Bonding 2 males – is it possible?

[sweetbluebun]

I’ve got a supersweet ND neutered male who is about 8 months old.  I wanted to get him a friend, unbeknowst to me, his girlfriend ended up being a boy.  I’ve read that sexing baby rabbits is very tricky and even the most knowledgable breeders can make a mistake.  Well the breeder offered to give me a female but my holland lop baby is so friendly I can’t part with him now (I’ve had him for 2 weeks).  I did one intro, in my NDs territory (this was probably a mistake).  And boy was my ND curious about the baby, his nose was everywhere and he was very interested in this new little bunny.  I let the baby out to do some cleaning and they got acquainted through the xpen gate of my ND’s pen.  The baby just loved my older bunny, he would periscope to see him and was grooming him on the face but I don’t think my ND liked him as much.  The ND started closing his eyes but then his head would kinda pop back and he kept doing that when the baby would lick him. 

After a few days I thought it might be safe enough to do face to face meeting.  So I let me ND out and he sniffed the baby all over as well as the baby’s litter.  I think the baby might have gotten too close, and my ND boxed him on the head once.  Well I yelled NO! and my ND just ran under the couch and peeked through to show me that he wasn’t happy.  After that I was scared that my ND might hurt the baby Holland so I decided against any more face to face meetings until my Holland is bigger and neutered.  Till then I was wondering if it would even be recommended to house them near each other just so that they get used to one another?  The baby is only 2 months old and he wont be neutered for another 2 months.  Right now I’ve got him upstairs and my ND is in an xpen in the basement.  I’d like to move the baby downstairs just because that way I can get him more room, and an xpen of his own.  Right now he’s in the laundry room, but it’s a little inconvenient to have him there because he needs to be moved out every time we do laundry.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

You certainly can bond two males

I think you’re doing fine and ND probably just got a little startled or angry and that’s why he boxed the baby, maybe the baby was too curious. It’s definitely a good idea to wait to do bonding until they are both neutered. But I think housing them together so they can see each and get used to each others smells is a good thing; It should be fine IMO to bring the baby down. Just watch that they can’t fight through the cage bars

[Beka27]

i agree that you should keep them together so they’ll get used to each other’s presence, but wait the couple months until the baby is neutered and healed to start bonding. when i was bonding mine, i had two xpens side by side with about 3 inches space betw/ the bars. now that they’re bonded, i’ve combined the two pens, while keeping the same size area and they are living happily ever after in their big shared pen. i have a whole room just for them, but i know that this is not possible for everyone… do you have an area where you can set-up a bunny-only space?

before (and obviously before i added the bunnies or their individual belongings!  i also had to block off the center opening so they could not squeeze themselves between the pens during playtime!)…

after:

 

this is my favorite article about bonding:  http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

[sweetbluebun]

Yes, your set up was exactly what I was planning to do. The only thing with it is, my ND’s space will be downsized because right now his xpen is propped up against a wall and now it’ll be smushed into the box size. I was even thinking of cominbing them into one big sqare and then have the bunnies seperated by a gate through the middle (like some stacked NIC cubes?) I really like your set up though and I have the space to do something like that. I’ll probaby go to the store this weekend to get a new xpen and some toys for the baby’s side of the room. I’ve been lurking on here for awhile and I’ve read that some people will switch their bunnies every now so they’re not as territorial. I might give that a try as well.

Honestly I don’t think my bond should be too hard because my ND is on the submissive side, like he’s very timid and a huge lovebug. He does the bunny purr while I pet him and kisses me on the nose. I think he’s nipped me twice and that was just to get down because I was holding him for too long and he’s always just been a really good bunny. He was very interested in the baby but it wasn’t like a crazy agigtated kind, it was hyper at first but he’s really mellowed after getting used to him. Right now the baby loves my ND but that might change when he gets hormonal!

Hopefully everything goes well. I wouldn’t want either bunny to get hurt and I do hope the holland wont bully him because he’ll end up being bigger than my ND (they’re almost the same size now!)

I might utube their bonding sessions and post them on here to get some bunny insight!

[Beka27]

i switched my bunnies betw/ the pens every night. you could either start doing that right away, or wait until the baby gets neutered and then do it during his month-long recovery time before you start bonding. i have some bonding videos of my two from this summer on my youtube account… (username: Beka27) feel free to check them out!

[sweetbluebun]

Wow the first meeting was tense! But the washer bonding is the cutest thing in the world! You’ve got some very cute bunnies and I love how they match!

[Beka27]

oh thank you. they are my pride and joy!

[sweetbluebun]

Well I think I had a setback today, it definately felt like one. I let my older bunny Cheeky out to play while I cleaned the poops he had left all over his xpen (he’s been doing this since the arrival of Guppy the baby holland). Anyways as usual he ran right over to Guppy’s xpen and they began their usual game of sniffing and backing away from each other, then coming back again and sort of chasing each other around through the pen. I usually keep a close eye on them while they do this, just to prevent any bunny bites. About five minutes goes by, and the two are fine then all of a sudden I see Cheeky literally fly back a foot and I hear a small squeal. I rush over to inspect him and I see a tuft of fur that’s been ripped out of his head. I can even see the small bald spot on his head where the fur was ripped out by Guppy. I was really upset and felt so horrible for Cheeky. He just sat there hunched down and closing his eyes while I soothed my poor bun. I was a little angry at Guppy (I know I shouldn’t be, and I pushed him away with my hand when he came back to the gate of the xpen to sniff Cheeky again) I did this twice and he left Cheeky alone and I kept comforting him. I went back to fixing up Cheeky’s run and he ran back over to Guppy. They sat down next to each other and Cheeky kept putting his head near Guppy’s and closing his eyes. I smushed the two of them together and petted them at the same time so that Cheeky wouldn’t leave the session on a bad note. I put their heads together through the gate and kept petting. All of a sudden Cheeky started grooming Guppy through the gate, right around his ears. He kept this up for a few minutes and Guppy was just loving it. His eyes started to close and I kept petting both of them while they started to sleep next to each other.

I mean in a way I guess it’s a step forward to see Cheeky groom Guppy (he’d never done it before) but I just can’t shake that horrible feeling of seeing my baby get hurt. It was really had to watch and I feel bad about resenting Guppy for what he did, but I had Cheeky first and I guess I’m more attached to him. I just don’t know if I can stomach anything worse than what happened today in terms of their bonding situation. Like I said earlier I don’t plan on starting the actual bond until Guppy is neutered but I’m just worried about how much he’d bully Cheeky now. Guppy is only 10 weeks old and he’s already taken a big jab at Cheeky and I’m just worried about him doing anything else. To be fair Cheeky has boxed Guppy but I feel like his aggression is less mild than what Guppy is capable of. I just don’t know what to do! Am I fretting too much? Or is this natural? I want what’s best for Cheeky and Guppy. When I saw Cheeky’s head turned towards Guppy’s body and the two of them sleeping together I realized how important another bunny companion truly is for bunnies. They just looked so content together (even though they’re not bonded yet).

Right now I feel like I was selfish in keeping Guppy because I found out he was a male but I kept him anyways, the breeder offered to give me a female but I refused and now I’m feeling like I didn’t do what was best for Cheeky. I’m just really bummed right now

I utubed what their usual interaction through the gate is like, it’s slightly tense but I didn’t think it would result in bites

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5MnNZGhreo

[Beka27]

aw poor bun! this is not horribly uncommon. bonding bunnies is serious business. i’m glad you’re not going to start until after Guppy is neutered. you say he is 2.5 months, so he might be ready to get it done in as soon as one month. you will need to wait at least a couple weeks after that, and maybe up to a month or two for the hormones to clear out. at that point you can start switching pens and doing short sessions. in the meantime, i would make it so they cannot get to each other in between the bars, even if you just drape a blanket or sheet over the side so they are protected both ways.

don’t feel bad for keeping him.  he needs a home and you’re providing that.  they probably will, but even if they do not bond, will you still be able to care for them both?

[sweetbluebun]

Well I think he might be dropping pretty soon, the breeder told me his dad dropped at 3 months too. Unfortunately my rabbit vet doesn’t do neuters until at least 5 months, so I”ll have to wait till then (he’s very good and I trust him so I’d like to stick with what he says). When I cleaned today, I dropped Cheeky off at the very front of the basement and shooed him away when he tried getting near Guppy’s xpen. That worked alright, and Cheeky just happily binkied away and played by the couches (which he loves). Guppy seemed a little forlorn for Cheeky though, he sat right at the tip and just watch Cheeky romp (Guppy isn’t potty trained yet so I don’t give him run of the basement like Cheeky gets).

I don’t feel bad about keeping Guppy, I was just rethinking everything and making myself crazy. I’ve read about male/female bonds that were just as rough so I don’t think keeping Guppy was the problem so much as my lack of attention when Cheeky was out. Of course I’d keep Guppy no matter what, I come from the school that you’re absolutely 100% responsible for the life on an animal once you take it on. I will care for him for the rest of his life no matter what the inconvenience or amt of work because I am responsible for him. Plus he’s a cute little guy and I’m just the knid of person that second guesses so if something drastic ever came up, I still wouldn’t give him up because no one would take care of him like I do! Also the stories out there of non rabbit savy folks out there are a little scary. Rabbits are intelligent, lovable little creatures and they need alot more than a cage and gropes through the bars.

[sweetbluebun]

Update – Since the fur pulling incident, things have calmed down quite a bit. The side by side interactions have been less tense and both bunnies seem more comfortable with each other. I’ve also been seeing some grooming done by both buns, because of that I got pretty encouraged. I decided to do a face to face session with both buns in a seperate room just to see how they’d act. I felt like Guppy would be ok because he’s almost bigger than Cheeky and I didn’t think Cheeky would do a repeat of the boxing episode. So anyways, I brought the two bunnies into the room and put them on the ground. Cheeky sniffed Guppy for a bit then immediately began mounting him over the face! Guppy just got very submissive and let himself be mounted. I let it happen a few times and then I pushed Cheeky off. He let Guppy go, and Guppy didn’t run away he just casually hopped off, so I don’t think he was too traumatized by the whole thing. Cheeky mostly stayed on the persian rug that I have in that room while Guppy continued exploring. He’d go to another part then come back again to Cheeky, Cheeky wouldn’t follow him off the carpet (I’m not sure why). For the most part it wasn’t super tense and there were times when both of them just did their own thing. Cheeky just wanted to mount Guppy and he wanted to be groomed by him, and Guppy complied with both. There was an instance where I think Cheeky pushed Guppy too far and he nipped him a little and Cheeky immediately backed off and began grooming Guppy’s ear.

So I don’t know if that’s a complete success or not. Guppy is almost 3 months old so he hasn’t gone through bunny adolesence just yet, he’s still a baby. I’m not sure if I should keep doing the short play sessions or if I should wait another 3 months until Guppy is neutered? I only let them alone for about 10 minutes, and other than the mounting (which I won’t lie was a little hard to see) both bunnies didn’t seem stressed or bothered too much. I think they’re fairly used to each other now because I’ve had them living so close together and I can tell they send visual cues to one another through the gate. For instance if someone comes running down the basement stairs, Guppy will immediately hop over towards Cheeky’s side of the gate and watch him for any warnings. If Cheeky doesn’t like the sound of the pounding (often times if he’s startled, he doesnt’) he will thump his feet and that will be Guppy’s signal to run into his hidey hole. Guppy also spends alot of time just staring into Cheeky’s xpen, while Cheeky’s eats, sleeps, and goes about his daily business. Ideally I’d like to continue with the sessions so long as there isn’t any agressions because I don’t want anyone to get hurt.

[Beka27]

you can let them play together before the neuter, but be aware that the puberty and neuter healing time might totally undo everything you did. i would continue to watch for signs of aggression, b/c they can sneak up out of nowhere.

[sweetbluebun]

That’s what I was thinking, if Guppy started to near puberty and wasn’t so accepting of Cheeky’s desire to be top bun. I’m very careful, I had a spray bottle and oven mits at the ready in case there were any squabbles, fortunately Cheeky is very good and stops bad bunny behavior at the sound of NO!. I’m just worried about a fight breaking out then a grudge being held by either or both bunnies. Will they remember if they get into a fight?

[Beka27]

yes. they probably will. that’s another big risk. for a long time, my girl kept nipping at my new boy, not even hard, just small nips and lunges. after awhile of that, Max was so scared that anytime she came near him he’d bolt. i had to kind of take a step backwards to get him to be less afraid of her.

[sweetbluebun]

So I have another story to tell in the Cheeky-Guppy chronicles. Today I let Cheeky out during some routine cleaning, he’s allowed run of the basement when I’m down there, so I tend not to keep track of him while he’s running around. I cleaned out Cheeky’s pen, then I moved on to Guppy’s. I had to slide the gate to the side because I wasn’t able to walk over it (sore thigh from working out-thanks new year’s resolution). Anyways no sooner than I go to slide the gate does Cheeky quickly run beneath me and scampers into Guppy’s pen. I sorta of just froze, not realizing what had happened. I tried to gently push Cheeky out but he wasn’t having it. At first Guppy didn’t even notice, he just hopped by Cheeky to get some water. Eventually the 2 got closer and Cheeky leaned in for some grooming. Well Guppy did far from comply, he suddenly manuvered around Cheeky and mounted him! Cheeky was seriously freaked out and then they started chasing each other in circles, each trying to get on top of the other. I think they were nipping each other too, luckily I was able to get Cheeky off with out getting bitten. I shooed him out and closed Guppy’s pen.

Well after all the commotion has died down, I think that will be the last of the Cheeky-Guppy meetings until Guppy is fixed. (the yhadn’t met again face to face sicne the last time I posted on here about it because I had cut Guppy and I didn’t want anything to happen to him). Guppy just turned 3 months old!!! I didn’t think he’d have it in him to do what he did. It seems like now I’ve got two bunnies that both want to be dominant. I was hoping Cheeky would get to be, just because I know he’d rule with kindness over an iron fist but now I’m thinking Guppy will be getting top spot and he’s alot rougher. Oh well I guess I will have to wait and see.

[sweetbluebun]

After many months I am very happy to announce that my 2 males Cheeky and Guppy are completely bonded. There is still some occassional mounting on Cheeky’s part, I think mostly to just reinforce to Guppy that Cheeky is the dominant rabbit. To be fair Cheeky is a very generous boss, offerring up plenty of grooming and cuddles for Guppy. They’re together all the time and just love each other now. When Guppy runs off in one corner of the basement it only takes Cheeky a second to follow his best buddy. They play very nicely together and they love sleeping in bunny balls underneath their cardboard hidey holes. I’ve combined the pens to make a square with a L shape in between so that if there are any tiffs, they can at least retreat to another side of the pens. Other than that, I’m so happy that my little guys have bonded! On a side note, I am now the mommy of a very cute and cuddly Australian Shepherd named Bean. I haven’t introduce them to the buns yet, I’m a little nervous, but I hope that Bean and my buns will be able to get along well. I just got him this past weekend, so we’re working on potty training right now, but Bean is such a smart little doggy, he hasn’t even had 1 accident thus far!

[MooBunnay]

Wow! Thats great news! I was just reading the posts and thinking of what advice to provide and then I saw your last post – great work You’ll have to hang around on the bonding forums every once and awhile and let us know your bonding secrets. Also, let us know how the dog/bunny introduction goes. I’d like to get a dog one day but it definitely has to be able to get along with the bunnies.

[sweetbluebun]

Thanks Moo! Well if I had one secret, I would say it’s patience. All in all, I would say my bond wasn’t the easiest, but it was by no means difficult. It just took time, patience, and 2 neutered bunnies!!! I think having them living in adjacent pens was probably the best thing that I did, that way they got very used to living near one another and smells without aggression. After Guppy was neutered alot of his hormonal issues cleared up very nicely and I had 2 friendly and ready to bond buns! It took me from November to March when I finally had them living together in the same pen without incidents. I would also say to not be overly sensitive and let the bunnies sort things out, yes fur pulling and boxing is hard to watch, but you’ve got to let the buns figure things out for themselves, it’s the way nature programmed them. I think I was too sensitive in the beginning and seperated them before anything could happen, I think this confused Guppy and prevented Cheeky from being dominant bunny. Just let the buns figure it out folks, if they want to be best friends they will be, but you can’t force them into straight away.

[MooBunnay]

That is a good point – I think the hardest part for me is not interfering – I always get overly paranoid and sometimes even get nervous when one just sniffs the other because I’m afraid a fight will break out. I think they probably also pick up on my nervous/tense emotion and that makes them feel out of sorts as well.

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