Basil and Libby- Just can’t get along!

[Cereal_Killer]

Hi,

 As many others here, I’m having some bonding issues, and I have some questions.

 

First, a little background: I have a large Palomino (maybe) bunny named Basil that I have had for about a year and a half. I took her in after she was abandoned in a housing development near my job. LBB (Libby) is the new bunny, she’s much smaller than Basil, she appears to be a mini sized Havana (oh boooooy is she soft as a cloud).

 

 

 

About a month ago, I got Basil spayed and a week after that, I took in a second bun, another female, who had likewise been abandoned, and was either coming home with me, or living alone in a teeny cage to be used for kids education programs. I got her spayed almost as soon as I got her, so she’s been spayed for about 3 weeks. I know the situation isn’t ideal, seeing as a) Basil didn’t get to ‘date’ and is being forced into trying to bond, b) My apartment is small, and I had to put Libby in a cage in Basil’s territory, which means Basil sees her as an interloper, and c)Two females as far as I have read are not ideal.

 

Basil has kind of been boxing at Libby’s cage since we got her, but I’ve been quick to stop it, and this week, I decided to try bonding the two of them together in my bedroom (neutral territory) to try and minimize the bad behavior quickly. Well…. So far it has NOT been going well. They seem to do OK when they’re in the tub, but as soon as I put them on carpet after two fairly successful tub sessions… Well… Fur flew. Libby got a little cut on her ear. I tried back in the tub, they did fine, eating and grooming around each other, and then carpet again, they were doing OK, and then BAM. Circling, nipping, and near fight. So then I gave them a day off to cool off, and tried stress bonding them in a box on the washing machine. They were doing awesome, snuggling up together for almost 10 minutes, until Basil decided she wasn’t scared anymore, and I ended up with a bit hand. I calmed them down, and ended on a fairly good note.

 

Basically, what I’ve been seeing has been Libby doing a lot of flattening down in front of Basil, begging for some love, and Basil completely unimpressed, but generally not begging for attention from Libby. I try to pet Libby a bit to make her not get so mad when Basil ignores her, but eventually, Libby tries to nip Basil, and then it goes downhill, even if I stop the nip. The thing I have a hard time figuring out is that it seems to go from “not besties, but not hating each other, but grooming, eating, and even sometimes stretching out” to “Kill, kill kill” in like, 10 seconds. There’s been no mounting. I think I may have seen Basil groom Libby once, but it wasn’t super gentle, more like soft nips to the top of Libby’s head.

 So I guess I have a few questions:

1) Are hormones likely still an issue? How long will it still be in their systems? If they still are raging, should I put bonding on pause for another couple weeks, and will I likely have better luck?

2) Am I right to stop the fight, or do I need to let them tussle to sort out who is top banana?

3) What is submissive bunny posture exactly? I’m not sure whether Libby is goading Basil or not when she puts her head down for grooming?

4) I can tell this is going to be tough, I’ve tried a bunch of the tips I’ve found around the internet, but no cigar so far. Does anyone have experience with a tough bonding? Did it work? Any tips?

[MoveDiagonally]

It can take 4-6 weeks for hormones to completely dissipate after spays/neuters. So they may be playing a part but no one can say for sure. If you want to eliminate the possibility of hormones complicating the situation then you could put bonding on hold for 1-3 weeks.

They need to figure out who’s boss but you don’t want them to fight it out. That will likely lead to injuries. My intervention guidelines:
Growling, lunging, face/backwards humping, biting – Immediate intervention
Chasing, fur pulling – They get a few moments to resolve it on their own and then I intervene.
Humping – I let them hump for a bit and then gently push off the humping bunny. This lets the humper feel dominant without aggravating the humpee.

Putting her head down for grooming is a demand and is usually considered a dominant behavior. She might be nipping because she’s irritated that she’s not being groomed. For situations like that you can try the “banana trick” which is where you take some mushed banana and smear a bit on their heads so they “groom” each other.

In tough bonding situations stress bonding is usually helpful. Have you tried or looked into stress bonding at all?

[Cereal_Killer]

Hi! Thanks for the info… I did try stressing them by setting them in a box on top of a washer, but maybe it wasn’t stressful enough? It worked for about 10 minutes, and then all hell broke loose and I separated them, then put them in the tub until the went back to ignoring each other/ only having minor tiff’s. The weird thing is in the tub they will do positive things like lie down, eat, and groom themselves, but on the carpet, pure fighting. Maybe. I need to keep them in the tub for a while?

[MoveDiagonally]

One stress method I used in the beginning of bonding my trio was a laundry basket in a neutral area. I put them both in and if any aggression arose I would shake/jostle/drag stress them out for a minute or so and then continue on with the session. I would repeat this whenever they were aggressive. It seemed to help teach them that aggression would not benefit them at all.

Another method I liked a lot for stressing and portable bonding involved using a NIC cube. It’s very versatile. You can shake/jostle, carry it, take it in the car, set in on the washer, take it outside, move it anywhere, and/or suspend it.

Is the carpeted area completely neutral? Smell hangs out in carpet a lot longer so could that be an issue? You could sprinkle baking soda on the carpet, let it sit, and then vacuum it up to remove any lingering territorial smells if that is a concern. It also could be that they have more traction on the carpet then in the tub which makes it easier for them to fight.

[Cereal_Killer]

Hmmm. The carpeted area should be mostly neutral, its in part of the apartment Baz isn’t allowed in, though she has gotten in there once or twice, so maybe it was enough for her to think it’s hers. I do have a friend with a fenced yard, so I may set up my puppy pen in her yard. I would try on my porch, but I have nightmares of one of them getting loose and running off to get eaten by coyotes in the desert!

[LittlePuffyTail]

If I were you, I would wait a few weeks before doing any more bonding to be sure their hormones have calmed down. It’s not fair to them and a lot of stress for you to try to bond bunnies that may be still dealing with territorial issues caused by hormones. At least, if you wait you can rule hormones out and know what you are really dealing with.

[Cereal_Killer]

Thanks for the answers! Not exactly sure what happened, but yesterday out of nowhere after having to break up a scuffle, Basil out of nowhere did a dead bunny flop, and since then even on carpet they’re not doing much more than some chasing and some very minor nipping. I have no idea what happened though, it was hate to “meh ” in 5 minutes! They’re still not going to be moved to the shared/ non neutral space until I’m sure this truce lasts!

[tanlover14]

You really should bond for quite some time before heading to “shared” territory. If you move too quickly it will most likely only cause problems between the two again. Be prepared to take it very slow and easy – don’t jump the gun!

Gorgeous buns by the way!

[Cereal_Killer]

Yeah, for the time being they are stuck in neutral territory… they spent the evening binkying around and chasing each other… I am pretty sure it was all in fun, since they took turns and stopped to binky… I kinds wish they could have more space, but we have a one bedroom, and the boxspring is hollow so i cant let them out of the hallway. I’m happy they are being so friendly, even if i can’t for the life of me figure out how they turned their relationship around so quickly!

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