Are my rabbits bonded?

[a llama]

Hello,

I am the owner of two male rabbits, Oreo and Ben, who have both been fixed for at least 8 weeks. I have been doing mostly daily bonding sessions with them for around 3 – 4 weeks and they are now at the point where they will show all the behaviors that bonded rabbits will show. They will eat together, take naps together, tolerate each other in their territories, play in the same room peacefully, and generally I haven’t seen any major signs of aggressiveness between the two for the past several days. At times, Oreo will even cooperate with a one-sided grooming system where Oreo is the only one grooming (I am really glad that Oreo is fine with grooming Ben when he asks for it, but I really feel like they should have some sort of a mutual affection going on, and Ben hasn’t shown much affection towards Oreo as of yet). I have tried putting banana on Oreo’s forehead to motivate Ben to groom Oreo, and Ben will do as expected and lick it off; however, he will return to his normal non-affectionate attitude towards Oreo when that banana is gone. Ben will even be a little demanding at times and give Oreo a few nips to the nose in hopes of convincing him to groom. Are there any other ways (except for the banana technique) to encourage grooming between rabbits?

Another thing I have noticed between them is that they will generally just go along with their own lives and give little care to what the other is doing. For example, if one is eating and the other wants to eat as well, then they will eat together. But if they don’t have interest for what the other one is doing, then they won’t bother joining. I’m not sure if this is a problem or not, but I had previously thought that bonded rabbits would be together pretty much all the time. That being said, is there any sort of test I can do to tell for certain whether my rabbits are bonded or not? Also, if they are not bonded, should I just continue the daily bonding sessions? They have been showing the same “indifferent” behavior towards what the other is doing for a while now and I’m not sure how long it will take for them to start being more affectionate towards each other (unless they won’t, but I do not know how to tell and I want to know if my efforts are worth it or not.) 

One last thing to note about Oreo is that he had a tendency to spray Ben at times. I know for sure that the spraying is not territorial as he will do the same in neutral territories or any other type of area as well. I’m not sure whether Oreo will spray only in certain conditions or if he will just do it anytime he feels like it. Regardless, it has become an annoyance for both me and Ben as I have to clean it and Ben has to deal with a urine-soaked coat of fur. If possible, is there any way to stop this spraying, or is there a possibility that Oreo is still hormonal? Anyway, thanks for your time and any help is appreciated! 

[Deleted User]

This doesn’t sound like bonded bunny behavior, and they aren’t bonded either. They have to be together for a full 24-48 hours without any sort of aggressive behavior. So you and a partner would have to take turns watching them during this 24-48 hour period to make sure nothing like that happened, as unbonded bunnies should never be unsupervised. Spraying is territorial in nature, so even doing it neutral territory means he is marking it as his space. Bonded bunnies are exactly that, they’re practically attached at the hip. They don’t typically flat out ignore each other, and both parties usually do show some type of affection. You’ve only been bonding them for 4-6 weeks? That’s nothing at all really. Bonding can take months, so I think you need to be a little more patient and continue sessions as you normally would. Sometimes you need to go backwards before you can move forwards. Try giving them less space during sessions, or try stress bonding.

[a llama]

I am aware that spraying is a territorial tendency for rabbits, but is there anything you know of to stop the behavior? Also, what about Ben and how he doesn’t groom Oreo, do you know how I can convince him to groom him naturally? Another thing is that I’ve tried pretty much every type of bonding area for them and none of them seem to affect their behavior: neutral, non-neutral, slippery floors, floors with towels, small spaces, big spaces and everything else. Do bonds with rabbits just progress with persistence, as in their behaviors will change eventually in the same type of area and all my worries were for nothing (I’ve heard of rabbits that suddenly “clicked” in certain areas so I have been trying many different types to see if Ben and Oreo would react.)? Sorry for bothering you even further with my questions, but I have been looking for help all over and I never seem to find the advice I really need.  

[Deleted User]

The important thing is that they aren’t being aggressive. You could try doing an overnight and see how they do for 24 hours together. Some bunnies aren’t groomers, and maybe Ben is one of them. Yes, some bunnies do just click after a while. Like I said, it hasn’t been that long, so it’s still looking positive overall. Have you tried having them ride in a box in the car for like a 30-60 minutes? You could also try doing it on top of a dryer. The idea with those is that they’ll look to each other for comfort. If you opt for the car, make sure someone is with you while you drive in case any fights do break out or whatever. I think just continuing sessions and having them be together is a good thing. Over time they could very well start to click, and it is a very good sign that there’s no aggression happening. I think for you it’s just a matter or being patient and letting things play out. I think trying an overnight or one of the two stress techniques could be beneficial in seeing some type of progress.

[Sirius&Luna]

I have to disagree with A&B here, I don’t think all bonded bunnies are attached at the hip. There’s different types of bonds, and some bunnies have a more ‘coexisting’ bond, while others spend pretty much all their time together.

That said, I don’t think your bunnies are bonded, as the spraying is an issue. I think you need to persist further, with longer sessions. I also worry that Ben might snap that he never gets groomed and attack Oreo, so it is important to see how they cope together over longer periods of time. Do they do things like flop together?

[a llama]

Oreo is actually the one that grooms Ben, you got those mixed up. And I haven’t seen Oreo getting aggressive in any sort of way when Ben refuses to groom him, as he will usually just get bored and hop away and leave Ben in peace. The only thing I would be concerned with the grooming though is like I said, Ben will be a little demanding at times and give Oreo a few nips on the nose. When these nips happen, Oreo usually gets the message and grooms Ben, but sometimes it causes some raised tails so I’ll just be keeping a close watch in those situations. Also, they will flop together in each other’s presences just fine, but I’ve only seen them flop NEXT to each other just one or two times. With Ben’s nipping and Oreo’s spraying, I think I will wait a week or two before I start the 24 hour sessions as these can both cause problems. Another thing to note though is that Oreo will also groom Ben through the cage bars of their play pens, I always think that is so cute to watch.

[Deleted User]

I’d defer to S&L she’s way more experienced at bonding than I am I’ve just only ever seen bonded buns attached at the hip.

I think it’s a good sign that they flop in each others’ presence, even if they don’t always flop next to each other. I think it shows at least some level of comfort between them. Was there ever any humping in the beginning? I think it’s great that you’re really aware of each buns’ signals of what is tolerated and what isn’t. It’ll really be helpful during the overnights.

[Sirius&Luna]

Sorry A&B, I didn’t mean to be rude, I hope you didn’t take it like that! I think its quite a common misconception, but even between my three pairs of bonded bunnies that I’ve had previously, they’ve all had very different types of relationship that worked in their own way.

A llama:
Grooming is something that will likely come with time. When I was bonding Luna and Atlas, Luna hardly ever groomed him, but she did give him the occasional groom. Once they were actually bonded and living together, I caught her grooming him much more often. It can be quite one sided, as I think someone pointed out in your last post. (Also it might be helpful if you kept commenting on one post rather than making new ones, as it’s much easier for people to give advice if they can see the whole history and what you’ve tried)

Nips are ok, but it does sounds like Ben is pretty demanding, and either he’ll settle down over a longer period, or Oreo will stop putting up with it, but really, I think you do need to push them through that. How long are they typically spending together?

Have you tried stressing?

[Deleted User]

Not at all S&L! I truly do mean you have way more experience than I do with this, so I’d believe anything you say xD I mean, my boys are still waiting to go to a bonder, so my experience is zilch and just learning through creeping on the forums

[a llama]

Alright, thanks for the information about the posts, I’ll be staying on this one from now on. Also, for your question about how long they are staying together, it really depends on what my schedule allows. Typically on week days I’ll be with them for an hour or two, possibly less, and on the weekends I will stay with them for much longer. And as they tolerate each other inside their territories now, I will usually just put them together in the pens they live in as a bonding area because its much more convenient for me instead of having to set up a neutral territory outside (I hope that this isn’t a problem, but please let me know if it is). And yes, I have tried different ways of stress bonding, and running a vacuum next to them seems to work the best. However, I have noticed that Ben has recently been running away from Oreo as if he was scared of him. My suspicion was that Ben may have been associating the vacuum with Oreo’s presence. I stopped the stress bonding for a few days and Ben now seems to much more relaxed around Oreo. I may have been wrong about Ben associating the vacuum with Oreo, but until I know otherwise, I think that I will just stay away from stress sessions unless they become necessary. One last thing, by “pushing them through” do you mean that I should just continue with daily bonding sessions or put them through a 24 hour session?

[Sirius&Luna]

Yeah, stress bonding doesn’t work for everyone, so it may well be that they associate each other with the stress. Personally, I try and get them to associate each other with good things (food and pets), so I do think stress can have a negative effect on some bunnies.

Having them in each others pens may be increasing the territorial behaviours like spraying, so I would try them in a long session in neutral if possible – if you want to be inside, you can always put a towel on the floor, and cover the walls of the pen so it looks and smells ‘neutral’ even if its in your living room – that should be totally fine for bunnies that are mostly ok in each others areas.

I would say try and do a long session – 8 hours plus in neutral together, and see how they do, whether they start relaxing and spending more time together. Once you can get through a few 8 hour sessions without spraying, then you should be able to try a 24 hours.

[sarahthegemini]

I agree, definitely aim for longer sessions. Once you can do several long sessions with no issues you can try to go for 24 hours. This is known as the ‘cementing the bond’ phase.

In terms of bonded bunny behaviour – I thought I’d weigh in with my thoughts Every pair is different but generally I think there’s some affection between them. I wouldn’t personally be completely comfortable with a pair that weren’t somewhat affectionate because I feel like they might be more likely to lash out if they had a disagreement? Having said that, that doesn’t mean they need to be lovey dovey all the time. Laying against one another and grooming is affectionate

My own pair are pretty snuggly. They flop together and lay squished together a lot. They lay with their bodies squished against one another (so cute) or they lay with their faces almost touching lol but the grooming is definitely one sided a lot of the time. Buttercup grooms Peanut waaay more than he grooms her. He’s a greedy little monkey! Sometimes he’ll have a generous day or two but for the most part, he’s the receiver not the giver lol.

I think your bunnies are on the right track. I agree with Sirius&Luna tho, neutral territory would be best and might put a stop to the spraying. They might actually behave differently in neutral – maybe more grooming, and both of them? When I was bonding P & B, they both groomed each other all the time. Then the honeymoon period ended and Peanut got lazy lol.

[a llama]

I’ll definitely be looking for times when I can do 8 hour bonding sessions with them during the weekends. However there are a few more confusions I would like to have addressed. First, what should I do and how should I react when Oreo sprays Ben? Usually I just use an old spray bottle to get a bit of water on his face, as I am trying to get him to associate his spraying with getting sprayed by the water. Lately I have been attempting to see what kinds of things cause Oreo to spray and making sure those things don’t happen after I discover them, and it’s been working pretty well. Although there are still those certain occasions where Oreo will spray, regardless of the precautions I’ve been taking. The second concern I have is that I don’t know where I can set up a neutral bonding space other than the outdoors, as I don’t have nearly enough old/useless towels to cover up the walls of the play pen. And when I put Ben in the outside playpen, he isn’t himself anymore, as in he will be extra alert, move very cautiously and pay minimal attention to actually interacting with Oreo. Pretty much the only really neutral places in my house are the bathrooms, but there is no way I can use them as they are way too small. To add to that, it’s still really cold out here in Ohio and it’s a pain for me to be standing out there for hours at a time with a cold face. And about using their indoor play pens as bonding areas, I haven’t really seen a change in their territorial tendencies whether they are in each others’ territories or in neutral territories (With the new “precautions” I’ve been taking with Oreo, he hasn’t sprayed for 4 days straight, and that’s a record for him.). Is it absolutely necessary to use a neutral territory with their case? If so, I would really like to have some suggestions in terms of where I should take them to bond.

[sarahthegemini]

I don’t know what to suggest in terms of the spraying but for neutral territory – you said you don’t have enough old towels, you can just use any towel or bed sheet so long as it’s washed beforehand. Lay some on the floor of the pen and then you could use a combo of the towels and some cardboard to cover the sides? Or you could buy some cheap fabric from a fabric store and use those.

[sarahthegemini]

Another suggestion would be taking them to a friend’s house and setting up a pen there?

[a llama]

Sorry I took so long to respond to this, but unfortunately my parents are trying to save some money and aren’t willing to buy the fabrics required for a neutral area. And I don’t have any friends willing to let me do an 8 hour session with the rabbits at their houses. I think I’ll just wait until the weather becomes warmer outside so that I can comfortably do an outside session. Until then, I will just keep to the daily routine of letting them play together outside of their pens. And about when Oreo sprays, I know you weren’t sure about what to do about that. But based on your experience, what would be your guess as to what is the best thing to do? Should I end the session, or should I just let them continue as if things were normal? As I said before, usually I just spray water on Oreo’s face a few times to scare him every time he sprays. I’m not really sure if this is helpful or not, but I hope it can at least help a little. Although I do feel as though there should be something else I should be doing instead of spraying him, which is exactly why I am asking you.

In the time that I was not responding, I noticed something about Oreo and Ben that might be relevant to something. Since they aren’t really fighting anymore, I let them share a wall of their living pens, and that gives them the opportunity to interact through the cage bars anytime they feel like it. As I had hoped with this new change, they are interacting in exactly the way I wanted them to, meaning that they will not have any fights or disagreements and they will spend most of their free time sitting next to each other (not squished together as if they were cuddling, but looking at each other from a distance while still being close.). As per usual, the only one doing all the grooming is Oreo, which is good but not ideal. That being said, if it isn’t through grooming, how should Ben be showing his affection towards Oreo? Because all I see Ben doing is demanding Oreo to groom him and I feel like Oreo deserves some attention too. Anyway, thanks for your help.

[a llama]

And just in case anyone wanted to see, here are some pictures of them.

Oreo in a temporary cage: Oreo

Ben in a loaf position: Ben

Oreo and Ben having one of the rare moments where they are actually cuddling together: Cuddles

[a llama]

Hello again, this comment is not relevant to what I was previously talking about, but I just felt like sharing the fact that I am almost certain that I will be adopting a third rabbit. And this time, she will be a female Holland lop (hopefully things go well with her and the boys after pre-bonding). I’m so excited!

[Harley&Thumper]

Does your family have the financial resources for a third rabbit? You mentioned your parents don’t want to spend money on old towels.

[Sirius&Luna]

Bonding a trio is harder than bonding a pair, so make sure you are prepared for that. Will she be spayed?

[a llama]

Well, its not necessarily that my parents don’t want to spend the money for the towels, its more that I do not want to be too demanding in terms of asking too many things from them. No worries though, as they are willing to cover for a third rabbit’s expenses as long as I am properly taking care of all 3 on a regular basis. Also, for Serius&Luna’s question, she has been spayed since August of 2017 so I doubt that I will have to be worrying about any sort of hormones.

[Deleted User]

Definitely let the new girl settle in away from the other two in a separate room for at least a month before you start prebonding. It will help her not to feel as stressed out and to actually have a chance to get to know you and her surroundings. After the month, you can move her into the same room and start prebonding them. Are you planning to halt sessions with the other two until then? Their dynamic might change by adding the girl into the mix. So that’s something to keep in mind

[a llama]

As I mentioned before, I think i’ll just stop any “official” sessions with the two and let them keep playing together in the same room with my supervision. Also, if possible, I would like to know why Oreo’s litter box habits are so bad. Luckily, I don’t have to deal with any pee outside his litterbox, but when it comes to his poop, I will find it EVERYWHERE after a few hours. And this means he will poop inside his food and water bowls, on top of his hidey house, everywhere on the floor and anyplace else inside his pen. I had previously thought that the behavior was territorial because he’s living next to Ben, but the poops don’t have that horrible smell Oreo creates when he’s actually territorial. Also, if Oreo was territorial, he would be spraying Ben through the pen’s bars (which he is not, thankfully). Does Oreo just need to be litterbox trained? If so, how would I train him?

[Deleted User]

It still sounds territorial to me. My boys aren’t bonded yet (they are litter trained) and they honestly leave poops all over the place. I have to sweep at least twice a day because it’s everywhere. Their poops don’t have a terrible smell either. So I think it’s something you’re going to have to wait until he’s bonded.

[Sirius&Luna]

I agree, bunnies don’t always spray when they’re territorial or even ever. My bunnies also do regular poops and smelly poops all over the living room.

You can try the usual litter training techniques, but it’s unlikely to be successful while you have unbonded bunnies.

Common litter training techniques explained here:
https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/tabid/53/CategoryID/5/PID/940/Default.aspx

[sarahthegemini]

You really shouldn’t allow them to have ‘supervised play time’ It’s best to keep them completely away from each other (exception being during bonding sessions)

[a llama]

Hello,

I am posting again in regards to a couple issues I’ve been having with Ben, and one of them is that he won’t allow me to approach him in any circumstance without running away during play time. I’m really not sure why he does this, as he is also completely comfortable with me while we are both in his living area. At times he will even come up to me and sniff a few times before I reach out to pet him when he runs away again. Not only that, but when it is time for me to bring him back to his living area, it is a pain for me to convince him to go inside his litter box so that I can transport him without needing to pick him up (which he absolutely despises.) This has been quite the inconvenience for me and I would like to know some methods that I can use to get him more comfortable with my presence. Anyway, thanks in advance for your time.

[a llama]

Also, I will be taking your advice on cutting any “supervised play time” between them, especially because of some recent territorial disagreements I have been noticing with them. That being said, I’ll just probably have to start things over with bonding in respect to the new girl I’m going to adopt, anyway.

[Deleted User]

Just being on the floor with him, letting him eat from your hand, and sometimes even just ignoring him while you’re at his level all can get him comfortable with you. Asriel used to bet extremely timid. If you ever reached out to touch him he would bolt like there’s no tomorrow. He was not having it. On weekends him and Bombur usually get to stay out until 2am, but the hubs and I fell asleep early one night while watching a movie. Needless to say it was 5am and we were greeted with a giant snoot invading our faces. He was basically saying “hey you! you forgot I was out!” Ever since then he’s opened up a lot more. I really think it was mainly because we just ignored (slept) for like 4 hours while he was out. So it allowed him to really explore us without us feeling like a threat.

In the mean time, can you coax him into the litter box with a treat? I have to do that with Bombur because he has issues clearing the cage door. I also will wait until he’s in a litter box to move him too. It might take longer, but no coaxing is involved.

[a llama]

Does the fact that he is comfortable with me inside his living area count for anything? It’s only when I bring him to the play area when starts being scared of me. If that doesn’t mean anything, I have already tried being with him in a relatively small play pen and the only thing that happens with that is Ben will bite the pen’s bars in protest to being in an enclosed space. This biting will go on for the entire time until I let him out and sometimes he will even grunt and thump in addition to his biting protest. And the weird thing is that he is once again completely fine with my presence in that play pen, meaning that he will climb on me and let me pet him. Should I be doing these play pen sessions with Ben as repetively as I am doing bonding sessions with Oreo?

[a llama]

Another thing is that my family is not willing to go through the work of bunny proofing the house, which means that letting Ben free roam the house like you mentioned with Asriel won’t be an option.

[a llama]

Here’s an update on all this trouble with Ben. So, because if how inconvenient it is for me to have Ben hiding all over the house when he gets scared, I’ve decided to limit his play area to a mostly empty room with a few couches. This is where he has been playing for about a week now and he now seems to be completely comfortable with my presence. My theory is that since he is relatively timid, he would like to become familiar with his surroundings before any sort of socialization, which I am fine with. Also, now that I’ve got the new girl, I will be starting the whole bonding process between all 3 of them from the beginning. Meaning that after the girl is settled, I will be doing pre bonding with them. That being said, how should I go about doing this with a trio? And what sorts of positive signs should I be looking for to indicate me to move on to the next stage? Should I be waiting for the girl to do pre bonding or should I just start with Oreo and Ben? Sorry for all the questions, but I want to make sure that I will bond them correctly this time.

[Deleted User]

I think going back to prebonding all three is the best course of action. Just so the boys get more used to each other as well. I think some people try seeing how certain pairs work together before attempting to have a session with all three, and other people just start with a session of all three. So it might be helpful to search for some trio threads. Sirius&Luna just successfully bonded a trio, so their thread is a great read.

We rent a room from my husband’s uncle, so he was only roaming around a single room xD not a whole house. But it worked pretty much the way it seems to be doing for Ben. I think it’s great that having that safe space for him is helping him to come out of his shell.

[a llama]

Would you happen to know what sorts of positive behaviors I should be looking for during pre bonding? At their current stage, when I let one free roam around the other’s cage (of course double thickness on the bars), they will just go on a mass chinning craze, often lasting for pretty much the whole playing session. At least there isn’t any aggressive cage rattling, but I do usually see some raised tails and them following each other’s movements behind the bars. Is this behavior ideal during pre bonding, or Is it something I should be concerned about?

[a llama]

(This post is for keeping the topic from being buried alive)

[Sirius&Luna]

If you’re starting again with the trio, it might be worth making a new topic.

It doesn’t really matter what behaviour you see during pre-bonding, there is no ‘bad’ prebonding. They’re just getting used to each other and spreading their own scents. You’ll know they’re ready for bonding when they’re calm during swaps instead of like this.

[a llama]

Alright, I’ll keep that in mind.

[Author]

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