Angry Buns

[R.A.D.S.]

My Flemish giant Amara has been spayed about a month ago. For the last two weeks she’s been not only digging in her box, but kicking everything out of it. She’s only ever dug a little to move things around in the box. It’s never happened with my older buns Sam and Dean, or her brother Ruby Tuesday. How do I get this behavior to stop? It doesn’t matter if the box is freshly cleaned or it’s been a couple days. We haven’t changed a thing in our routine cleaning or litter or anything like that.

Amara has also been very grumpy, as has her brother Ruby Tuesday since they’ve been fixed. When we pick either of them up after loving on them for a bit to take them to the play area, they flail and basically freak out which leads to lots of scratches for us. We waited about two and a half weeks after them being fixed to try to pick them up.

Amara has also been a bit nippy lately as well, which she never was before being spayed. She’s also started tugging at her water bottle in between sips of water. She’s normally very happy being petted and loved on, but she hasn’t wanted much pets. Ruby Tuesday was nippy for a bit, but he’s back to being sweet as long as not picked up.

When we had Sam and Dean neutered we waited the same amount of time to try to take them to the play area as well. During the first week of healing they were grumpy and didn’t want to be petted, so we left them be. They returned to their usual affectionate nature after that first week. We have a habit of petting them a bit before treats when we greet them. They often now will want their treats before being petted. But still, they love the routine we’ve established. Normally it’s the same with the Flemish buns.

It also seems like Amara and Ruby Tuesday are bored of everything. They have plenty of hay, hanging chews, and other toys, but are bored of them. We have gotten them new toys and they sniff them and may give them a nibble, but then it’s back to being bored. In their play area they have a tunnel, a couple large wooden activity centers, toys and other chews. They also seem bored of these lately too. When they are bored they end up getting destructive or extra nippy.

I understand they are in the teenage phase, but we’ve never encountered this with Sam and Dean. We also worry about these behaviors as we want to eventually bond them with Sam and Dean.

[DanaNM]

I think this is all related to the “post-spay” craze and hormonal fluctuations, as I mentioned in your other post about bonding.

I think there is a combo of growing up and leaving behind baby-behaviors (like being OK with being handled), being feisty because of hormones, and possibly being upset at another bunny nearby that’s not a bonded mate.

A couple things jump out at me, one is that most bunnies don’t like to be handled, so if you have to pick them up every day to let them exercise, she could be getting upset about that. Are you able to modify their housing so you can just open up her cage to let her into the play area?

Having a cage that’s too small can also lead rabbits to get frustrated and cage aggressive (esp if they are being picked up a lot). How large is her cage and how many hours a day does she spend in it? How large is the play area?

As for the digging, I can relate! I’ve had bunnies suddenly become OBSESSED with litter box digging. Adding a litter box screen can help a lot. There are some for sale on the BB store, or you can use plastic knitting mesh. I have used both and it works great, I just cover the screen with a layer of hay.

As for the boredom, I think they would like some toys that would help vent this urge to dig and destroy. Phone books are great for this, or a cardboard box with some holes cut in the sides and stuffed with paper can be very satisfying for buns with the urge to dig. My buns also really like organic palm plates.

As for her behavior towards you, going back to basics should help. So spend time on the floor with her and ignore her. Just hang out with her. If she nips you, squeak loudly to let her know it hurt you. Do some hand feeding and just spend some peaceful time with her.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[R.A.D.S.]

Usually they are in there when we are sleeping. We have a few different play areas that are pretty large idk the dimensions. We also let them run around the entire downstairs den, which is also large so we can spend time with them in our environment. It’s always nice to watch a movie and have one of them come up onto the couch and give us some love. We also at times let them roam the whole upstairs as well. We only do that when they can be supervised as even though we have bunny proofed everything they still manage to find something to get into trouble with. We have a very large multi level home. That’s why they have a few designated play areas, because in those we don’t have to keep an eye on them as much.

They have two different cages. One is a large doggy play yard as the main cage. So it’s very roomy. The other is more rectangular shape, but it’s very long and wide enough for them to stretch out fully in either direction and have plenty of room.

Sam and Dean also have a doggy play yard for their cage. It’s close enough to the babies so they can see each other but also be safe. When we first brought them home, I didn’t go anywhere near Sam and Dean, and they were on different levels of the house. Dean was very angry because he could smell them but not see them. We did bring them to their area near Sam and Dean, and Dean was calmer having seen them. The babies are still so curious about Sam and Dean when we put them in the doggy play yard at first each time, but then they go back to ignoring them and doing their own thing. We made the rectangular cage to keep the babies in till we could bond them with Sam and Dean. Sam and Dean get upset when we have the babies in their second cage, as even though they haven’t met, they are used to having them in the cage near them.

I will have to try that for the box! Yeah we’ve tried the cardboard thing. Will have to try the phone book and palm one.

[DanaNM]

Ah, this is helpful! So you have a bonded pair of boys, and then Amara? Or are the boys the ones that just had to be separated? Just trying to get all the bunnies straight.

Sometimes bunnies can have what’s called “referred aggression”, where they are upset about a bunny nearby but then will react negatively towards whoever comes closest to them. So that could be a part of what’s going on.

As for moving them around, you might try training them to hop into a carrier to move them around. Usually this is pretty easy to do with treats. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[R.A.D.S.]

Oh and the sniffing thing was very brief. They didn’t get a good chance to truly meet. But it helped Dean loads. That’s why he doesn’t seem to care about having them in the same room. It will be interesting to see when they truly get to really meet. Dean reminds me so much of a dog that just has to smell a spot/item/person/animal. Unhappy till he can, even brief. Then content from there on out.

[R.A.D.S.]

So Sam and Dean are boys. Sam is my Dutch, and Dean is my Holland Lop mix.
Amara is female, and Ruby Tuesday is male. They are my Flemish giants.

Just as Sam and Dean like having the babies nearby, the babies too could like having Sam and Dean around? We’ve been keeping Amara and R.T. in the downstairs cage away from Sam and Dean. They are used to being near them. That could be what this is all about also. Usually when Amara and R.T. are downstairs we would have Sam and Dean in a play area for the night near them. So that does have me curious if this is part of it, alongside crazy hormones? Hmm 🤔

Btw..Side note-We’ve had the babies in their cage upstairs and let Sam and Dean loose in the room, and the interaction was positive. They just sniffed the babies through their cage. We only did that once when we first moved the babies upstairs to help Dean. If Dean can’t smell the animal or person, he gets upset. Even if he doesn’t interact with them later on. He has to know who everyone is. So we hope that being near each other will help them when the time does come to bond.

[DanaNM]

Ah, so you have 4! I have 4 too, it can get complicated! I was trying for a quad but that didn’t work out so I ended up with two pairs.

So I noticed with my pairs, that I saw a ton more destructive and frustrated type behaviors when they were housed side by side. Once I moved into a bigger place, I opted to give 1 pair the upstairs and 1 pairs the downstairs, and everyone got much more calm and relaxed. The litter box digging with mine was insane while they were side by side, but almost completely went away once they were separated (I think they were trying to tunnel to get to each other!). But I also think that if given enough time, they probably would have settled down (mine were in that set up for a few months)? I think every set of bunnies would be a bit different in this regard. My males were just obsessed with each other and not in the good way, so it’s better if they are separated completely.

It’s pretty normal for adults to get along with pre-puberty babies, but when the babies hit puberty things can change pretty quickly.

I think most rabbits do best with stability, so once you re-bond the Flemmies, you might think about whether you want to just completely separate the pairs, so they are in different parts of the house, or do the side-by-side thing. Since you are noticing some aggressive/frustrated/defensive behaviors, you might see how they do with separation.

Of course we would love to see pictures of all of these bunnies!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[R.A.D.S.]

Hmmm. You bring up some good points. Once the flemmies are rebonded, we need to at least give the four leaf clover of buns 🍀  a try. If not we will do the different levels, as that sounds like a great idea.

R.T was supposed to be a girl, but the owner got it wrong. We only found out when they both went in to be fixed.

pictures are always a great idea!

[DanaNM]

Ruby Tuesday is a super cute name! 😀

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[R.A.D.S.]

Thanks! We figured it would be more masculine since we found out that he was a he not a she. All our buns are named after supernatural characters.

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