Bonding 2 females – continues

[bunnymama]

Thanks for the bonding section —-

Last month I posted that I already had Baby (2+ yr old female netherlands dwarf, spayed) and was getting Gracie (2+ yr old female Lions Head dwarf that was spayed 2 weeks ago the day I got her).

Baby (first bun) has full run of the house when we are home otherwise she is contained in a bedroom but never locked in her cage. Gracie (new bun) has a large pen area with cage in  a separate bedroom and I just taught her yesterday how to go in and out of her cage into her pen (and she now will never be locked in her cage again).  I was going to start bonding this week but am wondering if I should wait longer for Gracie’s hormones to settle down.  What does everyone think?  Wait longer than just slightly over two weeks?  I really want this to work.

 

Thanks —love the site still –Bunny Mama

[Sarita]

I think if you have the luxury to wait, I would wait a few more weeks and then start slowly.

[MarkBun]

Agreed. If you can wait 8 weeks, it would be a good thing to do. You could start with the ‘stunt double’ though and have them begin to get each other’s scent so when they come across one another, it won’t be a complete surprise to them.

[bunnymama]

Thanks for the advice. Promise to wait for at least 4 weeks but I’m sure I won’t be able to take 8 weeks since I’m stressed at having Gracie the new girl in a pen instead of roaming free where she should be.  When I get closer to starting to bond, I’m sure I’ll have many more questions. Take care bunnny slaves….

[Beka27]

once she is reliably littertrained, you might want to start allowing them separate runtimes. it will cut down on your first rabbit’s outtime, but as long as she’s getting the recommended 4 hours a day, i wouldn’t worry about it. plus 1st bunny will be able to get used to the scent of the new bunny. this will also give you some time to start to bond and get to know the newcomer.

[bunnymama]

So Beka27 you suggest letting the new girl out to roam the house while bunny #1 is in her bedroom.  Interesting thought and I was wondering about doing that.  So it should help them get better acquainted with each others scent.  HMMMM. Maybe I’ll try that a little this weekend.  Baby my first bun has been all over and I mean chinning everything in sight everyday, everytime she goes by something (long before bun 2 came into the picture).  I’m pretty sure that bun 1 – Baby will be the domainant bunny – she bullies me all the time — I am a bunny slave after all.  Thanks –Bunny Mama

[Beka27]

be aware their might be some territorial marking with poops… but i think it would be better to let them smell each other.

[bunnymama]

Okay so I’ve let Gracie bun #2 roam the house freely for about 5 days now. Baby bun #1 wasn’t exactly happy about it. They both left poops and Baby pooped and urniated in the master where Gracie was not allowed to go.This was on day 1. Since then they’ve both sorta accepted the others scent. But it was getting harder and harder to keep them separate and give them ample run time so today we started bonding (neutral setting).  This session went for 15 minutes (which felt like 15 hours to me and my husband) and at first they ignored each other. Then came nose to nose and Baby was smelling Gracies #2 face.  Baby then showed some gently signs of domaince like sniffing at Gracie’s butt and a very low key chase around a little. They separated and then Gracie ran over toward Baby #1 – Baby ran away and Gracie chased her and took out a chunk of fur! Spray bottle went into action on Gracie (about 3 squirts) to get them to stop since I could see that Baby was getting very afraid.  They separated for a bit and then Gracie ensured again they did a leap in the air side by side but in different directions.  Then Gracie ran toward Baby once again and was showing signs of aggression and Baby was quite scared so we sprayed the water bottle separated and returned them to the thier rooms.

Not too bad for the first go around. I can’t believe the Baby #1 who has bossed me and my husband around for almost 2 years now is running from Gracie the newbie.  This is sooooo stressful. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks –Happy 4th of July you Bunny Slaves!  I plan on another session tomorrow morning again for like 20-30 minutes if all goes well.

[Beka27]

was this their first meeting? i have a bonding thread in this forum about Max and Meadow. it takes time, but i’d suggest you try and do some bonding every single day. it’s very easy to get frustrated… but if you keep your eyes on the ultimate goal, that will hopefully motivate you. it took me 3 full weeks of bonding (i did at least one hour per day). i started off where you are with fighting and fur flying. they both had bites on them and Meadow actually ripped Max’s lip… but as of today, they’ve been penned together for 3 days straight with no fighting at all. so take it slow… you need a small neutral area. i was bonding in my bedroom and i gated off part of the room so we were in a space no bigger than about 3 x 6 feet. they need to be close so they cannot avoid each other.

Markus and Sarita helped me a great deal with the bonding, so if you continue to update in this thread, they will hopefully come by and offer more guidance.

if you happen to have a camera with a video feature, i’d suggest you take short videos (a minute or two) of how they are interacting. this was very helpful when i was trying to describe behavior. i have several videos saved on my youtube account. if you’re interested in seeing the progression, you can either view them thru my bonding thread or thru my youtube directly (youtube/Beka27).

good luck!

[bunnymama]

Yes this was there first bonding session. I will stay commited but Baby #1 has been terrified in her room all day, not sleeping and just cowering all day long! She is normally so sweet but since she was being chased and nipped I’m afraid she thinks that Gracie #2 will come into her room even tho Gracie can’t. I feel bad for Baby since she is so sweet she ran right over to Gracie and started to sniff her face and then Gracie backed away and seconds later Gracie started to chase Baby. Once domainance is determined will the aggressor back off? If not I’m not sure what I’ll do since Baby #1 is very upset by all of this. Gracie #2 is just hunkie dorrie while poor Baby is freaked out. We are trying again tomorrow morning some time and will try to go longer as long as they are doing okay. When one is really scared should we stop? I know Baby #1 very well and can tell how she is doing. Thanks and I’ll update again tomorrow after the session –wish us all luck….no video cam, I have a digital camera that I’ve not learned how to use in over 1.5 years I am sorry to admit. Think I’ll jump over to utube – never been there but hear about it.

[Beka27]

so Baby is not territorial over her home at all? usually it’s the other way around. the first bun feels they have to guard their turf. put them side by side and pet them constantly. you want to end on a good note. so if they start to fight, intervene… try to calm them down and then separate.

[bunnymama]

Baby has been territorial – pooping and urniated twice now siince Gracie #2 joined us. Yesterday we did another session -second session. We petted bot the them rapidly which really calmed them down. They were a good distance apart and eventually Baby got bored hopped over to about 2 feet from Gracie – paused and then hopped away. She went about her business for quite awhile just checking things out. She then circled back by Grace #2 again paused and then hopped away. After I tried to give them carrots to send the session on a good note neither one would eat. They did quite a bit of self grooming in the session tho. Graciie #2 went sorta charging over to toward Baby which she had done the day before but when my husband touched her back she just darted in a different direction and then we ended the session.
Both rabbits have been pooping all over the common areas of my house and chinning like crazy. I feel that Baby #1 definetly wants to bond but I’m sure about Gracie since I’ve only had her for 4 weeks tomorrow.
We might do 2 sessions to today and I’ll post again. Keep the suggestions coming…..
Should I put them in each others rooms or wait awhile before doing that — think it will freak Baby out — was thinking maybe for just a few hours today since I’m home from work.
Happy Sunday to all bunny slaves……

[Beka27]

i would move their cages into teh same room, so even when you’re not bonding they can see and smell each other. keep 3-4 inches between the cages so they cannot bite betw/ the bars.

[Sarita]

I agree with Beka put them in the same room. Remember too that bonding is about forming trust and it can take rabbits awhile to trust each other. At least they will see each other and observe each other.

It does sound like the second session went well. But you do need to be persistent and keep up the routine. Don’t be discouraged by the 2 day, it hasn’t been very long really.

[Sarah Jones]

just wanted to wish you luck! i think each situation with buns is different from what i read on here. you might find that something helps you bond yours that causes fights with other buns. you should (with trepidation!) try lots of bonding techniques and find the right one for you.

one thing though that i agree on with beka is, definately put them in the same room. everytime you take them away from each other it is almost like being back at square one. maybe when they are out together through a lot of food down. they might munch at the same time and this is a nice way for them both to see that it’s not all about being dominant? i’d maybe try herbs rather than carrots though. a pot of herbs can tempt even the most grumpy of buns to it

self grooming in front of each other is a very good step too!

[Beka27]

food is a great idea. i always had a litterbox with a bunch of hay and a plate of greens or herbs. a few times i would even mix in some little matchstick carrots. i believe that a bunny that is comfortable enough to eat is not worrying about fighting. at first they would take turns eating the greens or hay, after awhile they were eating together. food is a bonding activity all by itself. if their cages are next to each other, put their food bowls as close as possible so they can see the other bun eating at the same time they are.

[bunnymama]

Thanks so much for all of the recent posts. Since both Baby #1 and Gracie #2 are free range bunnies each within their own bedrooms, would it make sense to put there cages in one room BUT ONLY FOR LIKE THE AFTERNOON WHEN WE ARE AT WORK AND THEN MOVE THEM BACK INTO SEPARATE ROOMS. I worked so hard to give them freedom I hate to lock them both back in each of their cages. Or would moving Gracie and her cage in and out of Babys room each day cause too much stress. I would only cage them in the same room, 4 inches apart for about 4 hours in the afternoon when they mostly sleep anyway. I’d use Babys room since ultimately that is where I want both of them to stay.

Bonding session #3 last night went for 50 minutes but they avoided each other, I need to make the space smaller. Baby #1 approaches Gracie very slowly but then Gracie #2 just goes at Baby at a fast speed and then Baby gets scared and runs by either me or my husband. Last night they both pooped everywhere and when Baby got scared she sprayed urine all over my new rug (not new anymore and that rug is coming out for next session tonight). Grooming and treats went okay but since Gracie nipped Baby on day 1 Baby runs from her every chance now. They did come nose to nose once and then both kinda ran off. Not too bad I guess.

Keep the advice coming……..another session tonight.

[Sarita]

Can you put them in x-pens side by side? That way they could have plenty of room – see Beka’s original set-up. I understand how you feel about giving them their freedom and not wanting to disturb that but I think that you should make bonding the priority instead of the freedom right now. I don’t think you can have both in my opinion. Once they are bonded then you can give them the freedom again.

[Sarah Jones]

running and coming face to face and a nip is SO much better than some of the stuff mine have been doing. one of mine had a bleeding mouth and the other a hole in its ear. i thought it was a no hoper! now mine are at the stage where they are doing occasional nips and a lot of running away rather than actively fighting. sometimes avoidance is a step in the right direction. the eating thing will help. they will get hungry and see the food there and eat and then go “oo i forgot you were here and you’re not hurting me so i won’t run away”.

also, i think bonding is a good enough cause that you can cage your buns for a bit. they will appreciate it in the long run when mummy and daddy go to work and they have a friend to get there bunny cuddles from instead.

[Beka27]

i absolutely second what Sarita and sazemoo said…

you need to decide what the priority is. is it freedom for two single buns? or is it reduced runtime but BONDING within the next few weeks/couple months? they WILL have less freedom, but the outcome is worth so much more for them both. they could potentially DOUBLE their freedom in the long run since they won’t need separate times.

if there is a bunny room where you want them to be permanently, i’d suggest you move the current bunny out of there for a day or two and give it a thorough cleaning. wipe down the walls, clean the carpeting or flooring very well. throw away and replace old cardboard boxes, phone books, or any toys that are really “claimed” by the first bun. make it sparkle. then move them both in there and there they stay. switch the buns to the other cage everyday. they can still have playtime separately for awhile, but they always go back to that room.

[bunnymama]

Session #4 tonight didn’t go so well. It was only 30 minutes. Started out okay but Baby #1 is so nervous she approaches Gracie #2 and then turns and runs. Sometimes Gracie just sits and other times she follows and nips at Baby. Baby had fur everywhere – poor thing. This is a really hard thing for me to keep doing but for now I’m gonna try a little longer. They both did groom, poop alot again and did eat treats about 2 feet from each other. I saw some signs of aggression from Gracie once but Baby seems to be so nervous and somewhat aggressive. Lets just say they were both soaked when we took them back to thier spaces. Baby then proceeded to come upstairs and collapse for a few minutes and then forged around the house chinning and pooping everywhere she could.

Thanks to recent posts, tomorrow morning I will move both of their cages into the kitchen making a L shape(some what neutral area) and leave 4 inches between them and allow them to be caged all day. When I get home at 5:45 I’ll move them each back into their rooms, do bonding session in same room as always and then back to their separate rooms with cages for the night but free range. I just can’t bring myself to cage them 23 hours a day and that is what would happen. I’ll see how that does for the rest of this week. I have a big party on Sunday – but I will do bonding session that day still but they will have to be in their own rooms again.

Keep any ideas coming and thanks much.

[Beka27]

the bonding session seems kind of normal for the beginning stages. that’s good that they were able to go about their business while the other was there. Baby may end up getting very scared of Gracie if this continues, but as things progress she should be able to come around. i know it’s tough to watch them fight and be frightened, but remember that this stage is only temporary. keep at it.

will you be switching rooms then? an important part of bonding is changing them up so they do not become territorial. can they go to the other room each night?

[bunnymama]

This morning I moved them both in their own cages into the kitchen right next to each other with no freedom –just caged. They looked so sad but I really think this will help alot getting them more familiar with each other. Tonight after work, they will each go back to their own rooms with their own cages. Tomorrow moring back to the cages in the kitchen but we’ll switch them into each others cage every other day till at least Friday. I’d like them to get use to going into each others cage for a few days and then I might try the switching of the rooms at night (but is another whole level of complexitiy) Bonding session again tonight too. I’ll keep you updated.

[bunnymama]

Session #5 wasn’t good. Baby #1 keep lunging at Gracie #2 with her teeth showing but she has never, ever nipped Gracie. But after the lunge, Baby turns to run and Gracie nips her every time. Poor Baby has her fur tufts everywhere. Gracie got hosed down with the water bottle after her last nip. By the end no one was happy anymore and I was totally discouraged.
Next morning back into each others cage for the day side by side in the kitchen. Oh they were not happy at first, they both peeped and pooped everywhere in their cage “of the day”. While at home for lunch I just talked to them both and petted alot. During the short time home I noticed they were paying attention to each other – like checking each other out. Later at night session #6 went extremely well. I talked to Gracie more to keep her clam and I would break Baby in her lunging stride before she reached Gracie so no nips at all. This might be key -to keep Baby from lunging and then consequently getting nipped. Tonight we will try again – I’ll try to keep them busy with something part of the time too. They sat fairly close to each other when eating a treat and I was petting. The pile of food as suggested above somewhere I think is a terrific idea except Gracie #2 won’t eat anything but carrots, pellets and hay. Nothing — I’ll have to start a new thread on that one.
I’ll continue to post — I’m now encouraged after last night. I think having them in the cages side by side all day and all night has helped alot. They are not exactly happy to have their freedom gone but it’s just for awhile. While Baby was out on her run time, she was like running outside of Gracie’s cage and Gracie didn’t seem to care but when the table were turned Baby was trying to nip and bite and claw at Gracie when Gracie approached Baby in the cage. I tried to not let this continue to keep them both on their way away from the cage area. Thanks for any comments……

[Beka27]

Posted By bunnymama on 07/10/2008 5:28 PM 
I’ll continue to post — I’m now encouraged after last night. I think having them in the cages side by side all day and all night has helped alot. They are not exactly happy to have their freedom gone but it’s just for awhile.

BINGO!

think of it this way.  everytime they are together and then separated overnight, it’s like they are “meeting for the first time” all over again.  you have to force them to be together, but after awhile they will choose to be together.  that’s when you know you’re making progress.  please keep us posted.

[bunnymama]

Okay so I know I am behind in posting and will but …..both buns have their own rooms which only have their scent in them. I am assuming I need to let the other bun into each others room??????? Gracie #2 is still chinning everything in sight and pooping all around Baby #1 in her cage during Gracie’s run time. I am afraid of the urine tho. Gracie is still urinating outside the cage around Baby sitting in her cage at least once a day. Before bonding they were both completely poop dish trained. Thoughts?

[bunnymama]

Sessions are going better. We just had #11. Letting them sniff through the cage bars has helped quite a bit when one is free –every once in awhile they will nip at noses but usuallly it’s been quite friendly. I realized that when I would clean the cages and poop dishes – I was making them too clean (afraid of smells) so I’ve stopped being so obsessive about it and just clear out the poop and hay and debris but leave everything else alone. I’m adding the other buns urine saturated paper crumbles and poop pcs into the other poop dish. We tried using food to get them closer in bonding session, but that didn’t work out –Gracie #2 is a little possessive of food apparently and when she finished hers she went afer Baby #1 to get her leftovers. Poop dishes become an object of Gracies affection tonight in bonding session, she chased Baby away from both poop dishes twice and never cared about that before. Even when Gracie #2 goes after Baby now she normally does not make contact and no fur has been flying recently. Gracie passed right by Baby twice tonight with out either one flinching. We see alot of grooming and Mama snuggles and pets both when I can. Our sessions are only about 30-40 minutes long and Baby #1 (my very nervous little girl) gets too worked up to go much longer. Thier is definetly more trust between the two then before so we are making strides. I do try to control them each a little (keep Baby from charging and Gracie from nipping). Gracie #2 has been running and she did a binky for the first time ever on Saturday night – it was so exciting. So she seems happy and she has even started to eat some greens for me after seeing Baby thru the cage bars eating some. Things seem to be progressing nicely I would have to say. Thanks everyone — I’ll continue to post. RECAP- I’ve had Gracie #2, 5 weeks as of today –I waited just under 4 weeks after spay to start bonding and today is day 11 of bonding session. Carry on Bunny Slaves!

[bunnymama]

Session #14 was last night – although in sessions 12 & 13 we saw a 5 minute grooming of each others face fest. Baby #1 tried to mount Gracie #2 and Gracie was shocked and turned and nipped Baby. Then they did one of those super fast chases in a small tight circle which we broke up – appeared they both wanted to mount at the same time. Last night they stayed away from each other. As usual Gracie #2 nipped Baby 2-3 times and Baby #1 did some mid air jumps away from Gracie which caused a tiny bit of a tussell….think this is what others have said – a step backward. Will try again maybe 2 session today. Will continue to post so others can learn.

Got my binky order yesterday—pretty fast Binky Bunny CA to IL in 5 days – I was impressed. Thanks.

[bunnymama]

Okay so last night was session # 23. Seems we are at a standstill. Once we got Gracie #2 to stop nipping then Baby #1 started nipping at Gracie. Baby will lick Gracie’s eye and then nip on the face somewhere. Last night went better – some chasing and only very light nips. No one got sprayed with water and are sessions are a minimum of 1 hour and can go longer when we can afford the time. Might try a very small bathroom to shake things up or we might start car rides. Will have to research the car ride thing again before we do…..they will be sooooo sweet togther once together but until then its been hard. They have been very nice to each other through the cage bars when one is loose. Have a party every weekend in August and I was so hoping to be done with bonding but I guess not…..

[bunnymama]

Last night was session #27. They have been ignoring each other for several sessions. They do take turns nipping at each other – some times fur comes out time times not. Tried banana on the heads last night –didn’t work. We get some grooming of Baby #1 on Gracie’s #2 face but they then Baby nips and runs. We’ve been in a different room which seemed to help for the first 2 times. We deceided to try the car ride at some time over the weekend. I’ll post how that went and what we did. Wish I had better news but today is the 4 week mark of bonding –brutal – never thought is was this hard or would take this long —I was wrong on both counts. They are always nice to each other through the cage bars now so that is good I guess.

[bunnymama]

Car Ride Session #28 – okay so we got a 15″ x 15″ inch box and put a towel in the bottom. We extended the flaps upward so it would be too tall for them to jump out of. We each took a rabbit and put them in the back of the car in the box. I had not even gone 10 feet and both were scared. We drove around for just under 15 minutes. Both were afraid at first. Baby #1 was putting her head under Gracie’s #2 body. Both were huddled the entire time – one peeped in the box. We has a carrier ready in case any fights broke out. Gracie got use to the movement of the car and seemed unaffected so I started to zig zag a little and that put them right back next to each other. We then took them back to our bonding area (small bathroom) and had high hopes after all the huddling in the car. Baby #1 wanted to cuddle still but Gracie #2 was not in an open space so that didn’t happen. They both sat there dazed and staring like what the heck just happened. We finished the session just under an hour total.

Session #30 we thought would be better but they are just avoiding each other again. When either shows aggression we give them a squirt with the water bottle. Aggression is getting less and less and we’ve not had much fur tufts out in about 4 or 5 days. Once back to their cage area (which has been moved to a bedroom to give them some run space) they look for each other and the scent marking with poop has seemed to subsiide a bit. The bedroom is empty of furniture for the most part and the room is cut in half by a long fence made out of a wooden play pen walls with cardboard pcs woven in between the bars. If we are home then both buns are out in their pen area or one is running free in the house. When we are asleep -both are caged in the same room. If we are working – we are only letting one out of their cage at a time in case they break security and get into the others pen –then they could only nip through cage bars. Gracie will be free in the mornings and Baby in the afternoons within each of their pen areas.

I think Baby #1 is really getting frustrated with being in her cage so much. She jumped right out of her cage through the top opning and then 15 minutes later jumped over the barrier to the bedroom where they stay. She has never done this before so we made the move into the bedroom to give them each some free time within their individual pen areas.

Will post again — we thought the car ride would make a difference and it might have just slightly and we will do another car ride again in a few days.

[Banba Bunnymom]

Watch Baby for how she wants to handle Gracie’s agression, and try to help reinforce her lesson. One of the things that I have learned is that rabbits teach each other lessons about how to behave. My Thisle was okay with being mounted, but wanted That Bunny to stop pulling out her fur. So when he pulled to hard, she got up and moved. So I learned to let her make the first move, to get up, and then I told him “no pull,” released his bite, and pushed his head gently but firmly to the floor. That way she and I were working together to teach him the behavior she wanted.

I lucked out and had an amazingly easy bonding (see the Dream Bonding thread), but my friend did manage to get through a very rocky time, and bonded her bunnies after 7 months of trying. So don’t give up hope, and know that she thinks it was worth all of the effort. My friend says that part of what held her bonding back was getting too involved in breaking up fights. So when I bonded my bunnies, I tried not to worry about the fur coming out until the bunny reacted to it. Then I made a decision to act calmly and consistantly.

I would second the suggestion to try and keep them in contact (at least visual, preferrably with smell) constantly with each other. Every time I seperated mine into different rooms, it was like starting all over again. Quiet time together, without too much mommy oversight, is what brought my little furry kids finally to their bond. I can also recommend the cage swapping and floor cleaning. It works well to decrease the territoriality.

Potty habits should get much better once the bond clicks. Don’t worry about it overmuch, just clean up messes outside of the boxes as soon as possible. My buns were back to good potty habits two days after they bonded.

Good luck with the car rides. I knew that one wouldn’t work with my buns. They both LOVE car rides!

Oh, my buns want me to recommend homemade dried banana chips and blueberries (split the skin to make them smell) as bonding treats (only 2 of each per day). Romane lettuce is also good to for chomping and watching. Also, treats can be given when the buns are in the same area, but in seperate locations. They’ll hear and watch each other eating, which is a good happy activity. They don’t have to be nose-to-nose while they are doing it.

I’m crossing my fingers for your happy bonding. Please keep us updated.

Best Wishes,

Banba

 

[bunnymama]

Thanks Banba for your words of encouragement. I’ve re-read your advice several times and I think we might get too involved breaking up fights as you say. Baby #1 always attacks while on the move but Gracie #2 has only reacted to all of her nips maybe twice. Gracie #2 has pretty much stopped nipping at this point. I think they both want to be top bunny but Baby #1 really doesn’t have it in her (except bossing me and my husband around). Baby is afraid of getting nipped and really wants to be friends but has been nipped so many times she is afraid. Gracie #2 is a cool black cucumber – not much rattles her and not for long.

It seems that we have been at a stand still for about 2 weeks now. No moving forward or backward that much either.

Their cages are right next to each other, long side to long side in the same room. But unless the get up on their back legs they can’t see each other over the cardboard sections in the playpen walls. They are really together in the same room now unless one is out for run time for a few hours.

We’ve forced them both in the haybox and petted them both while they were next to each other and they tolerate it but then Baby #1 runs off as soon as she can. Okay so tonight maybe we don’t interfere so much but Gracie #2 has a habit of chasing Baby #1 which I don’t let go on for very long —maybe I’ll see exactly what they do. Thanks –will post again.

[Banba Bunnymom]

If you want to stop Gracie from chasing Baby, then you have to wait until fighting is acutally happening to make the correction. It’s a lot more difficult than it sounds, because you want to act at the moment you predict what is going to happen. Instead you have to wait until the buns actually are causing each other pain (i.e. you can see the whites of their teeth). If you can wait it out and not act unless something bad *is actually happening at that moment,*after a while, Gracie’s going to peter out at the end of the chase. If Gracie is really scaring Baby badly (and you are concerned about Baby reacting badly), then, after correction, just seperate them a foot or so apart and return to group petting for a bit, then let them go again.  I always ended my sessions with good words and group petting, so the last impression of being in direct contact with each other was positive.

It’s very good that Gracie has stopped nipping. It means that she is interested in being friends. And Baby’s running away means that she is uncertain more than she is angry. Trust is easier to build than anger is to conquer. Calm time together will help Baby.

Avoiding each other is actually good behavior, not bad, so don’t get discouraged when it happens. If you’ll watch a while, you’ll see that buns avoiding each other are secretly peeking/listening and are getting used to each other’s presence. Even after bonding, you will find your buns flopped in different parts of the room from each other, but still enjoying the company.

Best Wishes,

Banba

 

 

[bunnymama]

Session 31 – so we followed Banba’s advice. At first they just avoided each other. Baby#1 sat next to me as usual and Gracie came over to get petted. We went a little longer than the hour since we could tell they were just waiting to get picked up and taken back upstairs. Unfortunately I was on a phone call when we hit the hour mark but my husband was in charge and they did a little chasing, scuffling and Gracie #2 did some pushing with her nose into Baby’s #1 hind end. No huge break throughs but we might be on the right track. Session was about 1 hour 15 minutes. Will continue to post and I might try even a longer session tonight 1.5 hours perhaps…..

[bunnymama]

Session #32 – Well tried not to interfere and that didn’t work out so well for Baby #1. Apparently as soon as Gracie #2 realized the water bottle wasn’t pointed at her she became aggressive by chasing and nipping at Baby #1. I had to stop Gracie several times. At one point I couldn’t get Gracie to stop and had to actually pick Baby up to hault Gracie’s aggressions. Baby of course was pretty scared and freaked, to the point when I tried to pet her to calm her down she bit me. Gracie had pulled out about 4 small tufts of Baby’s fur and one huge one (end of the night). After a little over an hour I couldn’t take any more and ended the session. I did do group petting for about 20 minutes at the half way mark but that didn’t seem to help much except when I was petting.

Any suggestions? I can’t allow Gracie #2 to terrorize Baby #1 — it breaks my heart. Tomorrow (Thurs) both my husband and I are available to do a car ride but I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions to keep Gracie from chasing and nippin. This is exactly what we experienced in our first sessions and I feel like I’m, back to square one. After the session I put them both back in ther pens within their room with no run time to just keep them together. Perhaps the run time at night is hurting the bonding – they go separate ways for a few hours and have no contact. Baby was dragging her food out of her cage so that she could eat it without seeing Gracie in her cage. Baby’s whole personality changed after the session – she sat as far away from Gracie as she could within her pen area. Help!!!!!!!!!!Thanks.

[bunnymama]

Session #34 1st Car Ride – both scared, in a box that is 15 x15 x 18 tall. with a towel in the bottom of the box. Both scared and eventually snuggle. Baby hides her head under Gracie several times. Once in the bonding area seem not to be so threatened by each other. They contiune to avoid each other but no major issues.

Session #35 -no car ride not so good. Alot of chasing and nipping –thought they’d be better than this after that ride.

Session #36 2nd Car Ride – same routine. They were scared and snuggling at first but then moved away from each other as they got use to the movement so I had to swerve and zig zag a little to get them back next to each other. Once again no major incidents once into neutral bonding area.

Session #37 no car ride and naughty Gracie #2. For no reason just leaped after Baby #1 and gave her a big nip — good size chunck of fur out of poor sweet Baby. Gracie got sprayed and didn’t seem to offended by that. Think it’s back to the car ride again for us tonight.

[bunnymama]

Session #35 – started out with a 22 minute car ride (think the extra time really made a diiference) and then into the bonding area of about another 55 minutes. We left them in the box (for car rides) once we got back into bonding room -they were both shaking (poor little things). They just stayed huddled together for about 7 or 8 minutes before they realized where they were and wanted out of the box. Once out, Gracie #2 ran one way and Baby #1 the other. But then suddenly Baby #1 went to over by Gracie and sat next to her (within 8 inches maybe). I went over and petted and talked sweetly to both. They both stayed totally relaxed for about 13 minutes with me petting. Baby #1 hopped around and ate. But Gracie never eats right after a car ride. Gracie chased Baby once but NO nippin from either one. Hey this might just be working. Also their cages have been much cleaner the last few days too….HMMMM maybe this will work….will keep you posted other bunny slaves!

[MarkBun]

Sorry, I haven’t read back with everything. Have you tried the vacuum cleaner? Whenever Gracie goes to chase or fight with Baby, turn on the vacuum. Changes my bun’s attitudes in a heartbeat.

[MooBunnay]

It sounds like stressing them is the key to getting them to bond, you are definitely on the right track with the car rides, and like Markusdark mentioned, running the vacuum cleaner around the cage where they are being bonded will also stress them and help distract them from nipping at each other. Congratulations on being so patient! You are doing a very good job

Have you tried giving them a big pile of greens to munch on during a bonding session? Sometimes the eating can help them to be more social with each other. Also, this may be going back a few steps and I might have missed it, but are you switching their litterboxes every couple of days? Continuing to force them to adjust to each other’s scents will hopefully help things progress.

[bunnymama]

Session #36 – #43 — Well we normally start out in the car for about 20 minutes. They cuddle, snuggle and hide thier head under each other. Perfect. Then we do a bonding session right after. Gracie seems motion sick and just literally lays still for about 20 minutes and will then move around some. She never eats any more during bonding (I think do to the motion sickness). They seem to be getting better but contiune to take turns nipping each other. More Baby nipping or attempting to nip then Gracie. Once back home, we leave them in the box for a bit before taking them out – once they realize they are not in the car anymore.

Baby is not afraid of the vacumn but Gracie is. Since Gracie is motion sick she won’t eat during bonding at all so the big pile of food has never worked even when we weren’t doing car rides. I switch them into each others cage about every week – long story but this is the best I can do.

It seems that Gracie #2 wants to be friends but Baby #1 is just so nervous with her “fly by bite attemtps” that this has just dragged on. It literally took Baby #1 about a year for her to feel totally comfotable with us so we know how nervous and afraid she can be. They seem to be a little more comfortable with each other.

Session #44 – figured we had to change something. So we took them for a 20 minute car ride and then a marathon bonding session in a new makeshift area – I am talking 6 hours here people. It went pretty well, for the most part. Alot of “fly by nips” by Baby #1 ( she attempts to nip but never usually makes contact). Then within the last 15 minutes it became a chasing, nippin free for all. They both got sprayed with water. Up until then we thought we were making progress. Baby would come close (within a foot or two) of Gracie and sit or lay. Since Gracie didn’t eat her grape Baby did and their faces were literally 3 inches apart. I petted them both the whole time without incident. We can’t do another marathon bonding session till next Sunday. Meanwhile we will continue bonding sessions and car rides when both of us are home. Any suggestions still welcome at this point. Thanks.

[MarkBun]

I would say that the longer bonding sessions are the key. They need to know that they’re going to be around one another for a long time and have to come to deal with it.

I’m not sure what your bonding setup looks like but do you have obstacles in the way? If you break up a rectangular pen by putting an extra piece midway between the two or make the pen L shaped, the chasing tends to be cut short due to the fact that there are objects the running away bunny can interpose between the two of them. If Gracie 2’s heart really isn’t into attacking the bun, it might just be enough to get her out of a direct line.

[bunnymama]

Thanks Markusdark for your reply. My bonding area is a rectangle and usually me or my husband are in the middle with other things like hay box, poop dish, the binky bunny carrot shapped basket, food, etc. I think longer bonding sessions is the only thing we havn’t done. Last night I did take the cardboard out of the slots between the make shift wall (old wooden play pen pcs, wired together to make one long fence at almost 10 feet) and I replaced it with a heavy duty plastic hardware cloth. I wired the pcs together and then put duct tape over any sharp edges. Well Baby #1 thought that Gracie would get her so right away she ran into her cage jumped up on her shelf and was quivering. I calmed her down and got her to come out and then showed her the hardware cloth – I could see how she was then relieved. We let them both in their pens (not locked in the their cages) all night and this morning. During the night we saw them each sitting next to each other within a foot apart with the fence in between them. I knew if they could see each other all the the time it would help – so glad I did that last night.

Sessions 45, 46 & 47. More of the same. You think its going good until one of them nips the other. Gracie #2 took the biggest fur chunk ever out of Baby #1 in session 45 and I was shocked. We might try peanut butter on forheads to encourage licking tonight after the car ride. We will try to go as long as we can in the sessions. Thanks.

[MarkBun]

Maryann and Dono were basically at the same stage you are at and I couldn’t get them over that hurdle without professional help. Marcy penned both of them in together 24/7 and it seemed to work. I am not suggesting that though, but you have reached a point where you want to make sure that they see each other and can get close to one another 24/7.

[bunnymama]

Thanks Marcusdark…I’ve wondered if letting them both out of their pens for run time is actually doing more harm then good. They go into another part of the house for 1-2 hours at time and don’t see each other at all. Then I switch who is out and it can be another 1-2 hours apart. What is your thoughts on this. Meanwhile…

Session #48 they were calmer, sat closer without too much incident. No one sprayed with water. Baby #1 does her famous fly by nip attempt but never makes contact. Gracie #2 sits there like – what are you doing you crazy rabbit. Will try peanut butter on heads tonight. I’ve got to make this work – I’ve promised Gracie’s family I would….they do seem to look for and watch each other more. Gracie #2 always has but I think I see signs that Baby is now watching Gracie too. Thanks…

[MarkBun]

I wouldn’t allow them any playtime where they weren’t in each other’s sight. You want them to know that the other will always be there. If they think they can be alone, they’ll keep trying to do so.

[bunnymama]

This just posted as a new thread for immediate advise. Will post any replies here also:

My thread is Bonding 2 female rabbits contiues, however this morning while we were at work. I think the new rabbit Gracie #2 pulled the screw out of the wall, moved the gate over and a rabbit chasin and nipping free for all ensued. I am trying to bond 2 females and are on day 52 and this happens. Neither one are injuired or hurt (that we can tell so far) but there was literally both of their fur all over the room and in cages. A long chase must have ensured from what I can tell. Huge fur clumps of Baby #1 and smaller clumps of Gracie #2 everywhere. When we came home, Baby was cowering in her cage. Gracie – just like business as usual -nothing ever bothers her. Then Gracie ran and hid and wouldn’t come out either. Baby did hop out of her cage long enough to show me where Gracie got in (she is a very smart little rabbit – she amazes me all the time). When I tried to calm her down Baby keep making really strange almost pig like snortin noises (she has never done before). We finally got Gracie into her cage and she was quite skiddish now too. We left them, cages next to each other, each locked within their cage -no freedom right now.

NOW WHAT DO I DO? Tonight just do bonding session as normal. I’m totally defeated and just want to give up –this has been so stressful I can hardly take it –I know I’m a whimp because I love my little Baby #1 so much I can’t stand to see her hurt or scared. I don’t think they settled the fight over domiance yet either. They were both in their own pens when we got home. We were gone about 3 hours total and just happened to come home for lunch a little early. Upt to this point, they are still nipping and chasing each other during bonding. I had recently given them total view of each other which I thought was helping. They would lay next to each other with the gate in between them. But now I have no idea what they will do or what I should do. HELP PLEASE.

[bunnymama]

Replies to other thread -fighting all morning need help

Reply from Osprey – Wow, that sounds like a nasty scene. I am glad that both of them are OK. Since bunnies are creatures of habit, I think you should go ahead with your regular bonding session today, and be ready to intercede right away if they start to fight. I know that bonding is very stressful on you, but you don’t want them to remember the fight, you want them to remember the pattern and the schedule. Good luck with these two. I know that bonding two females can be very hard.

Reply from Marcusdark – It is possible that after this big brawl that they have worked out some of their issues. I have known more than one person who has stuck the two rabbits in a large cage/condo and let them work it out between them.

Do keep up with the bonding. I would actually suggest making the bonding area smaller – like a total of 8 square feet maximum.

Bunny Mama updates – Session # 52 first one after all morning fight:
Well not good. We took them for a 15 minute car ride. Gracie sat still for the next 20 minutes. Then Gracie #2 went halfway across the bonding area toward Baby #1 and Baby just tore off and started the fight. I got over there as quickly as I could to break it up. I would say that Gracie got the worst part.

Then they were still for about 30-40 minutes. Then Gracie #2 was heading toward Baby, turned and ran sideways and approached Baby from a different angle and when Baby saw Gracie right there – it started. A total free for all. Up on hind legs, biting, nipping, moving as if they were one like a tornado, rolling on the ground a little too. I could hardly get the dust pan in between them. Nothing stops them now except that dust pan. It went on longer (by seconds)then I wanted but I couldn’t get them to stop and couldn’t get the dustpan between them until I grabbed Gracie and pushed her away. Even after separated they still wanted a pc of each other. No blood or sores that I could see.

Then once back in the pens, doing that running thing from side to side with the mimicking each others moves – sort of like the I Love Lucy episode where Lucy and a Marx brother are pretending to be in a mirror and mimick each other’s moves. This is good as I understand it.

Tonight we are going to try holding them each in place while petting them next to each other Will try turning on the dust buster to stop them from fighting but I don’t think they will care. I won’t scare or chase them with it, just want the noise.

Session # 53 – Well last night went much better and here is why:
We did a 10 minute car ride. Once in the bonding area, we had one little scuffle and we could tell that they both wanted to just rip into each other. We were not going to let that happen.
First we tried the side by side petting holding them both forceable down. We petted their noses and backs until they relaxed. We let them break away after about 4 minutes.
Then we put them nose to nose, same petting on noses and backs keeping them held into place.
And next we put them side by side with head to butt and butt to head making sure no nipping ensued. This one scared me so only about 3 minutes.
We let them hop around a bit.
Then my husband man-handled them until they were next to each other -butts up against a wall and facing him. He stroked and petted noses, ears, backs until they were like limp dolls. No more forcing them down. They started out about 6 inches away from each other and then we could see Gracie leaning into Baby. A good sign in deed. By the end they were totally next to each other. We ended the session with treats but neither one wanted them so we wisked them back to their pens before any trouble started.
We didn’t use the dust buster to scare them so don’t know if that works or not to stop a fight. The other thing we are going to try is if they are bad and nip or fight we are going to pick them both back up, tell them bad girl no bite, put them in the box (used for car rides) and walk them around a little before going back into the bonding area ( we found that just walking them around in the box is enough to imitate a car ride). They are laying or sitting near each other at most times now with the gate between them. I see this as very positive. They watch each other too. I have stopped all run times which was away from each other. Will resume once they are bonded. This has helped to that they are together 24/7 like Marcusdark suggested.

We realize that our forcing them may not be the miracle bullet but we felt it imperative to have a good session last night after 2 days of trauma. We’ll see how they do tonight. I am on my own after today since my husband will be out of town for 2 days. Wish me luck.

[MarkBun]

Sometimes man handling is what is required. The HRS teaches ‘box bonding’ where you put them both into a large litter box, put them side by side, cheek to cheek and pet them continuously for around 60 seconds. Then you take a break from the petting and see what they’ll do. If they begin to get uppity, you push their heads back down next to each other and do the agressive petting again.

This, however, didn’t work for Maryann and Dono as evident from some of the vids you can find in the thread in my sig. But it is what they swear by.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

^^ I did that when bonding and found it worked quite well

[bunnymama]

Session # 55 – things going okay when they are manhandled and put next to each other and petted. When you stop petting they are looking at each other, stretching thier heads in front of each other to get licked, but licks never come from or to either of them. The last half of the session we let them just be by themselves in the bonding area without one of us in there. They just sorta looked at each other. Gracie #2 thought about approaching Baby #1 and then changed her mind. Session was about 45 minutes long. Another good session…..
We are now at the 8 week mark on bonding……

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Have you tried ‘shopping cart’ bonding?

[Beka27]

i also did the forced snuggling in the litterbox and after many days, it worked quite well. do you have a long weekend? another option would be to keep them together in the small space all day long. if they start to scuffle, separate for a minute, and then let go. you’d have to have nothing planned for the whole day tho. once they realize that the other is not going away, they just have to get along. even if they don’t LOVE each other, they have to get along.

[bunnymama]

Hey Kokaneeandkaylua – what is shopping cart bonding?

We’ve done 2 more sessions since my last post 35 and 45 minutes. Both the same without car rides. The just take turns going after each other and nipping and pulling out fur tufts after we’ve have done forced petting and snuggling with them next to each other. They are fine and then the nipping ensues. Seems like they take turns every other day they nip the other. One day it’s Baby #1 nipping and then next day it’s Gracie #2 nipping.

[Beka27]

it sounds like they’re both trying very hard to be dominant. i wonder if this is going to possibly need outside intervention?

[bunnymama]

Alot has gone on since my last post. Over the long Labor day weekend Baby #1 had a small blood spot on her leg. When I looked at it at the time it was a small little blood spot and I didn’t think much of it. Within 2 hours Baby had ripped into her entire leg from her armpit all the way down to her paw. I put some Neosporin (orginial) on it. I heard this was safe and she just kept biting it – not licking but biting it. Now it is bloody and looks awful.
By Tuesday it was a mess. Well I couldn’t determine if she had caught it on something, if it happened in bonding but she would not leave it alone. Baby has shown some nervous behavior within the first 4 months of getting her – she is an over groomer and consequently licks away patches of her fur, but this was different.
So to the vet she went, got a shot and some liquid med to administer by syringe by mouth twice a day. The vet said it appeared to be coming from the inside out! Like an old wound festering or something. He cleaned it well and we go back in a week. Needless to say no bonding tonight. Just can’t figure out how she got this – I have always obessessed over this little rabbit since the day I got her.

Sessions 60-61-63-64-65-66 all pretty much the same. They literally take turns nipping each other. Sometimes they will each nip on the same night otherwise they rotate the nips. one day Gracie next day Baby. I am past 9 weeks of bonding right now. At a standstill. Any suggestions?

Might try putting them in the car ride box when one of them nips. Maybe I’ll put both of them in it and then walk them around a bit. They don’t like to be carried around in that box together because they fear they are going to the car for a ride. In session 66 last night Gracie took about the biggest chunk of fur out of Baby to date! Maybe being put into the box and then walked will get the message through not to nip. Baby has been out of sorts since on the meds and not herself so that be adding to the situation. Have to admit I’ve been thinking about the washing machine ride —never thought I would be but I am thinking about it.

Just got our Binky Bunny order – can’t wait to take it home and give the girls some new toys and treats.

I have talked to a bonding expert from my local House Rabbit Society. She says I am almost there – and recommends when I think the time is right to put them in thier permanent room together 24/7 over a weekend with constant monitoring. But right now with the nipping every day I know I am not there yet. If we can go a few sessions without nips then I’ll put them together 24/7. They normally just sit away from each other for the session, one will explore around and the other just watches. Gracie #2 is much more cautious about approaching Baby#1 then she use to since Baby nips back now. Piles of food does not work, they have both stopped taking treats in the sessions now too. Not much seems to be working or helping. I have mixed up the things within the bonding area. Maybe it’s time to change bonding areas again.

[Beka27]

i think you should let Baby heal before proceeding. i’m going to go ahead and email the other CLs to have them give some input.

[BinkyBunny]

Well, from the most recent descriptions, I wouldn’t put them together right now. I also think Baby needs to heal first. These wounds can also turn into abscesses and having Baby in a stress free environment will help her fight any infection that might happen with this wound. I know this is not what you want to do right now since you’ve worked so hard, but obviously their nipping is worse than first thought (unless baby got injured another way somehow)

Was there white stuff coming out of it? If so, maybe what happened is an old wound from a nip may have turned into an abscess – an infection that starts underneath the skin at the wound and pushes it’s way out and can even attach to muscle and bone.   Baytril is the most common antibiotic, so I wonder if that is what you received.

I also recommend taking step back right now and making sure Baby’s wound heals properly.

Maybe in the meantime you can use stunt doubles, and switch litterboxes so they are still part of each others life somehow. With the stunt doubles, i brush the hair of one bunny, and then I take the hair from the brush and put it in a little slit that I cut from the toy bunny (aka: stunt double), and put the stunt double into the other bunny’s cage. (I do that for both bunnies)

Does that make sense?

I am so sorry to hear about that nasty wound! Keep a close eye on it and if you see pus, goopy stuff and/or swelling undeneath, get back to the vet. Sending healing vibes!

[MooBunnay]

Did you tell the bonding expert about the wound? The reason I am asking is because I have never heard any recommend working on bonding with an injured rabbit – it can be very dangerous if they get into a fight. If it were me, I would stop trying to bond them until the poor little bun heals, and even longer if her nevous habits continued because the bonding stress could be adding to her nervousness.

[MarkBun]

Everytime they get nippy, put them in the box and take them for a walk. Put them back down and when they nip again, into the box. I’m not exactly sure how often Marcy did it but there were a few trips on top of the dryer while Maryann and Dono were at her place. If it is a big fight, take them for a car ride.

The important thing is NOT to seperate them when the fight. They will associate the other bun leaving with biting them so it will become a learned behavior. They need to know that when they nip, not only will the other bun NOT go away, but something ‘terrible’ will happen when they do.

[bunnymama]

Thanks all for your replies….Baby has been much beter, her skin on her leg is now a pinkish (healing with new skin) instead of a bloody red. The fur is still missing of course but will grow back. She is not biting it only licking some times (not constantly). We are still giving her the shot of liquid med twice per day by mouth with syringe —which is always a challenge but she and we are getting better at it. She goes back to vet in 2 days.

Session 67 last night went pretty well. I put them in the box, walked them around a bit and then put them into the bonding area. As soon as I put them down they started but only for a second. Then Gracie #2 approached Baby #1 and Baby did a “fly by nip” wihtout contact (but the intent was there) and I told her no bite, picked her up, put her in the box, picked up Gracie and put her in the box. For the first time Baby #1 appeared to be be nippin lightly at Gracie #2. They have never misbehaved in the box before ever. So told Baby no bite be a nice girl and gave the box a little shake and swirl which then stopped all nips and then they were snugglin again. I walked them around for maybe a minute. Back into the bonding area and it was like they were in shock. Like what the heck just happened – a double box ride!. They stayed apart for awhile, then Gracie cautiously approaced Baby – the did a nose to nose and broke away without incident. Then another nose to nose with no incident. Then I ended the session. Went about 1 hour to 1 hour 5 minutes. Not too bad….THANKS MARCUS — I’m gonna keep doing the box thing after nipping. I’ll keep posting…….have a nice day bunny slaves.

[bunnymama]

Okay over the past week things were getting better. I was putting them in the box and walking (with a gentle shake and swirl if needed) whenever they nipped each other while bonding. Baby #1 was seen for a follow up by the vet and taken off meds. She was all good again.

Sessions #68 – #71 went pretty well – we were excited, 2 days in a row without a bonding incident. Then it happened.

Yes, if you ever think, “gee I wonder if she/ he could or might…” THE ANSWER IS YES THEY WILL!!!! DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO STOP THEM FROM GETTING AT EACH OTHER, EVERYTHING.

So during bonding session #71 (yes over 10 weeks now) Baby was hopping up on things and trying to get out of the bonding area. Gracie #2 was studying Baby quite closely I have learned. And yes you’ve guessed it. Later that night Gracie #2 jumped onto the cinderblock (holding the gate up between the pens). Yes JUMPED onto the top and then over into Baby’s #1 pen. Luckily my husband woke up and only 4 or 5 fur tufts had been pulled when we reached them. So if you ever wondered if they can do something, assume yes and prevent them from doing it. Gracie up until this point didn’t even know she could jump. A large metal stock pot and lid now sits on the top of the cinderblock.

Our new rule is they can only both be out of their cages and in thier pens if we are home and will be on that floor of the house. From now on we take no more chances. At night – one is loose in thier pen, other caged. That is it — no more incidents we can’t afford any more setbacks — I am over 10 weeks on bonding now and need to get this done — but we are close — I can just sense it from them.

Next 3 bonding sessions were rough after this. We kept putting them in the box and walking them around (with the shake and swirl) – I think they are finally getting the message. If we nip, we get the box treatment. Session #73 was much better. All recent sessions have been 1 hour in length. Once back in their room, they will run and play with the gate in between them. They chase a play usually a little after every session. Most of the time they will be laying/sitting in very close proximity (within 2-3 feet) with the gate in between them. Will lkeep posting…..

[bunnymama]

Sessions 74 – -77 went really well – no fights just nose to nose and then they would hop away from each other. Maybe just maybe we are getting there.

Sessions 78-79-80 – well so much for good sessions. 3 days of naughty bunnies. After each fight, I put them both in the box and walk them around swaying and swirling telling them “no bite”. They paid no attention to each other outside of the bonding area at all on these days. Just ignored each other while in their side by side pens.

Session 81 – had some left over agression to get out apparetnly – we changed them into a new bonding area – same room but different corner of the room. They fought 3 times in a row and took a ride in the box twice right after each outbreak. In case you are not realizing I am past 11 weeks on bonding now. It;s brutal. They fight and then they go in that box and are all snuggly with each other and then the fight again once out of that box. Now they are sitting by each other, eating at the same times like they use to. I can only hope they are back on track to become friends. Will keep on posting.

[BinkyBunny]

It IS brutal. I have been there. It can be exhausting!

The “new” bonding area – do feel like the room they are in is neutral enough? Is this a place they are comfortable with being in on their own? Would each of them be able to consider it their territory?

Also, you might try starting out with the “stress method”, (carrying in the box). Then try you best to keep them calm – pet them when they are in the neutral territory. They might have begun to associate being together with just plain stress and fighting. It’s very hard once they are used to fighting each time they see each other to stop this.

Check out this link as there are some scenarios in this that seem to be similar, and there are tips about how to transition from the stress methods back to having them back down on the floor together. http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/introductions.html

[bunnymama]

Thanks Binky – I think they are in that pattern of fighting each time. It seems that Gracie #2 understands that if she nips she goes for a box ride. Baby #1 isn’t getting it and she contiunes to nip over and over and over. They are very light nips hardly ever pulling out any of Gracie’s fur. We’ve gone back to forced petting – Gracie ok Baby stressed. I think Baby has been nipped by Gracie for so long and so many times that Baby thinks I’ll nip Gracie before Graice nips me. Bonding area is in the same room as before – just new corner of the room. We have the same toys in there I just move them around in different places – have 3 poop dishes in there and lots of hay and pellets.

Sessions 82-83-84 more of the same, both nipping amd both getting more box rides. Forced petting may be helping some. But we have to break the nipping cycle with Baby #1. In thinking back on it, it took Baby about 6 months to trust us so I guess I have at least a few more weeks to go.
Not sure what else to try or where else to try in the house. We’ll keep at it. BUT IF ANYONE THINKS THIS BOND WILL NEVER WORK PLEASE LET ME KNOW. Have a good day bunny slaves where ever you are…..

[Beka27]

you might want to (or need to) take a break. for you as much as for them. there’s nothing wrong with stopping for a couple weeks (altho continuing to switch them betw/ cages every day). or… is professional bonding an option for you where they would get boarded somewhere for a couple weeks?

[BinkyBunny]

I agree – it might be “break time” to rethink your strategy as well as give them some time to settle down. It’s not like they’ve progressed so much that it would be throwing away even a decent partial bond.

I think giving them AND yourself a break can also help relax bunnies AND humans, and you can come back refreshed too. I am also all for finding professional bonders too because they really know how to read even the slightest body language and know when to intervene before fights break out. I think what happens to the rest of us who are still honing our skills with body language is that the bonding can make us “hover” and feel “tense” because we are watching for that “lunge” and those “nips” but we may not recognize all the subtle behaviors that either need encouragement and praise (if positive) and/or need intervening prior to full aggression.

I don’t think you should give up just yet because there are still things you can try –

Bonding is difficult because what may work for one pair may be totally off base with another, so no matter what advice you get, it may or may not work for your pair. You just sort of have to try things and you’ll begin to see what works and what doesn’t.

For example, one pair may fight over food, while another pair will settle down and stop their tiffs to eat together. Or one pair may forget about their tiffs if they have things to explore, and distract them – like chew toys, but another pair may actually fight over these things (litterboxes can also be something to fight over). Some pairs may fight even more with stress bonding – the stress itself causes fighting – though this is unusual as stress bonding usually helps bond, Bailey and Rucy would actually fight during car rides or other stress methods. So you give different things a chance, and stick with what works and move on from what doesn’t.

Try getting them used to each other’s scent without having them meet face to face. Switch them in each other’s pens, like Beka suggested, or switch litterboxes. Get some “stunt doubles”. (can you refresh my memory – are they currently housed near each other?)

Then when you do start again start in a complete neutral territory – Bathtubs (empty of course) work for some – just make sure it hasn’t been cleaned with chemicals recently.

So work step back, get them used to each other’s scent where they can’t be aggressive with each other, and if you don’t have a professional bonder near you, then work out a plan. I would make sure not to do anything similar so that they could not associate with the past behaviors. It may be somewhat ingrained. Find a brand new place completely neutral place – the bathroom, kitchen floor, a laundry room – some place they never go. Also, if you find they are territorial over food, toys, etc, then don’t give them things to fight over. If they bond over treats, or at least the don’t fight over treats, then pet them and give them treats when they are together – even if it’s three minutes for the first session (and you may have to do 3 minutes sessions for the a week straight)do whatever you can to help them rebuild a “positive” association.

[bunnymama]

Thanks for the recent replies. We are going to regroup and take a break from bonding for the next week. We need it and the buns need it. We will try something completely different when we start up again on Friday or Saturday. Also Baby #1 had a good size bald spot from where Gracie #2 had pulled out some fur. So in typical Baby nervous nellie fashion she has managed to irritate the skin, making it red and increase the bald spot to triple it’s orginial size. Crazy little bunny – she has always been nervous and a heavy groomer. Take care bunny slaves I’ll be back in the bonding saddle next weekend.

[bunnymama]

Okay we took 8 days off of bonding. It was nice for everyone and every bunny too.

Session # 85 We tried the top of the bed. Didn’t work too well since Baby #1 jumps up and off the bed all the time when free. So you guessed it -she just jumped right off. We put her back on several times all within about 2 and a half minutes. They passed by each other – no incident. We tried to give them banana (their favorite) but they didn’t care. Session went just under 3 minutes.

Seesion #86 tried the bed again – Baby#1 kept jumping down and off the bed. She kept getting under the bed even tho it was blocked. Deteremined this was not going to work either – time tp regroup again.

Later that night tried a new area – laundry room . For the first 2 minutes they were curious. Then within the first 3 minutes Baby #1 nipped Gracie #2 for no reason — it was’t a hard nip – sort of a “fly by nip” trying to scare Gracie – well Gracie isn’t scared. We went 12 minutes and Baby #1 had did 3 fly by nips at Gracie — she isn’t forceful enough to convince Gracie she should be top bunny and so Gracie still thinks she should also be the top bunny. After seeing Baby’s demeanor during this session – it became clear to us that she is not ready to bond with Gracie and she is just not going to.

In thinking back on when we got Baby #1 two years ago it took her 6 months before she stopped running from us and a year before she would lay and let us do whatever to her without freaking out. We’ve determined that we need to give Baby #1 more time to get use to Gracie #2 and trust her. We will keep them in the side by side pens and I’ll give them both run time every night in different parts of the house. Every once in a while we might try a session to see if Baby is ready. Otherwise we plan on holding off till after Jan 1st. i’ve spoken to a HRS member who has done 2 bonds and has been a foster for quite awhile and she thinks we are making a good decision at this point.

I also think that Baby#1 is jealous of Gracie #2. Whenever I’m near Gracie, Baby watches me like a hawk and then I always go back to Baby one more time and pet and talk to her. She is my sweet little girl. I love both of the buns and they are both part of our family and some how I will make this work eventually. I think Baby will come around in time.

DON’T DELETE THIS THREAD — WE WILL POST ANY DEVELOPMENTS AND WILL BE BACK AT THE BONDING THING JAN 1ST. Take care bunny slaves.

[BinkyBunny]

Don’t worry, we don’t delete threads. We will always be able to find it and respond to it (which will bring it current) even if it’s archived. You can use the search to find it or you can bookmark this for future use. I am.

Ooops, I pushed submit too soon:

I also wanted to say that I think it’s a good idea to wait.   I believe that you did the right thing by observing your bunnies, and figure out what may work best.  I always say what may work for one, may not work for another, that’s why observation of your own bunnies and trying to understand their unique characteristics is key.  So good job!

 

[bunnymama]

Quick Update – we stopped all bonding a few weeks ago and had another breach in security – #5. To make a long story short they met under a bed and it wasn’t good. Although they were stopped pretty quickly, they had to be pryed apart. Apparently they are still not ready to bond and for 2-3 days afterwards they were not themselves – seemed to be afraid the other one would get them.  I do fully intend to try bonding again in early Jan and if doesn’t work, I’ll seek a professional bunny bonder. But meanwhile does anyone have an opinion if it would do harm if I separted them into separate bedrooms until Jan.?  Right now a bedroom is divided in half and they each get a half of the room…..

For binkybunny — love the new store — Gracie loves her bunny maze and they both love the carrot shaped baskets!  Keep up the good work of providing us with fun treats and toys for our buns!

Bunny Mama

[Beka27]

this is just my opinion… since you’ve had such a hard time at it, i think it would be a good idea to put them in different rooms for now. it’s not like there’s any real progress you will be “undoing” by moving them… this might give them time to become more secure and then they can be reintroduced in the future. this is where it can get tricky tho, can you move them BOTH out of where the final bonded location will be? this way over the next few months, neither will have possession of that space? and they can both be brought in together.

[bunnymama]

Thanks Beka27 – no I can’t keep them both out of the final space…I have 2 spare bedrooms and would put each in one bedroom alone for awhile. But one of those bedrooms has to be the final bonded place…..

[bunnymama]

Happy New Year to all. Since we put up a dog gate in the hallway and Baby #1 and Gracie #2 now get to see each other again – we thought we’d wait to bond in Feb since the first few times they saw each other –they were fighting thru the gate. We bought 2 bunny harnesses to try with bonding for better control during bonding sessions. So we will try again mid Feb. Meanwhile my husband said to me (after reading our local Rabbit Soceity Newletter) yeah what if we got 2 more rabbbits – one for Baby and one for Gracie. I said are you nuts -these two won’t bond, he said no two MALES -one for each of them then we could keep each pair in a different room and keep the pairs separated. It’s a crazy idea. Post any thoughts on this please. Meanwhile have a nice Jan and I’ll be back on in Feb.
Bunny Mama

[BinkyBunny]

It’s not a crazy idea as long as you completely figure in and are fine with the possible future vet bills, costs etc. for four. Not that you haven’t already figured that in, but I know that when I actually entertain the idea of getting another bunny, my husband just has to mention vet bills and it stops me dead in my tracks. I think that’s due to the fact that Bailey had many medical problems with e.cuniculi, and Rucy has had medical problems along with her ongoing teeth problems so the vet bills are also ongoing.  Thank goodness, Jack has always been healthy.  (knocking on wood now)

If the financial part is not a worry for you, then I think your best chance to have two bonded pairs instead of 4 separate bunnies is to take Baby and Gracie bunny dating to your local House Rabbit Society. They also might be able to help you bond your two gals. Many HRS chapters offer that service.

Keep us updated!

[Beka27]

nice to hear from you again!

i’ll ditto BB! it’s not a crazy idea… you could do it. there are things to consider… money and space in your home mostly. physically caring and cleaning up after two separate pairs should not differ much timewise as two single separate buns…

also keep in mind however that the thrid bun would need to be housed separately while you bond. you could take one girl bunny dating and get her a mate first, get them bonded… and then move onto bonding the second girl…. or you could try introducing the single girl into the bonded pair a few months after the initial bond. some things to think about…

[bunnymama]

Okay so thought we’d try to bond these two crazy females one more time. But two weeks ago at the “gate” there was the two of them clawing, biting, boxing and just carrying on like they hated each other! So WE WILL NOT TRY TO BOND THESE TWO FEMALES ANY MORE.

But to make a long story short I was put in touch with the Red Door Shelter on the north side of Chicago and they have a bunny bonder there named Toni and we took Baby down yesterday for her first “dates”. As most of you know, the rabbit has to pick the mate not the owner. After an hour long car ride Baby #1 was pretty scared and when put in the pen she was just checking things out. She met with 3 males and 1 timid female –lets say the female date didn’t even last 1 minute before Baby #1 showed signs of aggression. Her first male suitor was Jude who was recently altered and jumped right on her and began to hump. Baby was tolerant but then ran away from him and stayed away from him – he seemed frisky to me. Then came suitor number two Dino who she seemed to have the best reaction to. He mounted her and she again was fine, they went nose to nose but nothing clicked. Then came suitor three Stan Lee. He was aggressive and nipping and so he was taken out pretty fast. So no love connection for Baby this time but when they get more males we will try again. Also Baby needed to understand why she was there = that we were not just leaving her there which might had been what she thought. She did much better during the whole thing than I thought she would. I expected her to run, hide and cowering in a corner. I was a proud Bunny Mama.

Meanwhile through another connection (I talk to everyone I know and meet about rabbits) I got some more bonding advise which was to make sure the rabbits have at least 12-14 hours of daylight every day. That a breeder friend told him that in getting bunnies to get along, sunlight some how plays a role. Interesting. So needless to say that both Baby and Gracie are no longer in dark bedrooms all day – blinds up for them. Has any one else heard of this I wonder?????

I will keep everyone updated…..send Baby some <<<>>> Thanks.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I know that rabbits like all animals (except those that live underwater or in caves) do require sunlight. But I’ve never heard about a rold in bonding. In my experience breeders do have some crazy ideas about rabbit care -but sometimes some really good ones too. Vitamin D is not one of the vitamins involved with stress, more so in organ and cardiovascular health-so I can’t really see it helping. But who knows? Why not try!

{{Bonding Vibes}}

[BinkyBunny]

Sounds like Red Door Shelter is a great place. My first bunny went through six dates before he found his perfect mate. It’s so great that you are taking time.

I haven’t heard of sunlight role in bonding either. It might be helpful in the sense of schedule and predictability? That can help rabbits with being calmer.  Otherwise, don’t know.

[bunnymama]

We are taking Baby #1 on more dates this Sat. They have 3-4 males for us to try. Some will be re-dates from our previous trip and 2-3 will be new for her. Wish us luck. I’ll update what happens…..

[Deleted User]

Good luck, I hope your baby finds love at first sight

[BinkyBunny]

How exciting. Good Luck! Can’t wait to hear all about it.

[bunnymama]

This story is no over without a bond for Baby and Gracie…..See our next challenge Baby and Dino at this link:

https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aff/11/aft/104457/afv/topic/afpgj/1/Default.aspx#105245

We love bunnies and hope to have these two snuggling some time soon. Thanks for reading.

[Author]

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