*Bonded* Luna and Atlas journal

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi all,

I’m not really a regular here, but thought I would start a bonding journal so that I can keep track of what’s working, and also so that I can get wise advice from all of you! 

THE RABBITS:

I have two rabbits, Luna, a 1 yr old spayed female who is clever and pretty bossy, and Atlas, a very chilled out 6 month old male who was neutered 2 months ago. Atlas is a good bit smaller than Luna, although they are supposedly both mini lop crosses. They have been living side by side for 4 months, and have had their litterboxes etc swapped during that time. They’ve been able to see each other, but had double bars so can’t reach each other. We did full cage swapping for a bit too. Luna was initially very aggressive towards him, but now flops by the side of his cage, and is generally interested but not aggressive. He has always been very interested in her.

THE BACKGROUND:

I have a small flat, and the only neutral territory is the bathroom. They share the room that their cages are in, and get alternate time running around it.

I sent them to a professional bonder a month ago, but she decided it was too soon after his neuter (it was 4 weeks after) as he was still exhibiting hormonal behaviours. She advised we try again a month later (now), but unfortunately isn’t available to help until November, so I thought I would give it a go myself. When they went to the bonder I fully neutralised their room in preparation for their return, so I think now they have equal ownership of it, and its not just Luna’s (the original bunny). 

BONDING DAY ONE:

Yesterday, I put both rabbits in a large neutral cardboard box in the room that both their cages are in. I sprinkled the box with kale and pellets and put them in. They ignored each other and ate the food. Once the food was eaten they started interacting a bit more. Atlas was jumpy if Luna moved quickly near him, but it ended with them both loafing next to each other and me stroking them. They were in the box for about 10 minutes. 

Since this went relatively well, I did another two 10 minute sessions throughout the evening. Luna kept shoving her head under him to be groomed, and he ignored her. They sat nose to nose for a bit, then Luna seemed to get frustrated with being kept in the small box, nipped him and jumped out. It was not an aggressive nip, and he wasn’t too concerned. Atlas didn’t try to hump her at any point, so I’m confident that he’s no longer hormonal. 

QUESTIONS: 

• Is putting food in the box a positive distraction, or should I avoid it so they interact more? I wanted them to associate each other with positive things. 
• Should I keep going with the small neutral box, or should I move them to the larger neutral bathroom? I’m worried a larger space could result in chasing but the small box seems to be frustrating Luna.
• Should I keep up the multiple short sessions in a day, and aim for a longer one next weekend?
• I intervened quite a lot when they were near each other, even though actually there was no real aggression from either. Do I need to step back now, or is it ok to be hands on for the first few sessions and ensure it all remains positive, even if it limits interactions?

[Vienna Blue in France]

Hi there.
I’m from the bigger bonding area so that they can chase a little and get out of each others way if needs be. Food and boxes in the middle are all good distractions.
You need to keep out of their way really so they can get on with it without your interference but i know others here on BB like getting in the middle and stroking and reassuring the buns. Different methods seem to work, you have to play it by ear.

The one thing we are all in agreement about is that the buns may nip but NOT attack aggressively and they should be supervised with ski gloves or oven gloves as protection.
And they must BOTH being grooming EACH other to be deemed bonded.
Oh AND things CANNOT be rushed. Go at the buns’ speed, whatever that is….

They both may at some point hump the other during this bonding process. This is not nec hormonal but an act of dominance.

It sounds as if it is going well. Keep going and keep us updated. With photos if possible….

[Deleted User]

Great questions! I’m currently bonding mine so I will give you some advice based on my experience

My buns seem a lot like yours do personality-wise! My female is quite bossy and spoiled (first bun) so it took her some getting used to the new guy. He is a super chill guy! My female is a Dutch going on 9 months and the male is a mini lop, about 4 1/2 months.

For mine, I had a similar set up except no cages. The male got free roam of my bedroom and Ophelia has the rest of the apartment. They are separated by baby gates at my bedroom door. I did this setup and prebonding for about 2 1/2 months. I also have a small apartment so the only “neutral” area was the bathroom.

We started in the tub and things went great, but Ophelia is very *adventurous* so after 1 or 2 days in the tub we went to the bathroom floor. My bathroom is TINY and eventually I think it caused a few problems with them because they felt like they couldn’t get away from each other when they wanted to. So we moved to the kitchen and that eased things up a bit.

1. I always start the sessions with some yummy food! Either salad, some herbs, pellets, or some other veggies. I also have a pile of hay available (but mine are doing 4-5 hour sessions not just 10 minutes). I like to think that giving their favorite food gets them in a happy “mood”. Don’t use litter boxes until they spend hours together with no problems. I had two fights break out due to litter box issues.

2. If she is constantly trying to get out of the box, I would try the bathroom. Could you section off any portion of the bathroom or start in the tub so that you are increasing the space, but not all at once? You don’t want to overwhelm them, but they may want a larger space.

3. I would do your short sessions throughout this week and aim for a longer one on the weekends. I’m not sure of your schedule, but I work and go to school so I only have full days to dedicate to bonding on the weekends. Mine have been able to tolerate hours together from the very beginning, but if you can work up to 30 minutes or 1 hour sessions during the week, I would go for it as long as they are ok with it!

4. Intervening- this is where people disagree. I was also very hands on during the first meeting because Ophelia had been kind of aggressive lately and she would grunt at him sometimes. So when they would go near each other I would stick my hand in between them to make sure that she wasn’t going to attack. They actually had a great first session and they were literally GLUED to each other for 3 hours. When I switched to the floor in the bathroom through Ophelia tried to mount Quincy, and he was not having it. So I pushed her off of every attempt because it really stressed him out and I wanted them to be more comfortable with each other before allowing that. She has actually stopped trying to mount and he has never tried to mount her. So I think it depends on the buns. For me, I thought it best to not let it happen because I knew it would lead to a fight. Quincy would turn and bite her then run and she would try to pursue. I wanted them to get a good “relationship” where they felt safe near each other before I let the mounting take place. I didn’t mean to intentionally stop her from trying, but she has stopped and I am hoping they can sort out dominance without the mounting part.

Good luck! Keep us updated and yes, pics if you can! Snuggling bunnies are the best!

[Sirius&Luna]

Thank you both, very useful advice! I think I’ll try the bathroom and see if we can make it a bit longer this evening then. I’ve tried Luna in the empty bath before and she absolutely hates it, so I don’t think that would be a positive environment to put them in. I could definitely section off some of the bathroom though.

I read your bonding thread BunNoob, and thought our buns sounded very similar! If mine bond I’m hoping to have them cage free too. I hope yours keep making positive steps!

Should I basically just keep going for as long as things seem positive? I didn’t want to push it so I separated after a short time, but maybe I need to give them longer.

And yes, I had my leather gloves on, and my boyfriend was stood by with the oven gloves

I’ll try and get some photos this evening, hopefully I’ll be feeling calmer!

[Deleted User]

Oh no worries, I know how stressful it is at first!!! They basically have to earn YOUR trust as well! I didn’t want to have my phone either until I was sure that nothing sudden was going to break out!

I definitely think that if they are doing well you should try to go for longer sessions. Of course, that is pending them both being ok with it as well! I will say, just make sure you pay attention to them and separate once they seem to start acting antsy, stressed, bothered, etc. Longer sessions are great, but you don’t want to just wait until something bad happens. Try to end before either are obviously annoyed or distressed. Some squash banana on their foreheads to encourage grooming. I did that once but Quincy’s fur turned into an absolute mess XD so then I just took a piece of canned pineapple and rubbed it on their head, so it was basically just juice. A lot less sticky, clumpy fur than the banana!

[Sirius&Luna]

Sounds like a good plan, I think I should be able to see if either is starting to get antsy.

I tried the banana trick with a previous pair, and they both refused to lick it off and both ended up with a horrible mush of dried banana in their fur juice sounds like a better option!

[Sirius&Luna]

I did a 20 minute session in the bathroom, that was overall a positive. Started off with food again. They both cleaned themselves, and Luna flopped. Atlas climbed over her, which she ignored. (Photo hopefully attached, it’s pretty cute). Atlas tended to be a bit jumpy if she made any sudden movements, and she nipped him on the bum a couple of times when he refused to groom her. They sat head to head for a while. Atlas is a very licky bunny in general, so I reckon he’ll give in soon, but I might try the banana / juice trick later. The bathroom definitely worked better than the box! <img</img

[Deleted User]

Off to a good start it seems! Don’t worry, one will give in eventually for mine, Ophelia gave in first but now they take turns grooming each other. It’s so cute to watch!! And Quincy keeps being so floppy in our sessions!! It’s cute when they flop against each other. Well, pretty much anything they do is cute, right?!

[Sirius&Luna]

Managed to fix the photo! I can’t wait to get to the grooming stage. They’re so cute together!

[Deleted User]

AWWWW how sweet!! Snugglebuns!!

Quincy has super big fluffy feet, like your brown bun! I love it!!

[Sirius&Luna]

Haha bunny feet are the best. That one’s Luna

I did two half hour sessions in the bathroom yesterday. The first one was a bit of a disaster, but that was my fault. The bars i had blocking off part of the room fell down, making a huge noise and stressing them both out a lot. Unfortunately the accidental stress didn’t bring them together, it just made them both very jumpy. I calmed them down, then took them back to their pens to chill out.

Second session went better. Atlas was pretty jumpy every time Luna moved near him. There was a lot of sitting head to head, but neither would give in and groom. I put some banana on Luna’s head, and with some encouragement Atlas licked it off, but stopped as soon as the banana was gone! This seemed to mollify Luna a bit, and then they loafed next to each other for a while. I saw Atlas move from a stressed hunched position into a more relaxed loaf while next to her, so hopefully he’s learning to be less stressed around her.

Should I continue with the banana or is it cheating? Is there anything else I can do to help Atlas feel more relaxed? Luna is very calm around him, and has flopped in every session. She doesn’t chase when he startles and runs, but she has nipped him for not grooming her a couple of times.

[Deleted User]

What I have done for calming is try to get them squished side-by-side with their faces close to each other. Then I stroke the top of their head for 10-15 minutes and that usually starts us off on the right foot! They’ll say laying together or one will choose to groom the other after I stop.

Quincy really didn’t start relaxing until like a week into it. Now they both flop or stretch out and seem generally relaxed most of the time, but I do have minor nipping still.

[Sirius&Luna]

Thank you! I did an hour session yesterday, which i started with them smushed together and by the end of it they were both fully flopped about a bunny away from each other

I also put a human plate (so neutral) of hay in, which caused a bit of a scuffle. Should I persist with hay until they don’t scuffle, or wait until they’re a bit more settled before introducing extras?

They seem to get better the further into a session we get, so I’m looking forward to trying out a significantly longer one at the weekend. Although sitting in my windowless bathroom for hours is not really the weekend dream!

How cute is that?? 

[Deleted User]

I know what you mean about sitting in the bathroom for hours…

Mine were always fine with hay, and I actually had a litter box in the sessions (didn’t know that I shouldn’t) for about 3 days until they had a fight in the box. But they have been fine with piles of hay scattered around. It’s not ideal and it causes a huge mess for you to clean up, but could you just put a couple of piles of hay around on the floor? You’ll have to sweep after the sessions for sure lol! But that’s how I started with the food and now I usually just do one pile and they are fine both eating together from that.

I love when they flop! I’m in a bit of a spell with my two right now….but hopefully we just work through this rough patch without any serious incidents.

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi all,

Everything is still going pretty much the same with my two. They’ll now flop next to each other, but still no real grooming. I would say they’re pretty relaxed around each other now, but sometimes Atlas is just very annoying to Luna.

For example, she’ll be lying down and he’ll go over and dig at her? At which point she jumps up, but doesn’t lash out at him, which I think is pretty tolerant to be honest. I saw @sarahthegemini started a thread about this before and no one seemed to know why. Did you ever get to the bottom of it? (I don’t even know if you can tag people like that on here so sorry if not!)

He also spends a lot of time chinning her head! Which strikes me as very odd behaviour? Does he want to claim her as his? Why not just groom???

[Deleted User]

hmmm I haven’t seen my two chin each other, but I’ve seen them chin the various objects around the room.

Quincy doesn’t dig at her, but he goes up and sniffs her bum when she’s laying down and she really doesn’t like that! She hops up immediately like “excuse me, sir”

At least you aren’t having fights! No fights is a good session, as far as I’m aware!

[Sirius&Luna]

Yes, I need to remember how grateful I would have been a month ago for no fights! It just feels like nothing is really improving, and I know you know that feeling too BunNoob! I am very grateful for how patient Luna is mostly being, considering that Atlas can behave in a very irritating way at times. I’m pretty sure they both want to be friends, they’re just not 100% sure how.

I guess its just a matter of time and persistence.

[Deleted User]

I think we are truly in an identical situation here XD Both my bunnies love their attention and pets, so I think that they both have affectionate personalities and enjoy each others company….but they just can’t figure out where they stand with each other! Ophelia has been suuuuuper patient with Quincy, which I didn’t expect. But I think she just wants to love him and cuddle, but he’s always gotta be a butthead and nip her! She even is quite tolerant of his bum sniffing infatuation…she used to grunt any time someone goes near her bum. But now if he does a light sniff she’s fine, but if he stuffs his face in (yes, he does that!) then she will get up and move.

[Sirius&Luna]

Haha, it’s always the boys 

It’s good that your Ophelia is getting more tolerant of his bum sniffing though  hopefully they’ll be able to reach some sort of truce soon. 

I wonder if its because both of our boys are younger too? Atlas is only just 6 months, so maybe he’s still full of annoying childish energy! 

[Deleted User]

hmm I wonder! My female is 9 months and Quincy is only abut 5

[Sirius&Luna]

Over the weekend I managed to leave them together for 5 hours! I also introduced litter trays, hay and a water bowl, and there was no scuffling over it at all!
I sat in the bathroom with them for the first hour, then i left the bathroom door open and blocked off with part of pen for the next 4 hours. I even saw a tiny lick of Atlas from Luna! I did either stand outside the door just out of sight, or check on them pretty much every other minute, but it went well. I’m so pleased.

Does this mean they’re ready for semi-neutral? Or am I meant to leave them together overnight before semi-neutral?

[Deleted User]

That’s great!

I’ve been told that you don’t want to go to semi-neutral until they can do one or two overnights together without issues. Before you do an overnight, you want them to be spending 6-8 hours together with no issues for 5 days. I know that for some people it’s not possible to do that many. I can only fit 5 hours in with my schedule on the weekdays, and we try to do 8 hours on the weekends.

The idea is that you want to really “cement” each stage. When they progress to using the litterbox and can be left “unsupervised” with you close by, you want to repeat that for at least a few days so that you know and each bun knows “this is ok, we can share”. That way, they don’t go into semi-neutral territory and decide that they actually aren’t ok with sharing and they want to fight over it. Make sense?

[Sirius&Luna]

Thanks, yepp, that makes perfect sense. I’ll try and leave them in the bathroom every evening this week then, and aim for an overnight next weekend if all goes well. I can also only do 5 hours really, from when I get home at 6 until about 11, and even that is pushing my bedtime!

[Deleted User]

I totally understand! I have the exact same problem, and I take medication to sleep so I HAVE to be in bed by 11pm at the very latest, or I will wake up super groggy from my medication. I have accepted that it may just take me a bit more time to bond them, but that’s ok.

[Sirius&Luna]

Haha yepp, and it will all be worth it in the end!

[Sirius&Luna]

So, last night I left them together overnight! They were absolutely fine! I did get up a few times to check on them when I heard noises, but it was Atlas binkying around the room, not scuffling at all

When I snuck in to see them when I woke up they were both snuggled up

My boyfriend is working from home today, so hopefully they’ll spend a whole 24 hours in the bathroom together.

How do people deal with feeding different diets? As Atlas is still a lot smaller than Luna I give him a baby portion (eg. more) pellets than Luna. Yesterday I just gave Luna extra pellets so she would leave him alone while he was eating his, but that’s not something I want to do permanently as she’ll get fat!

[Sirius&Luna]

Also, they’re still not really grooming each other, BUT they’re no longer aggressive about it. Eg. Luna doesn’t nip anymore when Atlas doesn’t groom her, and they don’t do that sitting head to head in a stand off thing. They definitely give each other the occasional lick.

Do some bunnies just not groom a lot? Or will that come with more time?

[Sirius&Luna]

My buns are doing well! I had them permanently together from Thursday evening in the bathroom, where they spent about 60 straight hours together. Absolutely no negative behaviour, and lots of positive behaviour. A bit of grooming from both, choosing to eat from the same litter tray, and lots of loafing and flopping together. They do also loaf and flop separately though. I heard a thud at one point and rushed in, Atlas had managed to jump off a box into the bath! He’s such an explorer.

They’ve also sort of started moving as a pack if one appears the other does too

Yesterday I moved them into the living room together, and haven’t seen any change in their behaviour. No issues overnight, and my boyfriend is working from home today with them.

Do I need to separate them if we can’t monitor them tomorrow? I’m reluctant, since leaving them together for an extended period seems to have really helped them, and I haven’t seen any negative interactions in over a week I would say. I have also seen lots of positive interactions, so I’m not just calling no negatives positive.

Is loafing and flopping separately problematic? Or is it ok for them to not be snuggle buns all the time?

[Deleted User]

hmmm. I don’t have any suggestions about the different feeding requirements, sorry!

That’s great that they are getting along so well! Is the living room semi-neutral or is it one bun’s territory? I might be reluctant to leave them unsupervised just yet. Just to be safe, ya know? It sounds like they are doing well but have you seen any dominance displays? Has either one mounted? It sounds like they are getting along but may not have totally sorted out their hierarchy. That could potentially lead to some scuffles if they get testy when no one is around.

[Sirius&Luna]

Well the living room is kind of both of their territory, but has been cleaned thoroughly. So I’m hoping semi-neutral that can turn permanent.

I’m pretty sure that Luna is dominant, but I haven’t seen mounting. Atlas tried to mount Luna once early on and she nipped him, and he hasn’t tried since. How do I know if they’ve sorted out dominance? They’ve both been grooming each other.

[Deleted User]

I’ve heard that the grooming isn’t really a great way to determine if they’ve got dominance sorted out because sometimes the dominant one will groom the submissive and then request grooms, so it’s not really clear cut as to who grooms who. Obviously Ophelia is the dominant out of my two, but Quincy seems reluctant to just give in and let her. They both groom each other often, and in fact she grooms him more. But she does all the mounting. So see what I mean?

I’m by no means an expert, but I just personally wouldn’t try unsupervised just yet. That’s me though, I worry and would rather not leave them alone unless I was positive that they are just in love.

Regarding the original post, I saw that they lounge away from each other and I think that’s normal in a bonded pair. They don’t have to be glued together 24/7 but it seems that some pairs are just like that .

[Sirius&Luna]

Sorry, I wasn’t disagreeing with you, I’m just not sure how I can tell dominance, because I know it’s not just based on grooming, and I haven’t seen mounting from either of them, except Atlas that one time. I’ve also read that sometimes neither bunny is obviously dominant – how can you tell whether its one of those situations, or whether they still have dominance to sort out?

I will keep supervising!

[Deleted User]

Oh no I didn’t think you were! It’s still unclear to me how you can KNOW that they are ready for the unsupervised life. I think it is definitely difficult to tell (for a first timer) whether they have sorted out dominance or not. I thought mine had at one point, but they were just getting along really well and then some mounting started up and escalated to a few spats. That’s all I was saying is that mine got along great for like a week and we had long sessions with no aggression, but then Ophelia started mounting and Quincy wasn’t having it. I would hate for that to happen and turn into a fight when you aren’t around is all! I think it can be quite confusing to tell when they are ready to take the plunge without ANY anticipated incidents! I saw the other topic you started and I am glad you did, because I was about to make my own post asking the same thing!

[Sirius&Luna]

They’re such tricky creatures! I’ve also just sent a message to the professional who gave up on them (lol), asking her at what point she considers them to bonded, so I’ll let you know if she has anything useful to add!

How are your two doing?

[Deleted User]

I was also considering reaching out to my local rabbit rescue to ask some of these tricky questions! Definitely let me know if they give you any good info!

Mine are doing about the same, but more mounting attempts from Ophelia. Quincy tolerates it sometimes and sometimes he doesn’t. She’s been getting nippy -.- like she will groom him then all of a sudden you see her start biting and he flicks his head like “hey excuse me”. So she’s being a little bit of a jerk to him lol and he’s trying to be nice. They have tolerated litter boxes in several sessions, but this weekend we didn’t get any sessions in on Friday or Saturday because I had an awful cold. But it’s basically the same thing every day lol

[DanaNM]

If you haven’t seen any negatives in a week, and you have positives, I would personally be calling them bonded.

My only hesitation with leaving them unsupervised at this point is that they’ve only been in the new area for about a day and a half, right? I would wait until they’ve been in the new area for at least 3 days without issue before calling them bonded, but 2 days could be OK. You know their pattern the best. Did they have issues when you started marathoning in neutral space? Mine would chase for about a day every time we moved to a new spot, but where fine after that. How big is the bonding area? Is there enough space for one to get away from the other if a chase happened? How long would you be gone, and what time of day?

I also did have to separate mine for a coupe hours during our marathon and it was not the end of the world. If you separate them, try not to have one bunny stay in the bonding area, to make sure they don’t claim it for themselves. It’s often hard to tell in bonded pairs who is actually the boss because they’ll both groom each other, but it’s usually the lady.

No mounting is fine. Mine have never mounted aside from the first date (and the one mounting ended up being submissive). It’s also fine for them not to be snuggling 24/7. Mine will spend about half their down time together, and the other half apart.

If they aren’t getting into scuffles when one requests grooming, or being aggressive over food or litter boxes, for jumpy when the other bunny is close to their rear end, that usually means they have sorted out their dominance issues.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Sirius&Luna]

Thanks Dana. After I started marathoning on Thursday eve (sort of accidentally, it just happened that my boyfriend was working from home on Friday so could keep monitoring) there weren’t any scuffles at all.

There haven’t been scuffles since early sessions really, even when I added litter boxes, cardboard box toys, and treats.

Luna stopped nipping when Atlas refused to groom her about a week ago. They’re not jumpy anymore, or behaving in any of dominance establishing ways you mentioned

They’re in an area about 1 meter by 2 meters, so there’s definitely space for them to be apart if they want to be. I would be gone for about 9 hours during the work day, so quite long, but its also the time where they’re usually lazy and snoozing!

I just heard back from my professional bonder and she said she’d consider them bonded.

[DanaNM]

Ok cool, I was leaning towards bonded as well!

Congrats, can’t wait to see snuggling new bunny-love pics!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Sirius&Luna]

Thank you!

I might try and get my boyfriend to work from home tomorrow as well, just for my peace of mind, then it’ll be well over 48 hours.

[Sirius&Luna]

Luna and Atlas have been living together for just over a week now, with no problems! I’m going to officially declare them bonded!

[Vienna Blue in France]

Champagne cork popping !!!!!!! yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy clapclap clap clap clap

[DanaNM]

Wooooohoooo!

Good job and congrats to the happy couple !

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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