Bitey bunny

[hoptimal]

I am trying to bond my male Charles (about 7, neutered last October) with Lucy (about 1, spayed). They got along great meeting in a neutral location but since bringing her back to my apartment Charles has tried to bite her. Not surprising considering they were in a room he considered his territory when this happened. It’s been 2 weeks since they’ve been in a duplex arrangement and I got stuffies to put in each of the pens and swap out to mix each other’s scents. Last night I was so excited that it was finally time for their first date. I fenced off my kitchen (a neutral area), put them in their carriers, put the carriers at opposite ends of the space, and let them out. Charles wasted no time in lunging at Lucy and nipping her! I got my handy broom and separated them but he did it again right away. I decided to just end the date not knowing what else I could do. Should I even try again today? Does this mean they’re not going to bond or is it fairly normal? : (Charles always seemed interested in other bunnies in a non aggressive way but apparently he’s got another side I didn’t know about! Is there anything else I can be doing? I don’t have any experience bonding rabbits but I’m working with the local HRS on it. They told me I should have emergency wine on hand during bonding and now I can see why!

(Also, the 2 weeks there were living next to each other was not continuous. They were together a week, then I went out of town and put Lucy back in foster care because I knew I’d be too worried about something happening with a petsitter who wasn’t that experienced with rabbits, then they were together another week before the date.)

[DanaNM]

Hi there

I would recommend swapping full cages (which bun is in which) rather than just the stuffies. You really want them to get used to each other’s scents. How do they behave towards each other through the fence? Ideally you’ll want to do cage swaps until they seem relaxed towards each other through the fence, and don’t seem phased by the swap.

I’m also wondering if your kitchen maybe isn’t quite neutral enough (being able to smell home turf can impact things), or you should try some stressing. Basically try to replicate the conditions in the first first meeting. Did you adopt her from the HRS you are working with? They might let you use some of their exercise pens for bonding sessions (mine has).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hoptimal]

Hi, thanks for answering! I did see advice to just move the buns between pens. The local HRS had said they didn’t really think it was necessary but it sure seems like it could be now, ha. They are mostly relaxed with each other through the fence (laying down, grooming etc). Sometimes Charles will jump if Lucy makes a sudden movement or loud noise, and vice versa, but it’s mostly Charles that is more jumpy. When one is out for exercise the other that is still in a pen will typically hop around “following” the other from inside the pen. They also sniff each other on a regular basis through the fences during exercise time (it is a double pen setup for each so there can’t be any biting).

I haven’t adopted her because of not being sure how the bonding would go. So are you saying I should try to put them together somewhere other than my apartment for a date?

[DanaNM]

You’re welcome!

I’ve noticed some rescues don’t have strong opinions on pre-bonding. I think when you have perfectly neutral territory to work with, it matters a bit less. But I have noticed it help, and lots of members here have also noticed big improvements with longer pre-bonding. The relaxed behaviors are good. The following through the fence is borderline. Basically shows that they are concerned with that rabbit being near the border of their territory. The jumpy-ness seems like the same type of thing. So a bit more swapping might help.

And yes, I have a small apartment too. Even areas where neither bunny has physically been still smell like home, and smells are very important to buns. So, before making the call as to whether to keep trying, I would just try to have another session in a completely foreign place. If that’s not an option you could try a car ride with them and see if that helps (my first pair fought on sight and car rides got us past that phase). Have someone else drive, you pop the buns in a plastic bin and sit in the backseat with them. Make sure they don’t start nipping and scrapping in the bin. Drive around with them for 10-15 min. If the first time goes well, repeat this for a few days in a row. just make sure they arent getting too stressed by it. they should return to normal within an hour or so after the ride. I usually time my cage swaps so I just return them to opposite cages after a bonding session.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hoptimal]

Before making the call as to whether to keep trying? : ( So you think that this means I should be seriously concerned as to whether this bonding will work?

[Doodler]

Hi Hoptimal!  I am far from an expert but thought I would hop in here to give you some insight into my experiences that I hope might help.

I have only attempted two bondings in my lifetime.   The first time was with my current buck and another buck who sadly passed away before we could finish the bonding.  With my boys they started with immediately fighting.  I had done litter box and stuffy swaps for a month before I even introduced them but quickly realized I needed to step things up.  I ended up switching what pen they were in every 24 hours for another 2 weeks and this made a world of difference.  I tried to avoid doing this full swap because one of them was free roam in their own room. 

I am currently on day 20 of my second attempt and my buck also started with trying to nip and chase my new doe when I let them in a pen together.   When I started out with prebonding this time he would run the fence and even growl at times.  I don’t think your case is hopeless at all.  Of course nothing is a guarantee and it does take a lot of work and patience.  Sometimes it also requires mixing things up to see what works best. 

What also made my first attempt more difficult is that when one buck nipped the other buck would attack.  For my current situation when my buck nipped the doe would run away.   This was by far easier to deal with.  Obviously how one reacts to the other in a negative situation like this will give clues on how compatible or easy it might be.  I have been trying to get my buck a friend for a year so I have done a lot of research.   I have read a lot of stories that sound very similar to yours.  Bonding experts tend to agree that almost any two bunnies can be bonded eventually.    

I definitely think it’s worth continuing to try but like DanaNM said you may want to try a different location and also do full pen swaps if you haven’t started that already.  I started my first bonding in a tub because that is what so many people recommend.  It didn’t go well at all.  I had thick gloves on and still got a nasty bite from an angry bun.  I found an NIC cube helped me to start because I felt I had more control.  I then went into a what was almost a double size pen and this combination seemed to work great.  They were able to get away from each other when they felt it was necessary but I was also able to use a dust pan to stop any negative interaction when they got close.  Please also don’t get discouraged if they have bad days with each other.  Just like us they have good and bad days.  Trust me they can also be very confusing and it can get very frustrating .  Good luck with this adventure!

[DanaNM]

I didn’t mean to imply it was hopeless at all! I just wasn’t sure how long you had to decide about whether you were going to adopt her. I was thinking you might need to decide soon, so a different location might give you a better idea of how things would go.

The fact that they went after each other right away in what you thought was neutral suggested to me that you should try something different, not necessarily that it was a hopeless case. (My first pair, in my avatar, fought at first too, and stress sessions got us past that phase). Either stress, a new spot, a bigger space, a smaller space, etc. If something doesn’t work (and very clearly doesn’t), no need to keep trying that method.

You might just ask the rescue if they are fine with you fostering for a few weeks before deciding, so you can be more sure whether you’ll be able to bond them. Heck, my rescue let me foster Bun Jovi until he and Bertha were completely bonded, which was several months!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hoptimal]

Thank you both so much! And thanks for clarifying DanaNM, I’m just so worried it might not work I’m probably paranoid and reading into statements too much. Luckily the HRS is very understanding of how unpredictable the bonding process is and I’m not getting any pressure from them to decide on adopting.

Bun Jovi!?!?! I love it.

Doodles, your stories make me feel a lot better that this is normal! I’m totally new to this so I don’t have much frame of reference.

[Doodler]

Oh I am so glad my story helped! I know I took comfort in hearing stories that confirmed what I was experiencing was normal and not a lost cause. Please be sure to keep us posted on how things are going!

[DanaNM]

Yes, Bun Jovi! He came to me with that name, so I can’t take credit! He hasn’t made it into my signature yet, but he is quite the character!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hoptimal]

Well, Saturday I had a date with them that made me feel more hopeful, in the bathroom this time. I had a barrier up considering how last time went. They sniffed each other through it and the first couple of times Lucy boxed at Charles but Charles didn’t display any aggression. After that all the sniffing was without aggression and I ended the date after about 5 minutes, wanting to end it on a high note.

Tonight was a different story. I had the date in the bathroom with a barrier up again. They mostly ignored each other at first, and they sniffed each other without aggression. I decided to try removing the barrier. At first that seemed ok but then Lucy started boxing Charles and he started being aggressive back. I put a broom between them and let them come together again to see what would happen. Another boxing from Lucy. Poor Charles went back into his carrier with his butt facing Lucy. When he came back out Lucy boxed him again. I guess I shouldn’t have taken the barrier down. I’ve heard that with bunnies it all comes down to the girl, and now that Lucy is being aggressive suddenly I’m feeling very discouraged again. Is that true that if the girl starts being aggressive the chances of the bonding working out get a lot worse? I am going to be taking them to meet with the HRS both so they can be in a totally neutral area again and the volunteers at HRS can observe them together, on Thursday. Probably won’t try a date again before then.

[DanaNM]

I would try a very large space. Small spaces work for some buns, but in my experience the more freely they can move around, the less threatened they feel. ‘

I would also do more pre-bonding, since i think you’ve only done about a week of swaps? Or maybe less? With harder bonds it’s even more important to go slowly.

I’m guessing that in a bathtub with a carrier and barrier, they probably didn’t have much space to move and likely felt pretty cornered. Bunnies (and all animals really) fight out of fear, so if you can build trust between them they won’t feel the need to fight.

If you try them again, when they come together, start petting them immediately and swap scents. Try to keep them calm (and keep yourself calm).

But yeah, I would do more pre-bonding first, and wait till you have a larger space to work with.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hoptimal]

I’ve done about a week. I didn’t put them in the bathtub, they were roaming around the whole bathroom. My apartment is really small so the bathroom and kitchen are really my only options for neutral territory and the kitchen didn’t go well the last time. I will keep the tip to pet them both in mind!

If I wait until I have a larger space to work with, I’ll never make any progress because my apartment is the only option.

[Author]

Messages