BONDED Leroy and Jeannie (with videos and pictures!)

[Barbie]

DAY 1

This will be my bonding journal as I work on bonding Leroy and his new girlfriend (who is currently unnamed, so she’s just “new bunny” for now )

Their initial meetings when I took Leroy dating went VERY well.  Leroy groomed her on their first and second meeting and there was no aggression between the two.  So, Leory and I picked her and brought her home last night.  Initiallly I had planned to wait a couple days before bothing the new bunny, but she was so cute, I just had to let her out in a pen to play with her.   She seemed totally at home and comfortable with me and with her new home.

Last night and this morning they showed an incredible ammount of interest in each other  through the cage bars, and given the success of their first meeting, I decided to do a quick bonding session this morning.  I started the bonding in the bathtub becasue it’s a neutral area and because it’s small so I can watch them and intervene if need be.  Well…. It went ok. They both were initially trying to get out of the tub and then for a while they just sat there, side by side, not moving.  It wasn’t a comfortable sit though, they were very tense.  I don’t know if it was becasue of the bath tub or becasue of each other…. and then Leroy got a bit more confidence and started getting pretty humpy.  I let him hump her for a few seconds since she let him and wasn’t running away, but then I pushed him off.  Should I let him hump her (of course, on the butt, not on the face)?   Then they both sat there some more; Leroy munched some hay, new bunny wouldn’t eat anything.  Leroy tried to hump a few more times, but I pushed him off.  And as I was petting both of them, Leroy groomed her a little bit on her side, which I was happy to see after all his humpiness, so I ended it there.

I was expecting the new bunny to be more dominant since she was the one requesting and receiving the groomings on their dates…. so is it ok that Leroy humps her now?  Was the new bunny just too scared to be more dominant; should I wait a little longer before doing any more bonding sessions?

 ETA: “New Bunny” now has a name: Eugénie or Jeannie!

 

[Barbie]

DAY 2

I did another quick bonding session this morning. This time I put a towel in the bottom of half of the tub. I know it defeats the purpose of the slick surface, but yesterday New Bunny was so terrified of the floor that I though this might help her be a little more confident. I kept Leroy to the non-towel side since he’s got enough confidence already. Leroy tried to hump her once – or it looked like he was going to try, I pushed him off before he got started. Then I think he got a bit frustrated, and he got a little nippy, but I just kept pushing him away and finally he calmed down. When he was sitting still, New Bunny left her towel to approach him and sniff, but then she went away. Then they just sat at opposite ends of the tub for awhile, doing nothing. I was petting them both so this might have contributed to their unwillingness to move. Leroy then decided he wanted to be on the towel too and since he had calmed down and stopped nipping, I let him. She asked him to groom her and he did (he started getting a little rough and he might have slipped a nip in there).   I pushed Leroy away and New Bunny took a hop or two away from him. Leroy tried to follow her and since he approached her from the side (and I think took another nip at her), they had a bit of an altercation – she obviously did not appreciate what he was doing and was bound and determined to tell him so.  I separated them both and after they calmed down we reached a stalemate. They sat facing eachother with their cheeks touching and their chins on the floor, both demanding that the other bunny groom them. They were just like little kids stubbornly fighting over a toy! I could feel them pushing on each others face I knew that at this point it was unlikely that either would give in so I petted them a bit and ended the session there since no one was fighting and they were at least touching.

 

 

I took Leroy to his cage first and then came back for New Bunny (I put her in the tub first too) I’m not sure what order I should put them in/out of the neutral area but I figured that since New Bunny was a little uncomfortable in the tub yesterday, I’d put her in first and leave her in there the longest so she can get more comfortable with the tub and get some of her confidence back. Also, New Bunny is too little to get herself out of the tub… Leroy is tall enough taht he can get his front paws of the edge and pull himself out and I don’t want him to hurt himself if he falls. Does it matter what order I put them in/out of the bonding area?

When I came back to get New Bunny, she was fastideously grooming herself… I think she was saying, “Gots ta get da icky boy bunny smell offa me!”

[Barbie]

DAY 2

Did another bonding session tonight. More of the same. Leroy was still nippy, though he didn’t try to mount her. Though that may have been becasue I was holding him back and trying to keep him from biting her. No more grooming so I cheated and put some applesauce on their heads. Leroy groomed New Bunny, but she didn’t reciprocate. I feel bad for him. I think his nippy-ness is because she’s not grooming him. They had another little scuffle. It usually happens when one or the other gets too close to the other’s butt. I try to keep them positioned so they’re not butt to face, but they’re so quick. Nothing serious though, just more lunging and a nip or two from both. Didn’t break the skin or pull out fur. We ended with them sitting nose to nose like in the above picture, no nipping, and me petting their heads for a minute or two.

[Monkeybun]

They’re so cute together!

(((((grooming vibes!!)))))

[Elrohwen]

Aww, what a cute couple!!

Ok, so take this with a grain of salt, since I have zero bonding experience, but something you wrote tipped off part of my brain that thought “What would Petzy do?”

For your little girl, you said you were trying to make her more comfortable in the bathtub, but I think you might be better off if she’s thrown off balance a little bit. And to extend that, Leroy might be less nippy if he wasn’t so confident. Maybe a stress bonding session is in order? From Petzy’s advice to others, it seems like the less confident they are in their surroundings, the more they turn to each other.

Good luck! I still can’t wait to hear what New Bunny’s name is 😉

[Barbie]

Hmmm Elrohwen, I didn’t think about it that way. You’re right, Leroy could stand to be taken down a notch. It probably doesn’t help that he ruled the roost around here so even the bathroom isn’t ENTIRELY neutral – the tub is though, he’d never been in it before I got New Bunny.

Now I just have to figure out how/where to do a stress bonding…. I have a carrier but I don’t want to put them in it because I need to be able to get my hand in there quickly in case they start going at it…. I don’t have a washer/dryer to turn on and put them on top of…. Hmmm, I think tomorrow I’ll put them in a laundry basket or cardboard box and kind of just rock it around… could I do that in the living room or bedroom, even though they’re not “neutral”? If that doesn’t work I can always recruit the BF or my best friend to drive us around in the car.

And I’m close to finally picking her name   I’m spending some more time with her before deciding so I can see which fits the best

[Monkeybun]

Make a grid cube Its great, you can just haul it around the place, shaking it to shake em up

[Barbie]

Hahaha I just got a GREAT image of you hauling Monkey and Moose in a little grid cube around your apartment and shaking it to get them to bond I’ll try something like that tomorrow!

[Barbie]

DAY 3

I tried bonding them in a laundry basket. I held it up, so I think the height and the slippery bottom of the laundry basket worried them enough that neither tried to attack the other. I did shake the basket a bit every now and then. In this setting, Leroy wasn’t even nippy or humpy! Though I think they were both too scared for grooming. Leroy didn’t groom Jeannie this time. I ended the bonding session after about 15 minutes, put the basket on the floor and kind of shoved them together to sit side by side, and I petted them before getting them out of the basket.

[Elrohwen]

Sounds good to me! I think having positive experiences like that will be good for them. Not that riding in a laundry basket is a good experience, but their interaction together was positive.

[Barbie]

Very true. Then they can band together and gang up on me! I can just see it… the two bunnies plotting through their cage bars.

I was thinking about doing another bonding session tonight but I’m tired… so we’ll see.

[Monkeybun]

*wistful sigh*

I am so jealous.

[jerseygirl]

Then they can band together and gang up on me! I can just see it…

Careful….this DOES happen! lol

Barbie, I don’t know if this’ll be worth it but I’m wondering if you could observe them in a similar set up to the shelter. Maybe a pen with a tarp/shower curtain/picnic rug or blanket? So creating a neutral space if you will. You said they did well at the shelter. So I’m kinda curious if what they’d be like in a pen. In the tub, “they” (rabbits in general) can spend more time periscoping and wondering why they’re there. If they do well in a pen, you might be able to skip the tub and the other stress bonding. Or keep those aside for if things regress.

Some more familiar, stable ground for these two might be worth a try as they’ve already shown a liking to each other. I’m sorry , I haven’t seen your entire videos as they didn’t entirely load for me. I’m having intermittent trouble with this…grrr!

[Barbie]

Jersey, I’m going to see if I can con my friend into letting us use her apartment for a little bit this weekend for bonding sessions. That way they’ll be in a completely neutral setting. When we went dating, both bunnies were in a neutral space – I brought Leroy and Jeannie’s foster mom brought her to the HRS adoption coordinator’s house. So it might be good for them to go to a completely neutral space for a few sessions and then try the pen with a blanket down here. In the bonding section of this website, I saw the pictures of the pen set up with the blankets and stuff covering the sides so the bunnies couldn’t see out, so I’ll try that tomorrow and see what happens.

As for the videos…. yeah sometime I have trouble with youtube too… would going directly to the video be better than the embedded vids? http://www.youtube.com/LeroyTheBunny

[Lintini]

Oh my gosh…your buns are so cute together! I am glad things are going well with them! “New Bunny” is such a little doll!!! Leroy seems a lot like Indy!

[Elrohwen]

I love the video! Leroy just wants someone to make out with, apparently 😛 He’s very groomy!

[mrmac]

They look very good together! Leroy is very handsome! Leroy just looks like he is asserting his dominance over Jeannie right now, “OMG a girl bunny!”. She obviously is not a push over, since she responded to his advances and resulted in a little scuffle. Leroy will just have to learn his boundaries with her, and she the same with him. Keep up with the sessions, they really are looking good so far!

[Barbie]

Thanks for the encouragement guys! *Runs off to start bonding, day 4*

[Barbie]

DAY 4

Things did not go so well this time around. I have the holes in my hand to prove it. I tried putting them in a pen…. It was ovbiously too early for that. They would sniff around and then get close to each other, looking as if everything was fine. And even though I was RIGHT THERE, all of a sudden they started going at it. I separated them, and they’d be ok for a bit and then something would set one or the other off again. Putting my hands in the middle of their fight probably wasn’t the smartest thing to do, but I was more concerned about their safety and making sure that no one got hurt and that no one had such a bad experience that it ruined the bonding. I BOUGHT gloves for the bonding, but silly me, I didn’t think to wear them… Both Leroy and Jeannie got me pretty badly. At one point, I was pulling away from Jeannie’s bite, but she had clamped down, and for just a second, she was literally dangling from my finger. I tried to put some mashed banana on Jeannie’s head but both were too worked up and excited to even think about grooming.

After about three scuffles, I called it quits and went back to the laundry basket. I shook them around a bit and then they settled down. No grooming though, but no nipping or humping either.

I always try to end the sessions on a positive note. So even if they aren’t voluntarily sitting together, I’ve been shoving them together to sit side by side or head to head and then I pet them for a bit before ending the bonding session. Is this a good thing to do?

The whole session was only 15 minutes.

[Barbie]

DAY 4

We just had a MAJOR breakthrough!!! I’m so happy!

I did another bonding session tonight. This time in the tub. Initially, some grunting and lunging from Jeannie when I first put the two together, but no big scuffles like earlier. And I didn’t get bitten again! I did wear my gloves at first because I feared that they had regressed to step negative ten and that we’d have another fight, but turns out I didn’t need them They did a lot of exploring the tub and just sitting and ignoring each other at first. When one would walk behind the other there was no nipping (this had been the cause of the couple scuffles we had in the tub earlier this week). And Jeannie approached/followed Leroy a few times to sit next to him. Things were going well so I got a book and just read, sitting next to them and watching the activities out of the corner of my eye.

All of a sudden we had a breakthrough, Jeannie came right up beside Leroy and he turned to her and without any mooshed banana or apple sauce on her head, he started grooming her! Ok, so there was some dried banana on her head that I couldn’t get off from earlier, so that might have helped, but he continued grooming her for a long time (or what seemed like a long time when you’re sitting on a cold hard bathroom floor). Leroy groomed her, off and on, for I would guess 7-10 minutes total! It might have continued, but I ended the bonding session while we were ahead and put both of them to bed.

Still no grooming from Jeannie though, so I think tomorrow I’ll try the banana on Leroy’s head to trick Jeannie into giving him a couple licks. I’m confident that early on in the session tonight I saw her swipe him once with her tongue on his shoulder, but that hardly counts as grooming. Leroy obviously wants to be groomed by her, after licking her head/ears for a bit, he’d put his head down as if saying “ok, my turn now please”. Twice, when she didn’t reciprocate, Leroy gave her a bit of a nip, but nothing came of it, they didn’t start fighting. When he put his head down, I’d pet him for a bit and then when I removed my hand, he’d resume grooming Jeannie.

They were in the bathtub for 45 minutes with no real incidents.  (Up until now, the sessions have been 15-20 minutes)

I have videos from tonight which I’ll post this weekend. No videos from earlier though when we had that fight in the pen – was too busy trying to keep them from attacking each other and/or from being devoured in the “cross bite”

Bathtub Buddies!

Leroy’s head looks misshapen here beacsue he was turning his head right as I took the picture, but they were snuggled up this close all on their own!  This was right before Leroy started grooming Jeannie for the first time in the session.

 

[Monkeybun]

They look so innocent sitting there looking at you… how looks can be decieving.. hehe

[Barbie]

DAY 5

Did another bonding session in the tub this morning. Things went well. Leroy started grooming Jeannie as soon as I put him in the tub, without any banana. I put banana on Leroy’s head to try to get Jeannie to groom him. Jeannie LOVES nanners but she was so stubborn that she wouldn’t even eat it off his head! Poor Leroy After I gave up on her grooming him, I offered her some banana from my hand, and she took it, so I know it’s not that she was too scared to eat. Any other suggestions to get her to groom Leroy? Leroy grooms Jeannie a lot, but he’s getting frustrated that she doesn’t groom him. It goes like this lick lick lick lick… head down… waiting… nip!… lick lick lick…. head down… sigh. Poor Leroy. And poor Jeannie for getting nipped, but at least she gets groomings!

Anyway, we sat for about 20 minutes and then Leroy had an oops and peed in the tub. Poor guy. He just couldn’t hold it any longer. All of the sessions I’ve done so far have been without a litter box because they’ve been short and because Jeannie and Leroy got a little territorial over the litter box when we went dating. But since Leroy obviously had to pee and since they were doing well, I put the common litter box in the tub with them. They get play time in the apartment separately, but they use the same litter box and toys in the living room without problems – no poop wars or anything -  (they each have their own stuff in their crates), so I know there was poop from both of them i there. Anyway, they had a little scuffle over the litter box, but after they calmed down, Leroy groomed Jeannie again and they sat there calmly, so I ended the session.

[Barbie]

DAY 6

More bonding today. This session was an hour and 15 minutes in the tub. No major issues. For the first half hour I left the litter box out and then for the last 45 minutes, I put the litter box in. Things were just basically more of the same… Leroy groomed and groomed and groomed Jeannie, but Jeannie still didn’t groom him, so he’d get frustrated and nip her. He got a bit humpy too since she wasn’t grooming him. It’s strange because she refuses to groom him and always puts her head down to demand grooming, but she lets him mount her. I kept Leroy from mounting her too much. They both groomed them selves, ate cecals, walked around and periscoped, and sat next to each other. No flops yet though. They shared a large piece of lettuce (I cut it into pieces) and they even used the litter box together without any nipping/fighting.

[Barbie]

DAY 6

We had another break though!!!! Actually… several in this bonding session.

It was an hour and a half long. I started out with the litter boxes (2 this time) in the tub. Leroy was so interested in the new hay that I had put in that he could care less about Jeannie, so she was able to jump in the same box with him and they munched away together. So CUTE! After awhile I took the litter boxes away because no bonding was going on… Leroy was too engrossed in his hay – he’s always been a bit of a glutton

After I took the litter boxes away it was more of the same, some grooming from Leroy and then nipping when he wasn’t being groomed. He tried to mount a couple times, but a stern “no” stopped him. And then I guess he just got bored because he flopped!!!! Leroy doesn’t flop too often as it is – he usually just lays on his tummy (like my current avatar pic). I was THRILLED to see this. It didn’t even last long enough for me to get my camera out though He got up as soon as I moved (which he usually does when he’s flopped and I’m trying to sneak a picture). And then just more of the same for awhile, but then Jeannie must have gotten bored because she decided to lay down in a loaf! When she’s out to play she rarely stops moving, and until now, neither of them have been any more relaxed than an upright sit in the bonding sessions (unless I’m petting them and squishing them out flat, lol). I got pix of this. She looks so adorable – like an ittly bitty jelly bean (which is one of the nick names my boyfriend coined for her! well… his exact words were “like a jelly bean with rotten spots” referring to her black markings )

After awhile, I went to get a little bit of banana to encourage more grooming and so that I could end the session on a good note. Well… both are absolutely nutty over bananas (I don’t know why, but Leroy used to refuse bananas and now he goes crazy over them) but I still couldn’t convince Jeannie to groom Leroy. Leroy, like the good, sweet boy that he is, of course groomed her some more. I was just about to end the session there, but I decided to give them just a few more minutes, so I turned back to my text book and out of the corner of my eye saw movement…. It was Jeannie… grooming LEROY!!!  I’m sure she was just licking the banana off his head because it only lasted about 20 seconds, but man am I excited about this! So hopefully in the future she’ll continue to eat off his head and then will groom him w no prompting at all Leroy looked surprised when she was licking his head. He actually pulled away for a second as if saying “wait, what is going on?!” and then stuck his head back down saying “more please.” She complied. I’ll post that video soon.

And I had to post this picture… I had my laptop with me in the bathroom and it was making noise – I think they look hilarious both periscoping like that

 

[Lintini]

yay!!!

[Monkeybun]

lol! A new olympic sport: synchronized periscoping

[Elrohwen]

Sounds like your bonding is going great! Just the fact that they aren’t fighting means they like each other at least a little bit 😛 I bet you’ll have a full bond pretty soon at the rate you’re going.

[jerseygirl]

Aww…compact little bunny loaf! She looks like a black-eyed pea. Barbie, you could have named her Fergie!
I can totally see the olympic pool before them in that periscope pic too. It’s like “On your marks…”
Adorable!

[Barbie]

Lintini, Elrohwen – I’m hoping to get them completely bonded soon! I hope things continue this well!

Jersey, MB – hahaha, i didn’t even think of it that way, but now that you point it out, it does look like they’re in some sort of synchronized sport or getting ready to dive into the pool

Jersey, Fergie is a cute name too! She does look like a Fergie. Shesh. Jeannie may go through several names with me

DAY 7

We did another bonding session this afternoon. 2.5 hours long. Same as usual. Lots of grooming from Leroy, minimal grooming from Jeannie (still had to be prompted by bananas).  Leroy flopped again! I let them out in the bathroom rather than in the tub for about 15 minutes part way though the bonding session, and it was going ok -minor scuffles – but I ended up just putting them back in the tub because I was distracted by a phone call. I felt comfortable enough to leave them and I was cleaning around my apartment but when I came back not even 5 minutes later, they were having a tiff! Sigh. Like little kids that act like angels in front of mommy, but get into it as soon as her back is turned That was the only time that happened though. I was able to come and go and they were ok in the tub alone. I think we’ll try the bathroom floor again tomorrow and/or progress to a pen!

[katie, max & penny]

i don’t know if anyone has said this, but it is a possibilty that leroy may be frustrated-flopping. sometimes when one bun is upset with the other, he will flop to out-relax the other. like “ha! see, i don’t care about you, look how relaxed i am!” max and penny do this after they get annoyed with each other… its quite funny.

[Barbie]

Katie, good point. It looked like just a relaxed flop though, since at the time that he did it, he wasn’t trying to get any grooming from her, but I could be wrong.

DAY 7

We did another hour long session late last night…. I think we’re stuck in a bit of a rut. They’re fine in the bathtub (well, if fine means lots of grooming from Leroy and not much grooming from Jeannie) but when I let them out on the bathroom floor, they suddenly have another scuffle (when that happens I promptly put them back in the tub). Ah well, this is how it was at first in the bathtub too. I think I’ll start doing 30 min bathtub sessions first and then let them out for another 30+ minutes or so in the bathroom – maybe doing tub sessions first will help them calm down and prevent as much fighting when we move to the bathroom floor. Until Jeannie starts grooming Leroy some more I don’t feel comfortable progressing farther than that though because Leroy is still occasionally expressing his frustration in aggression. Little nips here and there – nothing to break the skin or pull out fur, but still… it annoys her and I don’t want an all out fight! It’s not often that he nips her, he does it maybe 5 times in a 2 hour session. Also, I think Leroy might be getting annoyed by how demanding Jeannie is when it comes to grooming. If he stops grooming her and hops away, she’ll follow him and shove her head under his face or tummy. It’s kind of funny, actually. I’ve been careful not to let it turn into chasing though.  I think if Jeannie groomed Leroy just a bit more, all of our problems would be solved and we could move on to larger spaces and to cementing the bond… sigh. 

Does anyone recommend cage swapping?  Would that be helpful at this point?  I mean, they’re fine just sitting together in the tub and we haven’t had any poop wars (*fingers crossed, knock on wood!*) and I thought cage swapping was more just to get the bunnies used to each other’s scent, so we’re beyond that stage now… but I’m open to anything!  The banana on the head trick doesn’t work as well as  I’d like anymore.  Even though I smoosh the banana on Leroy’s head, yesterday Jeannie started just scraping it all off in one go and then she doesn’t come back to lick the remaining bits off his head…

[mrmac]

You could swap them in between cages or just swap litter boxes to start off with. It is always harder to move to a bigger space, just a matter of who will give in first. You could do both the swapping and tub sessions. They are starting to outsmart the tub by learning that, “if we’re good in here, then she will take us out.” I also cut open raisins and smeared that goo on their heads, it is a little harder to get off. The raisin goo is stickier, and may need a damp paper towel wipe afterwards. They really are looking good!

[Barbie]

Yeah, you’re right, they have learned that if they behave they’ll get out, lol. I think I’ll try the rasin goo and I’ll swap cages tonight. They already use the same litter box in the common area when I let them out to play so I don’t think just swapping litter boxes will be enough since I know the litter box doesn’t faze either of them in the common play area.

Jeannie REALLY wants to be in Leroy’s cage anyway, so she might like it. This morning, like usual, I let one of them out to the apartment and let one of them out in my bedroom. Jeannie got the bedroom this morning, and after my shower, I came back to my bedroom to get dressed and I couldn’t find Jeannie anywhere! I was beginning to think she had escaped out the bedroom door without me noticing when I happened to look in Leroy’s cage. And there she was, happy as a clam, sitting up on his second level, enjoying the view lol. Silly girl!

[Barbie]

DAY 8

Arghh! Things didn’t go well today. I put them in the bathtub again and they were fine for the first 45 or 60 minutes, so I figured I’d go about some of my chores and leave them alone… poor choice. I don’t know who or what started it but they started fighting! Jeannie pulled out so much of Leroy’s fur in the 30 seconds between when they started fighting and I got there! Sigh. I pulled them apart (thank goodness for my gloves!), held them down a bit, and when I released them, Jeannie almost immediately went for him again and tried to start a fight again. They calmed down enough for me to feel ok leaving, so I hid outside the bathroom so I could still see them but they couldn’t see me, and they started up again! I think it’s Jeannie that’s starting it…

I feel like everything we’ve done so far has been useless. All they’ve learned is to just behave as long as I’m around. I sat there in the bathroom with them in the tub for a while longer, and Leroy started grooming Jeannie, and things were looking good. So I moved them to a pen that I had set up (it’s 2×3 NIC grids on top of towels that neither bunny has been on). Mistake. They started fighting again, so I broke them up and then Leroy ran over to the corner and peed! It may have been territorial, but i think it was just because he really had to go – I didn’t give them a litter box. When Leroy peed I had to end the session becasue I had to clean it up (we were on top of the carpet). Sigh. I’m frustrated, but I’m not giving up. I’ll do another session with them tonight and I’m determined to get them at least back to where we were yesterday.

[Elrohwen]

From what I hear, you often take steps backwards before you take steps forwards. Don’t give up hope! Maybe do more stress bonding for a few days so they can forget about the fight?

[Barbie]

Elrohwen, I’ve read that too, so I wasn’t too discouraged about the set back, but still, the disaster of this afternoon’s session was kind of a downer when I thought we were progressing so smoothly.

DAY 8

Stress bonding might have worked, but… I did another session tonight and just proceeded as if nothing had happened. I tried not to get too tense during the session because I know they can sense that, so I tried to put today’s earlier debacle out of my mind. I just let them out in the bathroom to roam around there like I’ve tried before – didn’t even put them in the tub first because I wanted to keep this session short. I was reading a textbook, but I kept a close eye on them and intervened before anything escalated. I’m able to tell now when one or the other looks like they might attack/nip and usually use a “no” or firmly petting them on the head/shoulders and holding them down will get their minds off of it.

We only did half an hour, I didn’t want them to get on each others nerves too much. Leroy groomed Jeannie. Jeannie did not reciprocate. Leroy didn’t groom as much as usual, then again, he was also spending time exploring and doing his own thing since the bathroom floor is SO much more exciting than the bathtub  They did really well this time, no scuffles. At the end of the session, I went to go get them a baby carrot each, and rather than shut the door behind me, I left it open to see what they would do. Leroy knew to run home on his own, so away he went. Jeannie was a little slower to move, she followed me part way to the kitchen and then ran home when she saw I had a carrot for her. I was within earshot the entire time and hardly out of eye sight, so I wasn’t too worried about anything happening, but I wanted to see what they would do if I expanded their space a bit. MAYBE not the smartest thing to do, and I know I wasn’t following the usual bonding steps, but the way my apartment is set up, not much could have happened in the hallway and Iw as 2 steps away anyway, but hey, no one fought or even tried to fight, so it was encouraging 

[Monkeybun]

Swapping cages is also good cuz they start to get used to each others scent in THEIR living area, and not just in neutral areas

[Elrohwen]

I think it sounds like you’re making great progress! I’ve read enough of the bad bonding threads to think your experience is pretty good so far. And I agree with MB about continuing to swap cages. It sounds like they’re doing really well with each other.

[Barbie]

DAY 9

Had another hour long bonding session in the bathroom.  Again, nothing eventful.  Not much grooming from Leroy, none from Jeannie.  No fighting, they just kinda hung out.  I swapped the cages tonight.  It was also litter box duty tonight so I cleaned all the litter boxes but left the cages as they were (hay strewn about, fur, dirty towels and cat beds) and put a few of Leroy’s poops back in his box, same for Jeannie, so when I swapped cages, Leroy got Jeannie’s “used” litter box and vice versa, so they could get used to each other’s scent.

I’ll do nightly cage swaps as long as it goes well tonight.  We haven’t had a poop war yet, I’m really hoping the cage swapping doesn’t trigger anything.  I know they’ve both been in each others’ cages briefly before this when I’d let them both out and the bunny that stayed in the bedroom got into the other bunny’s cage (sneaky little buggers!) Nothing happened from those events.  *fingers crossed for no poop bombs tonight!*

At this point, how quickly can I move with them? Can I move to a larger area in say the living room? Or do I need to try to solidify their bond in the bathroom first? Obviously if things turn sour in a larger pen, I’ll move back to the bathroom or to the bathtub.  I think they’re ready for a bit more space.  However, I don’t want to undo what I’ve done so far, which is why I’m asking if it would be better to stay in the bathroom for awhile longer or to move on?  Should I do more bonding sessions in the bathroom and wait for Jeannie to give in and start grooming Leroy more, or is that something that might come in time?

 

[mrmac]

Nothing eventful= a success!!!!You can try just about anything! This is when bonding turns into a creative process. Try out different set ups. You know that they are ok in the bathroom so you can always return to that “positive” area. Just trying things until you find something that creates tension/stress for them to work through, or a situation that you see signs of progression in. You don’t need to wait for Jeannie to groom Leroy, it might just take her more time, the diva that she is! As you do more and more sessions she will become more trusting of him, it took a while for mine to start grooming.

[Barbie]

Oh yay! That’s good to hear. I have to do some laundry soon so if I change things up and it looks like they need some more stress bonding, I can always put them in a basket on top of the dryer

Last night went well. No one had a hissy fit when I swapped cages – at least not as far as I could tell – they let me sleep though the night.  Jeannie is a bit lax on her potty skills; she usually leaves a couple poops around when she’s out playing, so I was actually expecting her to make a mess in Leroy’s cage, but it turns out that it was Mr. Leroy! He pooped on Jeannie’s bed  It wasn’t too bad though, nothing I’d call a “poop bomb” it was just funny to see that Mr. Impeccable Potty Habits decided to leave a few presents for Jeannie and me. He did keep all his pee in his litter box, which was good.

This picture was from Tuesday’s bonding session (day 8) but I love the way it looks like Leroy is trying to save Jeannie from the big bad flashy thing! (camera) 

[Barbie]

DAY 10

WE HAVE ACHIEVED MUTUAL GROOMING!!!!

I blocked off the hallway tonight and let the little terrors loose there. I spent the first hour and 45 minutes sitting with them and playing mediator, but they really didn’t need me. Initially things were just going like usual (lot of grooming and the occasional nip from Leroy, no grooming from Jeannie), even though they’ve never been in the hallway together. I then gave them some banana and smeared some on Leroy’s head. Something about the banana I think did the trick. Jeannie happily ate her banana off his head and then set about cleaning him all up and picking at the bits of banana dried into his fur (left over from past bonding sessions… ick ). Both have laid down next to each other and just relaxed. Lots of happy flops. Both have been using the litter box. They even went and drank from the water bowl together! I will post videos and pix later (I’m supposed to be doing hw now, lol). Jeannie has been grooming Leroy much more throughout the night, and I’m pretty sure all the banana is gone, meaning she’s voluntarily grooming him! They’ve been taking turns grooming each other and it’s the cutest thing ever!!

Still have a bit of nipping/attempts at mounting/chasing, but it’s not bad, and I can break it up just by clapping at them and saying their names or “no!” in a loud, firm voice. This is looking so good! I’m THRILLED at the progress that we made tonight!

ETA: We ended the session at 3.5 hours.  They were starting to get on each other’s nerves I think.  Chasing each other.  They also wanted their evening veggies, so they were probably getting worked up over that.  And since I have homework to do, I just ended the session after a crazin each and after Leroy groomed Jeannie.

 

 

 

[Barbie]

I went back and added videos from Days 5-9, so go check those out if you’re interested

Also, I added pictures from yesterday.

DAY 11

I was brave today and expanded their space AGAIN.  I blocked off half of the living room and let them out there.  Things have been going FABULOUSLY.  Ok, so we still had two small tussles – nothing major – and Leroy tried to mount once, but…. it’s been SIX hours and we’re still going strong!  They have been snuggling, sharing the litter box (even though I gave them two), munching on veggies, and generally just acting like bunnies.  But now they’re both bunnies with a pal! 

Thier interaction is so much fun for me to watch.  Every time I glance over and see them snuggled up together I giggle.  They’re already getting into trouble together – pulling at the NIC fences to get behind it to the TV stand or to the rest of the living room.  It’s the cutest thing ever to watch Jeannie follow Leroy around, she is so in love with him! Jeannie has been grooming him a lot more, but still demanding lots of grooms from Leroy. 

The most hilarious thing is Leroy’s face when Jeannie does her binkies!  Since they had more space tonight, Jeannie was able to do her evening binkies during the bonding session… Leroy was SO startled when she started popcorning around the living room.  He doesn’t do binkies too frequently, but he did several tonight after he saw Jeannie doing them, so this is great!

I’ll continue to swap cages – I think that really accelerated the bonding process.  Tomorrow I’ll probably give them the whole living room if things continue this well.  When are they considered BONDED?  I know part of being bonded means that they live in the same area, so obviously we’re not there yet, but I’m confident that we’re close.  I think this weekend I’ll re arrange their crates and fashion a new home out of NIC cubes for them and try a sleep over. But do you guys think it would be too soon for that?

 

 

 

ETA: The session was 9 hours long – I wanted to let them stay out as long as possible, but man I have GOT to get some sleep

[Monkeybun]

OMG that first pic for day 10 is ADORABLE!!! They are doing sooo good. If they are doing so good after 9 hours together, I’d say you may as well try an overnight.. but if I were you, I’d camp out by their cage with a sleeping bag Although, I’m the person that camped out by the cages when we first brought Moose home, just in case the 2 freaked out having another bun in the same apartment >.>

[Beka27]

I love them! This sounds great! I agree, all the pics are precious, but that first pic on Day 10 with Jeannie flopped on her side… ohmygosh!!!!!

You know… if you ever decide buns are not for you… I live close by… I could take them in… I’d give them a good home, I promise! Lol…

[Deleted User]

Two lovebugs by the looks of it… caution is good, but then again you want to use the good vibes right now. –I would go with setting up a habitat this weekend to share for them. You will just have to stay home to supervise.

[Beka27]

I agree, once you get to this point you want to be cautious, but DECISIVE. They are going to need to have a 2-week solid “Bunnymoon” where they are together 24/7 to help cement that bond. There might still be a little chasing, a little show for dominance, but it’s important you stick it out so they don’t slide backwards.

[Lintini]

Yay!! I love the flopped Jeannie!! I’m so happy for you that they are doing so well together! They are such a great pair!

[Elrohwen]

Wow, fantastic! They’ve made such fast progress – I’m so proud of them! I bet Leroy’s so happy to have a little bunny friend 🙂

[Barbie]

DAYS 12 and 13

Well, I handed over the entire apartment to the bunnies yesterday afternoon – no more restricting them to half of the living room. AND… the love buns spent the night together last night. I rearranged their space for their sleep over, now their home is a combo of large dog crates and NIC cubes… 7.5’x2.5′ with a platform for a second level. I have to admit, I probably committed the biggest bonding faux pas ever when I bypassed the vinegar scrub down before putting them in their new home. The way I see it, they both spent time in both of the crates – I’d been switching crates daily for the past few days – so they’d be ok sharing the space together since their scent is already all over everything. Jeannie was the good, sweet, little girl that she always is, but Leroy was NOT pleased with the new arrangements. He thumped for an HOUR after I put them in the crate together, voicing his disapproval of me. The good thing is that they got along fine with each other over night, no tussles or anything. When I got up this morning, they were cuddled up together on the second level. (But Leroy peed and pooped in the cat bed that was Jeannie’s, lol, even though he hadn’t done that when we just swapped crates).

Today is day 13 and as I’m typing this (and all day long) the happy couple is snuggled up next to each other under the dining room table.

I have to leave for a few hours this evening, and even though they’ve been doing well and have been together since yesterday evening, I think I’m going to separate them (they’ll still be able to see/smell each other) while I’m gone tonight, and then put them back together for bed time when I come home. I don’t want to rush things too much, and the last thing I need is for them to fight and hurt each other when I’m gone. Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure that they will fight if I’m away for any length of time right now… When I was still bonding them in the tub, we worked up to a couple hours per session, but when I left to do some chores around the apartment, they started fighting… like little toddlers that only behave when mommy’s around, lol. We worked though that now, and now I’m fine to do whatever around here while they’re together, so I want to work on cementing their bond some more before I completely leave them home alone. Opinions? You don’t think that by separating them when I’m gone tonight will move us backwards do you?

Thanks for the nice comments everyone And Beka….nice try.

[Deleted User]

The first 48 hours of a new rabbit bond’s permanent live-in situation should be supervised consistently. I would definitely separate the two while you go out tonight. It won’t hurt the relationship.

[Barbie]

Yep I separated them before I left, and they’re out back out in the living room snuggling like usual.

[MirBear]

yay!!

*searches for poking stick, ahh hear it is, evil glares. i thought you knew the rule by now, PICS ARE A MUST AROUND HERE!*

[Barbie]

Hahaha! Did you not scroll up and check out the two earlier posts on page three and go back to watch the vids from days 1-9?

Lol. I’ll post a couple more…

 

 

[Monkeybun]

but those are from days 1-9.. not today

[MirBear]

i saw them all but i mean pics of the newly weds and their bunny home

[Kiley Rose]

They are just too too cute!

[Barbie]

And another from yesterday…..

They do share litterboxes, but I always give them two.  They chose to each take one this time since I had just put new hay in

\

 

For their home, I put together their two dog crates… Sorry about the mess, I had JUST gotten things set up when I took the picture.  I added extra length to their space by using the cage doors and NIC grids.  When I get another tarp, I’ll be able to epxpand their space some more.  It’s hard to tell in the picture, but the set up is over 7.5′ long. They’re out most of the day anyway.   I think I might switch to a large x-pen eventually – the crates are kinda hard to clean, but the one crate was free from my parents, and I got the other one fairly inexpensively off of Craigslist.  They like it

And there’s a second door on the side of the crate that the bunnies are sitting in in the picture.  So it’s easy to let them in and out.

 

And have you all seen this one? I think it’s funny. I posted it in the lounge the other day…. Jeannie jumped into the trashcan all on her own! 

[Beka27]

What a neat idea to combine the two dog crates! Altho I agree, cleaning will be SOOOO much easier with an xpen that you can physically walk into.

[Barbie]

Just an update on how the love bugs are doing now…. I don’t want to jinx it, but… they are well on their way to being completely bonded! They spend the nights together, and I always let them out to play when I’m home. I still separate them when I have to leave, but eventually this week, I’ll try some hour long alone sessions when I’m running errands or something. In the past three days: no fighting (as far as I can tell), only a couple instances of mounting (BOTH were trying to mount each other), lots of grooming and following each other around.

The one downside to all this has been that Leroy has lost some of his litter box habits. Anyway, SOMEONE is leaving poops all around their litter boxes and in their cat beds in their cage. I think it’s both of them. I’m really hoping that they give that up soon. The poops are contained within a 1 ft radius of the boxes, and in the course of several hours, they only leave me 10-20 poops. They’ve done well with keeping the pee in the litter boxes though, so I suppose I can’t complain too much. I just toss the poops back in the box and spritz around some vinegar/water.

[Barbie]

I think it’s safe to say that they are now bonded! They spend all their time together and over the weekend and the first part of this week, I worked up to housing them together 24/7. Today I left them home alone for 4 hours, and I came back to this:

Yayyy!!! I would say that they were bonded by day 12. Since then we’ve just been working on solidifying their bond. Today is day 17. As long as nothing goes sour now, then I’m done!!!

I was to make a list of some bonding basics that I picked up along the way. I think some of these tips REALLY made the bonding process easy

Tips for bonding:

• If you have the opportunity, take your current bunny “dating” at your local shelter or HRS.  That way they can pick their new friend.
  • Good signs on a first date are: ignoring each other, sniffing, no fighting, grooming
  • Bad signs: fighting, excessive mounting, thumping, growling, teeth grinding
  • Once your bunnies have picked each other, you still need to proceed with the bonding with caution, even if they had a very good first meeting.
• Start bonding with short sessions (20-30 minutes) two, or even three times a day.
  • Repetition, consistency, and high frequency of bonding sessions are very important and are more effective than one long session daily
• Start the initial bonding sessions in a completely neutral territory, like the bath tub
• Make sure to wear heavy gloves in case a fight breaks out and you need to separate the bunnies
• Fights tend to start when the bunnies are positioned butt to face, so until they become more comfortable with each other, always prevent the bunnies from approaching each other from behind.
• Also, the litter box is prime ground for a fight, so if you are going to provide a litter box during the bonding sessions (you probably don’t even need to bother during the first few short bonding sessions) make sure that only one bunny is in the litter box at a time.
• Fights can break out very quickly, so even when things seem to be going well, stay very alert until their bonding sessions progress to more calm waters.
• If you seem to be stuck in a rut:
  • and things are going well but not progressing (ie, one bunny grooms but the other doesn’t) move to a larger area like a small pen.
  • and things are going badly (ie: fighting, excessive mounting) try stress bonding such as putting them in a laundry basket on top of the running washer, in a carrier in the car – with someone to drive so you can mediate, in a box or NIC cub that you can shake around
• Once you find an area that the bunnies do well together in (ie, the bathtub) and you progress to a larger area, you can always return to the area that you had success in if things go sour.
• Try to keep yourself calm during the bonding sessions – the bunnies pick up on your vibes and your positive feelings will have a positive impact on their bonding session (and likewise with negative/stressed/frustrated vibes).
• Always always always end the session on a good note (such as ignoring each other, snuggling, or grooming, based on their stage in the bonding process)
  • even if it means holding both bunnies firmly on their shoulders so they can’t attack each other and then shove them together so they’re sitting side by side and touching. Pet them a little so they get some positive reinforcement and hold them there for as long as they’ll let you. Forced into that snuggling position or not, the way I see it, touching and not fighting is a “good note”
• As their bond progresses, you can work up to sessions that are several hours long.
• When you trust them together, you can go about your business, checking in on them every so often.
• Once you’ve expanded their access to 100% of their permanent space, then you can work on putting them together for the night, and then putting them together 24/7.
• For the first 48 hours of their bond, bunnies should be monitored at all times.

Also, for those who are wondering about their first rabbit’s personality changing: Leroy’s personality and my bond with him have not changed one bit. If anything he’s more outgoing and CLOSER to me now. He still grooms me like before (but not it’s not that annoying incessant licking like he used to do), and he follows me around the apartment like a puppy even more than he did before. Jeannie sees Leroy spending time with me, so she follows suit and approaches me too for pets, so that has helped her bond with me. Both are very happy, and now that I’ve gotten Jeannie and they are bonded I am so glad I did it. It’s so much fun to have two bunnies to watch and as well as Leroy has bonded with me, nothing can replace a rabbit-rabbit bond.

[MirBear]

you forgot 1:
NEVER attempt to bond unaltered bunnies! its awful

[Deleted User]

Posted By MirBear on 03/03/2010 02:18 PM
you forgot 1:
NEVER attempt to bond unaltered bunnies! its awful

 

ditto that!

I will add another: don’t assume your rabbits will bond in 12 days… I think Battie on here has been at it for 8 months!

[Barbie]

Mir bear… oh yeah, great point! I just assumed that one cus I got both of them from the shelter so they were fixed already.

Petzy, yes, I got lucky…. I am SO thankful that they had an easy bond

[jerseygirl]

Congratulations Barbie! They make a sweet pair – enjoy!

[Beka27]

Another thing that I always found worked for me is using my “stern voice” if they started to seem agitated with each other. A firm “No!” can distract them from lunging if done at the exact right moment.

[Barbie]

Oh yes, I used that all the time

And the mashed banana on the head works to help jumpstart the grooming.

Oh and, I usually let the bunnies out for a few hours each before starting the bonding sessions, especially when we were still bonding in the bath tub and there was no room for them to stretch their legs and binky.

[Barbie]

Thanks Jersey! I think they look adorable together too! They’re really starting to cement their bond. It’s been a week since I put them together for their first sleep over. Now they’re rarely out of sight of each other…. when one wanders off the other follows. And they spend lots of time snuggling together under the dining room table – their favorite spot.

I did all 36 nails last night in half an hour and didn’t quick anyone! I think the entire process went much more smoothly because the bunny that was getting their nails clipped had their buddy hanging around. Jeannie was QUITE the little helper, climbing all over my lap when I was holding Leroy… even tried to steal the clippers a couple times! I also tried holding them a little differently so they had less room to struggle/squirm away. I held them like a baby on their backs (it’s the only way to do it when I don’t have a helper). Head tucked in my left elbow and clippers in my right hand. It worked much better then when i tried to lay them on their backs on my lap, head towards my knees.

[Author]

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