Bonding a baby and an adult bunny

[hummingbird]

Hi!

So I am new to bunny bonding, and it isn’t going as well as I’d hoped.  I have a 10 month old neutered boy bunny, who is super sweet and hasn’t shown territorial behavior since he’s been neutered.  He recently went to meet my parents’ bunny, who is a 10 year old male (so they didn’t seem to have much in common plus I read that 2 males often fight), but they got along great instantly.  So I thought my bunny would bond great with any bunny, especially one who was closer to his age and a female.

So we just got a baby female bunny 5 days ago, who is 8 weeks old.  And he doesn’t like her – he’s been angry and growling and trying to bite her and has accidentally bit me a few times.  He also has been super territorial and is pooping all over her cage. 

Part of the problem is that he had the run of our house, and her cage is in a room of our house that we goes into, though we haven’t let her in his main cage/room.  So we have now started putting them together in neutral territory, and he is usually indifferent around her, but once in a while will snap at her, and if he gets close to her he will snap.  He hasn’t shown any affectionate behavior with her.

Anyway, I’m now reading all about bonding and realizing that it would be ideal to have him pick out a bunny friend, and maybe should’ve gotten an adult bunny, though that wasn’t possible in our case, and now we already have this rabbit who we love.  Plus I’ve read that adults and babies are hard to bond, though I haven’t found any information or details on why… does anyone have any resources about this?  I would think adults would bond well with babies since they are harmless and friendly and not threatening or hormonal.

 Any info or resources on this?  Or hopeful stories?

Thanks!

[hummingbird]

Ok, so I’ve had my baby bunny for about 2 weeks now and bonding is not going well – I can see why people want to give up.
I’m worried that this is all my fault and I didn’t choose the right mate for my bunny – though she also is a baby, and I’ve read bonding babies and adults is more difficult (though I can’t find why), so maybe it is just that and not that their personalities aren’t compatible (because her personality is still blooming).
But I want to have a sign as to whether this is going to work out or not, so if needed I can return my baby bunny before I’m too attached to her (though I already am), and maybe try another bunny (though I don’t even know if that would make any difference).

My bunny, a 10 month old adult male, is somewhat macho, masculine, wildish, and used to be somewhat territorial, but since he’s been neutered 4 months ago he has been nothing but super sweet. Since we got this new bunny, he is not at all sweet to her… he is usually indifferent to her, but then when she gets close he always lunges and tries to bite her… not a full out fight, because we stop him and because she’s a baby and doesn’t fight back, but I wonder what it would turn into if we didn’t stop him. He also has been more aggressive in general, towards us, since we got her. It’s like he has flares of bunny instincts and mixed up emotions he doesn’t know what to do with. He is usually sweet but has bursts of agression, occasionally towards us, and regularly towards her. Though when he met my in-laws bunny, a 10 year old male who isn’t that friendly (so not a likely pair), they got along great right away, and my bunny was grooming him on the second day. I am so heartbroken over this and am worried I picked the wrong mate or am not bonding them right… I really didn’t think it would be such an issue. I figured if my bunny could bond with an old, kinda mean male bunny, he could surely bond with this young, sweet pretty female bunny. I also thought dominance wouldn’t be an issue, since he is obviously dominant over her since she’s a baby.

How do I know how to read the signs, what types of aggressive behavior is normal during this process, how do I know if it is hopeless? Maybe all bonding pairs are possible, but if it starts off so badly does it mean they will never be in love, even if they do learn to tolerate each other? Would I be better off trying for a ‘love at first sight’ scenario with another bunny. I can’t imagine how they can ever be that close after this. Even if my boy bunny finally warms up to her, I’d be lucky if my baby bunny ever trusts him again after the way he’s treating her when she’s so young and helpless.

Please help!

[Roberta]

Hormones ! Rarely do you achieve a bond between a youngster and an adult especially if someone is still developing. I think you can still achieve a bond but you need to separate them and put it on hold till every bun is spayed and neutered.
Next, in my personal experience girls tend to be the alpha buns… This may not be the case for every bunny.
Once again, both parties being desexed will go a long way towards creating harmony.
If you continue to try and force it at this stage the chances are you will damage future prospects of bonding because they will develop a dislike of each other.
Give them a time out, get them desexed and try again a month after in a clean neutral area.

[hummingbird]

My boy rabbit is neutered and has been for 4 months. My baby girl rabbit isn’t, but she is only 10 weeks old (and was 8 weeks when I got her), so hormones aren’t a factor for her. I understand when she hits puberty things may change , but I don’t understand it now as she is just a baby so hormones aren’t even an issue nor is dominance, since he’s obviously the dominant one. That’s why I don’t understand why people say it’s hard to bond adults and babies – it seems like it should be easier because hormones and dominance shouldn’t be factors.

[hummingbird]

Also, my baby rabbit isn’t at all aggressive towards my adult rabbit – she is so sweet to him and wants to be his friend, but whenever she gets close to him he snaps at her. So he is the one that IS neutered and yet he’s the one that’s aggressive. He used to be territorial before we got him neutered, but ever since he hasn’t been at all – like he used to get mad at us when we’d tidy up his cage/space, but not he just licks us. So I thought this behavior was gone.

[LBJ10]

Her hormones may not be a factor for her yet. But sometimes the hormone-free rabbit of the pair can sense that the other bunny has hormones (your baby has hormones, they just are expressing themselves as puberty yet) and it will drive them batty.

But let’s say that they get along now. What happens when your little girl does hit puberty? She might want to fight with your boy. If they get into a nasty altercation, then irreversible damage to their bond can occur. That’s why we always tell people to separate two siblings before they reach puberty. They may be buddies when they are young, but they will often fight once puberty hits. They have to be separated until they are both fixed and then reintroduced as if they were a completely new to each other pair. It would be the same for you. Your buns would need to be separated and then rebonded. So why risk a fight?

[hummingbird]

Yes, well that’s the dilemma –
Ideally, I would love for them to be bonded now, though we would still keep a close eye on them and watch them when they are together, and then see what happens – if at puberty, it is problematic I would separate them and rebond them later. But she still has 4 months until she can get spayed, so it seems ideal for them to spend time together before then unless it becomes an issue. The problem is, if I wait to bond them until after she is spayed, then if it turns out they aren’t a good match it’s too late to “return” her (the breeder I got her from will take back a bunny anytime), because I’ll already be way too attached to her, plus have put in all that time and effort (plus money to spay). I’m wondering if they aren’t bonding now, when she isn’t a threat and is so sweet to him, and yet he still hates her, why would he like her later? Are there any signs I can look for now to see if there is even hope for them? And why do people say babies and adults are hard to bond? Also, from her side, wouldn’t it be better for her to bond with him when she’s young, so they’ll grow together and she’ll be more likely to love him since he will have been part of her life since she was a baby? I am already attached to her and don’t want to give up – I’m just looking for some hope, and to understand the signs (like maybe its really better than it seems), and to understand why he seems to hate her and if it’s that they aren’t a good match (in which case maybe I should try another bunny?) or something else I’m missing. There is almost no information out there about baby/adult bonding, and it must be a totally different thing, since the baby is still growing into itself and it’s personality, so their personality could change, plus they’re at different ages and places in their lives… like I may be annoyed as a teenager if my parents brought home a baby? I just want to understand how this is different so I can factor that in.
Thanks!

[JackRabbit]

A few things are likely going on. First, when your bunny met your parents’ bunny, he was on the other bunny’s “turf” and would not have been territorial. Second, your parents’ bunny, being 10 years old, was likely pretty laid back (bunnies can be pretty mellow at that age). Third, when you brought your girl home, you brought a new bunny to boy’s “turf”. Last, even at 10 weeks, depending on the breed, her hormones are likely active and he can tell, even if she hasn’t reached puberty yet.

Most bunnies don’t have love at first sight, and there’s really no way to tell how easy or hard a bond will be until after she is spayed and her hormones calm down. Like the others said, trying to push it now is not a good idea and could make bonding them more difficult when the time comes. If you’re willing to put the time and effort into bonding them when the time is right, then wait it out. If you want an instant love at first site bond, it might take quite a while, but you could return your girl to the breeder and start taking your boy on bunny dates at shelters and rescues in hopes that he finds his soulmate.

[Peri and Poe]

From my personal experience of bringing a baby rabbit to an already spayed female rabbit, it’s not a very good idea. The problem with babies are that they are usually very over-friendly so will constantly try to seek affection from the other rabbit. My female rabbit was also dominant and territorial (although she was sweet before we introduced her to him). She hated whenever he came near her, she would growl, nip and lunge at him causing him to constantly run away-he was half her size and couldn’t really fight back. This also affected our relationship with her as she would start charging at us as well.

We found it helpful to separate them until we could get him neutered. This allowed her time to get used to his scent. We also reduced the space she was allowed to roam in, which reduced her territorial behavior. It was especially hard to watch our free range rabbit be caged but it worked out in the long run-her territorial behavior did eventually settle down although she continued to dislike him. We rearranged the furniture and neutralized the area with vinegar solution.

I would say not to get disheartened because most rabbits can get bonded, some just take longer than others and need the right methods.
Eventually, after 3 weeks after our male was neutered we put them into an x pen together. There was a lot of fights to begin (Peri charging and nipping, bullying him) however 1 week later they have started grooming each other, eating from the same bowl and sleeping close by each other.
p.s. we decided on the fast-track method, so we didn’t separate them at all during the bonding process. I feel like it forces them to realize they are stuck with each other and it’s easier to get along.

[LBJ10]

Posted By hummingbird on 12/28/2014 1:44 AM

 Also, from her side, wouldn’t it be better for her to bond with him when she’s young, so they’ll grow together and she’ll be more likely to love him since he will have been part of her life since she was a baby?

 I know that that sounds like the way it should work, but it really doesn’t. How a baby behaves is no reflection of how they will behave as an adult. Everything changes when they hit puberty and they develop into their own personality. There have been several cases here on the forum where pairs of siblings came home together, had been together since birth, and seemed to love each other……. until puberty hit and all of that went out the window.

There is almost no information out there about baby/adult bonding, and it must be a totally different thing, since the baby is still growing into itself and it’s personality, so their personality could change, plus they’re at different ages and places in their lives… like I may be annoyed as a teenager if my parents brought home a baby? I just want to understand how this is different so I can factor that in.

I think you just answered your own questions there.

 

My advice is going to be to keep them separated until the baby has grown into her adult personality. You can get them used to smelling each other and whatnot, but no real bonding should occur until after she is spayed. If you insist on doing bonding sessions now, then you will need to keep a very sharp eye out for any issues. You do not want your resident boy to hurt the baby, which could happen quite easily. I strongly discourage housing them together because you wouldn’t be able to monitor them 24/7. Even if they do seem to get along, just know that there is no guarantee she will still like him when she gets older. And if they get into a fight before they can truly be bonded, then you run the risk of them hating each other “forever”.

[JackRabbit]

I don’t see where my bunnies’ personalities have really changed since they were babies, their personalities have just gotten “bigger”! My sweet but opinionated girls turned into divas. My happy-go-lucky boy’s binkies just got crazier, but he’s still laid back and happy as can be. All bets were off during their “teen” period though! Moshi was extremely humpy, Marlee was moody (moodier than normal!), and Kieko was a complete terror. All returned to the “bigger” normal after spay/neuter. Bonding with their hormones raging would have a nightmare.

[hummingbird]

Thanks everyone!

Haha, yes I’ve heard so much mixed information from all I’ve read about bunnies…

Like, as far as a baby’s personality changing as an adult, I’ve heard that a baby’s personality is no indication of what their adult personality will be like, but I’ve also heard stories of the sweetest rabbits as babies growing up to be the sweetest rabbits. That’s also true with people – while it seems like their personality changes a lot as they age, the simple basic underlying personality has many similarities.

And as for my bunnies – it sounds like the main reason bonding a baby and an adult is a bad idea is because she has hormones? But why is it always bad to bond a bunny with hormones? I know why it can be bad, but in the wild and breeding bunnies have their hormones and can still bond. Just like people have hormones but can be friends. Besides, I thought the reason hormones were a problem is because the hormonal one exhibits territorial behavior, but that isn’t an issue in my case because my baby isn’t showing any hormonal behavior yet? Why would my boy bunny mind if he senses she has hormones? Besides, doesn’t he have some hormones, even though he’s been neutered? Sorry, I’m still so confused – I have heard it’s bad to bond a baby and an adult and that it’s bad to bond bunnies where one isn’t neutered, but am trying to understand exactly why. It seems like everyone has different experiences and there’s so much mixed info out there.

Thanks!!

[JackRabbit]

This is going to be an odd comparison, but . . . . Imagine an older man and woman meet and like each other and become a couple. Then the woman starts going through menopause. Her hormones start going wacky. One minute she’s sweet as pie, then next she’s crying her eyes out, the next she’s screaming and throwing things at the man. It can be 40 degrees F and she’s sweating and cranking the A/C. He turns on a fan for her, but she doesn’t like how he did it so she starts crying. But its all his fault because the fan blew her hair and now she’s ugly. The man has no idea what’s coming next. He’s part afraid of her, part confused, and part fed up with the whole thing. He calls it quits.
Had they met after she went through menopause, she would have been back to her normal self, the woman he liked.

I tried to come up with a teenage example but then his hormones would have been wacky too so that wouldn’t work since your boy has been neutered.

I told you it would be an odd comparison, but hopefully you get the point!

[hummingbird]

Thanks!
Yes, I completely understand why we will have to separate them while she’s going through puberty.
But right now she isn’t and won’t be for another 2 months or so, so what I don’t understand is why they’re not bonding now?
I’m wondering if this is a sign that he just doesn’t like her or if the hormonal/dominance/ difference in ages is the problem – and if so, why? I’m just still trying to understand why people say it’s hard to bond a baby and an adult?

Thanks!!

[JackRabbit]

Its not necessarily that you cannot ever bond a baby with an adult, its that the bond is not likely to last through the baby’s puberty and that it may be too late to stop a “breakup” by the time you realize her hormones are in their wacky stage. Once fighting starts, it can seriously affect re-bonding. Why risk potential injuries, bunny hard feelings, and possibly ruining their ability to re-bond just to satisfy your need to rush things? You should ask yourself, if you don’t have the patience to follow the plan that will give your bunnies the best possible chance at a successful long-lasting bond for years to come, will you have the patience to handle a potentially difficult re-bonding that may take months and months and still not be successful because you didn’t want to wait? I don’t mean to sound harsh, but this is something that needs to be considered.

My lops are half brother and sister and were born 3 days apart. They were kept together as babies and I got them together. We were able to keep them bonded with alot of attention to details, separating them at the right time, and having them spayed/neutered on the same day. From what I know of other similar situations, this was a rare exception, however, I was ultimately prepared to keep them as single buns if their bond suffered. In fact, my other bunny is a single bunny because I have not had the time or patience to bond the three. We made an attempt earlier this year and my girls did not do well together and had a nasty fight. We didn’t follow the best plan for bonding them, but wish we had.

If you really want these two bunnies to have the best chance of a successful bond, follow the advice we’ve all tried to give you and wait until after she is spayed and her hormones have calmed down (@ 4 to 6 weeks after spay). Spend the time until then strengthening your bond with each bunny — this will also benefit the bonding process of your bunnies as you will be more in tune to their behaviors. Its a perfect time to enjoy your bunnies!

[hummingbird]

Ok, that makes sense. I am not in a rush to bond them – I just wanted to understand this all better. I am a scientist so like to understand the why and explanation behind things I read. I’m also concerned by his reaction to her that I made the wrong choice of bunny friend for him. I didn’t have the option of bunny dating, and I tried to pick a bunny I thought would be a good match. I also love my new baby bunny and don’t want to have to return her (especially because I don’t know if the problem is really even her), but the biggest reason I got her is so he could have a friend, and I didn’t realize this would be so hard. I also am not sure what people mean when they say that a fight can damage their bond. What counts as a fight? Don’t most bunnies “fight” a bit while first bonding? My bunny has been mostly indifferent to my new bunny but sometimes lunges at her and growls and tries to bite her, at which point she runs away or we block him so he can’t hurt her. Is that a fight? We’re not going to have them together without us watching and we won’t let her get hurt. I’m confused because people say a bad bonding experience can damage their relationship forever, but it sounds like most bonding experiences start off bad?

[LBJ10]

Most bonding experiences start off with some aggression. But aggression isn’t the same as full-blown nasty fighting.

Honestly, I wouldn’t take his aggression right now as an indicator that they cannot be bonded. He is being aggressive because there is a new bunny being introduced onto his turf. That doesn’t count as fighting. Fighting is when they get a hold each other and really do some damage.

[hummingbird]

Oh ok, got it… thank you!

[hummingbird]

Ok, the strangest thing just happened…
I told me husband that we should wait to bond them until after she’s spayed, but he didn’t really listen.
My husband put our female baby bunny and teenage male bunny together, and she started humping him! She’s only 10 weeks old. He was watching them closely and holding our male bunny back, as he then tried to bite her but we stopped him. Now our poor male bunny seems so confused.

[JackRabbit]

Tell hubby to read all of this. Looks like your girl is about 10 weeks old now and if she’s a small breed, her hormones may be starting to wake up. If she’s humping him, she’s asserting herself and probably won’t stop. He may take it, but it will likely reach a point where he’s had enough, you just don’t know when that’ll be.

[hummingbird]

Does humping always mean hormones? I know it’s not just for mating, but for dominance – so can’t any bunny, hormonal or not want to assert dominance? Maybe she’s doing it because he’s been aggressive towards her, so she’s trying to settle things and find peace in their relationship?

[hummingbird]

Also, even once she is spayed, isn’t humping to establish dominance an essential step in bonding, since they have to establish who is dominant in their relationship? I thought this was a good sign from what I’ve read about bonding?

[Roberta]

Yes and No, Hummingbird. When hormones are involved things can go pear shaped pretty quickly as it also impacts on the humpee not just the humper. There will probably be some humping post spay but with the hormones removed the incidents should be briefer and as they won’t be fuelled by hormones the intent is slightly different, it is about establishing the pecking order in the long run but they seem to find it easier to come to an accord when both parties are desexed.

[hummingbird]

I see, thanks!
Wow, I wonder how rabbits ever get along in the wild.

[Roberta]

Did you ever see Watership Down ?

[hummingbird]

Haha, no – I’ll have to watch that.
Thanks!

[LBJ10]

Watch? No no, you have to read the book.

[Author]

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