Baby & Adult Bonding?

[Ophelia]

Before anyone suggests I skip the whole baby idea, and get an adult from a rescue, while I appreciate your efforts, i’d really like to just get a baby that is well adjusted and I know has been handled, and doesn’t carry any baggage.  

Maybe when i’m older i’ll rescue, but for now it’s out of the question 

 

 I have one bunny named Ivy, she is a 4 1/2 pound mini rex whom just got spayed recently, and is 1 year of age.

She’ll be healed by the time the baby comes home.

I am getting another bunny near the end of this month, going to see the litter next week and choose one. I’m definitely choosing a boy, because from what i’ve heard girl bunnies are known to be harder to bond to each other. I know ideally I would have gotten a male first, but this is what I have to work with 

 

Now, i’ve gotten, if you will, a ‘mixed basket’ when it comes to how people view baby and adult bonding. I’ve seen it said that babies are generally submissive, adults will beat up the baby, there’s not a point to trying to bond until the baby grows up, and probably 1,000 other ideas on the matter. 

In case it really doesn’t work out, or if it’s not a good idea while he’s little, I do have a cage that’s quite spacious, waiting in the cellar and unoccupied.

One of the reasons i’m getting another bunny, aside from the fact that I am absolutely crazy about them, is Ivy really seems to want the company. She tries to befriend the cats, snuggle with our aging mini poodle (who has cataracts and gets surprised and irritated when a bunny is suddenly practically on her head), and she seems to be quite protective of the guinea pigs, sitting in a corner with them, standing on her hind legs scanning the terrain for danger. She is very sweet and loves all our critters. It appears she’s trying to find a friend 

Now, my questions are:

1. What is your take on baby and adult bonding?

2. How old should a baby be before it’s around an adult such as Ivy? 

3. Should I go about to gain it’s trust for a couple weeks before introductions?

4. Is there a point to bonding them before the baby gets neutered?

Any help would be much appreciated. I’m planning on getting his neuter done as soon as it’s possible, I wish we hadn’t held out so long with Ivy, but at least it’s done. I don’t want him going all ‘let’s have babies’ on poor Ivy, so at the first sign of sexual maturity, he’s going under the knife 

[Beka27]

1. What is your take on baby and adult bonding?

50/50. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. If it doesn’t work, a bad experience can make it harder to bond them later on.

2. How old should a baby be before it’s around an adult such as Ivy?

Spay/neuter first.

3. Should I go about to gain it’s trust for a couple weeks before introductions?

Gaining a baby’s trust will be an ongoing process. Babies are more of a mystery than an adult rabbit, because their personality is not formed yet. Because of this, you are more limited. You cannot pick a baby who will match you because you have no idea what they will be like when they are older. And how much they are handled as a baby has no bearing whatsoever on if they will tolerate it as an adult. You may want to do some more research on baby vs. adult because some of your info is incorrect. You seem pretty set on a baby, which is fine, but I just want you to have realistic expectations. I am assuming you got your first rabbit as a baby?

4. Is there a point to bonding them before the baby gets neutered?

Not really. It can be very dangerous if they fight (one or both can end up needed emergency vet care) and as I mentioned, it can damage the bond later on.

[Beka27]

Have you contacted rescues and seen if any of them may have babies available for adoption? Or put your name on a list? Female rabbits come into rescues pregnant all the time. The rescue may even off reduced rate spay/neuter or a credit towards the surgery.

[Deleted User]

Many very young kits will take to an adult bunny because they have not established themselvers separately from their nest yet, so that they seek out an adult rabbit. Your rabbit may like or dislike this. If she accepts the kit it may seem like an instant bond but you would need to separate them regardless, around the time that hormones in the kit start to emerge. Therefore bonding very young kits with adults is a lengthier task. You say you don’t want the “baggage” of an adult rescue bun; what about an 18-week old kit who is already neutered? Shelters often get in pregnant does/entire litters and will keep them and alter them at 4 months. A rabbit at that age would already show some of his personality but would not come from a “baggage” background. He would also be young enough for you to raise him.

[Ophelia]

Thank you for the tips, i’ll think over it. As I said, Ivy has a rather sweet and friendly disposition, so i’ll see how it goes.
As for getting Ivy as a baby, i’ve had her since she was 6 1/2 weeks old.

At this point, I am completely 100% sure I am getting a bunny from this breeder-so while I appreciate your efforts,
i’m trying to get information on bonding a baby to an adult, not information about where to get rescue bunnies 

And…if a bunny is handled from a young age and treated nicely, it is calmer and more receptive to human handling.
If you could point me to somewhere that states my information is incorrect, that would be lovely.
I do not want to be under-educated about what I am doing.

Thank you for your replies!

[Karla]

This is actually a really interesting question. In the wild, young bunnies will almost always be accepted if they join a strange colony. So basically, it should not cause problems to get a baby. That is my take on it, but I have no practical experience.

A thing I have been wondering about is this: here it is common to neuter kittens at the age of 12 weeks. This is done to prevent any behaviourial issues, to prevent unwanted litter and because the younger, the quicker they heal. So isn’t it possible to neuter a bunny before hormones kick in, like when they are 3 months?

[Deleted User]

Yes, some people do prepubertal neutering but it is believed by some to have negative effects on skeletal development.
Keep in mind that in the wild kits are born into the warren, not placed into a herd at 10 weeks of age.
I hope it works out, Ophelia, young kits are very enchanting and if you introduce your female in neutral territory it may work out just fine. Watch for the time that the kit’s hormones are due to set in and you will be able to prevent a falling out.

[Deleted User]

…unless Karla you are talking about another thing… you say kits join herds? Please explain. I have not bought those research papers yet… and I think I may be out of the loop… LOL

[Karla]

In my “bible”, Lockley describes how young rabbits are kicked out of their colony because of lack of ressources eg. and have to find a new colony. New colonies will at most times accept these young ones, but not so often grown-ups.

When you talk about the effect on skeletal development, is this based on dogs or small pets as well? I know it is something to consider for dogs, but I have been trying to ask questions before if this also applies for bunnies? I remember having tried to start a discussion about this, because if we should apply the same knowledge to rabbits then we should actually not neuter them before they are fully grown (which I have no idea when is??). I’d really like to know if it applies for rabbis as well, because I might just go for a baby as well next time.

[Ophelia]

I’ll check with my vet on how early I can get bunny-to-be neutered, he is quite rabbit savvy and recommended by the HRS.
Ideally, if it wouldn’t/won’t cause development issues, i’d like to nip it in the bud, and make sure it’s impossible for them to fall out due to puberty-related issues. I’ve noticed since after her spay, she’s already much less territorial; although obviously they’ll be introduced on neutral grounds.

My goal would be to get him neutered at three months if it’s possible, for the reasons Karla stated.
But I don’t want to hurt his growth in any way either

Thank you for the replies

[Deleted User]

Most vets will alter a rabbit just as soon as the rabbit can handle undergoing anaesthesia.
I don’t know of any rabbit-specific study on prepubertal sterilization, but it is a fact that hormones play a role in the development of bones, ligaments etc., across species.

[Ophelia]

Well…I know plenty a puppy who is neutered/spayed at eight weeks old, at the animal shelter my sisters volunteer at, all puppies are spayed by 10 weeks, and they certainly are not sexually mature, at all. So i’ll see if I can dig anything up on the subject matter when it comes to rabbits

[Otti]

I’ve heard many times before on this board that neutering/spaying rabbits can affect their pre-neuter/spay bonds, and therefore often the rabbits need to be re-bonded post neuter/spay anyways.

I’d think the most cautious/rational way to do it would be to keep the rabbits separated until the male is of age to be neutered (probably around 4 months or later) and then introduce the rabbits once the male’s hormones had died down in full (about a month or so after the neuter I believe).

If I got a second rabbit as a baby, that’s how I would opt to do it. Less of a headache trying to figure out if it will/won’t work and if it/isn’t the right time. No worry that you might have to re-do it all again possibly post-alteration, and also no chance that the kit might get hurt if pre-neutering bonding does not work or you don’t separate in time before the kit’s hormones kick in.

[cactuspancake]

Hey I just got my first bunny and I got him from a really reputable breeder… she registered the giant angora breed… anyway Franz came with all sorts of health issues that I had no idea. He had coccidia, upper respiratory infection, eye issues, and he apparently wasn’t fed hay at all either. So far I have spent… over $800 on my bunny’s health and I’ve only had him for 9 weeks. I’ve always had a weird feeling about shelters because I was afraid (and still am) of getting an animal that is emotionally messed up from being abused and didn’t want to deal with the baggage. If I could do it all over again I would call around for baby angoras and wait till a shelter got one in. I just wanted to warn you about what happened to me. My breeder was super nice too… she had so many friendly bunnies. I almost went to New Hampshire to get a 3 yr. old Flemish Giant off of her. I’m super upset that people put bunnies in crowded conditions sometimes when they sell them! I think getting a baby bunny off of craigslist even would be better. I don’t know anything about bonding lol but I just wanted to save you the heartache

[cactuspancake]

Posted By Ophelia on 12/13/2010 02:03 PM
Well…I know plenty a puppy who is neutered/spayed at eight weeks old, at the animal shelter my sisters volunteer at, all puppies are spayed by 10 weeks, and they certainly are not sexually mature, at all. So i’ll see if I can dig anything up on the subject matter when it comes to rabbits

My triple board certified bun saavy vet approved Franz for spaying when he came in for his first visit at just over 8 wks old. She said as soon as the testicles drop, and their health checks out great that they’re good to go. Unfortunately franz is going on 17 weeks and I still can’t get him neutered because he’s not healthy… He keeps peeing on me it’s getting annoying

[Deleted User]

I wrote to biologist and renowned rabbit researcher Dana Krempels about this and she recommends to wait with the females especially because of a loss in bone density that is associated with early spays.

[Deleted User]

Ophelia, I hope it works out well for your rabbit, that the one you pick will make a good match! Keep us posted.

[Ophelia]

The good news is, it’s going to be a neuter this time around, and from what i’ve read, boys are fine when neutered at 3 – 3 1/2 months.
I’m going to try to get him neutered around then, and with it being so soon after Ivy’s spay (o___O 350 bucks) i’ve offered to give 125 dollars of my money towards it, since I still live at home, if my Mom agrees to get it done about a month after he comes home :3

I will let you guys know how it works out, i’m going to visit the babies sometimes this week, just waiting to hear back from the breeder :]

[Otti]

Hi Ophelia,

Just doing some quick research online I found various rabbit rescue organizations citing this passage regarding early neutering:

The best age to neuter is shortly after sexual maturity. Depending on the breed, this could range from 4 to 6 months and with giant breeds up to possibly 9 months. If the rabbit is neutered much younger than 4 months of age, not only is the surgery more difficult due to the immature condition of the reproductive organs (in males the testicles might not even be descended into the scrotal sacs prior to three months) but we do not know what the long term effect is on the endocrine system of the body. The reproductive organs are part of an interconnecting system of hormone producing organs including the thyroid, pituitary, pancreas and adrenal. If we remove a large “chunk” of the endocrine system before it is done developing, we suspect there could be long term effects on the health of the rabbit. This has been studied in mice and rats where ill effects have been found with early neutering, but as yet has not been researched in rabbits. For the pet rabbit, there is really no good reason to neuter your rabbit before it is mature.

I guess ‘much younger’ could mean 2 months, rather than 3, but if there was any risk that neutering before 4 months could have adverse effects on my rabbit’s growth, I would wait. From what this paragraph suggests, they still have not researched possible negative side effects of early neutering in rabbits, so there’s really no way to know. Therefore, better safe than sorry.

[Otti]

Here it’s from an article by Susan Brown that can be found at this website:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=489

This one seems to be a slight variation from the article above, but by the same author on the Chicago HRS website:

http://www.hrschicago.org/neuterfr.html

[Ophelia]

Well, i’ll certainly see what my vet things-he’ll tell me if the bunny is ready to be neutered or not. Thank you, the information is quite helpful

They ARE generalizing both male and female rabbits when they say neuter, and from what i’ve learned, males should be neutered 3 -5 months of age, females 4 -6 months of age :3

[Otti]

I don’t think they’re generalizing males and females since they specifically mention testicles and scrotal sacs lol

[Otti]

Btw, I neutered my rabbit at 4 months,but if i had had this information, barring any horrible behavior on his part, I think I would have waited till 5 or 6 just to be reduce as much as possible any risk of adverse effects in terms of his development. He was pulling up more carpet than usual and getting a little fiestier around 4 months, but nothing unmanageable.

That’s considering, however, that I don’t have an unaltered female he risks impregnating, and that I’m not looking to bond him with another rabbit as soon as possible.

But anyways, yeah obviously see what your vet says

[Ophelia]

If you’re talking about me, my female bunny is actually altered, I just don’t want excess spraying/humping/etc.

Seeing as they use female bunnies and male bunnies in the same sentence, I they were, to me, generalizing when they said 4-6 months,
because at that point they haven’t specified genders, and male bunnies hit sexual maturity a month or so before females

I don’t think my vet will push it if he’s too little to have the surgery, and since he needs to have a check up prior to the surgery anyway,
i’ll just ask and we’ll go from there. He loves bunnies and is very sweet, well worth the cost ;o

[Beka27]

Posted By Ophelia on 12/14/2010 04:09 PM

I’m going to try to get him neutered around then, and with it being so soon after Ivy’s spay (o___O 350 bucks) i’ve offered to give 125 dollars of my money towards it, since I still live at home, if my Mom agrees to get it down about a month after he comes home :3

This is going to be your rabbit or your mother’s rabbit?  Remember, once they are bonded, they must stay together, even if you move out.

[Ophelia]

It’s mine, of course. Like I said, i’m still financially dependent on my parents, and i’m a minor (pretty sure i’m still too young to even have a job around here), so my parents pay for the costs of my rabbits. That’s all I meant, sorry to confuse you

[Deleted User]

Otti, these are two very informative resources you linked to. Thanks for posting these. The debate on this topic is hard to settle in the pet owner community because there are two aspects to it that are difficult to reconcile; one being the interest of the animal to grow to their full health potential, the other being the need to reduce the chance of unintentional reproducing.
Ophelia, one thing I like to emhasize when bringing home a new kit, or any rabbit, to an existing female is to reserve some neutral territory for your introductions. This is the single most importsnt step in assuring a good start into the bonding.

[Ophelia]

Okay, i’ll keep that very much in mind when they first meet. We moved not too long ago, and Ivy still hasn’t been everywhere.
Would a playpen in the kitchen work pretty well for a place to start?

I mean, Ivy’s used the specific pen before, but never been in the kitchen. So I don’t know if that’s not neutral if the pen has a faint smell of her,
or something

[Beka27]

Many people use the bathtub as a setting for neutral bunny bonding sessions and it seems to work well.

[Ophelia]

 That’s a good idea too, thanks for that. I’ll keep that in mind. Bunny’ll probably be home in a week or so, so I need to stock up on tips 

[Beka27]

Read this article… http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

And then reread it. This is the best bonding article I have ever read. It covers a lot of the issues that can come up.

[Otti]

Ophelia, no I wasn’t referring to you when I mentioned wanting to neuter rabbits earlier if you have unspayed females. I read earlier that your female is spayed. It was just a general comment.

I get that in your case, you’re trying to benefit from the hopefully quicker/more positive experience of bonding a young kit to a female, and then trying to prevent that bond from being broken by neutering the kit as early as possible.

I think this is best case scenario though, as there’s no guarantee the female will take to the kit at all without a normal process of bonding, and that the bond will not need to be reworked anyways post neuter.

Not sure therefore whether it’s worth possibly gambling the development of your rabbit, whether your vet thinks it’s appropriate to neuter at 3 or 3.5 months or not. Like the link seems to imply, research in this field is lacking. Therefore, it’s by no means certain a vet would have learned of any possibly negative side effects that would prevent recommending an early neuter even if they were fairly rabbit savvy, since the incidence of such possible negative side effects has not yet been researched in rabbits.

Anyways, obviously it’s your decision! I’m looking forward to seeing pics of your new baby and hearing about the hopefully positive and easy bonding experience!

[equalsign]

 You shouldn’t be so quick to blow off the advice of the people here. Vets do not always make the best or most informed decisions. For example, some vets will suggest declawing (amputating) your cat. Not only is that practice considered inhumane by most rescue organizations (such as the National Humane Society) and many nations (it is illegal now in much of Europe, Brazil, Australia, ect), but can often lead to behavioral problems such as increased destructiveness and ignoring the litterbox. Declawed cats are almost twice as likely to be surrendered to a shelter. Try asking another vet for a second opinion.

[Deleted User]

Vets perform procedures upon request in most cases and not always in the absolute best interest of a pet. However, even though I hate the concept of declawing cats, I do know that it is often the only way a family will keep that cat. Vets just provide a service that is asked for in this context. Ophelia has obviously set her mind on a young male kit and that’s fine. In veterinary practice these are neutered without much troubles at the time their testes drop.

[HouseMiniLops]

I have an absolutely awesome 1 year old neutered male house rabbit who has free run of our bunny-proofed house. The only thing I felt like was missing for him was a friend. So when the woman who I got him from offered me another baby female, I accepted. They are siblings, and the adult is extremely mellow, so I thought it would work well. The baby is 6 weeks old. I brought her home yesterday and put her in a pen in the front yard, thinking with the amounts of wild bunnies constantly coming through it should be fairly neutral territory. My male growled at her once, I told him no, he calmed down and just tried to sniff her all over throughout the wire. They continued to just sniff each other. After a several hour break, thinking this was going fairly well, I brought them both into a seldom used room of our house. Adult male displayed no aggression, so I cautiously let go of the baby. She flew at him. And I mean highly aggressively, tearing out chunks of fur. I immediately separated them. Since after that she tried to do it again through the wires of her cage, I closed off the back guest room so she has it to herself with a door separating them.

I am going to try 20 minute car rides, but I’m feeling nervous. I was not expecting a 6 week old baby to be the aggressor. Any suggestions?

[Sarita]

Welcome HouseMiniLops – we ask that members do not tag onto old posts or reply to old posts – this post is from 2010 – you need to start a new post.

I think the baby is too young to be away from her mother. She is most likely scared and in sensory overload too. I am going to lock this thread and ask that you start a new post with your question.

[Author]

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