Attempting a quad frustration

[attemptedquad]

Hi everyone! I have 4 bunnies: Bear (Female, Senior), Sage (Male, 3 years old), Bodhi (Male, 1 year), and Salem (Male, 1 year). Bear and Sage are bonded, but Sage has been a bit more territorial since started the bonding process with all 4, so I wouldn’t say the bond is super strong right now. I just tried expanding their space quite a bit (going against the normal recommendation of decreasing space) and that has seemed to help A LOT. I have not noticed any issues since expanding. I don’t know where to start with bonding. Honestly, this year has been very stressful with the new additions and several health problems have popped up that have increased the time and money I need to spend with the bunnies. I feel like I NEED to bond them to help ease some of my workload. Keeping the 3 pens cleaned, keeping everyone fed and medicated, and making sure everyone’s social needs are met could literally be a full time job.

Bear has been diagnosed arthritic and is on daily pain management. She’s around 6 pounds. She came from a really terrible hoarding situation years ago, in which she endured horrible conditions for years, and is lucky to be alive. I’ve had her for about 3.5 years now and don’t know how old she is. When bonding, she needs a lower amount of stress because she becomes stressed easily. She’s a very submissive bunny and I have a very special bond with her.

Sage was a tiny, 4 pound feral bunny. I’ve had him about 2.5 years now. He doesn’t interact with humans and only enjoys bunny company. He has been more territorial with food and hides lately, which I think is due to moving the bonded pair in the same room with the other boys. Both him and Bear had to fight for resources in their past lives and Bear has an extremely high food response, which I think contributes to it as well.

Bodhi is huge at around 10 pounds and was also from a hoarding situation. He’s very dominant with the other bunnies. I’ve had him since he was young. He’s currently fighting an ear infection from a mite infestation from a bale of hay. The mites have delayed the bonding process, but it seems we’re in the clear now.

Salem is Bodhi’s brother and is about 8 pounds. He’s pretty submissive as well. He’s currently recovering from a minor bonding injury from his brother on his lower back. The bonding process has been delayed due to him before, as he had a really bad complication from his neuter that lead to a second surgery and greatly increased his recovery time. He’s very injury prone.

I attempted to start bonding by putting all 4 together in a 24/7 style of bonding, which seems to be the most recommended for bonding multiples. Honestly, if it weren’t for Bear’s health issues, I would have continued, but she was becoming very stressed. It was essentially her and Sage just hiding, while Bodhi and Salem would pick fights with each other.

I gave up after a few hours and decided to bond Bodhi and Salem first. This didn’t go too badly. They would go for a car ride, come home, bond a couple hours, go for another car ride when they would start to get irritated, and then bond a bit more. It seemed by the end of the day, they were a lot more comfortable with each other. They haven’t really been fighting, but Bodhi will bite at Salem’s back or circling has started, but I’ve ended it. Salem submits to Bodhi constantly and asks to be groomed, but neither of them have groomed each other yet. I’m thinking it could be because they are both males. I’m really trying to get them bonded as soon as possible. I took a break yesterday and today Salem seems to have some tummy issues, so I’m waiting until I see his appetite return to normal.

I’m questioning if this is the best way to go about things. I keep reading very conflicting things online and it seems like everyone has differences of opinion, but there’s also not too many people that explain the bonding process for multiples. Should I try integrating one of the bunnies and making a trio first? Should I continue with the way I’m doing things? Should I remove them from being in the same room? I feel like I could use all the tips and tricks you guys have got. I really just can’t wait until everyone is able to share one big area together and get along and it’s very frustrating. Bodhi and Salem do not hang out when they are in their pens anymore- if the pens are side by side, they will try to fight through the bars, which worries me because they didn’t seem to do this before bonding. I’ve moved the pens so they’re a good 8 inches apart now.

[Wick & Fable]

The more buns in the mix, the more personality comparability matters so something you’ll need to accept is the chance that these four will not work as a quad and having 2 bonded pairs may be a fine compromise, or a trio and a single (if one of the rabbits does not seem particularly keen on bonding, which some rabbits do do fine as singles with proper engagement from the owner). Depending on which you think would be more agreeable, I’d start there rather than throwing all 4 in the mix, especially if it’s weakening the preexisting bond.

It is actually not unusual for larger spaces to seemingly create harmony — it tends to be because the rabbits can stay out of each other’s business; however, this means they aren’t communicating and working out their dynamics, so the interactions are important, including the more tense ones. Large space harmonies can go awry quickly as exploration begins into other’s areas. We always intervene when there’s a fight, however, in some cases, short chases, nips, etc. are a part of the communication that needs to happen during the bonding process and large spaces sometimes won’t facilitate that.

If there is so much aggression across pens, I think you need to slow down. You are mentioning you want this done asap, and also rushing bonding almost never goes well… I understand wanting things to be streamlined though. Unfortunately, rabbit bonding, especially a quad, follows its own schedule; not ours. So frustrating!

I’ll add that the scent of other rabbits can facilitate aggression, so if you decide to just work on the other pair, be mindful of what you and your clothes smell like. You could be introducing dynamics you don’t intend to.

 

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

So, I only have experience with a failed quad, LOL, but here are my thoughts.

I completely understand the desire to get them bonded to make things simpler (and also improve the buns lives, because they would presumably get more exercise time and space). But, in my experience, putting pressure on you (and them), to be bonded as quickly as possible can make things really stressful and harder over all. Especially in a case where a bun is easily stressed or injury prone, it’s important to go at their pace. Bonding is very stressful for rabbits, and if one rabbit is having a health issue it can create a false hierarchy that falls apart later.

There are a few ways to go about things. While eventually you do need to work with all 4, it can be practically easier to at least get the pairs acquainted with each other first (so you don’t end up with immediate 4-bunny fights in sessions). A lot of it has to do with the bunnies and what you feel comfortable doing. I don’t think it makes sense to go for the trio and then the quad though. I would either get the other pair bonded and then add the two pairs together, or just work with all 4 at once. This could still mean working with all the different combos of 2 individually, because you might find that 2 of the bunnies are having the most issues.

I think it makes a lot of sense to start with the two un-bonded buns first. But, once you start working with the quad in earnest, their bond might break, as could the other pair.

Would having 2 pairs be an option for you if the quad doesn’t work out? That’s what I ended up with when my quad wasn’t working, and the buns are all very happy with the arrangement.

I agree that the fighting through the bars is not great. You mentioned you’ve had them a long time, but have you done side swaps or other forms of “pre-bonding”? Buns often will get along just fine with a neighbor until they realize that neighbor might be trying to invade their turf. It may help your pair to calm down if you add a visual barrier to block the other buns, like a towel hung over the pen wall. You can try this with your solo boys too while they calm down. They will still be able to smell each other but won’t be able to harass each other through the fence.

When I tried to bond my quad the boys were giving me the most trouble and were ultimately why I called it off after about 4 days of marathon bonding, so you definitely have a challenge ahead. Given Sage’s health issues, I agree that going with 24/7 bonding right off the bat is not a great strategy. You don’t want to end up in a situation where she’s getting along with them, but it’s just because she’s scared and stressed, and then down the road you have issues. I think it would help to do pre-bonding with all the buns, and then start with shorter sessions with each combo to get a sense of how they get along with each other.

There are a lot of bonding journals here that use a variety of methods. If you search the forum for “trio bonding” or “quad bonding”, you will find some threads that might help you as well.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

After thinking a bit over break, I’ve decided to just keep 2 pairs. I feel wrong seeing Bear so stressed at her age and in her condition from the couple of times I put them together and it just seems unnecessary. I have basically an entire level of the house to split between them, so there’s no actual reason to do it. Instead of having one huge free roam space for all of them, I will just have 2 large pens (around 8ftx10ft) and then a large free roam area that they can alternate between half of the day. I feel like this can also help me monitor how much Bear is eating because she has had incidences of losing weight and not eating enough in the past and this would be hard to monitor with 4 bunnies. If it weren’t for having an elderly/special needs bun, I’d probably just go for it, but it’s not worth risking her health. I’ve had some fun renovating their pens and rearranging things to make their space more functional. This is also better for my young boys because I can add some more fun toys that I don’t like putting in Bear’s cage, like the Cottontail Cottage or the large Maze Haven because I worry about her climbing.

Bonding with the 2 unbonded boys is going really well though! We had our first grooming in quite some time today. Salem is very submissive and I can already see what a great pair they’re going to be in the future! Still starting with a good 30 minutes of stress bonding and then spending couple hours in a pen together. We had some minor nipping today, but no actual fur pulling or real bites, just kind of scattering around when one would get scared.

[attemptedquad]

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Here’s some pictures of the little family!

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a good decision based on the situation! I really enjoy having two pairs, and it’s great you are making progress with the new pair! They look great together!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[attemptedquad]

Bonding update

Really great bonding session tonight! Salem has not groomed Bodhi up until this point, but tonight he groomed him 3 separate times, all for at least a full minute or two! I was so excited, I didn’t get a picture. I was worried I’d spook them by moving around and they’d stop. I feel like they are definitely building a lot of trust. Bodhi groomed Salem for just a second a couple of times. I feel like Salem is still showing that he wants to submit and just get along. He just lays down the vast majority of the time and puts his head under Bodhi’s. Every once in a while, I feel like Bodhi “tests” him by doing something, like nipping him or climbing on top of him (not mounting or humping, just like crawling over his head to grab some hay. I haven’t really seen humping between the two of them yet). I’ll see Salem’s body language shift when this happens, either tail up, like he’s preparing if he needs to pounce or scurrying away. They were together for about 2 hours tonight and there was no fur pulled or really anything major, just a couple nips from Bodhi that definitely annoyed Salem. I ended it earlier than I probably needed to because I want to leave them on a good note before I try to get more bonding in this weekend. Also trying to use a lot of pets and then some dried herbs afterwards to build a positive association with bonding time.

Question: Should I be cleaning out the cage in between bonding sessions? The bottom is lined with hay and litter and they’ve been munching on the hay and pooping. Don’t want to create any territiorialness if I can avoid it.

[DanaNM]

That sounds really positive! They are definitely making progress!

If you’re referring to the cage area that’s the bonding area, yes I usually clean the area in between so all the hay is fresh and the area smells more neutral. Plus once the sessions start getting longer the area will definitely need cleaning. :p

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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