog. Which was what annoyed Karl, and what has caused the tension between him and Karl.

[Deleted User]

I brought it up because it appears in your subject line and may inadvertently give people a wrong idea; “intact” and “bonding” in the same sentence just makes me cringe.

[Karla]

I get it! I will change it straight away. Don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea.

[Deleted User]

Thanks so much, Karla! I know what you meant, but it is a forum and rabbit people browse in here… not necessarily reading the whole thread. I appreciate you changing that. Let’s hope this will jinx Freddie’s hormonal side to change also!

[Karla]

Stress bonding session #3 and 4:
Freddie is still so scared, that he doesn’t move. All he is concerned about is hiding under Karl, which looks sort of funny. Karl groomed him a teeny weeny bit (not even a second). But going great so far.

I let them be out in the bunny room today for 20 minutes together – with me ready to interfere if anyone came to close to each other. Karl stayed in his cardboard box. At least he didn’t pop out his head like an evil moray as he usually does when Freddie is out. He was busy grooming himself.

[mocha200]

wow you got a new bunny??? when! pics please!!!

[Elrohwen]

Mocha, she had a thread in the intro section a little while ago. Check it out – Freddie is a cutie! But I love the black and white lops 😉

Karla, sounds like you’re doing a great job. You might be as much of a bonding guru as Petzy! All of your bonds seem strangely easy, and I think it’s because of your laid back attitude towards them (unlike us worry-warts who only make things worse).

[mocha200]

(unlike us worry-warts who only make things worse).

haha… thats me!

[Elrohwen]

Heehee. Me too, Mocha! There seem to be a lot of us worry-warts around. 😉

[Karla]

#5 Doing great. Karl began grooming Freddy within seconds. Freddy is still incredibly scared and is completely paralysed. That kitchen sink got to be the worst place in the whole wide world to bunnies

As long as there is no actual biting, then I prefer letting the bunnies work it out themselves as I believe their social nature and the big space, they have here, is the key to a bond. I’ve done that every time, except this time though. I have let Karl and Freddy roam around the bunny room at the same time, but then I sit in the middle of the room ready to stop them, if eg. Karl’s body stiffens and he comes closer (when he stiffens, he is not being friendly, but getting ready for some mean action…).

Once we get to session #10, I will try to let them meet in the bunny room without interference (starting with the cage, which always is the place where my bunnies get along the best with new additions). I do 2 sessions a day, so the test is coming up soon. Oh, and the poop war is decreasing drastically! Hooorah – I don’t like poop wars!

[Karla]

Inputs are welcome!

#6
I let Karl out while Freddy was out just to see their behaviour. Freddy went straight for Karl. So, I picked them up and put them in the box into the kitchen. Karl groomed Freddy straight away.

I decided to do some bonding session in one of the cages to see how they would react if their space was limited but it was their comfort zone…FIGHT! I’m not sure who started, but they were pretty aggressive both of them. I have scratches and bite marks on my arms. I thought about throwing Molly in as well to cool down the guys, but I was afraid she might get injured, so I didn’t do it. I know I rushed things, but somehow the stress bonding isn’t moving things – Freddy is paralysed, and Karl grooms. That’s it. And clearly the past 5 sessions with grooms haven’t changed a thing in their behaviour.

Any ideas? Somehow I need Freddy to warm up, so I cannot do anything more stressful because then he doesn’t move at all. It would be easier if I could divide the cage in two, so they hardly hard any space to move and they would have to spend hours close to each other.

[Karla]

#7 I decided not to use the kitchen sink anymore. It doesn’t work for us. I tried the shower, but Freddy moved around too much making Karl upset – he made his warfare grunts and got ready to attack, but I managed to stop him. So I put them both into the container again and they were fine. Karl groomed and both were laying next to each other (not that they have any other options).

I’ve decided to stick with bonding sessions in the container. It doesn’t work fast enough for me, but it creates a relaxed atmosphere for both of them, and they behave while they are in the container, so that is how we will proceed for the next 20 (!) sessions. Gah, this type of bonding is boring, if you are impatient like I am!

I need Freddy to do some grooming. I will see if I can get some banana. I tried with orange juice this morning, but none of the boys liked it.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Karla on 06/19/2010 07:42 AM

Any ideas? Somehow I need Freddy to warm up, so I cannot do anything more stressful because then he doesn’t move at all. It would be easier if I could divide the cage in two, so they hardly hard any space to move and they would have to spend hours close to each other.

If Freddie is starting to freeze up on you during the sessions I recommend snuggle sessions with you and Karl free-moving around you guys. I did this with Neigey and Deirdra because Neigey was very scared.

I can’t recommend dividers in bonding sessions. I find they charge up the buns’ territorialism.

This was how I set up the sessions with Neigey and Deirdra Deirdra would come up on my lap on her own and investigate which sometimes made Neigey climb all the way into my sleeve.

[Karla]

I’ll give it a go tomorrow morning! I guess I can use the shower again?

I’m glad you are not suggesting that Karl is the one who should snuggle, cause all this is stressing him out so much that he is beginning to attack me whenever I get close to him. He knows I am there to either pick him up and do bonding sessions or put him in the cage, so Freddy can get run time.

[Deleted User]

he may try to attack you even more when you are holding Freddie. Maybe this isn’t the best course of action then. I was not aware that Karl was showing aggression towards you. I would go with dryer rides then, box up Karl and Freddy on top of your running dryer stroking them continuously.

[Deleted User]

can you post a video of a session? I would like to hear the warfare grunts. Seriously, I’d like to see the dynamics. The tougher bonds are more helpful to see actually than the easy ones

[Karla]

LOL, you don’t want to hear warfare grunts Also, I think I prefer not to hear them…but perhaps I can get my boyfriend to film some of our sessions. Though don’t expect to see anything exciting because I keep my hands on them all the time. I don’t let them be on their own in the container, because whenever one of them moves around, the other one gets a bit nervous, and then the action begins.

I continued this morning with the container sessions.

Freddy pulled some fur off Karl’s butt. He did that yesterday as well. But I just moved the container, which made him seek comfort in Karl instead, who groomed him straight away. Karl did a lot of grooming and both were grinding their teeth, when I stroked them. That’s good. They had a bit of willow as well, though none wanted to eat at the same time as the other.

I think I need to do a lot of these sessions, so they begin relaxing in each other’s company. The fights that have been going on previously have ruined a lot between them.

And then I will do some bonding sessions between me and Karl today.

[Deleted User]

Why don’t you work on Molly and Freedy instead so to give Karl and Freddy time away from each other to evaporate their grudge from previous fights?

[Karla]

Molly and Freddy are doing fine. They snuggle already – I didn’t need to do any bonding sessions with them, as Molly loved the attention from the ever-humping Freddy and he loved the scent of female, so that worked out well.

I have thought about letting Karl have a few days off the bonding to relax. Whenever he sees me, he runs into the cage to hide (unfortunately, for him the whole side of the cage is open), and I hate to pick him up from the cage, as to me that is their private area. So I am sad that it has come to this.

But yeah, I could do some banana trick sessions to get Molly and Freddy to groom each other, because none of them do this (as far as I know – they always snuggle in the Maze Haven, so I can’t really see them).

Anyhow #9 : Freddy is moving around more in the container and they seem to relax more now. Karl groomed Freddy. It’s going in the right direction.

[jerseygirl]

It doesn’t work fast enough for me, but it creates a relaxed atmosphere for both of them, and they behave while they are in the container, so that is how we will proceed for the next 20 (!) sessions. Gah, this type of bonding is boring, if you are impatient like I am!

Lol, well you’ve had it good so far. Time to experience a “traditional” bonding.
 

Anyhow #9 : Freddy is moving around more in the container and they seem to relax more now. Karl groomed Freddy. It’s going in the right direction.

It’s does sound like it’s progressing normally, just not your kind of normal. The bunnies are just preparing you for a more intense style for when you come to dog/bunny bonding.

 

[Karla]

LOL, you’re right. I’m way too impatient for this kind of bonding. Anyhow, I thought we were moving on to a more relaxed atmosphere, but I think I saw Freddy lashing out on Karl through the bars this morning. Right after our nice little grooming session. Little bugger!

I think I want to try the shower again. Because last time it was Karl who reacted to Freddy moving about, but Karl seems more relaxed about Freddy now. Freddy seems aggressive, when he think it is his territory, so I might be able to see them interact properly in the shower.

Hehe, let’s not talk about dog/bunny bonding right now. That will just stress me out

[Karla]

Okay, so pictures of bonding session #11

I changed the routine and put a towel in the container, so they could move around a bit and do some interaction. Well, Karl began digging the towel – Freddy reacted to his movements. He made a grumpy noise and went straight for Karl, so I decided to go back to the bunny room with them and get the camera, so you could see.

But first…

 Freddy wishing he had bonded with Karl, so that he didn’t have to be caged…

I just had to show this picture, because Freddy looks so cute and sad at the same time.

 EDIT: for anyone reading this thread and not knowing it; the bunnies don’t live in cages at all. The cages are their toilets. However, now that we have a dog as well, I cannot keep Freddy in the bedroom until they are bonded. So he and Karl unfortunately have sleeping shifts in the cage. It’s their own fault…they could just bond a bit quicker  Some days I just keep Molly and Karl in the living room, and Freddy gets the bunny room.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bonding session #11

Part 1: Ignoring

There is a lot of ignoring if I don’t put them face to face.

They start out like this and as you can tell from the video below, nothing happens at all apart from some tense moves!

 And don’t worry! Karl is only moulting

 

 

 

 

 

 

Video of nothing happening
(you don’t have to see it to the end…really, nothing happens)

 Part 2: I interfere and grooming begins

 

Next…I moved them around so they were side by side. Karl starts grooming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Video of grooming

A video of Karl initiating the groom – look how tense he looks in the beginning. Don’t mind the noise I make in the middle when Karl grooms Freddy’s eyelid, so it is exposed

Part 3: The not so friendly way of demanding grooms!

Now this is the interesting video clip. Look how quickly Freddy goes at Karl. I think this very quick movement is often the one that sets off the fights, although Freddy seems to only be demanding a groom. I think perhaps Freddy gets nervous because Karl moves around, and I’m not sure if it is the beginning of an attack and then he realises Karl is not attacking him and he changes it into a groom demand – or if he just is very aggressive when it comes to demanding grooms. Had Karl had any room to move, I’m sure he would have run off, and the fight would have begun.

 But that is exactly what happened earlier at the session as I mentioned. At that time though, there was a grumpy noise coming from Freddy as well.

 Look how tense Karl looks after this incident when Freddy is demanding the groom!

He is clearly not grooming because he enjoys it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that’s it. The session went on for about 15 minutes. I decided to finish it off here so they left each other on a good note – or as good as could be.

—————————————————————————————————————————

War brothers

Just have to show you: This is what happens when two bunnies don’t get on that well

Freddy has a bite mark on the back as well, and Karl has one on the ear.

At least no new scars have appeared since the fight this Sunday…AND I should add, that Karl at least cleans Freddy’s scar near the eye. Although he does it with such eagerness that Freddy would prefer if he didn’t clean it.  

Freddy even came with a big scar right on his nose, so he looks like a real veteran. I have a feeling that the scar might tell the story why he ended up at the shelter.

[Deleted User]

Karl’s eyes want to pop out of his head… Did Freddy rip out the hair from Karl’s back too?

I didn’t realize Karl was a mops, too. So I will post here how mean my Mops was during bonding…

how much does Karl weigh? His ears seem to stand off to the sides more than Mops’ do. But they are similar enough.

I think the grooming attempts are still a good sign even though they lead to tension. They just need more time/sessions like you said.

[Karla]

LOL, maybe it’s a breed thing Your video looked so promising in the beginning haha.

Karl weighs about 1.7 kg = 3 lbs

So what do you reckon of Freddy’s quick move for a groom? Doesn’t look too friendly, does it?

I can’t really figure out if it is me or Freddy who has pulled out Karl’s fur. He is moulting, so it could be me, but most likely Freddy has chipped in as well

[jerseygirl]

Despite there having been a fight previously, they appear to be doing really well in close proximity . Like there is no personal grudge, that the previous attack was just both their instincts kicking in. In that 3rd video Karl is standing over Freddy and bumps his hind end when he gets down and Freddy hardly moves. He’s not frozen, just seems not bothered by Karl. It was only when Karl started digging that Freddy moved quickly. Either digging means something, or he just reacted to surface under him moving.

Honestly though, more of these sessions will help. The level of trust should build and both be less flighty by the others actions. When you get them both loafing and chilling close by one another, I think you could then start to test them out in different spaces.

In that book “Why does my rabbit?….” it mentions that in a warren, bucks deterimining their status can use digging motions as a show of prowess. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening between your 2 boys though. I mention it as I just find it funny. Digging to show off your bun-li-ness. lol

[Karla]

But you raise a good point…why would Karl suddenly begin digging, and why does it upset Freddy so much? The fact that it may mean something is a good point. Interesting!

I should read that book again. As you may remember, my impression was that she did not consider neuter as an option, so I read the whole book with a distance and annoyance. But perhaps I should give her a chance and learn something

Anyhow, yes, tons and tons of these sessions, so they can begin to relax and not be so tense. I think Karl went for Freddy today, but they stopped quickly when I raised my voice. One of them tried to get a bite in (like two naughty boys who have been told to stop by their mum, but one of them just wants the final say). But then Karl groomed Freddy, and I finished the session.

[jerseygirl]

why would Karl suddenly begin digging, and why does it upset Freddy so much?

I don’t think it reaaallly matters. It could be as simple as Karl”s keeping himself entertained and Freddy is still a little skittish. I didn’t think his movement was too abrupt. Judging from displays from my own 2, they will take whatever opportunity to request grooms. Anyway, it’s looking good. You’ll have a trio before too long.

[Karla]

Ah, you said that just a few minutes too early.

I guess I might be back to square one now. Darn it! I thought that both Karl and Molly were in the living room as usual, so I decided to let Freddy out of the cage. I closed the door and went into the kitchen, when I heard loud noises coming from the bunny room. I ran back in to find Karl and Freddy in a fight. Loads and loads of hair pulling!! No injuries though.

My boyfriend would surely tell me to leave them to sort it out themselves, and maybe I should. I just stopped them out of instinct, and I am not sure that I trust that they won’t do more than fur pulling.

Note to self: always check the maze haven!

[jerseygirl]

Hope not too bad.

I’m never sure what’s best in situation. Put them together in container and do some stress bonding, ending on good note. Or totally separate them for a few days. If fight not too bad, I’m leaning toward 1st suggestion. And suspecting your not going to want to pause bonding for few days….(lol) also makes me lean towards 1st suggestion.

[Karla]

Right, good idea with a new bonding session ASAP (and yep, you’re right…breaks are for patient people LOL ). Anyhow, I took Freddy with me into the bedroom, so he and I are cuddling in my bed right now while doggy is asleep right next to us (he was neutered today), so I’m doing Freddy-me-doggy bonding sessions now

I had Molly up in the bed earlier as well to meet doggy for the first time. It’s excelent to sedate the dog and do bonding sessions Well, that’s a whole other thread! Back to topic, I had not even considered doing a new bonding session now, but I will.

[Karla]

Alright, acute bonding session #13:

In short: fight! I put them in the container, and hell broke loose. They fought. I tried to put a hand in between, but it didn’t help. I moved the container a bit, but it didn’t help. So finally, I dropped the container on the floor - and guess what, they still fought! Grrr

Anyhow, I put them back in the container and removed the towel and this time, I gave them a real swing, so even I felt wuzzy afterwards. That helped. They were still biting each other, but not like fighting, more like “You jerk, you are in my way. Move!”. But eventually, they stopped and Karl even groomed. Karl has a distinctive way of grooming bunnies he has not bonded with yet (did the same with Molly and Jack): he is very aggressive in his way of grooming by bite-grooming the recipient. So, they ended on a better note than they started.

 An interesting thing was that Karl was grinding his teeth like crazy. I think he was trying to calm himself down. He does that sometimes during the bonding sessions, but this time it was quite a lot.

While all this was going on, Molly was busy eating the fur from the fight. Umm

 

The fur I collected from the floor – this does not even include the fur that was all over my clothes and on the carpet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then there is all the loose fur on Karl now. I think we know now why he has a big bald spot on his back. Well, at least he is moulting, so it will grow out quickly.  

[jerseygirl]

Ouch. Maybe I shouldn’t have suggested that session…..Sorry Karl! Sorry Freddy! *noserubs from me* I hope Karl is not hiding an injury.

Ok, so some time out might be wise. You can always do more bonding with Molly and Freddy or Doggy + buns in the meantime.

[Karla]

No, I actually think it was a good idea, so it was good you suggested it. Because they did finish off with being alright, and that is important. Otherwise, they would have hold a grudge until tonight when next session is on. And no, Karl is fine. He has been checked. I’m confident he is only doing it to calm himself or perhaps show a sign of friendliness and relaxation. It’s a bunny thing, I may not understand what is going on, but I’m sure Freddy gets the message!

And the fur on the floor was from the fight that I was responsible for – not from the bonding session. So no worries!

Just to show you that afterwards, they were okay, here is a very small video clip:

[Deleted User]

Oh, wow, Karl is a little bunny then.– Mops weighs 7 lbs. The little ones can be a handful, though… fast and feisty.

You are seeing too many negative encounters between them at this point. It is setting you up for a harder bond each time. I also think that Freddy is stressing big time from Karl’s bullying. Freddy appears very uncomfortable in the last video.

Teeth grinding can be an expression of dominance in bonding sessions in my experience.

I would lay off the stress sessions for Freddy’s sake and well-being. I would pair him with Molly to have a positive experience and use Molly as a mediator bunny between them. She would get to be with Karl and Freddy in turns. This can work very well as long as the boys accept Molly carrying each other’s scent.

Also, during this time of bonding your trio, I would not involve any meetings with your new dog at all. Rabbits can only tolerate so much stress before showing ill effects.

These are just suggestions, of course.

edit to add: I highly recommend using only neutral space from here on in. Think back on how easy your bond was after your move… it was because of the new surroundings.

[Karla]

But I do consider the container a neutral space. Wouldn’t you? Now you’re confusing me I have moved the container into the bunny room and put it on top of a chair, but that’s it. It hasn’t changed anything in their behaviour that we are now doing the sessions in that room.

Molly is with Freddy and Karl in turns – in the way, that she is free roaming at all times and snuggles with both, while the other one has cage time. Is that what you mean? Or do you suggest I put her in the container as well? Because I have thought about doing that now and then.

I can’t believe you call Karl the bully I find he is the poor victim, but maybe I’m not seeing clear, because he is my little baby.

[Deleted User]

I’m glad you are using the neutral space then — I assumed what you posted in LPT’s thread applied to your current bond. You had posted there that you don’t deal much with neutral territory when doing bondings.

You know your bunnies best! In the video it appeared as if Freddy was scared of Karl and I thought I remembered that Freddy freezes up frequently which is a sign of stress. Karl appears more comfortable and at ease. It is possible that Freddy aggresses out of fear. I could be wrong.

[Sarita]

I don’t think you ever want to just let them work it out by fighting – that’s not working it out, it’s just fighting.

I think it’s best to always try to end each session on a positive note as well. Do you have a balcony or something that could be a neutral space as well rather than just a container?

[Karla]

Posted By Petzy on 06/23/2010 08:45 AM
I’m glad you are using the neutral space then — I assumed what you posted in LPT’s thread applied to your current bond. You had posted there that you don’t deal much with neutral territory when doing bondings.

You know your bunnies best! In the video it appeared as if Freddy was scared of Karl and I thought I remembered that Freddy freezes up frequently which is a sign of stress. Karl appears more comfortable and at ease. It is possible that Freddy aggresses out of fear. I could be wrong.

Okay, now I understand. Yes, with both Molly and Karl, and with Jack and Karl, I didn’t use a neutral territory. Molly and Jack was on partly neutral territory, because they  met and hang out at our old place (without any problems) for 1½ day, but when they met again at our new place, they had their tiffs for three days where I let them work it out. 

I think both Freddy and Karl are really stressed. Freddy freezes, but Karl grooms. I Karl’s grooming as an automatic way of responding to stress in this situation, but at least it is the right thing for them both when he does it.

I decided to do as you say and give them some time out. Mostly because I went into the bunny room and Karl hurried off and hid from me. So, instead I did some bonding sessions with Molly and Freddy as suggested. I just put them in the cage. It’s kind of difficult, because I don’t think Freddy is a groomer, and Molly most definitely isn’t, so I don’t think I will ever see them groom. But Molly is sleeping and Freddy is grooming himself next to her. They flopped against each other as well. I think that is the best we will see of them since no grooming is likely to happen.

[Karla]

Posted By Sarita on 06/23/2010 09:34 AM
I don’t think you ever want to just let them work it out by fighting – that’s not working it out, it’s just fighting.

I think it’s best to always try to end each session on a positive note as well. Do you have a balcony or something that could be a neutral space as well rather than just a container?

No, but I have thought about using the garden. Although they have all been outside, but not that much that I think anyone considers it their territory. However, I’m not sure that territory has anything to do with their tension. It is more the fact that when one of them has the space to move around, the other gets nervous and decides to attack.

I tried the shower, which is a neutral area. I could go back to that place again although I have to admit that I am a bit nervous about that because they will have some room to move…any ideas then if I decide to do that?

[Deleted User]

I think your rabbit bonding is burdened by a grudge right now from the previous fights. I would focus on Freddy and Molly and then start with car rides between Karl and Freddy at a later point. Avoid any more fights at all cost now because that’s what they associate each other with. You have to break this cycle. Rabbits are stubborn and remember well who they had a run-in with.

[Karla]

So, you are saying that they can forget about the fights and leave it behind them if I just give them enough time?

I have no car…but this is an idea that I have had whenever you guys talk about car rides: bicycle ride! I have a rucksack carrier for bunnies, which I use when they have to go to the vet. It is kind of small, it can fit in two bunnies if they snuggle. I could go for a ride, HOWEVER, I will not be able to see them in that case as they will be on my back…alternatively, I should just do as I do now and walk around with the container.

You know, Karl and Freddy have been fine at first. Heck, they did lots of grooming in the cage together in the beginning. But they had one stupid fight, when I was not looking, and since then it has been on and on (every time, because I have not taken my precautions!). So, I have no doubt that they can work it out, but aargh, they just need to leave those fights behind them.

[Sarita]

I agree with Petzy – also why do you not want to let them have room to move around?

[Karla]

When they move around, that’s when they fight. They can be fine in the container and Karl can groom. But once they have room and one of them makes a sudden move, the other one is sure he will be attacked and reacts accordingly. That’s why. So far, room has not been good.

I don’t mind putting them in the shower tomorrow evening and film it. Then we can look at the film and discuss next procedure because it might give an indication of what is going on? But I bet, Karl will make a wrong move, and Freddy will go straight at him and bite him, and then Karl will attack.

That is why my idea has been to put them in the container where there is not enough room to make them nervous and once they loosen up a bit and there has been no problems at all for a bunch of sessions, I wold move on to a bigger area (:shower)

[Karla]

I was reading Petzy’s old male quartet thread, so this is my plan. 1) Get Bugs as he seems to bring about instant bonds 2) Bring in Molly and do a tri-bonding session. I love Molly to death, but she is such an airhead at times, so the whole world could come crashing down and she would not notice. Thus, I think she would be good in the middle of the guys, since they both love her, and she would not care if they lash out after each other.

[BinkyBunny]

I am always interested in following bonding threads with multiples as it can be tricky, and I myself learn alot from these threads. One thing I wanted to mention regarding the video where Freddy attacks Karl after he digs —I had learned at the Enhanced Rabbit Seminar recently that “digging” can also be seen as an aggressive move. A dominant and/or pre fight move.

Karl may have not meant it in an aggressive way as bunnies will also dig when they are stressed (trying to escape), but it could have been perceived by Freddy as aggressive especially since they might be a bit on edge at this stage.

The grinding of the teeth can also indicate stress. Bailey used to grind her teeth at the vets office and I remember asking Dr. Harvey why she thought she did that, was she in pain some how, even though she was just sitting in the carrier, and Dr. Harvey mentioned that some bunnies do that when they have anxiety and/or are stressed.

I know I’m not offering bonding tips here, but just thought that maybe some of the insight into possible body language cues may help in some way.

Good luck with everything….my advice …..lots of wine for you…or me (watching all of this makes me nervous. LOL.

[Karla]

Thank you, BB! I think you are right about grinding teeth = stress. I just did a session where I swung the container a bit, and when I stopped, both were busy grinding their teeth. So that proves the point.

I will keep an eye on that digging thing, and I like what you say about it. It makes sense.

I actually just gave them a dose of Bach’s remedy right after our session, because I don’t want them to stress out too much from the bonding sessions.

Anyhow, I’ve decided to go on with my plan: lots of sessions in the container, so they get used to being near each other and relaxed and then when I feel they have reached that stage, we move on to a place with more room. I feel that my asking for suggestions and inputs actually just made me stressed and doubtful about my plan, so I think I won’t do as many updates now, until I see some real progress.

And if I can just mention my approach to bonding again: I know I’m not doing it by the book and never have, but that is what works for me. I find that because my bunnies are free-roaming they have so far been very welcoming of strangers, supposedly because their territory is big enough to house a newcomer. I think some of my posts in the various threads sometimes get misunderstood because English is not my first language, and perhaps I have another attitude towards the bonding, but don’t get me wrong, I try to learn as much as I can from you guys and I would never intentionally put my bunnies in a place where they could get hurt.

Anyhow, I’m not so worried about the bonding again now. I believe that Freddy and Karl will make up again since they have in fact been fine earlier on, and because their biting is more like marking and not actual bloody bites, if you understand. I know this, because I have my hands in between them most of the time, and their bites leave no bite marks on me, but only feels like marking.

[BinkyBunny]

When it comes to bonding — the “by the book” is more of just a starting point anyway in my opinion…after that really, it’s more about just following a few of the “pages” and then creating your own book! LOL. Some bunnies actually freak out by stress bonding, while other times that’s all that works at first. Even Jack and Vivian’s bonding was not really by the book because Vivian could go visit “his” territory, and with another pair, that could be a recipe for disaster. So, I think it’s always good for someone who is bonding to check out the “by the book” rules and try them out, but after that, it’s all about the dynamics of the pair or group and finding out what works.

Good Luck and keep us updated when you feel it’s best. Don’t get discouraged even if things take a negative turn at times. (It’s easier to say, of course, as I, myself, find bonding terribly stressful.

BONDING VIBES!

[Deleted User]

If there is a bonding book that tells you exactly how it’s done with success — I’d like a copy, please!
(sorry I stressed you out, Karla, I’d love to read your bonding journal)

[Karla]

We are back again.

Session #14- 19:
To make up for all the stress after their stupid fall-out, I cheated and used Bach’s Rescue Remedy the following three sessions. The reason was that session #14 was not nice to watch at all. Freddy was completely shaking, and it broke my heart. Bach’s worked really well.

The sessions have started of with some movements and attempts to bite, but nothing that couldn’t be stopped easily, and seemed more due to the fact that they were uncomfortable in the container. After I have stopped them, they have been lying quietly next to each other.

Session 18 and 19 were great. Both quiet and partly sleeping. Freddy was enjoying my petting and grinding his teeth. Karl has not been as eager to groom during these sessions. He did some very calm grooming for 2-3 seconds during these last two sessions, but the grooming at least seems more genuine than the previous demonstrative grooming.

[Karla]

I’ve been hiding out trying to forget that I have bonding sessions to do. Well, I took a break for about a week or more after having consulted with Petzy.

So we were back with the sessions yesterday:

#20: I put them outside on the roof (don’t even ask!!) with the cage top over hoping that a complete change of environment might do the trick. it didn’t. Don’t remember who started biting, but they both ended up going for my hand. Ouch.

#21: I decided to go back to the container. It went really well for a while, but then Freddy bit Karl, and they both ended up trying to bite each other. I then had them pushed together on my chest while standing up, so they could not jump down. Both were panting heavily, but at least not fighting. Karl was grinding his teeth a lot!

#22: I tried to continue with sessions on my chest, but Freddy decided to bite me, so I gave up. I sat down and had them on my lap. This worked really well. Until Freddy bit Karl, and I ended the session.

#23: I tried with the lap again and it seemed to work. I got bored and started brushing them both as they are moulting heavily, which might have been stupid as that meant that at one point, Karl bit Freddy who fell down on the floor. I ended the session.

I just went into the bunny room to do another session, but Karl saw me and ran into his box and thumped. I sat down to give him a treat, but he tried to attack me. Clearly not enjoying his bonding sessions.

Between session #22 and #23, Karl escaped the bunny room and went into the living room where Freddy has been today. He went over to Freddy and seemed friendly, but Freddy did not seem friendly AT ALL and was in that position where they are ready to attach. Thankfully, I managed to stop him.

It’s getting tiresome. Ha, I’m even thinking of bringing in the dog to stress them together. No, honestly, it is getting to me that both of them seem so stressed about the sessions. I really don’t like seeing them panting and grinding their teeth like that. I’ve been thinking of putting water in the container, although I’m not sure if that is a stress thing. I might just put them in a big pen in the garden and have a bit bucket of water ready in case somebody attacks. But it will require that I am willing to see how much they actually fight – if it is just marking or actual attack, if you understand what I mean.

 

[Karla]

I was reading MarkBun’s thread – I might just try this out:

Basically, whenever the aggressor bites the other one, you put the attacked on top of the aggressor. In my case, I think Karl is the one I should put on top, although I see in point in just letting Freddy have his way and be the dominant one.

[Karla]

#24 So, I decided to change tactics. So I’m still using the container, but we are back in the kitchen now and out of the bunny room. It went okay. I focused 100% on the bunnies, which I admittedly have not been very good at during the other sessions as my concentration span is obviously quite bad. But I petted them constantly, so there were no moving. Karl hasn’t groomed Freddie in ages.

#25 Stupid session. Started off with me trying to get out of the bunny room with them in the container, but they began fighting and I was shouting, so our dog came running and I had trouble getting out of the room. So, I went into the kitchen and did exactly as in the previous session; petting them so much that they could not move. The dog was standing next to me and barking, but I decided it might be a help after all. No one tried biting anyone. So after 10 minutes, I ended the session. I went through the living room with them, and then both the dog and I saw that I had not closed the door into the bunny room and Molly was out…so doggy chased Molly and I was shouting with Freddie and Karl still in the container. Argh. Anyhow, Molly was fine – she just wanted her dried papaya and then went back to remodelling the cardboard box. My sweet girl

Stupid session. But at least Karl is back to loving me again.

[Deleted User]

LOL. You might need some rescue remedy yourself!
It sounds OK, though, it will come together. Just keep at it with the sessions!!!

[Karla]

I really need your support, guys! I cannot see an end to this This must be session #28 now. Both were fighting. And Freddy was holding Karl’s foot in his mouth and just biting through, so Karl was screaming. It was so horrible to hear, and I am so, so sad about all this. Freddy fell down from my lap and I kept Karl, so I could comfort him. After a while, we put Freddy back on my lap right next to Karl, and my boyfriend enjoyed stressing them by making noises right up in their face (I guess, I’m really bad a stress bonding ’cause I really don’t like seeing them stressed). So, they stayed like that for a good 5 minutes or so and then we finished the session.

How can I advocate so strongly that all bunnies can be bonded and should be bonded, when I cannot get it to work myself? It is not a dominance thing, because none of them is interested in humping the other or demanding grooms – they just go for biting each other, so it must be a personality thing. Our apartment is not made for housing them separetely: we do not have an extra room and with a dog as well, it is hard work for me to have these 3 zones in my apartment. But at least the dog-bunny sessions are moving forward to cheer me up.

Tonight, we have decided to put them in a pen in the garden – with Molly as well. Both my boyfriend and I will be there to prevent them from fighting, and we will have water ready. It is my final attempt, otherwise I don’t know what to do. I’m so miserable today!!!!

[jerseygirl]

((hugs)) Don’t despair. You’re coming off a bad session so it’s natural to feel down about it all. It might be time to have a break again. Especially given this last fight and also your fraught nerves. It will do everyone good to have a break.

It may be you have to find the technique or stressor that works best on them. You have to get pretty creative.  It could be even the container is the best thing and you have to do x amount of session in that. It might send you cross eyed but it all builds their trust in one another. Then there will be a subtle shift.

[Deleted User]

Their behavior is because they have had so many fights. You must turn up the stress and do use the garden, not the apartment. They have to be taken out of the environment where they have been fighting.
Do you have anything on wheels, a wheel barrow, an old stroller, a trolly, anything? You could wheel them around in a box on one of those for a bunch of sessions. You need motion stress in my opinion to break the fighting cycle.

[Karla]

So here are quite  a few videos to enjoy – hey, if you are into it, you can even watch a bunny fight! 

So, first session in the garden. The first 20 minutes were more or less small tiffs. I don’t remember the number of times, I was bit. And yeah, we had another one of those moments with Karl sqeeuking and screaming, because Freddie was biting him  I went away to get dinner and had Karl caged within the pen. Next session I was back with the camera, and here is how it went. This is the longest session, I’ve ever done. I think, it’s been 1½ hour or so.

1. Freddie digs and watches Karl

Look how tense Karl is. He was like that throughout the whole session…

2. Close to each other, but no fight!

Yeeeah, no fighting. Karl just moves away quickly. This is the one of the best moments during the session, so please enjoy!

3. Karl snaps at Molly

So, Karl is stressed and Molly is right there, so he takes it out on her. He is so stressed, he tries to get behind the cage.

4. Karl is getting a bit aggressive in his behaviour

Karl runs after Freddie who is inside the box; Freddie comes right after him and it does not look friendly! I think it is Karl, who bites me as I put my hand between them. And Freddie just digs and digs right in Karl’s spot. It most be a dominance thing as JerseyGirl mentioned earlier in this thread. The way that Karl comes back right at the end of the video supports this.

5. Best session moment

Karl is grooming Molly when Freddie decides to join the party. He shows no aggression or interest in Karl. When Karl moves quickly towards him and withpulls, I’m not interfering although it looks like it. I think it is more of a “fake attack” on his part. And in the end, everybody seems friendly.

Look at poor Molly just trying to get a groom

 

6. Bunny fight!

And well, pardon my language if anyone understands what I’m shouting. Karl bit me trying to get to Freddie.

I finished it off with them both in the container and petting them for a minute or so.

 I have lots of other videos and also another one of me getting caught in a tiff. But this is just so you can see what the session was like.

In general, I was quite positive about it. At least, it wasn’t one big fight as I had feared it might have been. There was fighting, but now at least they had the room to escape each other. I will do another session tomorrow morning! And yes, Petzy, I have a bicycle trailer. We actually talked about using that one today, but I didn’t want to because I cannot control them then. Once they fight, they don’t seem to stop and I won’t have easy access to them, but I’m willing to give it a go, if you think it might be a good idea?

[Deleted User]

I can’t watch the videos right now but will later.
about the trailer — yes, do it! This is how I would use it: put the two boy bunnies in on a towel or on a bed of hay, then have your boyfriend just push it back and forth so he won’t actually be walking just pushing the thing back a foot, and forward again. This will allow you to stand over top of them and I suggest you do this in your garden wearing gloves. Do you have a garden hose? I would add a sensation of ‘rain’ to this motion stress, very lightly of course so not to soak them!! if this works to make them sit still, repeat these sessions over and over until the associate each other with rocky ride and rain rather than with fight. It can work!! Good luck!!!

[Deleted User]

Ok. I see it, Karla, they are making it hard for you. Bad rabbits! I feel for you… I was there… so frustrating!!!!!!
Seriously, you must stress the grudge out of them. I still believe the motion with water mist will surprise them enough. They WANT to fight, like two school yard boys who don’t even remember why they didn’t like each other in the first place….
I also recommend hands-on sessions of these in a box on your lap WEARING GLOVES. Just petting them down hard and pushing their bitey little heads down.
They will bond… it will be extra special once they are! And you will have good tips for your website after dealing with them
Don’t give up!!!!!

[jerseygirl]

Regarding the digging….I’m not so sure from that video. It just looked like Freddie found something interesting to eat. He appeared happy to be investigating things out doors. Karl appears uncomfortable in general. Is Karl a bit out of sorts at the moment because of shedding?
How is he outside of bonding sessions. I know Molly was a good guide for when something was up with Jack. Does she do the same toward Karl?

He’s your 1st rabbit of your 3 now. Do you feel pretty protective of him?

[Karla]

I will try the hands-on-session in a minute and then later today I could get my boyfriend to help with the trailer. However, it is a rare exception that he can help me out, so I cannot rely on having someone to help me. It is stressing me out. I keep thinking of bonding sessions, and it makes me so sad all this.

JG: Yes, Karl is shedding A LOT. It’s hard to tell if he is acting differently because of it, because he has changed so much during these bonding sessions. He doesn’t like quick movements now and makes false attacks if I or Molly do something near him, and he runs and hides as soon as he sees me when he knows it is time for sessions. So, I actually don’t see much of him. Molly is not acting differently towards him. Heck, she doesn’t even seem to be concerned when he attacks her.

But Karl is very easily stressed. New places and new things clearly stresses him and always have. That is why I may be a bit overprotective, because I know how much this affects him and I can see it on his behaviour. Freddie, however, seems much more fine outside the sessions, but while they are on, I have never seen a rabbit shake so much when they are close to each other.

I hate I have to put them through this.

Getting ready for a new session – taking deep breaths.

[Karla]

By the way, are you suggesting I don’t do any more sessions in the outdoor pen now?

[Karla]

I was just thinking. The relationship seem to be getting worse and worse and more and more tense. Remember when there was actually grooming?

I just did the bonding session on my lap and it went fine. Karl even grinded his teeth at one point (out of content), and Freddie made a big sigh and seemed to relax. And none of them were shaking like they sometimes do. After 10 minutes, Freddie was trying to force his head over to Karl, and it did not seem friendly. Also, he tried to make a weak attempt to bite me, so I finished it off while they were still relaxed and nothing was going on as such.

Wouldn’t it be better to do 10 of these sessions a day of 10 minutes for the next week? Just to make them associate each other with pets and quiet time on my lap and break the cycle of biting? Instead of doing the stress sessions that will just make them associate each other with something bad?

[jerseygirl]

Posted By Karla on 07/17/2010 12:22 AM
By the way, are you suggesting I don’t do any more sessions in the outdoor pen now?

Not at all!  I think the pen is a good space for you to work in.   No, I was just commenting on how the bun buns seemed.  Karl is just being a stress head then. That’s ok. It’s temporary and will get better.  I’m kinda more worried about your stress levels!  It’s good to read you’ve just had a fairly calm session. When things go awry I think it’s good to go back to a thing that is working (like the pets side by side).

With the outdoor pen, you could hang sheets or something on some sides to make it feel more confined.   See if it makes any difference.

 

[Karla]

Just a quick update. I have done three sessions on my lap today and it went great. I have done them before, when it didn’t turn out so good, but these times it worked really well. Really well, means no fighting and no moving around. Just two bunnies lying still on my lap with some occassional grinding. I’m not sure of the grinding coming from Freddie wasn’t due to stress, but at least Karl grinded his teeth out of pleasure, and Freddie was relaxed.

I will do more of these, because they are less stressful for me and the bunnies. Perhaps 10 times a day was a bit too ambitious, but if I can do 4-5 then that would be great. And then by the end of the week, we can see if I should put them in the trailer or in the pen.

yeah, fingers crossed!

…Somehow I have a feeling that this is not the solution, because those two boys are not going to make it easy on me. But I do hope!

[Deleted User]

I had two buns here for bonding, valmore and Clifford, and the lap sessions were the only place they could be together too, so I just did that. I agree with you Karla, just do a million of those close petting sessions with the two rabbits sitting on your lap! It will calm everybody including yourself. It is sometimes just enough success to have found one place where they don’t fight.

[Deleted User]

Another technique you might like to try is the ‘dry rainstorm method’ that I used with someone else. You would use one of your cages without the bottom on it and set it in your garden or on the floor. Place a large metal tray such as an oven pan on top of the cage and then hit the pan with a metal object to simulate rain noise.

[Karla]

So I think I have done about #40 sessions now in total. The past 11 ones have been on my lap – purely petting for about 10-15 minutes. It is going okay. Initially, there was some vague attempts to bite whenever one of them got tired of being on my lap, but they have stopped that now. That is also why I keep the sessions so short. I rather have short, successful sessions than long ones that may end badly.

Anyways, it seems to be going well. They do grind their teeth out of contentment now and then. No grooming yet, but I hope it will eventually happen. Once I see grooming for a few times, I think we are ready to try other things. Perhaps a session in the garden.

[Karla]

Just to show you something nice in between all these frustrating updates:

 

 

 

Now, Freddie and Molly was an easy bond. As easy as all the previous ones have been. They took a liking to each other instantly.

It actually came as a big surprise to me that Molly welcomed him straight away since she was not as welcoming towards Jack when he moved in for the first 3 days.  But perhaps that was due to his illness

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although I love the fact that Molly and Freddie both groom each other, it kind of breaks my heart knowing that Molly never grooms Karl…

But I guess it is a bunny thing, and that Karl doesn’t feel as bad about it as I do  

Man, I hope Karl and  Freddie bond very soon, so all three can lie together.

[Deleted User]

cute pictures! I see you are in the black-and-white bunnies club also!

[Karla]

Another fight. Because I have to do so many sessions in one day, I want them to be easy to catch, so I keep them all in the bunny room and have divided it into two. This has worked well for the past couple of days, but now Karl just climbed over the cage and went into Freddie’s area.

Big step back But at least, I find one positive note on this: they were easy to seperate which has not been the case previous times. I put them straight up on my lap and petted them, and they did not try to bite each other, but kept still close to each other, and none of them were as stressed out as they have been before. So, although it was a fight, it seems it was not as aggressive as previously.

[Karla]

I have lost track of how many sessions, I’ve done. I’ve think I have reached session #56 just now. We don’t seem to go anywhere, so I just now tried putting them in the container to see if they would still be friendly towards each other. Nope. Freddie bit me the second I put Karl down in the container to him. So I moved them back to my lap, where Karl tried biting Freddie. But they calmed down and stayed on my lap for 15 minutes or more.

Freddie seems very relaxed on my lap and actually cuddles up close to Karl. Karl is a bit more tense, and his eyes look like they are popping out, but at least he is not showing any aggressive signs. Both try to avoid me and hide when I enter the room, because they know I am there to lift them. We are making NO progress at all. None whatsoever.

By the way, Karl has a nasty bite on his back…presumedly from their fight last week, so it wasn’t as innocent as I wrote.

 

[Deleted User]

Karla, it does remind me very much of Clifford and Valmore from my male quartet bonding. The only way to bond them is for you to turn yourself into an extreme rabbit vigilante: no fighting, no dirty looks, no thoughts of fighting you will tolerate … this sort of thing. Do keep up the sessions where they sit in your lap, and then also make a pen in your garden and use a garden hose this way: as soon as one approaches the other you splash water down on the ground between them and say “tshshshshsh”; quickly they learn what this means. They will spend many sessions just pouting in opposite corners but the idea is to wear them down. I do think you have it in you to wear them down.

[jerseygirl]

Go hardcore.

lol “Extreme Rabbit Vigilante” make it sound like you should be in some sort of super hero costume. Oh well, might as well make it fun.

[Karla]

LOL, you guys have great ideas.

These two guys are wearing me down. Latest news is that I have just gone crazy on the internet and bought tons of Bach’s Rescue Remedy (I used that a few times, but ran out) and Zylkene for rabbits. I am now moving forward to next phase: dope the bunnies!

I really need Karl to relax.

Although I prefer the quiet, but not-going-anywhere sessions, I will do as you suggest, Petzy – put on my bunny suit and hose them down outside. I can do that this weekend, I think. Poor bunnies!

[Karla]

I’m putting the bonding sessions on pause. I don’t like the way this is affecting Karl and making a previously skittish, but curious and funny bunny into an aggressive, nervous bunny who will growl and lunge at me, if I get too close to him on our bonding days. He is so easily stressed that this is taking its toll on him, so I need the zylkene to work on him for a while, before we start up again.

Also, yesterday there was a fight unfortunately. I put Freddie in a different cage than usual, which I thought was 100% bunny proof as not even Molly has been able to escape it. I went on an hour walk with the dog and when I was home, I just wanted to get something from the bunny room. I noticed the horrible smell (that always comes when they fight) and saw fur on the floor. Then I saw that the cage was empty! I finally found Freddie hiding behind the bin. Both seem to have a tiny bite mark on their back, but that’s it. Phew! At least, they have given up the fight, which I find positive. I really hope we can move to a house soon, so I have more room and can separate them! I miss having bunnies roam my apartment freely and when I didn’t have to feel bad constantly about one of them being caged. 

Another thing is that I was thinking that using stress techniques or having them on my lap maybe not be the way to go. If they were dogs, the Stillwell approach would be to let them slowly meet while making them associate each other with treats. If only I could find a way of doing this. Like this video here:

http://animal.discovery.com/videos/…ydney.html
 

[Karla]

Ok, so I am ready to start again! Freddie has been living in our living room for a good while, while Karl lives in the bunny room. Yesterday unfortunately, as I was cleaning litter boxes and hadn’t closed the door properly, they ended up fighting again. I really need them to bond soon.

So tomorrow morning I am starting off with Serene-Um to both of the guys and then I think I will do a session in the shower on the dog’s blanket. The bathroom is a neutral area, and I assume that the scent of the dog will make them both nervous. Fingers crossed for us! I really need this to work out. Unfortunately, my mum did not want me and the bunnies to visit, so I cannot use their place as a neutral area.

[Karla]

Not that I am even planning it at this point, but do you think bonding would be easier if I had another female? Molly is sharing her time between Karl and Freddie and I have noticed that Karl has begun chasing her lately, when she is back from having spend time with Freddie…so perhaps they are fighting over the only available female, and all problems would be solved with a 2nd female?

[Deleted User]

You can’t add a fourth rabbit without first bonding this trio. It is the fighting that ruins the bonding. Any new rabbit who Karl has not fought with would be an easier match at this point, so if there was another female, they may bond with her relatively easily but the problems between Karl and Freddie would persist. You have to break the cycle of fighting; having a bonding session now after they fought again may not be easy.

I wish they could go without any fighting for a very long time before you resume. And then I would take the two boys far away from Molly and your place, on a trip, ideally, and have meetings between them only outside of their familiar environment for a while.

[Sarita]

No, it would not be solved with a 4th female – it would make it worse! Definitely do not let them fight too. That’s what is keeping them from bonding…take it slower and get in the bonding pen with them…they should not be left unsupervised to fight.

[Karla]

I think Freddie is super-sexual or whatever you call it – like a buck. I did check today if he was actually properly neutered, and he looks just fine. Shame, It would have been easy if that was the cause. Anyway, he acts like an intact bunny. He still sprays, his poops smell, he still lifts his tail and sniffs Mollys butt and will try to hump her. I think he is overly masculine and does not go together with another male.

I have put him up for adoption. Having this warzone is upsetting. Their fights are vicious, and I have deep and painful swollen bite marks on my hands and arms (although I was wearing big winter gloves) for having done bonding sessions these past two days.

[jerseygirl]

First of all I want to let you know I’m sending (((peace vibes))) your way.

Now, can I ask a favour? Would you go back to having them in separate rooms for a bit and think about this again (rehoming) when you’re not feeling so upset? You’ve gone to a lot of trouble with Freddie’s health and I know you love him. Please look at this again when some days have passed. These latest bonding sessions could have been highly charged because the boys accidently got together and fought so recently. Hang in there!

[Karla]

We are living in a small temporary apartment (that the real estaters promised us would be sold by June) with only one extra room apart from the bedroom and living room. The extra room is the bunny room where Karl has been living so far. Freddie has been living in the living room, however, he eats the wood floors, and it is really, really bad. My boyfriend is freaking out and is very angry about this, so today I have changed it, so that Karl now lives in the living room and Freddie in the bunny room. At least, Karl only chews the bean bag chairs…

But I see no way out of this. This is not like two bunnies not getting along as you see in all the other threads – they are viciously fighting and they go all in for it. I have my boyfriend yelling at me and the stress of these two never getting along and I have no space to keep them separated. Freddie will even try to attack Karl, if I sit with Karl and Freddie is on the floor – he hates the smell of him.

And my boyfriend has asked if I didn’t rather want to give up Karl, because Karl is a bit of a loner and Molly seems to be mostly attached to Freddie and he is so outgoing, but how can I let my first bunny go?? And Karl is skittish, so he will never find another good home, but Freddie is easy-going, so he has a bigger chance.

I got them drugged on Serene-Um, I have lavender aromatherapy oil lamps going and nothing seems to calm the fights down.

[Beka27]

I wouldn’t blame you for wanting to find him a new home. You’ve been fortunate with easy bonds previously, but maybe Karl and Molly should just be a pair at this point.

[Author]

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