Bonding 3 Rabbits

[tcm724]

Hey everyone 

I have 2 rabbits named Chestnut (boy) and Thumper (girl) who were just spayed/neutered on June 28th. Thumper is getting her stitches removed tomorrow and both of them are healed for the most part. This Thursday will make 2 weeks since the surgery. 

I just got a new bunny named Marshmallow (unsure of gender yet) that is around 2 1/2 months old. While Thumper and Chestnut were healing, I put them in one exercise pen and marshmallow in a separate exercise pen about 4-6 inches apart. They have been in this setup for the past week and a half. I have also exchanged litter between them and put in a stuffed bunny and exchanged that between them. As of right now, they seem to get along pretty well. Thumper and Chestnut will sleep or lay down on one side of the pen, while Marshmallow does the same right beside them on the other side of the pen. Thumper and Chestnut weren’t really territorial to begin with and were a bonded pair from the start since I brought them home together at 8 weeks old. All 3 rabbits are holland lops.

I was wondering how and when I would continue the process of bonding these 3 bunnies together. I’ve done some reading and some sites say I could start at 2 weeks, others say wait a month. What would the next step be? Small pen in the bathroom so they could interact? When would be the best time to further the bonding process? 

[Sirius&Luna]

It doesn’t sound like you’ve gone through a proper bonding process with Chestnut and Thumper. Babies can’t be bonded, and you still need to go through the bonding process for litter mates.

You can’t start bonding the trio until a month after Marshmallow is neutered. Before that, you can prebond, which is swapping them between hutches. Personally, I think you should separate all three since you haven’t actually bonded Chestnut and Thumper, and a third bunny can cause problems between bonded pairs anyway.

[tcm724]

Chestnut and Thumper were bonded in terms of being brought home together and staying together ever since: https://rabbit.org/faq-bonding-multiple-rabbits/ “Bringing two rabbits home at the same time. Quite easy, even if they’re same sex. Usually the new space is enough to make them become friends quite on their own.” This is what happened with them.

[Sirius&Luna]

I’m sorry, but I think that’s an irresponsible way to bond. Even if you bring them home together, you still need to spend time bonding them. I’m actually surprised by the bonding advice on the HRS, it’s pretty irresponsible in places. I don’t know why they would say that it’s important to wait until they’re spayed or neutered, then say that two babies are extremely easy to bond, which is simply not true. Babies get on with anyone, but it’s not a bond.

Anyway. The point remains that you shouldn’t attempt the trio until a month after marshmallow is neutered.

[tcm724]

Hey everyone,

Sorry for the delayed response. Thumper actually took all her stitches out by herself the night before the vet visit to get them removed 

I spoke with the vet about bonding all 3, and she said that it would be perfectly fine to start doing so 2 weeks after the surgery (which was yesterday). They are a very experienced animal hospital that treats a lot of bunnies and other animals so they seem reputable. She said to start off in a neutral territory with all 3, and gradually increase time and space. 

I started off yesterday with 2 meetings in the bathtub, about 8 hours apart. They were initially supposed to be 15 mins long but things went well so I let them stay together for an hour. Give me an opinion on how you guys think it went and what the next steps should be?

Here’s an overview of the bunnies:

Chestnut: neutered boy holland lop, 7 months old.

Thumper: spayed female holland lop, 7 1/2 months old.

Marshmallow: gender undetermined, 2 months 3 weeks old.

First Meeting (Thursday Morning): Chestnut flopped within 5 minutes and cuddled the baby. Thumper groomed the baby immediately for about 10 seconds and then went to her corner. Thumper also groomed herself a lot in front of the baby. She only lightly nipped at the baby twice which i intervened immediately. But, they seemed to be more of a “you’re in my way” kind of nips, nothing aggressive (no ears or tail up, no boxing, no swatting or thumping). Once I stopped her the first time, she didn’t do it again until a long while later. Overall, things seemed to have gone pretty well considering how bad they could’ve gone.

Second Meeting (Thursday Evening): Chestnut had the same behavior. He seems to really like the baby or be indifferent. He’s treating her the same as he treats Thumper which is good. Thumper actually flopped for the first time and groomed herself a bit during this meeting. She only nipped once this time. The meeting was about the same length as the last one. Things seemed to have gone pretty well.

Third Meeting (This Morning): Thumper flopped again, groomed the baby, and this time she kind of boxed the baby a little but same kind of attitude “you’re in my way” nothing super aggressive. She never went out of her way to go to the baby and attack her. This behavior always seems to happen when the baby is in the way. Chestnut had the same behavior, calm and flopped.

How do you guys think things are going? Should I keep them in the bathtub for the next few meetings or can I gradually increase the space/time? I have attached some pictures so you can see how the meetings have gone

[Sirius&Luna]

I’m not going to give you advice on bonding because you shouldn’t be bonding an unfixed baby to a pair. They will get along at the beginning because babies don’t have hormones, but once the hormones kick in, it’s very likely that horrible fights will occur, when the older rabbits realise there’s a hormonal rabbit in their territory. You’ve already said that Thumper has nipped and boxed the baby (which you should never allow during bonding anyway). This is a very dangerous situation for the baby. Please stop, the vet has not given you safe information. Read back through a few pages of this forum and see how many people have baby bunnies that get along perfectly, then suddenly have a huge fight.

If you are insistent on bonding then start with the two that are neutered.

I don’t know why you ask for advice if you’re not going to listen.

[tcm724]

I ask for advice to get someone else’s perspective. I got permission and instructions from the vet on how to proceed which is why I started bonding them.. I wouldn’t have done it had my vet advised against it. I’ve been on other forums before in regard to my birds and I haven’t felt as unwelcome as I do on this one. I just wanted advice since things seemed to have been going okay. Like I said, thumper wasn’t aggressive in doing so. She does it to chestnut sometimes to get him to move. She doesnt go after them and start a fight, shes just a grump. The two that are neutered lived together from the beginning and the vet said they were already a bonded pair so theres no need to start a whole bonding process with them.

[Harley&Thumper]

My advice is to stop the bonding sessions until your baby bunny has been neutered. Hormones tend to kick in overnight which often leads to very bad fights. We have had several posts on this forum where people have come home to find one of their bunnies missing their nose or a chunk of their ear is gone. I have a bonded pair and a baby bunny. If I come into the bonded pairs territory smelling like the baby bunny I often start a fight between my bonded pair.

[Sirius&Luna]

I’m sorry that you feel unwelcome, that was not my intention. I’m genuinely concerned by the advice your vet has given. I’m sorry if I came across as harsh.

I have had a bonded pair and a baby myself, and they’re now a successfully bonded trio but I waited until the baby was old enough to be neutered. Whenever I see trio posts, I always come to offer help because it’s something that I have direct experience with, and have done a crazy amount of research on, including speaking to RWAF approved vets. I also spend enough time on this forum to see a lot of horror stories where baby bunnies get horrible injuries when their hormones kick in and they suddenly snap from cuddling to fighting overnight. My advice is not an attack on you, it’s just what I have learned after bonding three times myself, and from learning from other posts on here. Anyway, I will leave you to it now.

[sarahthegemini]

tcm274 – unfortunately a lot of vets (even those that are rabbit savvy in terms of understanding the anatomy and how to treat them) don’t understand the complexities of rabbit relationships. It’s understandable that you would trust their advice but I urge you to read some of the threads here about bonding as I promise you, the members that have offered advice are not being dramatic.

Baby bunnies are lovely and friendly and get along with everybun and older buns get on with babies because they’re not threatened by them. Unfortunately, once baby’s hormones have kicked in, baby can either attack or be attacked and if it happens when you are not there to see it, the results can be catastrophic It’s because hormones make babies want to fight and mate.

Please take a moment to really think things through. If you put baby bunny with the two older ones, it can be very dangerous. However, if you wait until baby is neutered and you’ve pre bonded enough, you may have a very easy bond between all 3

[Bunny House]

Hi, I’m sorry you got bad information.
You are never suppose to bond babies and adults until they are all fixed. Vets often know about biology of animals but not the behavior of bunnies and they can often give bad information( I’ve had that a lot and I got on here and got great information) the baby can also be so scared of the adults that he acts all loving but he is scared and can get very hurt by the big buns. After the fixing, you can start pre bonding which as explained before, you swap them in the others houses and after they don’t show agression(2weeks or even months after) you can start bonding in neutral territories on bond dates. I know how bad you want all of them to be bonded but you are doing it prematurely that can cause bad fights to happen and scaring to the buns which will make them not want to bond after all have been fixed.

[jerseygirl]

It sounds as if Thumper tried save you (and her!) a trip to the vet by pulling stitches out herself. I hope she didn’t do any damage.

I’m sorry you did not get the type of advice you were hoping for. It appears you were starting a bonding journal and wanting some step-by-step feedback. However, members are just cautioning that it’s too early to start working on a trio.

The advice given has been done respectfully and only intended to help you avoid future frustrations or heartache. Your replies have also been respectful, thank you.

You’ll find this is a commonly shared perspective, not only on this forum, but with other rabbit groups. There will always be those “exception to the rule” cases where a trio did bond successfully this way, but more often the not, owners learnt the hard way that it was not the way to proceed.

I have a couple questions: 

Do you intend to have Marshmellow desexed when old enough? I see the gender is not clear yet, but if a boy, he would be nearly ready to be desexed. If female, it would be another few months. Although, some vets are comfortable desexing females at 4 months old.

I spoke with the vet about bonding all 3, and she said that it would be perfectly fine to start doing so 2 weeks after the surgery (which was yesterday). They are a very experienced animal hospital that treats a lot of bunnies and other animals so they seem reputable. She said to start off in a neutral territory with all 3, and gradually increase time and space.

Could your vet have meant 2 weeks after the 3rd rabbits surgery? Is she aware of the age of Marshmellow? Her advice about waiting until 2 weeks (for healing) is sound and she is also correct in recommending neutral territory.

You could proceed at the moment and enjoy a few weeks of “bonded” rabbits but Marshmellow is on the cusp of entering puberty. The hormonal behaviours and change in smell could cause you issues and even break the bond between Chestnut and Thumper. So there’s the risk of ending up with 3 unbonded rabbits. If you intend to get Marshmellow desexed, you could work on a trio after and only need do the bonding process once. Right now, you may end up doing all the work only to have it come undone once the hormones come in. 

  

ETA: I just wanted to add this HRS bonding guide from 2016 – http://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

[jerseygirl]

Posted By tcm724 on 7/09/2018 5:41 AM

Chestnut and Thumper were bonded in terms of being brought home together and staying together ever since: https://rabbit.org/faq-bonding-multiple-rabbits/ “Bringing two rabbits home at the same time. Quite easy, even if they’re same sex. Usually the new space is enough to make them become friends quite on their own.” This is what happened with them.

The house rabbit society is referring to bringing home 2 desexed rabbits into a neutral home. I had a friends rabbits bond this way at my place. They came home together for the car ride, with another person keeping watch on them. Then they went straight into bonding space. My home was completely neutral to them, so it was an easy bond. 

Are Thumper & Chestnut littermates? 

Littermates do sometimes stay together but more often then not, as they are past baby stage, the hormones cause squabbles or even fights.

And there is the risk of pregnancy of course. It sounds as if you got this pair done in the nick of time in that respect!

[LBJ10]

Hi tcm! I agree with Jersey 100%. Everything she said is correct. I’m sorry you felt unwelcome. Thank you (and everyone else) for keeping things civil. You’ve been offered some good advice, but I understand it’s confusing when you hear conflicting information (especially from your vet).

Also, I wanted to add a side note. You don’t know whether Marshmallow is a boy or a girl at this point. It would be unwise to put him/her in with Chestnut at this point. If Marshmallow turns out to be a girl, you could end up with a surprise litter on your hands! I say this because Chestnut has only been neutered for 2 weeks and neutered boys can still have viable sperm for 4+ weeks.

Right now, I would focus on Thumper and Chestnut. Work on strengthening their bond. Then, when Marshmallow has been spayed/neutered, you can start working on a trio. In the meantime, prebonding activities are fine as long as they aren’t causing issues between Thumper and Chestnut. You just never know when the scent of a hormonal rabbit will set off a bonded pair, even if they are already desexed.

[jerseygirl]

Posted By LBJ10 on 7/13/2018 11:55 PM

…
Also, I wanted to add a side note. You don’t know whether Marshmallow is a boy or a girl at this point. It would be unwise to put him/her in with Chestnut at this point. If Marshmallow turns out to be a girl, you could end up with a surprise litter on your hands! I say this because Chestnut has only been neutered for 2 weeks and neutered boys can still have viable sperm for 4+ weeks.
…

omg yes! I didn’t even think of that. I only considered if Marshmellow a boy and with Thumper being desexed, no risk of pregnancy. But didn’t even consider the reverse, between Chestnut and Marshmellow. 

@tcm, a lot of members here have owned (or been owned) by rabbits for a lot of years. And have been talking here with other owners for years also. Trust me when I say we’ve seen almost everything! Surprise litter galore.

[tcm724]

Hey everyone,

So far I’ve done 4 bonding sessions with them. Chestnut absolutely adores the baby. He grooms her and cuddles with her. Thumper has been grooming the baby a lot more too and hasn’t been as grumpy. I think she only gets upset when Marshmallow is in her way as in puts her butt in Thumper’s face lol.

Things have been going decently. They actually all ate spinach together (except for Marshmallow, too young). Thumper didn’t get upset with the baby near the food and neither did Chestnut. Thumper flops a lot more near the baby and overall not much aggression if any. It’s been reducing as the sessions go on. The baby actually feels comfortable grooming Thumper and Chestnut back which is adorable.

Marshmallow might be a boy, but I’m not 100% sure. I can see two little white balls, one on each side, that may be testicles but im not 100% sure. They are very very very tiny, like smaller than a BB pellet. No humping has happened whatsoever yet and the sessions are about an hour long each time. I think because Marshmallow seems to have a relaxed/submissive personality, Thumper hasn’t had much problems.

When I spoke with the vet, I mentioned that the baby was about 2 months 3 weeks old (turning 3 months this week) and she said that its more of an exception than a rule that the bunnies wouldn’t get along. She advised starting in the bathtub and progressing from there. I definitely intend to get Marshmallow fixed at 6 months which is when the vet is comfortable doing it. But overall, things have been going smoothly.

In regards to Thumper’s stitches, no she didn’t cause any damage at all. The vet said she healed beautifully and she seemed to have done it overnight toward the very end, maybe the day before or 2 days before the appointment

Thumper and Chestnut are littermates and have been together since we brought them home at around 8 weeks. Thumper and Chestnut have never fought even before they got fixed. The most Thumper has done is nudge Chestnut to get out of the way because he was in her laying down spot lol.

I’ve been prebonding for 3 weeks, swapping litter, blankets, etc and having their cages side by side. It hasn’t caused a problem at all and I’m not that worried about Chestnut and potential babies with Marshmallow if she’s a girl because he shows zero interest in humping her or anyone for that matter. He literally flopped on the bathtub floor and enjoyed the cool floor most of the time He doesn’t hump Thumper either. His hormones seem to have subsided for the most part. Right now everyone is lined up side by side along the cage walls as if they are trying to be close to each other

[LBJ10]

tcm – No one is saying that your bunnies won’t get along (eventually). Everyone is just concerned that you are rushing things.

From what I’m reading, Thumper and Chestnut were able to form a bond. The method through which they were bonded is not what is recommended by most rabbit experts, but everything seemed to work out OK in this case. We just want you to know that this isn’t going to be the case all the time. Some rabbits are an instant bond. Some rabbits are most definitely not! Each rabbit is different and each bonding case is different. Over the years, I have seen things go both ways here on BB. Sometimes siblings are able to grow up together and form a bond. Sometimes siblings (or strangers the same age) seem OK together while they are young and then all hell breaks loose when their hormones kick in. From my experience, the second scenario is more common than the first. This is why it is recommended to play things safe. There is absolutely no harm in waiting until everyone is spayed/neutered before starting the formal bonding process. It offers the best chance for success, in siblings and strangers alike. There is always a risk when you introduce rabbits to each other, but not waiting until everyone is spayed/neutered carries with it a much bigger risk.

I guess the question should really be… what’s the rush? Is there a reason you want them bonded sooner rather than later?

In the end, all we can do is offer you advice based on our experiences. We are not perfect, of course. But we have all been witness to unaltered bunnies who were “friends” ending up in a vicious fight. So everyone is understandably concerned. Whether you decide to take the advice given to you by other members is up to you. We just want you to know what can happen and we would hate to see something bad happen (e.g. nasty fight, accidental litter, etc.).

[tcm724]

As of right now, all I’m doing is 1 hour sessions in the bathtub. I think I figured out the problem though! Chestnut is a bit of a clumsy goofball and he likes to flop and hop everywhere so that was getting in the way of Thumper and Marshmallow bonding. I did another session just now and things went a lot better since they actually got to interact! Thumper groomed the baby a ton more and flopped 4 times this time!

I think until Marshmallow is neutered/spayed, I’m going to limit their interaction to playdates/bonding in the bathtub/neutral area, and then once they really get along, I’ll leave them together in their xpen home for hours at a time while im home, and then put Marshmallow in her own area whenever im out of the house or sleeping. I just don’t want Marshmallow to be alone and she seems to really get along with Chestnut and is even more comfortable around Thumper too.

Thumper has never gone out of her way or left where she was to be mean to the baby. It seems to have been out of being nervous/startled whenever Marshmallow startles her. So far, things actually went a lot better. They cuddled for a good 15 minutes, groomed each other, flopped, and were pretty decent. No ears/tail up, no chasing or humping or anything like that. I know when Marshmallow hits the hormone time things may or may not change, but I don’t plan on putting them together 100% permanently/leaving them unattended until after she’s fixed. Do you think this is a better solution?

[Bunny House]

The best solution is to leave the baby by itself until it is fixed and then you can start bonding.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m sorry you felt unwelcome. Please know that everyone here is just concerned about the safety of your rabbits. Most of the people who have commented are very experienced bonders. I’m not an experienced bonder but I do know that one of the biggest “Do Nots” of bonding is to never attempt to bond an unaltered bunny.

[LBJ10]

Ideal = Waiting until Marshmallow has been spayed/neutered before any further contact with Thumper and Chestnut.

Less than ideal (but I suppose better) = Allowing “play dates” under strict supervision only.

If these we my bunnies, I would want to wait until Marshmallow was desexed. If you decide to allow your bunnies to have “play dates”, then do understand that there is a risk associated with that and we don’t want to see anything bad happen to one of your bunnies. The best advice I can give under those circumstances (besides don’t do it) is to keep things brief and definitely do not leave them unattended. Something can happen in the blink of an eye, much faster than you might anticipate. If Marshmallow begins exhibiting hormonal behaviors, then it is time to keep them separate until she/he can be spayed or neutered. Once Marshmallow has been spayed/neutered, THEN the formal bonding process can begin. I wish you the best of luck!

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