All Male-Neutered Quartett with picture recap

[Deleted User]

A friend of mine has a male-male bonded pair and was fostering a number of rescued rabbits as well. Two of which she wanted to bond to her pair and had them neutered. Her existing pair’s dominant rabbit, Roger, began attacking his bonded buddy at the scent or sight of the new rabbits from across their barrier.  We agreed to try bonding the quartett at my house to start off fresh on neutral grounds.

I will post a concise summary so far as the process is still ongoing.  I just finished my own mixed trio bonding process coverage not long ago, but many members have wondered about neutered male multiples, so here it is .

Here are the ‘subjects’

Roger, dominant, humpy bunny. Not abusive, though. Just likes to be the top bunny.

Bugs, Himalayan, tiny little bunny, probably the sweetest bun I have ever met. He seems to bond instantly to any creature including rabbits.

He is Roger’s long-time bonded friend.

Valmore. A 5-month-old, medium sized agouti rabbit with a cottontail look. He is originally out of a rescued feral litter. He is shy, having had little handling. Very powerful hindlegs… truthfully, my favorite bunny ever.

 

 

Clifford, 2 year-old (like Roger and Bugs), gentle, friendly, three-and-a-half pound rabbit, life-of-the-party personality. He humps everything, including cats. Easy to handle, curious, loves people, dogs, but very humpy with other rabbits.

 

I started with Roger and Valmore as I figured Bugs would make for a quick bond (I tested with my own rabbit Mops who is non-aggressive).

I didn’t capture the first bath tub intro on tape because it was very beligerent and I needed my hands free. They fought and I separated them using fine mist from my shower head. This is why they look damp in this video.

 

I repeated bath tub sessions every night for five days, sometimes with the tap running as a stressor. They didn’t fight again but Valmore seemed scared/guarded and Roger didn’t want to risk getting in a quarrel so nobunny really made any advances.

I transferred them into a small section of my patio corner (my own rabbits were in the basement, nowhere near these guys) and started sessions with Roger and Valmore providing them with two neutral litter boxes, and treats. I had a long-handled broom ready in case of a scuffle.

They relaxed as they explored and I felt  that stress-bonding was not indicated for these two at that point.

I repeated these sessions for about two hours on five consecutive days.

…to be continued.

(is 5 photo attachments the limit per post?)

[mrmac]

I havnt ‘seen’ you around in a while! I tried to post pics the other day and it would only let me do 5 per post too. Ooh boy, 4 boys! In the tub they both look very frozen, in ‘I have to watch you’ mode. Is Valmore in the tub with Roger or Clifford, I thought he looked darker than Roger? They seemed to be more relaxed outside.

[Deleted User]

Then, as the novelty of Roger and Valmore had worn off between them which didn’t take a week even, I added Bugs, caged, into their space to check for signs of aggression in Roger (this was my friend’s concern, that Roger’s bond to Bugs would disintegrate ).

 

Everybunny was calm. The next day, I put the three together on top of my running dryer inside this tiny cage that Bugs is shown inside of here.

From the moment I brought in Bugs it was a matter of instant-trio bond. (who knew such a thing existed??)

Then, I took it a step further, not wanting to let the trio cement their triangle permanently, knowing they are meant to become a quartett.

I presented Clifford to them in their space but caged.

But my streak ended when I did a bath tub intro between Valmore and Clifford. Valmore, once more scared and tense, but Clifford more determined to hump than Roger. Valmore bit at Clifford.  I settled them down with running water noise from the tap, petted them calm and separated them. I tried Clifford with Bugs the next day and it was another intant bond as seems to be the magic of Bugs… magical enough I was able to add Roger to them in the small cage but petting them lots all the while. Roger will sit as long as I keep stroking his head.  I continue working on Valmore and Clifford separately. My plan is to keep doing tri-bun sessions between Clifford, Bugs and Roger until I get Valmore and Clifford beginning to act friendly and curious about one another in the bathroom.

I did, however,  allow the new trio be together 24/7 from here on in.

 

(Bugs is love: he tolerates and gives.  If the world was more like this little Himalayan rabbit, there would be peace and friendship as a matter of course!)

[Deleted User]

Hey mrmac! yes, I was busy. but I had to drop in to show you these guys. Valmore is in the tub with Roger. They got a little wet and it made their coloring change hue. This bonding got me thinking how important the neutral space is, even for bonds that seem bad from the beginning. My friend was really not sure if Roger would take it well, he’s been paired wiith Bugs for most of his 2-year life.

[mrmac]

“”From the moment I brought in Bugs it was a matter of instant-trio bond. (who knew such a thing existed??)””

I couldn’t even imagine!  There’s always two that have to have some little issue! The three look so good together though! They are all sooooo adorable!

 

[jerseygirl]

Petzy! If you pull this off, you’re a bloody legend!

Are you going to become a professional bonder?

[Lintini]

Hey!! Look over there!! *points* *runs off with Valmore* Bwahahha!!!

[Deleted User]

To sort everybody for name reference, here is the new trio, from left to right:

Valmore (uppy-eared, agouti bun), little Bugs (Himalayan), and Roger (lop).

and here is the problem. Clifford. A.k.a. ‘Superhump’,  an icon of masculinity.

Clifford has a stuffed toy to love but it doesn’t interest him as much as the real thing.

*Clifford has bald spots on his ears and above his nose from mosquito bites. He came to us like that. He has been treated and it has healed but the hairs are still growing back.

I did a bath tub session between Valmore and Clifford today.

you can see here it started out rough.

I ran the water and my dog barked at the commotion which halted the combat.

Valmore looking for a way out…

[Deleted User]

Then they settled down and I ended on a reasonably calm note.

I also did a session between Clifford and Roger, in a small sink. Roger is not nearly as nervous and jumpy  when meeting Clifford as is Valmore. Roger tolerated Clifford.

I then transferred all 4 rabbits into a neutral cage, where Clifford humped Bugs while Roger ate noms. Valmore was the only rabbit upset by this situation. I had them together for a matter of 5 minutes before I separated Valmore and Clifford out and into a basket. I carried the two around in this basket for about ten mnutes, causing jerky motion and then sat  with them to pet them for 15 minutes. Clifford didn’t try anything, his strength was running low from the different scenarios. Valmore not too happy, but a lot of it is me; he’s scared of people still.

to be continued.

 

[Deleted User]

I wanted to add that even though it seems stressful, the new trio’s bond has been unaffected by the intro sessions to Clifford.

[Deleted User]

Posted By jerseygirl on 07/30/2009 05:16 PM

Are you going to become a professional bonder?

Jersey, funny. I'll add it to my resume, why not?! Then, all I have to do in a job interview, is explain what is wrong with me…

 

[mrmac]

They look like their doing well! I also found that carrying them in a box or basket was good stress bonding, that was almost better than the car rides. Its reassuring that the trio isn’t having issues!

[SirThumpsey]

Petzy, There is nothing wrong with you. It is really awesome that you have a way with rabbit bonding. I say, give it a shot! I’d hire you!

[Deleted User]

Thanks, Sir Thumpsey. — In my neck of the woods there is a very limited need for this sort of service.    I do think, however, it is easier to bond rabbits away from their home for obvious reasons. When this bunch arrived, they were very confused from having been displaced from their home and routines. It gave me an advantage.

Here are some photos showing  Valmore with his three sisters, he was the only boy. Excuse the crate, it’s not the best set-up, I had them in it only for night times when they were kits. Valmore is the only one of the 4 boys to bond now who had been at my house before but he was little then, and only in the basement (these kits were noisy).

The curious one in front  is Valmore’s sister.  Her coat’s ticking is more pronounced.

That’s Valmore again  behind his two black sisters.

 

The Agouti sister is bigger than Valmore now. (Valmore turning his back here)

As they were from a feral mother (she was caught pregnant), I notice that the agoutis seem to have a heavier coat on them than other domestic rabbits I have had. I’d say it’s my imagination but especially their white underside’s section of coat is very dense upon examination.  Is this an agouti trait?

 

[Deleted User]

Progress today. My plan was to basket Clifford first with Bugs, then with Roger and last with Valmore. I was thinking of pairing him up for a time with each of the three consecutively, from easy to harder bonds. But Clifford surprised me when he didn’t jump on Bugs this time like a deprived buck. He was calm. He did begin to ‘hang on’ to Bugs and there was some mounting but nothing seriously annoying.

I then quickly changed my mind and joined Roger.

the video is explicit but really I thought it went well.

I dared bring in Valmore. He froze, but didn’t freak out until muc later, and only mildly.

After Valmore got upset, I petted him hard until he calmed down, then I rocked them on the basket’s straps. I left them sitting like this for twenty-five minutes. Note in this photo, Valmore is touching with Clifford but keeping himself together.

i will repeat this tomorrow, and see if they are ready for a less confined space.

[mrmac]

Valmore looks much less freaked! Glad to see so much progress!!!

[Deleted User]

You know, mrmac, this time that I’ve been busy with the quartett I had to confine my own trio a little more than usual to keep them safe and separate. It has helped mine to really get close. Now I find Lint snuggled with Deirdra and Mops on a tiny square tile in the condo!

[mrmac]

After I had my three together for a little while Davey and Dexter turned more buddy buddy than Dex and Delilah! So funny how the ones who dont like eachother at first spend more time with eachother in the end! I made my deadline too with wanting them bonded before we left for vacation too! So funny how it all works out in the end!

[KatnipCrzy]

wow- that is amazing.  And I love seeing the “tub o’ bunnies”.

[Sarita]

I think if anyone can do this, you can Petzy :~) What a bunch of beautiful rabbits too. It’s interesting to see the dynamics of the bonding too. I think you do have a knack for this.

[Deleted User]

Today I left out Bugs. My reasoning was that watching back my clips I felt that he was like a magnet to Clifford and keeping him from attempting interactions with the other two.

Well, Valmore was nippy at first toward Clifford, so I let Roger join in for reassurance (Roger and valmore, even though newly bonded are really hitting it off). Still, Valmore wanted to chase Clifford out of the basket. I shook them up a bit, gently, to freeze up Valmore because he kept aggressing towrad Clifford. It worked. I thought it might be a good time to try the ‘bonding in suspense’ i had read about.

This is the set-up.

I rocked them, and ended on a good note.

 

this is how it was:

I like this approach for Valmore because he responds little to my attempts of calming him as he is just scared of people touching him.

I spent about 25 minutes all in all including transfers.

[mrmac]

I love that idea! I would think that Valmore still being touchy around people would make it a little harder in the bonding aspects. They look somewhat relaxed though!

[Deleted User]

This was taken last night . Watch Roger in this video.  They had been in a pile for about a half hour and it was crowded, Clifford humping the other three a little. When I took Clifford out to call it a session, I waited a little to see if the other three would stir at all, what they would do. Clifford slipped into a trance and Roger reminded Valmore and Bugs that without Clifford, he’s second to none. …

This morning I tried the 4 in a neutral cage together and it was chaos: circling, chasing, nipping, attempted mounting lots of fur plucking, between Valmore and Clifford and between Clifford and Roger. No real biting, though, just fur plucking, posturing and causing a big fuss.

After that I did a paired session with just Valmore and Clifford without any struggles, just quiet sitting.

I will focus on Roger and Clifford tonight, as a pair, possibly in a different area. Roger is the dominant bun in the trio (meaning Roger, Bugs and Valmore). Valmore acts out of defense toward Clifford. Bugs is still fine with Clifford.

[Monkeybun]

That’s a neat way of doing it, never would have thought of a basket suspended from the ceiling.

I think i recognise that green bin from when I lived in canada… from Superstore I think

[Deleted User]

Caught! Haha: yeah: I went shopping for bunnies at the Superstore!! — The basket, along with a cart (!!!) was sitting in the ditch where I walk in the morning. The cart was demolished. Now I wish I had a shopping cart, too, for more off-the-ground bonding !!

[mrmac]

What a lucky find! A shopping cart would be great too! I wish I could find one of the little ones that you see in some stores that are for the kids to push around!

Like this, but it’s expensive!!!: http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs…paignId=WP

You can actually find more shopping carts than I thought on ebay! hmmm… 

Clifford’s trance is so funny! 

[Deleted User]

…an old stroller (the pram kind) might work, too! Apparently, you can get strollers now for ferrets.

We are having the finest weather, not too hot, but sunny and gentle breeze. I let my trio on the patio, and Lint *knew* something was up on the other side of the board behind him (the new trio). He was on edge.

[mrmac]

Haha he’s all buggy! Mr. Lint always knows!!! Did Deirdra and Mops pay any attention to ‘the group behind the curtain’?

[Deleted User]

They couldn’t care less, they knew, however, that Lint was in a bad mood….

Lint and the two proceeded to move to the far south corner of the patio, the farthest spot away from the new trio. Notice, Lint ‘hiding’ behind them.

 

[mrmac]

[Deleted User]

Roger and Clifford paired bonding session — progress report:  — Poor.

Started out in a neutral cage,  with just the two buns in it.  A mute scuffle quickly ensued.  I had to break it up. These two are contenders for the quartett’s title of ‘top bunny”, and they both want it badly.  There is no footage as my camera was almost destroyed in the chaos. I couldn’t leave it at that, so it was back into the shopping basket for Roger and Clifford to rock around. They were feeling the stress by the time they were set up.

Once they had calmed, I could have left it alone for the day, but I wanted to see them in another place first outside the basket. I transferred the basket with them in it into my male dog’s cage (no dog involved).

They wouldn’t exit the basket at first…

but when they did, I had to use a broom to break up another fight.

I decided to stage one final interaction between them in the bath tub (the safest place I could think of).

They went at each other agaiin, I used running water noise and little splashes to stop them. Then they sat like here.

I waited for a long time, for everyone to cool off their tempers. Then I offered them apple slices and everyone ate, Clifford took some private time for cecals and grooming himself. After that, they went back into the basket (where they never fight) and I transferred their scent between their ears.

I put each bun into their own cage.

I will definitely have to focus on this pair for now before I can move on.

*I’d like to add that I am aware that this is putting the rabbits through a lot, and some people may argue not to bond any rabbits that fight. These rabbits will have a very good home especially if they bond; their owner cannot keep them separate forever as she already fosters other rabbits separately. If Clifford is not going to bond into the quartett, we could pair him up with Bugs. I still believe in the quartett’s possibility, though…

[Deleted User]

I should mention that upon Roger’s return to his two bonded friends, they examined him ears to tail… they picked up Clifford’s scent without a doubt but none were put off by it.

[mrmac]

Its so frustrating when the others get along but theres just those two that have to resolve thier issues. I definitely agree that you cant give up, the three are doing so well, it would seem a shame to stop just because of the two boys.

[Deleted User]

Not giving up. Just keeping track of the setbacks. I have time, too, they don’t have to be complete by any particular date.

[mrmac]

Thats always good to know that you arent in any kind of rush.

[Deleted User]

oh… mrmac, I like your new avatar pic! I’ve been reading about the ‘velveteen lop’ being a new designer breed of rabbit. I thought of Dexter!

[mrmac]

I have heard of them too, must have one someday!

[Deleted User]

Roger is not going to compromise. He will have to be the dominant bunny. I see in Clifford, though, in spite of his zest for humping (most likely due to his recent neuter a month ago) he isn’t an aggressive rabbit, at all.

Today I set up the neutral cage I had saved  in the yard.

(that stick I put there hoping they would run around it if a chase happened)

It was a desaster.

I wanted them to settle down in the carrier where they used to get along.

Once the dandies were eaten up, Roger attacked Clifford chasing him in slinky circles. 

I took them into the bathroom for a tub session, including Clifford’s stunt double for distraction.

I gave them apple slices, that they usually devour. But Roger, the food enthusiast, wouldn’t eat.

Roger very tense at this point, and to me it appeared as if he was scheming for a stealth attack.

Clifford was feeling insecure now. I tried to coax Roger into humping Clifford to establish him as the top bunny, but he wouldn’t go for it. Just hung there frozen.

I put them both on my lap but Roger just really wanted to escape.

‘What now’, I wondered. I needed a break-through, some change in this escalating aggression from Roger that had been building up. At this point, I didn’t even trust him in the suspended basket.

I remembered Lint, when I bonded him to Mops and also to Deirdra. I ran into the same dilemma: either no interaction (freeze) or fighting. With Lint and Mops my large patio area worked as it allowed Mops an escape when he felt threatened by Lint. I figured Cliffy could outrun Roger any time being a a tinier bunny, so… I transferred Roger and Clifford to the big patio.

There was chasing… but no fur-grabbing or latching on to each other!

Roger showing himself as the dominant with claiming both litter boxes, water bowl, food bowl, etc.

(The chasing might be good for Roger actually, who needs to slim down a little.)

They did take time-outs, too, for resting.

They spent five hours there. I am waiting for a sign of peace before I pair Clifford with Valmore and then with Roger and Valmore…

[mrmac]

I always hated that freeze up! I had to giggle a little in the video of them in the cage, their ears flopping up and down mid-chase! I’m not used to seeing loppy ears. The patio seemed good though for wasting energy chasing, and letting have the ability to run if they wanted.

[Deleted User]

No giggling here… even though I can see the homor in those flopping ears…

Roger is escalating. He is more dominant than I figured. Even though Cifford is showing himself not interested in fighting, Roger continues to lean into him. On the large deck space, they stick to opposite sides, avoiding interactions. If they run into one another, Clifford outruns Roger for his safety. The area of the space allows peaceful living (live and let live) of all 4 rabbits. But the space is too large to get them bonding to a point where they will share. 

and this is funny (I got sidetracked, been spending hours watching these guys)

— I always say “bond the easier bonds first” and from watching the 4 I felt that Roger with certainty is the hardest one to bond to Clifford. He is satisfied when Cllifford runs away from him, whereas Valmore isn’t really planning to chase Clifford off; he even gets freaked out a little by Clifford’s sudden take-offs.

I decided to bond Valmore and Cifford before further pursuing the bond to Roger.

I started them in the bathroom.

…then on the large deck alone…

Then I set up a 50″ by 45″ bonding pen for the daytime. They can be outside all day, the weather is cool enough.

I first introduced all 4 bunnies into the pen to declare it theirs, together. Roger started chasing Clifford, I used a broom, or squirt bottle to stop him. This activity frightened little bugs, and I removed him. I am pretty sure Bugs knows that when Roger gets agitated he will aggress to any rabbit, including him. Valmore deals with this very well, he has a positive effect on Roger, sort of like Mops had on Lint. I got the 3 settled (Roger, Clifford and Valmore) and sat by the pen for a half hour.

Roger quite wet, I had to use the squirt bottle often.

Then I removed Roger, put him in a small crate to rest.

I exchanged him for Bugs hoping I can bond Clifford, Bugs and Valmore into a happy trio over the nest few days.

well, it will take time. At least everyone is calm.

[mrmac]

Is the “getting along trio” still getting along? Valmore is much more persistant about chasing, and doesnt give up when he moves.

[Deleted User]

I’m making a plan for the night time. I definitely do not trust Valmore to stay with Bugs and Clifford — valmore is not bonded to Clifford, just stopped fighting him. I’d like to keep Roger away from Bugs at this point because he will have Clifford’s scent on him very fresh. I could leave Valmore and Roger together, they would be very happy together but it would only turn them into one nasty team against the other two.

So, I will let Clifford have Bugs overnight in my large dog cage. I will keep Roger by himself in a small cage and in another I already separated Valmore out. I will not put them within line of vision of one another — that’s another thing that makes Roger more agggressive.

Before I put them away in this way, I let Roger and Clifford have the large patio. There was chasing initiated by Roger, but as long as Clifford stays away a certain distance he’s satisfied (reminds me of Lint and Deirdra at that stage).

 

I know, this cage is too small for Valmore, it’s only for one night, though.

I am wondering why most people recommend very small quarters for bonding; I couldn’t do any of mine in the small areas. I went through my bonding album of Lint and Mops from 6 months ago, and this scene was the beginning of the end of all fighting. There was chasing but they agreed if a certain distance was kept they would keep from chasing. After a few days of routines, the distance diminished. This is what I’m hoping for with Roger and Clifford, even though they are not half as fond of each other as compared to Lint and Mops. I worry Roger may not bond to Clifford. We’ll see…

(Lint & Mops first time outside bonding session.)

 

[Deleted User]

yes, the initial trio of Roger, Valmore and Bugs is still going strong. I think, Valmore acts dominant when Roger is around. That’s why I separated him out for now.

[mrmac]

That pic of Lint and Mops is funny and does remind me of mine too, they were satisfied and didnt chase as long as everyone kept their distance, and werent sitting in a spot they wanted to be sitting in.

[Deleted User]

you know, I miss my rabbits! The patio deck is booked. Mine are stuck in their condo!

[mrmac]

It really makes you think how easy your’s are doing another bonding!

[Deleted User]

What do you mean, mac? Another bonding, mine? I think, too many rabbits have slowed my brain.

[mrmac]

I mean the 4 boys compared to your 3 that are settled and getting along.

[Deleted User]

True.
The 4 boys are a handful. Roger being used to being a tyrant (toward Bugs) and Valmore, son to a 12-lbs feral mother…. and Clifford, just neutered a month ago and never seen another rabbit before!

[mrmac]

I’d say that adds a little bit more complcation to the mix!

[Deleted User]

I paired Clifford up with Bugs for the night. Clifford has to rebond with him, their bond had been only tentative and the stress from the meetings with the other two undid it. I will have these two in my room in a cage.

Valmore is really learning Roger’s moves, plus, his young age is making him cause trouble in other ways, too. He started chewing things so I can’t leave him uncaged without watching him.

Roger wasn’t as bad toward the end of the day. His chasing was shorter-lived, but Clifford is highly guarded around him and Valmore.

[jerseygirl]

What’s the dynamic like between Roger, Bugs and Clifford? Wondering what effect Bugs has in Roger and if this aids or aggravates things between Roger and Clifford.  Forgive me if you’ve already mentioned this – my brain too is slowed from trying to follow these buns.

[Deleted User]

Jersey, you are still with it! That’s the one configuration I haven’t done! I wanted to wait until I get Cliford and Bugs bonded and Roger less hostile. Roger tends to use Bugs as a stand-in for whoever he’s pursuing.

Before i put them away last night I split up the pairs, though. I had Valmore with Bugs (positive bond) and Roger with Clifford in a blocked off corner.

It didn’t go too badly, especially considering that Roger must remember the corner space as having been his before. I am running out of neutral zones. I still have a spot in the basement but I’m saving it in case all else fails. The main part of my house is not available, this was a condition in my household I agreed to when I first took on this task.

I also put the 4 together one last time in this smaller space as this former territory didn’t seem to be an issue.

It was a short session, Clifford needed to get a long break over night.

During the night I ended up separating Clifford and Bugs. Clifford was hanging on to Bugs and literally plucking bits of his fur. It had to stop.

This morning as soon as the sun was up, I reunited everybody on the deck. ..

 

[Deleted User]

After 4 hours on the large deck, I scooped up the 4 rabbits, and set them up in the small corner section to make them interact.

The scene icludes: 4 litter boxes, three food bowls, two water dishes and one open carrier for hide-out. Sharing isn’t even being addressed at this point, just coexistence.

First I followed Jersey’s suggestion, and left out Valmore. He is in the crate here.

Then all 4. Valmore seems to have claimed the crate for himself.

Clifford still has his four-way flashers on, but at least he’s not just sitting frozen.

There has been a change. Roger no longer chasing Clifford with determination, just casually. He will nip at Clifford’s rear, but I take this a sign of progress since at least he’s checking him out.

Also, Roger and Valmore are a match like they were designed for one another. They are equals in many ways. Valmore will not be humped, and still Roger prefers  Valmore over Bugs. Bugs used to tolerate Roger but showed little personality around him.

Bugs now really bonding with Clifford, and it is giving Clifford security, yesterday still he would dart off in a crazy rush whenever Bugs got close.

I wonder if the nightly fur-plucking that Clifford performed on Bugs was out of frustration from a stressful bonding day, and not at all personal.

–These 4 will spend the day like that.

 

[mrmac]

In the third video there was the little nose bump to Cliffords rear, even when he approached he didnt seem so focused on him just was a check out bump. Some progress!

[Deleted User]

Huge progress when I consider I didn’t need to use a broom or squirt bottle today!

[mrmac]

That is a big step!!!!!

[Deleted User]

I’ve moved things along fast. I felt that it was safe. It had been 10 hours that they had been spending together today without any fighting. Clifford, even though on edge, no longer frozen, will do routines in a corner by himself with Bugs visiting and sometimes Roger, too.

Valmore seems to get worse the more time he spends with Roger alone. Bugs seemingly moves freely between everybody.

I relocated everybody into the final bonding pen I built yesterday. First, I placed Roger and Clifford with only two litter boxes. I even had my dog in there with them to take up much of the room without being an object that they would take possession of. (All the rabbits are fine with the dog, except Valmore.) I didn’t want Roger to have too much room to chase Cllifford. After a while, I added Bugs without troubles. I removed the dog. I started adding things, another litter box, a piece of cardboard a grid tunnel, and last Valmore locked up inside the small crate. Roger is no longer aggressive toward Clifford but wanting to hump him. Clifford scared of him in those moments. I released Valmore from the crate and he went to be with Roger. Clifford set himself up in a corner, where he has his own access to water, litter, food, and hay. When he feels safe he can venture into the other zones. He has but runs back to his spot as soon as he meets one of the others. He is overreacting a bit at this point, but I can’t blame him. Roger and Valmore have to earn his trust now!

The pen is busy with objects, I didn’t want open space. This caused a problem before.

Clifford’s ‘station’

There are 3 litter boxes now, 3 food bowls and three water supplies. I’m not sure if I want to do another paired session between Clifford and Valmore. Over the weekend, if it doesn’t rain I’d like to keep them in this pen to mix. As long as Clifford is munching and not spazzing I know he can do it. At night, I”ll split them up though because I don’t want to sleep on my deck!!!!

[jerseygirl]

The 4 together seems to be doing better.
I was feeling sorry for Bugs thinking Roger & Clifford were much same toward him but has Cliff become less humpy? It could well be stress related. Do you think now the newness of other rabbits being about has worn off, that Cliff is less humpy? Def, he is least threatened by Bugs. It really appears that it’s Clifford that is learning bunspeak and generally being around others.
With Roger & Bugs, I had wondered whether them being separated had affected Roger at all? It seems not… as long as another bun is about.
So funny Valmore sitting in his castle crate. They’re all so funny to watch.

[Deleted User]

I think, I started too early. I was wrong with the neuter date on Clifford. My friend’s vet was supposed to do him sooner than he did (Clifford was boarded at the vet’s for a week!) — so he was humpy owing to residual hormones.
Roger didn’t seem to be upset by being separate from Bugs, but whenever I remove Valmore he’s really looking for him. I know that Valmore and Roger will be tight, and I expect the same thing for Clifford and Bugs, but the two pairs need to ‘inter’-bond, too!!! So there you have it, how a multiple bonding broke up an existing pair! But for the better in the end, I think.

[Deleted User]

Update. I had to go back to paired-bonding. The quartett was living together for three days, separate at nights, but they weren’t bonding. It seemed that Valmore was hanging around Roger all the time and Bugs and Clifford kept low profiles. I didn’t trust them to just work it out on their own, especially with Valmore’s volative temper. He’s the bun to ‘beat’ in this quartett.

 

[Deleted User]

The two new pairs have been together two days and two nights, Valmore and Bugs’ thing I was able to wheel inside, but Roger and Clifford stayed on the patio and I was worried! It’s getting colder here once again so no mosquitoes. I was worried about everything else. I had the pen covered tightly and made my dogs’ bed out on the deck, too. I slept in the living room where I could hear with the patio window cracked. They were very busy during the night, I checked a few times and every time I got that “what’s up now/did you bwing tweats??” – look from them.
I’m debating whether to move Roger and Clifford into the basement at night, I just think, Lint really picked up on their presence when I did it before. He’s mad.

[Deleted User]

I had to make a plan for bonding Clifford and Valmore. I want to do short sessions in a small space, but bigger and more ‘natural’ than a bath tub. I divided the pen.

Here’s the space I’m looking at now. It measures only 30″ by 46″.

 

At night Clifford will stay with Roger.  Valmore will stay with Bugs, and the small space will be empty.

That way, each new pairing will have their own space: Roger/Clifford, Valmore/Bugs and Valmore/Clifford — I’m not doing anything with Clifford and Bugs. They are easy to rebond if necessary.  Roger and Valmore are the strongest bond I have ever seen so no work on them either.

They each get run-time in pairs on the deck for a couple of hours; I can put all 4 out for exercise together but I really don’t want to have any bad run-ins/chases between Valmore and Clifford, so I am holding off with that for now.

 

[Deleted User]

guys, i’m overdue for an update! but my camera charger/loader is on the fritz so all my photos are stuck in my SD card for now. i will show them later.

I’ve had a setback. Everybunny is bonded very closely now to everybunny except for Valmore and Clifford still. if anything, their ‘relationship’ has been undone. I am tempted to send them home for a cooling-off period but I’m going to try a short break first and some stress bonding then. The situation is this: ever since they got into the fight over Clifford’s corner, there is a tension between them. Clifford sets out to attack Valmore and Valmore reciprocates. It is a bad situation. If I hadn’t seen things turn around as they did between Roger and Clifford I would call it off now. Brooms or squirts of water don’t stop these guys. When I put them them into the swinging basket i have to pet their heads my hardest to keep the nippage in check. Bathtub still works but only because of the threat of water.
For now, I have made one huge pen, 90″ by 50″ for the trio consisting of Roger, Bugs and Valmore or Clifford taking turns. Whenever Clifford gets to be part of the trio, Valmore is in a cage that is in the pen, elevated off the ground (there was biting through the bars when I had it on the ground), and vice versa.

i did have one improvement though. A few days ago still, whenever I put Valmore into the trio he would go in a frenzy smelling Clifford on Roger and Bugs… he doesn’t do this anymore after a few switches. i know, Valmore is afraid of Clifford and fights for that reason. Clifford resents him because he challenged him….

[Deleted User]

I browsed back through my bonding album of Lint and Deirdra to look for I don’t know what. I am trying to figure out the roels in the warfare between Val and Cliff. Clifford starts it. His ears, being a lop, don’t give it away but that tail of his is always up when he feels Val to be near. I remember that tail from Lint whenever he was confronted with Deirdra; but Deirdra was laid-back compared to Valmore.

Clifford will try humping Roger even, the boss of their trio, but Roger has a way of putting Clifford into his place with one quick pinch/nip.

I know Valmore and Clifford must settle their dispute but of course I want no bloodshed… any neutral place I’ve put them in Clifford wants to drive Valmore out. Clifford is a bit mean in that sense, will not settle for just a distance to be respected between him and Valmore — no: Valmore must be driven out…

It’s ironic that Clifford turns out to be such a little bulldog toward other rabbits when he is without question the sweetest bunny ever from a human perspective. (nothing against bulldogs, just that they, too, will not back down)

…how long will a rabbit remember? If i were to suspend this bond how many months will do?

[jerseygirl]

Clifford tries to drive Valmore out when in neutral space – just the 2 of them in this space or in with Bugs and Roger also?
Def try stress bonding – maybe a car ride? It’s what seems to be recommended when 2 bonded rabbits have a falling out.

[Deleted User]

Just the two of them, but he will also try it when R&B are there!!!!

I will do the car ride!!

[jerseygirl]

Car ride on the way back to their owner? tehe! j/k But man you have some patience.

[Deleted User]

I did a car ride, what a stress — for ME! Valmore scurried under the seat in terror and Clifford thought it was time for him to get his own licence. There is no stressor that stresses Clifford.

I did a variation on a bathtub session. I put them in the tub with about a half inch of lukewarm water in it and a towel on the bottom, soaking/floating. They didn’t fight. I was able to do scent transfer without any scuffles that way.

After the session I blowdried Clifford, he didn’t mind, Valmore would have gone into a type of shock so he had to dry in a carrier.

[Deleted User]

OK. 4 hours after the tub session I tried another ride set-up. (car ride without assistant = bad idea!) I remembered one of my dog travel crates has wheels. It measures 40″ by 26″. I put Valmore in, then Clifford, nothing else, no food, no litter box, no towel or blanket.
I jerked this crate back and forth, sort of like a washing machine motion. They tried to chase around but the footing was too insecure and after about 30 seconds Clifford decided first that it was best to stay still, and made himself flat. Valmore sat with wide eyes. I slowed down the motion and eventually stopped moving the crate altogether. They stayed for seven minutes, then Clifford got up to explore… he ran into Valmore and a confrontation ensued. I let it go on for a moment as it didn’t have that scary frenzied quality. They bounced off each other and then grabbed and held each other for a while by their fur but didn’t try to yank or bite hard to break skin or ears. I opened the crate and gently separated them off each other. I hit the top of the crate like a thump noise and started to move the crate again, slowly. They froze and stayed. I stopped the motion and they stayed put for 5 minutes more when I ended the session. I put Valmore in the big pen with R&B, Roger immediately started grooming him. Clifford went into Valmore’s cage. There was lots of fur fluffs in the crate on wheels but no scratches on the rabbits. It was stressful, even for Clifford, but in the end I felt it was a small break-through. At least, I feel I can repeat this type of session and I will see by any improvements if there is hope!

[Deleted User]

JerseyG, I read back your comments and it occurred to me that what went down between Val and Cliff had been more than a falling out. — I was so focused on Roger and Clifford that I missed the bad vibes transpiring between Valmore and Clifford… I think you had picked up on it after I posted a video… I didn’t think Clifford would reciprocate toward Valmore since he doesn’t with Roger… I learn from this that one rabbit will not necessarily act the same when matched with different rabbits even if the matches happen concurrently. Even today when Clifford spend his time with R&B he will take corrective nips from Roger in stride, like when he tries to mount Roger, he will get nippeed for it and never fights for it.
I will do another ride in the crate early tomorrow morning before the rabbits settle for their daytime snooze…

[jerseygirl]

All are neutered right? I was trying to think what else might factor in with Cliff & Val and was thinking one is newly fixed and one the other is in bunny puberty. If Val is fixed, how long ago was that? I think hormones (even when bun is already fixed) can come into play. Would it be possible Cliffords residual hormones and Valmores pubescent hormones or even just his younger self could be a factor? Or that they’re just not reading each other bunny language yet?

I would be having trouble distinguishing all the subtleties and tracking progress. I recall being confused when bonding just my two, having read so much then trying to process all I was observing also. I can’t imagine bonding 4 after just having bonded 3. Do you see bunnies in your sleep? Though having said that, sometime after mine were done bonding and things had regained some normalacy, I did want to bond more rabbit pairs. It’s great when you get to see the result -bonded bunnies- and I would want to get better with it.

[Deleted User]

I should have seen it, the thing between Valmore and Clifford. I didn’t miss it reallly but underestimated it. — Everybunny is neutered, yes. Valmore is actually older than I always think. I keep thinking he’s 5 months, but he’s over 6 months now. He was neutered right at 4 and a half months. My guess is that Valmore wasn’t interested in bonding again to anybun after Roger. I think, it was too much to deal with… puberty is another factor… I wonder if the sequence of the bonds mattered, should I have paired up Valmore and Clifford first?
Today’s session made me think of calling it off. It started out well, but then Valmore was really trying to get to Clifford and the motion of the crate didn’t matter to him. Today’s session was a step down from where we were yesterday, no progress. Clifford showed that he was stressed out. Valmore wasn’t. I need more time. I need to break this pattern….

[Deleted User]

Obviously I’m researching more bonding tricks… I need them now.

I’m looking at forced bonding at this point between Valmore and Clifford. In other words, if this was bunny dating, these two would not be chosen for each other… — I spoke to my friend, their owner, about it, she isn’t going to give up Clifford (he still is the sweetest bun ever) but she still wishes them to bond, for me to keep trying.

i read on http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml about the ‘wear them down” method for rabbits that are stuck, not progressing:

The Wear Them Down Method

Sometimes the best approach is to force the issue. On a day that I don’t mind spending inside, I will set up the exercise pen in the living room. Get the supplies (water bottle/gloves/sneakers) ready, pop in a movie and place the buns in the pen. Leave them in the entire day and spray them everytime you see an aggressive sign. They must stay in the pen. Sooner or later, and sometimes it truly is later, they will start to give up the idea of fighting and just kind of sulk. After periods of sulking, one bun may approach the other one in a submissive position. They may attempt to fight again (in which case spray and continue) or they may start to accept each other. Eventually they will reach an uneasy truce and look towards building a peaceful coexistence together. If at the end of an all day session, I feel like they are unlikely to fight, I will move the exercise pen into my bedroom and have them spend the night in it. This way if they do happen to tussle, I will wake up and stop it.

–only, water squirts might not work on Valmore, at least not with the squirt bottle I have been using.

Well, I do like the movie watching requirement, though!

I might set myself up on the patio with garden hose in the evening, the one with the flat mist fan. I want to get Valmore to stop making aggressive advances toward Clifford.

The wheel crate is off the table for now, Cllifford is too much at risk in it.

[RachelB]

{{{sending happy bunny vibes}}}

I hope that the wear down method works for you with those two stuborn buns. I actually bonded my bunnies Samson and Ivy this way. My experience however was much much easier than it seems you are having because I didnt have ANY aggression at all between these two. They’ve been together ever since I put them in there at 7pm last Thursday (minus a 3 hour much needed sleep break– (FOR ME) the 1st day) and a 1 hr cool off time the second. By the middle of the 3rd day they seemed to be bestest buddies. I think once your guys figure out that thats just how its gonna be…. they are going to HAVE to stay in that area together, then maybe just maybe they will begin to tolerate eachother.

I hope it works out well for you!!!!

[Deleted User]

Thank you Rachel I am glad yours are bonding!
–I have to wonder with these guys if it’s the right thing… i don’t like the idea of forced bonding. However, I forced my own rabbit Lint to like Deirdra when I first adopted her… and it was worth it in retrospect….

[mrmac]

I would call that what I did with Delilah and Dexter to start off with too. I just made them be together after we werent seeing as much progression with the stress bonding. I think it would totally be worth it in the end (hopefully there is an end).

[Deleted User]

I cleaned the large patio pen then and removed the plywoood I had been using as their floor. I removed their toys and branches. I hosed the deck boards down. Then I put all 4 rabbits in, they hadn’t eaten their pellets yet. I served their dinner in two bowls. I put down two litter pans. I had a spray bottle as well as the garden hose ready. We spent two hours like this and I was able to ward off any fights with squirts of water. Roger humped Valmore who didn’t mind, Clifford humped Bugs who didn’t mind, everybunny groomed, ate lots, and eyed the others….I offered a new branch to gnaw which most of them tried, too. Roger wanted to fight with Clifford, so that’s a step back, Valmore was more hesistant toward Clifford. Clifford himself was tense. Even when I held him on my lap as I was sitting inside the pen he darted off when Valmore gestured he might approach.

I wanted a break so I paired Bugs with Clifford and moved them into the cage. Roger is paired with Valmore in a crate. I am using the pen for now only for sessions. I will do another one tonight.

[Deleted User]

oh, mac, “hopefully there is an end”!! LOL! you are scaring me! Really it hasn’t been all that long. Apparently quartetts can take months… I’m just being a complainer!

[mrmac]

It always seems to drag sooo much even though it hasnt been that long at all! Two months seemed so long doing mine, but it really wasnt! We all need our complaining moments!!! 

[Deleted User]

I’m planning to do a night time session, in the dark… when they are most active, you know. Wish me luck!!

[mrmac]

Good Luck! Night time was always good for sessions when theyre not so sleepy and lazy during the day!

[Deleted User]

Sleepy and  G R O U C H Y !
 

[Deleted User]

(I wish I had my videos uploaded but my base for my camera is still out of service…)

Tonight’s session (in the dark) was longer. First I put the 4 in the large patio pen. They were active. In the beginning I had to squirt water but not much. There was a short state of confusion as they tried to figure out who was there and who was who… Clifford is back to his flight-rather-than-fight mode. Right now, Valmore and Clifford are back where they were before their fight, Valmore wishing him gone and Clifford on guard but as long as their space is large they can avoid each other, sometimes I have to help with squirting Val with water (wear them down method). However, Clifford’s and Roger’s bond has again disintegrated in the past days that I had focused on his bond to Valmore. (Maybe the concurrent bonding sessions is a mistake… I thought that it was better to work on everybunny’s bond rather than letting some pairs cement deeply first) — After the quartett session I paired Valmore with Bugs in the cage and took Roger and Clifford into the living room while I watched TV. I had them sit in my lap for about an hour petting them. They explored a little on my dogs’ bed, too, and then I paired them up for the night in my room. I think keeping them separate overnight puts everybun back a step.

Honestly, is anybody still with this?

[SirThumpsey]

You know, if the spray bottle isn’t working you might wanna try something else. This might actually be a bad idea, but my friend told me to put a little bit of vinegar (no more than a quarter) in with the water. I’ve never tried it but I bet their little noses wouldn’t like it much. You just gotta be careful around their eyes.

[RachelB]

The spray bottle didnt work for me at all- actually the bunnies seemed to like it?!?!?! I would clap my hands and scream “no”. They would both usually look up startled and that was enough to break the concentration on what was happening. I also found it helpful to have a jar of pennies or a pan to smack on the ground (eventually my hands hurt from clapping). The loud noise and no seemed to work pretty well for my guys. Granted I wasnt breaking up fights more just crazy running and backwards mounting…. but it might work for you.

[Deleted User]

Interesting ideas. I have had better luck with the spray bottle yesterday because I am getting better at aiming it right at the right time… . I am squirting Valmore close on his little forehead. I found also that if I hit the patio floor with water from my garden hose it makes a sound that sends them scurrying away from each other. This of course wouldn’t work indoors or on grassy ground.
The jar of pennies I will definitely try to move on from the water eventually… when things improve.

[Deleted User]

Roger and Clifford spend the night in my room with lots of space for each other and I didn’t have to separate them. They are not as close as they used to be, not sharing litter box, not grooming, it’s all been undone by the chaos with Valmore. I do think I can get their friendship back though. I want to fix this now before it goes downhill any further.

[Jenna, Chubs & Comet]

Chubs was also totally unphased by the spray bottle. I have to make a loud noise and clap to get his attention during a date! The pennies is a jar is a good plan…

[Deleted User]

 To all the Crickets on this forum that are reading here but saying nothing:
I want opinions on this question: (please)

Should I do a session between Valmore and Clifford tonight? Clifford’s bond to Roger is fragile but they can be left together over night. Clifford would have Roger’s scent on him going into the session which should make him more acceptable to Valmore.

I was planning a run time together on the big patio between Valmore and Clifford under supervision with no fighting allowed at all.

 

[mrmac]

I think it would be worth a try…

[Deleted User]

mac, I appreciate your input… I need moral support!

[Deleted User]

Yesterday and today I have been rebonding Roger and Clifford. — I held them together lots, did a car ride with them, put them into the crate on wheels and had them spend time in my room alone together. I transferred them into their new small cage for housing over night, and I held my breath…. Clifford finally stopped freaking out every time Roger got near, and allowed Roger to rest on top of him for like a solid half hour!!!!! This is big, because you can’t bond with Roger unless he gets to do that. Clifford surprised me with this as he is not a submissive bun at all.

I don’t want to ‘use up’ my big pen for housing as it will render it unneutral for bonding between Valmore and Clifford. I want Clifford only in that pen when I do sessions that include Valmore. i also don’t want Roger in there without everybunny else because he’s such a dominant bun, he will become territorial, and so would Clifford. The other problem is Roger and Valmore together — they should not be together I feel until I see progress between Valmore and Clifford. Whenever i have allowed them to meet again, it is the reunion of two soul mates: Roger will spend an hour doting over Valmore, with humping, grooming, snuggling and more… it is ridiculous!

So I have Bugs living in the big pen as a sort of placeholder… Valmore is in a small space adjacent to the pen by himself, and Roger and Clifford together are adjacent to the big pen in a small cage as well. These two small enclosures are not touching each other because Clifford will bite and box at Valmorel if he can.
Bugs can touch noses with everybunny, though.
(I know photos would really help, hopefully coming soon)

I am also again using the rest of the patio space for runtime which i monitor to prevent any fights. — this is more intense than bonding my trio, i have to have gear ready to step in at any given moment.

I can’t do small space stress sessions between Valmore and Clifford, they WILL fight. It is only possible to set them up in a space large enough for them to avoid each other but I have to make them avoid each other with squirts of water. My next goal is to get past forced-avoidance to voluntary avoidance and then ignoring…. that seems a far stretch right now!

[Deleted User]

i watched my bonding clips from before and it seems so unbelievable now that Clifford and Valmore were able to sit beside one another… this is very interesting, how they went from tolerance to antipathy.

[Deleted User]

I’m taking today off! No bonding sessions, everyone needs a break, animals and humans alike!
How peaceful….

[Deleted User]

My patio is now unavailable along with my picture loader! We got rain, I mean the sort that doesn’t stop. With rolling thunder, lightning and hail. At least the power came back on.
–I did a session in my room, with Clifford, Roger and Bugs, then in a small carrier, and it went well. I caged them in my basement to cement their bond. So Valmore is by himself in his cage in my room for a few days. I am figuring his bond to Roger won’t break easily (I’m taking my chances) and so I will give the Clifford-trio time to stick.

So far I’ve gone from just throwing everybunny together (which worked in the beginning after Roger and Valmore were bonded), to bonding two trios and four pairings out of this quartett but I can’t get around the on-on-one of Valmore and Clifford…

[mrmac]

Maybe Valmore just needs some alone time… he is the youngest out of the 4 correct?

[Deleted User]

yes, he is. I’m wanting to take some time with him for handling and to understand him better.

[mrmac]

I agree…see his true self! The trio is doing well though?

[Deleted User]

Yes, thanks, the trio with Clifford in it is peaceable. Clifford, however, is still showing fear at times of Roger, even though Roger is very kind to him.

–I started another thing to try. I couldn’t find my clicker I had used with Lint and Deirdra during bonding to associate each other with a click plus a treat… but I am ringing a low-pitch hound sporting bell to train Valmore and the trio whenever I feed them treats. I hope to be able to replace nasty (negative) squirts of water eventually with positive bell sounds to divert the rabbits if they are about to fight.

[mrmac]

Thats such a good idea, I hope it works! I never thought of the clicker!

[jerseygirl]

Posted By Petzy on 08/23/2009 09:47 PM
Yes, thanks, the trio with Clifford in it is peaceable. Clifford, however, is still showing fear at times of Roger, even though Roger is very kind to him.

I was going to be Devils Advocate and suggest putting Roger, Valmore and Clifford together…..maybe not !

One thing I think you did with your trio was give a big pile of dandelions.  Have you tried giving an irresistable food to Clifford and Valmore when they’re together?  Sorry – I’m really out of ideas!

[jerseygirl]

Also, you mentioned elsewhere that Clifford is quite thin. Do you think something is going on with him healthwise? That this could be affecting his behavior?
I’m wondering if your friend would be happy with a trio of Rog, Bugs +Val and looking to bond someone else with Clifford. Or 2 pairs Bugs+Cliff, Rog+Val. Or…is Valmore the stickler who may be better suited bonded to another rabbit?

[Deleted User]

Clifford arrived here skinny, possibly from his boarding week at the vet’s, plus he previously came from a ‘hayless’ background. I am now feeding him his pellets separately, at least the minimum portion of it.
I have discussed with my friend his status if he doesn’t bond before the winter (just around the corner). It is harder for me to have them here once it gets cold as I do not have a long-term large bonding space indoors that I can use. My friend would want the Valmore-trio and keep Clifford at her store with her cat. I imagine he would like this as he loves people and cats. He probably doesn’t know he is a rabbit. If this happens, we’ll see if we find another candidate to bond to him in the spring maybe — I had been thinking of bunny-dating him to Mops or Deirdra as a road test but how much can a little lop bunny tolerate? It’s just too stressful, so I will let him settle down with R&B and see where I get with him and Valmore in the next couple of weeks. The good thing is when they go home, their own space at my friend’s house will be neutral. She has made a new spot for them to cement any new bonds made.

[Deleted User]

About the dandelions… yes, I have tried that, putting in front of them a fresh pile: Valmore was ducking in the background just coming up briefly to snatch a leaf and then run with it. But I had more luck with unhealthy treats. I got them eating oats together, and some craisins, too. That where I want to start sounding that bell I was talking about so they will eventually associate that sound with good events.

[Deleted User]

OK. I gathered Valmore and Clifford from their peaceful (separate!) basement dens and held them in my smallest carrier bottom on my lap for 30 minutes. They were touching each other’s sides in the carrier and I transferred their scent between them. Valmore wanted to bite at Clifford but I woudn’t let him, Clifford didn’t do anything. I didn’t make it stressful, just petted them down and made grooming motions on Valmore’s head. I have to be on guard not to let anything bad happen between these guys at all.

[mrmac]

I agree that they need to relate eachother with something positive, it seems everytime they have a tiff they take major steps backwards. Valmore the little instigator…

[Deleted User]

At least I have clued in to what’s going on between them. Valmore is scared. SCARED. He has some scratches on him, definitely from Clifford. Clifford has incisor marks on one ear from Valmore. Clifford is scared, too, but not as panicky. Clifford is more stoic, he will wait but once offended he can get nasty. . Why Valmore challenged Clifford in the first place I’m not sure. Valmore started out fighting with Roger as well in the beginning but they quickly settled that Roger would be boss.

[Deleted User]

Today is a perfect bonding day, I have a couple of hours alone and caught up with other things. Sunny weather, too, and not a sound to hear. This is my anti-stress bonding phase…

I don’t want to do an evening session because I have bats on my deck now.

I got Valmore and Clifford up from their snooze to have them sit in my lap in the carrier bottom. Then I put them out on the deck that I had changed for them. The deck pen is now gone. Just open space and lots of it. Only the two of them and I knew they were sleepy. Clifford sitting tensely in a corner like Lint used to and Valmore hopping around, binkying. After a while they went to opposite far corners and flopped. If they get to each other they will still fight so I have to watch them now. (I threw a cage top over Clifford so I could type this up)

[mrmac]

At least it is a plus that they aren’t going to seek the other one out and fight. Afternoon is always the best groggy sleepy time! Is it just them getting close to eachother that instigates a fight?

[Deleted User]

Cllifford still does not trust Valmore, is my impression. Valmore wants to meet him now but Clifford says “no way”. Clifford will either run away from him or turn and fight, I’m a little uneasy with them meeting nose-to-nose, haven’t let them at this point.

[mrmac]

I would be too. Has Clifford always not trusted Valmore?

[Deleted User]

No he never did, he used to run away from him but now I think they will fight.
Valmore being kind of friendly toward him but to no avail.
Valmore vocalizes around Clifford: he bleats like a lamb at times.

[mrmac]

Thats weird?! Stubborn Clifford…

[Deleted User]

i am beginning to think, the littler the bunny the harder they bite…

[mrmac]

I think thats true! They have a little feisty streak in them!

[jerseygirl]

Bleats like a lamb! And Bugs who makes cute sleep noises too. You’re going to have to get onto recording these sounds! If you’ve seen a change in V toward C maybe short but consistant time together, Cliff will become more relaxed. It’s hard to read that Lop language sometimes. Vals change is a positive step forward so hold onto that. (((Vibes)))

[Deleted User]

I have it in my camera but it looks like I will have to buy a new charging base for it.

When V bleats though it means he is not happy, I am sure of that! So I want no bleating…

I am quickly learning to read the lop…. Clifford’s tail alone gives away his feelings without subtlety, and his intentions toward Valmore aren’t noble.
So I had an absurd idea last night. I dated Valmore with Lint, yup, Lint himself. — What was I thinking? I thought if Valmore had the scent of a new rabbit on him, maybe Cllifford would be more curious about him. So Valmore and Lint sat on my dryer for a time with Lint looking for an escape. Being rexy-coated, with no fur to really grab, I was very careful not to have Valmore nip at my bunny… I wanted to use Deirdra but that would have been bad for her to have that new scent.
It did nothing for Valmore/Clifford, but it was very humbling to Lint: he returned to the condo and had to endure questioning from his friends:”where were you? why do you smell like another rabbit?” Lint looked so meek, and just sat in one of the cubes quietly while Deirdra and Mops examined him.

[Deleted User]

I’m sorry guys, only text again. Still no access to my camera files.

I held a quartett session today, on the deck. The first in a while. The Clifford trio is sticking but Valmore was readily welcomed by Roger. However, I noticed Valmore nippy toward Bugs, little, harmless Bugs. I think, Valmore is trying to say he wants to be with Roger and Roger only. Valmore is just a teenager, I’m sure it’s a phase. He does some seriously silly stuff!

Clifford emitted a bonding stench and he is also the only one using poo warfare.

Clifford and Valmore were both active on the large deck and both were nippy toward one another. Clifford put a chase on Valmore at one point, but nobunny got to use their teeth at all, I am getting pretty good with the spray bottle and they know it. Mostly I just need to posture as if I’m going to use it and they break it up. That’s a step up.

[mrmac]

Davey and Delilah got to this point too. They knew they were doing something wrong and werent allowed to do it, all I had to do was move like I was coming over to their pen and they would stop. Poor little Bugs What is the status of Roger and Clifford?

[jerseygirl]

So I had an absurd idea last night. I dated Valmore with Lint, yup, Lint himself. — What was I thinking?

A-ha! Now it’s obvious – you’re projecting that you don’t truly want V & C to bond – hence their difficulties…. because you actually want to keep V! Or is it C you want? Mmm….? j/k
Well Petzy, slowly keep chipping away with these 2 – I’m cheering you on.

[Deleted User]

(Isn’t it amazing how you can pick up on a nuance like this from so far away (Australia)? I love this about the forum…) — Yes, jersey, my subconscious has jinxed the bonding… j/k!

I do enjoy Valmore enough to not mind this taking longer. 

The meeting between Valmore and Lint was partly for me, yes, I wanted to see what the bunny-dating feels like, when your bun gets to meet another without you having to keep that other bun necessarily. –Well, it’s not that stress-free, as I found out. In addition, it’s hard to get all the clues from one meet.

Mac: Clifford and Roger are getting along! Their bond is happening but not like Valmore’s and Roger’s… those two (V&R) are still the strongest bond. Even while they are not housed together (so to bond C with R&B), they never have any reunion issues. I want to show my videos very much because Roger and Valmore have such fun together, it’s exhilarating.

 

[Deleted User]

i need cheering on!

[mrmac]

GO PETZY GO!!! BOND, BOND, BOND!!!!!! Clifford is very stubborn! How is Bugs doing, aside from getting picked on?

[Deleted User]

thanks. I feel energized. These rab’s aren’t gonna get me down… it is bonding time. now.

Bugs? Oh, little bugs… what can I say? He’s dealing with it all. I mean, imagine you are the smallest in a family where everybody has so many problems.. and all you really wanna do is be a normal rabbit.– he never reciprocates anything, just hops away softly. The others aren’t rough with him ever either, but he gets caught up in their mess.  He wants to be with them, I have given him the choice.

[mrmac]

Poor little Bugs, just wants to be loved! At least there is one easy one in the group!

[Deleted User]

Who’s easy in your trio?

[mrmac]

Dexter. He seemed so weird to us when we first got him, he was and is very social (although now he prefers having the other buns). I think he would get along with whoever you put him with. He wanted to be liked and wanted to be with them.

[Deleted User]

That’s great for if you ever wanted a quartett in the distant future. It helps to have one easy bun.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Are you ever doing an incredible job Petzy!!! WOW I love all the pictures of the setups and bonding! Professional Bonder should be added to your resume!!!

And O*M*G
Clifford=Chuck Seriously they look soooo similar!!

[mrmac]

My plan (I dont know if it is in the hubbys plan but oh well) is to have quite a few someday, a variety of breeds, big and small. I would love to have a bunny room, full of toys and diggy boxes and things to climb-a bunny utopia! I still want dogs too, our pet deposit is ridiculous and we felt it wouldnt be fair, since we want bigger dogs, to have them stuck in a teeny apartment with no where to run or play. Do you ever plan on adding more?!   

[Deleted User]

KK, I thought of Chuck when I first met Clifford. What a feisty little thing he is — Chuck, too?
Mac: well, if your current field of poo bullets hasn’t put a damper on this dream then I’d say you have it in you….

[mrmac]

It just gets old fast, sweeping up poo…

[Deleted User]

btw, KK: remember how it was assumed that, and I quote, “Priscilla is most likely to sit still for humping” ? Well, her name changed to Deirdra and with it maybe she changed… she would not, I repeat, would not, has not nor ever will sit still for that!

https://www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a…fault.aspx

[Deleted User]

As sad as it is to report, having seen Clifford today again during another quartett session I hereby officially retract every bad thing I ever said about Lint. Lint was not as bad as this. Clifford is deliberately chasing Valmore to take him on. He wants to have it out with Valmore. Valmore tries to avoid a fight but once Clifford bothers him enough…. I stop them, but the intentions are clear. So the quartett remains hung up on Clifford not moving on from his grudge against Valmore.

Edit: my resume is starting to look pretty bad right about now. ..!!!

[mrmac]

I hate to mention it, but is there a way to scare (that sounds terrible) Valmore and Clifford into being near eachother, or does a fight still break out?

[Deleted User]

I remember thinking the blow dryer would scare them together… LOL! Clifford loves the blow drier, as well as the vacuum cleaner. Garden hose noise near them works, but it doesn’t make them go near each other. Every time Clifford has tried to chase V I immediately put them into a litter box or whatever on my lap beside one another petting them. This is always very forced and their heads can’t be beside one another. If for some stress reason they ever find themselves near, Clifford usually tries to take advantage of this opportunity and seeks a fight. I will hold another session today in a few hours and keep “chipping away” at them. They will eat treats together, maybe I will single these two out, V & C, just for treat-eating, but Clifford isn’t stupid…. he will eat I guess and then go for a fight!

[Deleted User]

I think I need to spend more time wearing Clifford out, one-on-one V&C. Wear them down.

[mrmac]

With mine, I used a plastic grocery bags and cornered them with the bags, it scared the crap out of them one always jumped on top of the others. Then hid the bags behind me and did pets, then pulled it out again, and repeated, ended with pets and treats. Hpefully the next session goes ok.

[Deleted User]

What exactly did you do with the bags? I’d like to try it.

[mrmac]

I just shook it! I shook it in front of them, and kind of forced them into a corner with no where to run. Shook it on top of them in their faces, all around them. I sometimes would mutual pet while shaking bag with other hand.

[Deleted User]

Aha. Shake a plastic bag. I will add it to the tricks up my sleeve.

I just bunny-dated Valmore and Deirdra. (Jerseygirl, there was some truth in what you wrote, not that I don’t want C&V to bond, but bonding V to mine if all else fails has flashed across my mind. I took a chance with this date because my Deirdra is the newest bunny in my trio and I don’t want her to go through hostility with Lint again. I put V and Deirdra into the bathtub. Very interesting! No fighting at all. Just sitting… siitting quietly with perky eyes. After a few minutes, though, V came up to Deirdra and opened his jaws to just bite into her flank, just like that! I can read this bunny now so it didn’t come to this but what way to introduce yourself to a lady! Maybe Clifford and Valmore deserve one another.

[mrmac]

They just have a little mean streak in them! What is different abour Roger vs Clifford?

[Deleted User]

Roger and Clifford are actually much alike, like to hump, like to be in charge. However, Roger has been with Bugs and has confidence toward other rabbits. Clifford has not built any confidence and so he is at a disadvantage, wanting to be top bunny but easily frightened and fear makes him fight. This is why Roger’s friendship with Clifford is growing gradually with a tiff now and then. (Valmore on the other hand is actually not a dominant rabbit, maybe because of his youth and very early neuter… he does bite but this alone does not mean he’s a tyrant.)

[mrmac]

Clifford and Valmore dont know how to act around other rabbits…..I think when doing mine Dexter being younger than Davey and Delilah made them want to have less to do with him.

[Deleted User]

so… I got bit during tonight’s session! I was wearing a glove but Cliffy tried to bite Valmore and when I put my hand in between, Cliffy’s teeth went right through my glove and into my hand…the session ended on a bad note for me…

[mrmac]

Aww that sucks Hope your hand feels better!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

KK, I thought of Chuck when I first met Clifford. What a feisty little thing he is — Chuck, too?

….if by feisty you mean ‘humpy humpy humpy’ then YES he is like Clifford hehehe Chuck LOVES to hump-blankies, his lion, towels, stuffed toys and Noot-(Noot hides behind Chuck to avoid the unwanted amorous intentions)

[jerseygirl]

Know any Bunny Whisperers?….I’m actually thinking that maybe trying to slow it all down might benefit these two….BUT who am I to know Lol !
It’s just you’ve mentioned that Valmore acts scared often and Clifford also, leading to the aggression.   So 2 scared buns on top of being normal flighty prey animals – maybe this is too much too fast? (Though I bet it doesn’t feel fast to you!). Could you go back to the beginning with these to and just house them side by side? Or would that impact too much on your own trio? 

Just some thoughts

[Deleted User]

Jersey, yes, I see your point.

I cannot house them side-by -side, though, strangely Valmore and Clifford act less aggressive without bars between them. Clifford is terrible toward V when caged, he turns into a type of rabbit version of The Green Hulk…

Did I ever share any of the good news to tell? The Clifford-trio is sharing a litter box without problems and so is the Valmore-trio, the litter box isn’t even big. In both trios I have no poo wars or scuffles, even though Roger and Clifford both hump Bugs, or try to with each other.

The other good news is my own trio: after Deirdra dated Valmore yesterday, Lint soon found out about it. I kept my eye on them, and Lint seemed to quickly forgive her for showing up with the scent of another! He was p/o’d at first, but he was later seen grooming her and snuggling!

Also, on a side note, Valmore is getting tame with being handled. He is crated alone at night and I think this has helped him consider humans as an option for companionship (He’d never been alone before, lived with his three sisters until he bonded into a trio with R&B).

i think, I will keep up the quartett meetings, so not to undo any of Valmore’s bonds. Clifford has to keep living with R&B because his bond suffers greatly when separated, V’s doesn’t. Again, it has really only been one month I’ve been doing this…. the fear in them is less, it has been replaced by sneaky aggression. Maybe it’s a phase they have to go through… I don’t want to quit.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I am so not the expert on bonding-All my bonds but one have been EASY and instant *Ducks from objects being thrown at head*

But I honestly found, in finishing Rupert and Kahlua bond, Rupert was like that-this sort of sneak aggression, just sitting there minding his own business thinking of cookies, and Kahlua tries to come up or go by, and he ‘snake faces’ a chomp in her direction. (Her speed and long fur saved her from any scritches though).

Sooo what I did in the end, once I was certain there would be no major fighting (though how certain can we ever be I guess). I just gave the two run of the whole house for the day. That way they had enough room for an escape, to avoid, and to run. By bedtime, they were snuggled.

It worked for me but I don’t know if your there yet (not to let them have the house but to have a ton of room for a long period). Maybe a car ride with all four in the backseat of a car followed by a time in a large area with enough room to avoid or run? (Like I said-sooo not the expert!)

[RachelB]

Any chance that you can rope someone new (that you trust with the bunnies) to run the bond for the day. I *think* that I read someone’s story on here who was having lots of trouble bonding their bunnies and they had much better luck when a new “mean” boss came in and wouldnt tolerate any of their funny-buisness. Maybe if you were able to bring in a new mean dictator they would behave themselves??

[Deleted User]

I did this sort of thing with my trio bond when Lint was grudging against Deirdra. It did work.

Clifford and Valmore here will incur injuries if I let them run like that but I am giving the large part of my patio deck to them and I will use the garden hose stress again. After Jersey mentioned the fear that I had noticed and posted about earlier in the bonding, I realized this now might be the time for stress bonding again. They can handle it, i didn’t get that fear vibe yesterday at all. Everybunny has been pretty comfortable during the most recent sessions. What I do is hit the deck boards near Valmore and Clifford when they are about to get into a fight, I hit the floor of the deck with a quick jet of water from the garden hose. It breaks it up faster than any other method I have tried. I am still putting my money on this so-callled “Wear Them Down” method recommended for buns that really aren’t the perfect match… buns that won’t move on past the aggressive phase in a tough bond.

[Deleted User]

Rachel: What an idea. — A mean dictator: I think I might know someone…. 

[mrmac]

When Delilah was having those aggressive issues during bonding we did the mean dictator thing too. You do something bad you get a loud yell, your head pushed to the ground and a little fake human bunny nip, then forced together for mutual petting.

[Deleted User]

My problem is that it’s Clifford who needs correction, he is the one with the serious grudge. But then, when he’s keeping himself in line, Valmore takes his chances and tries to bite him just to see if he can do it now safely! I can’t let them ‘run it out’ because if they get into a fight, happened once, they latch onto each other. It’s too risky.
I am a sissy, I think, for letting up on the stress bonding. It’s the only way.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

There are other ways to stress besides car rides too! Sitting on top of the dryer, or running the vaccum cleaner-maybe playing a tape of your dogs barking (That would keep me scared LOL j/k they were cute!!!)-or even cooking if it bothers them-anything that stresses them can help!

[mrmac]

Holding one down and letting the other sniff then switch?

[Deleted User]

Dryer: check
real dogs barking: check
car ride: check
cooking: no go: no rabbits allowed near my kitchen…

I will try the plastic bag scare today.

Holding one down annd let the other one bite me? is this what you mean mac??! j/k…

[mrmac]

No! I just didnt know if they would still be aggressive with the other one if you were right there? Do they differentiate between you and the other bun?

[Deleted User]

Well, my videos would really help to illustrate, hopefully by the end of next week I’ll be able to upload.
I have to be right there with them. They know, I won’t let them have a fight. I will grab them in time or divert their head away or whatever it takes.
I have tried large space and small space with similar results, but I had stopped the stressing with the water from the hose. I had gotten to a truce with that. I must return to this now. It is sunny and dry and warm today. I will set up the hose for a session today. These rabbits are so good with R&B now, if they were able to stop fighting with Roger, I still hope they can resolve it with each other.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Kokaneeandkahlua on 08/28/2009 07:39 AM
I am so not the expert on bonding-All my bonds but one have been EASY and instant *Ducks from objects being thrown at head*

 

I was going to ask Admin to boot you off my thread . But I will let you live…     for now!!

[Deleted User]

i want to get 2 rabbit muzzles before I continue the bonding sessions… miniature hockey goalie gear maybe?
Maybe this is a sign that it’s not working out. “If you are looking online for bunny muzzles, stop all bonding now”!! ??

[mrmac]

I know what you mean but you hate to give up…

[Deleted User]

i decided to give today a break.

[RachelB]

YOU CAN DO IT…. you can do it…. you can do it!!!!!!!!

[jerseygirl]

I hope you didn’t think I was suggesting you should stop. I guess I was trying to tap onto what these two might be feeling and also I’m a wimp who would have trouble continuing with this feistiness! It is true to that rabbits can pass the difficulty all sudden like. They get past whatever the issue is and then everything it sweet.

Also, to further negate my suggestion of calming things down/going back to slow & steady…I had actually thought when you first mentioned the “wear them down method” that this was a method that has to be seen all the way through. I can edit: I meant “Can’t” imagine rabbits would forgive and forget if you changed from this method to a milder one. Do you get what I mean?

So that’s me – going round in circles! lol. Honestly, what we can add is only as remote observers – we’re not seeing all the body language and subtleties that you are.

Do you know, as far as bonding goes, 1 month is short really. Though it mustn’t feel this way to you. You have actually already acheived 2 trio combos in this timeframe which is fantastic. You’re on the home run. C’mon Clifford and Valmore!

[Deleted User]

I have been going in circles very much, that seems to be part of bonding… you try one thing, then another, then back a step and so on.
I appreciate the input very much because it helps to discuss, get ideas flowing… I haven’t done any sessions in a couple of days, I was tired of seeing the same behavior repeated over and over.
I have beenn spending time with my own rabbits, imagine that! I did some upgrades on their condo, fiddled with their water supply (that’s another story) and also I handled Valmore lots. In the meantime again, the Clifford trio is really cementing.
Tomorrow i need to do a quartett session, and I will not go easy.
My other thought is to send them home in pairs for a long break from bonding, Roger/Valmore and Clifford/Bugs — these two pairs are very loving. However, this would mean that in the future i would have to rebond Clifford and Roger which was a hard bond… and it would break up Roger and Bugs, which I find wrong…. or I’m thinking of sending home the Clifford trio and keeping Valmore for a month to then just have my friend send Clifford to me again to work on these two one more time….

[jerseygirl]

I just read your reply in dlscanne’s thread. There’s another option to consider…send them all home and try Clifford & Valmore bonding back at their home. Yes, it’s less neutral but it could have a calming effect on them both perhaps. Maybe to many options to consider – lol. I’m glad you took time out and spent it with your guys. Sometimes it’s good to step back and let the solutions come. My aunty is fond of the philosophy “don’t try to find the solution to a problem to gain a sense of peace.  Be peaceful and then the solution will come to you”. Something to that effect.

[Deleted User]

Ii like your aunty for this piece of advice. I will remember it.
–sending them home to fight..ooops, I mean to BOND there… hmmm…. will discuss it with her but I have a feeling this bond is too hard. If I send them home then not as a quartett.

[Deleted User]

I turned up the stress. I used the kiddy pool that had helped me in the past during bonding, this method is along the same lines of the bathtub, only outdoors and with more running space and less slippery. It was a hot dry sunny day, which is necessary for this.
I removed the drain stopper from the pool and put Clifford and Valmore in and covered with a large grid. The idea is that it is totally neutral and scary, and any fights can be stopped with squirts of water (hose nozzle or bottle). Valmore wanted to attack but he got squirted and so he pouted. Clifford was scared. I added Roger to calm them down, someone friendly, who will give grooms. Roger did that. I even put Bugs in and then dropped treats through the grid which everybun ate greedily except Valmore who was frozen still at the side, watching. –At least this session didn’t have to be called off half-way through like so many before. I feel it’s worthwhile enough to repeat.

[mrmac]

Sounds like it went well, even though Valmore was frozen. Definitely better than having to stop half way through!

[Deleted User]

Today I went a size smaller. I used the bottom of a water table measuring 38″L by 26″W by 11″H. I put the quartett in, covered with grid. The Clifford trio devoured the treats that were there, but Valmore soon charged at Clifford but I stopped him in his tracks with a good squirt of water, then he froze again. (This wear-them-down method is wearing me out…) They spent 25 minutes like this. Ended uneventful.
Obviously, Valmore has understood that I will not allow his attacks. Cllifford feels safe with R&B and me there too. Wiithout me and the squirts of water present Valmore would surely go after Clifford. Then Cllifford would reciprocate and the grudge would grow. — I wonder if I left the quartett in the dry water table for a long time, would it help? How long have people let their rabbits sit in a dry bathtub for bonding?

[mrmac]

With mine, I found that the bathtub actually agitated them more than other places, and it turned to nipping faster. While they would be out on the patio though, I would take my book or something, along with my squirt bottle and some treats and sit out there for hours with them.

[Deleted User]

Not so here! In a big space, like the patio, Valmore and Cllifford sooner or later catch up with each other, in a sneaky way, too, no way could I take my eyes off of them for reading… I don’t like the big space for this bonding very much but I keep trying to see if I can make progress to get to that point that you describe. The real bathtub made V&C freeze or fight and stress majorly. The water table is a better place for these two, they get into normal routines like eating, grooming etc. However, I never did do a quuartett session in the bathtub. Roger would just jump out, he’s a super-jumper and then everybun would follow.

[mrmac]

Roger-“come on everybun, LETS GO!” Valmore seems like he knows what he’s doing wrong, and he knows he will get in trouble for it. Is Valmore the ‘outsider’ in the quartet? The water table seems like it is keeping all of them somewhat calm.

[Deleted User]

In place of my own pictures that I cannot show right now, here is a similar thing like I’m using. It’s for preschool a sensory sand/water table. It has a drain and mine has higher sides than this one. I am only using the tub part and then cover with a large grid.

Valmore is still close to Roger, he tolerates Bugs, not really an outsider which is good. Honestly I find the quartett a hard configuration!

[mrmac]

Thats a nifty little tub! When they are in it are they avoiding eachother completely? I say as long as the fightin can be stopped in this I would continue with the tub for now.

[Deleted User]

Not avoiding each other completely, Clifford ignoring V and V gradually trying to get closer to Clifford to take a nip at him. If he can’t get Clifford, he will sometimes nip at Bugs instead. With Bugs there is no fighting, he just takes off.
I held another session. I moved the ‘nifty’ tub indoors, set it on top of my bathtub and left it open, hoping the height would keep them from jumping out. I left two litter boxes with hay for them as well as fresh grass. It was a half hour session and tense the whole way through. First it was clear they were in neutral environment, they were wide-eyed and bobbing their heads to see what’s around. Roger humped Valmore to let him know that he’s boss in this new place just the same. Clifford humped Bugs for the same reason. Then Clifford and Roger proceded to eat the grass, Bugs groomed himself. Valmore sat frozen until almost the end when he tried to jump into Clifford’s litterbox which would have led to a fight. I didn’t use water, just wore gloves and pushed Valmore’s head down.

[mrmac]

Sounds somewhat positive.

[Deleted User]

I brought the tub into my bedroom with only Valmore and Clifford and without litterboxes. i read up a bit today about different bonding problems and with two already hostile buns it is not recommended to have litterboxes until much later. I mounted the tub in its stand to make it high. I didn’t cover it. There they were, V and C in a strange place once more. There was lots of hay and grass for them in the tub, and after about a half hour when V realized I wasn’t going to let him go after C, he started to munch and then he went to lie down! Clifford just sat in the corner with his back toward Valmore but after V had sprawled out he felt safe to do the same. I petted them lots. I ended after 1 hour on a good note, i think.

[mrmac]

That sounds good! Lets just hope they think it is good tomorrow too, and the next day, and the next day and so on!

[Deleted User]

early this morning I held another session like last night. The sand table open on its stand in my bedroom, Valmore and Clifford with only loose hay and grass. I sat with them for 45 minutes. V is curious about C but C sits there frozen wiith his back toward him. What does it mean when a bun sits with his back toward another rabbit? I haven’t let V get right nose to nose with C, they are still sure to want to nip at each other.

[mrmac]

Hes giving Valmore the bunny butt! This is what language of lagomorphs has to say about it, http://language.rabbitspeak.com/rabbittalk.html   At least there was no aggression, or attempts.

[Deleted User]

oh, great site. i will have to read it all!

Valmore during another session over lunch did try to attack Clifford. It was because I had moved Clifford into Valmore’s corner and vice versa.
I spoke with their owner and i will give it the rest of the week to see if there is any let-up of the aggression. If the hostilities persist, they will have to go home in pairs (R&V, B&C), and we will give it a few months cooling off. For the rest of the week, during daylight hours, I will have them on the patio deck, not the corner, the large area. Maybe the sessions in close proximity have changed the dynamics. I already put them out and when C and V ran into one another they simply veered off to avoid a fight! Maybe I am at that point now, where they can run it off?! I am not sure but this is the plan.

[mrmac]

Sounds like a plan to me! I think it is getting to the point where they and you need a break to settle back into a regular routine, and try again later. Were they in pairs when you got them or is the R&V and B&C a new pairing too? Maybe (hopefully) they are at that point where it is too much effort to fight. Keeping my fingers crossed for you and all bunnies involved!

[Deleted User]

That’s the thing. Only Bugs and Roger were a pair before but this solution would break them up. Bugs however always hangs out with Clifford now if he gets his way, and Valmore chooses Roger.

Thank you. Do I need a break from them? Hmm, I kind of wanna keep valmore and clifford … but i remember I already have 3 beautiful rabbits of my own waiting for me…

[mrmac]

I went and looked back at clips and pictures from when you started in July, and there has been alot of progress among all of them. It is so close its just that last little leg of it which is what makes it so hard to take a break, risking losing some of what you gained. Its really up to you an what you feel is best for you, your trio, and the quartet.

[Deleted User]

here is the truth: my trio has benefitted from the patio being booked. They have moved their own bond from good to excellent! MarkBun gave some good advice to me when he suggested leaving them in that condo for a long time. They only get the patio on the days I take off from bonding the new quartett. I am not saying Lint never makes Deirdra jump wiith one of his little grunts and nips but they have a communication going on. There is no fear, no stress, they have a society now.
well, all i need from V and C now is a little sign, such as coexisting in a very big space… and I will continue!
By the way, thanks for bothering following all this, it helps a great deal.

[mrmac]

At least your trio is benefiting too! Hopefully they will show some sort of sign! I love following it! After my trio was done I was kind of sad, I liked doing the bonding, even at its hard times. The reward of seeing them together in the end is all worth it!

[Deleted User]

Posted By mrmac on 09/02/2009 12:45 PM
After my trio was done I was kind of sad, I liked doing the bonding, even at its hard times. The reward of seeing them together in the end is all worth it!

You’re sick, and you have a disease. See a doctor now. j/k!

[mrmac]

Haha I know right!

[Deleted User]

Right now, the quartett is moving about. this is progress from when they used to split into pairs or Clifford giving bunny butt in the corner! Valmore bullies Clifford now, but Clifford doesn’t reciprocate. He just takes off. I hope he has resolved that he’s just too little and shouldn’t mess wiith the big boys (Roger and Valmore). holding my breath.
i am so behind in my work… this bonding has me busy!

[mrmac]

(((Fingers crossed!!!!!))) Hopefully this is a turning point!

[Deleted User]

I think I’m in business. The quartett is doing well now in the large space. They’re at that point where Valmore allows Clifford only at a certain distance and anything closer he will chase him off. This is so much better than two buns latching onto one another. Clifford is not as flighty, he seems to understand the distance requirement. I even got them to siit together with a pile of fresh grass for a while before V decided C was sitting too close.
The good thing is that at their home they will have an area about the size of my deck and it will be neutral. If I don’t mess it up I might be able to give them a good start, and send them home to cement.

[mrmac]

That sounds good!!!!!!! Maybe that trip in the ‘nifty bin’ to your room helped!

[jerseygirl]

Fingers crossed also! I agree, continue with that nifty bin. It’s really good any developments made there are transferring out onto the deck too. I remember going from small neutral area to larger one I had some set backs. The small space and learning a level of trust may be helping these two Stubbuns.

[Deleted User]

I think, it was the repeated exposure in a totally controlled setup. I mean by that, that the sand table was the first place I tried small enough and accesible enough for me to act really fast and prevent the vicious cycle of attack and defense.

[Deleted User]

Having been separate overnight was actually bad for the quartett, but I don’t have a large enough indoor pen for the nightime and I do not trust them in a cage together. At sunrise, I let them ‘loose’ on the entire patio, including wrap-around corner. They had to sort out who was there… got into a little scuffle over some carrots but I feel I do not have to watch them continuously at this point. I remember this phase from my own trio.

I am not sure if I want to do more bin sessions because I do not want to upset what is now. I just want them together and figure it out. There is no risk of injury as I perceive it. Everyone is on the move, grooming themselves, eating, doing their routines. Clifford makes sure he keeps a distance to Valmore, sometimes he binkies over him if he got too close. They will have until dusk to be together and then I will put the Clifford trio in a cage overnight, and Valmore by himself. I have to do it this way, to preserve the bond between Roger and Cllifford, these two have got to be together 24/7.

I’m trying to mark down some pointers for when I do send them home, things for my friend’s set-up to remember. I think they should have two litter boxes (right now they have three), two food bowls and no hidey houses for the first while. These things could get V and C into an argument.

I’m guessing their cementing phase will take many months. I just really want them to go home before the snow falls so my friend can use the large outdoor run she has for them as well.

 

[mrmac]

I agree, I think as long as there is no fighting, they are moving forward and the sand table isnt really necessary.

[Deleted User]

The quartett stayed together yesterday all the way until midnight. Later in the day I had company and we were using the patio, and I had to confine the four rabbits in the small corner, about 4′ by 8′. No fights there, but definitely more stressful for Clifford who wants to keep his distance to V. Overnight I separated Valmore out again which I didn’t want to because they had really configured themselves iinto a calm herd.
They were separate until six this morning and the transition to rejoin Valmore into the Clifford trio was smooth. Between V and C there is curiosity, tolerance but also the occasional nip and fur-pluck. Valmore has patched things up with Bugs, I should mention, with whom he did have a falling out for a while, mostly, I believe, because he associates Bugs with Clifford. — In the big space, the 4 are having fun, and enjoying themselves.
I noticed however that letting Clifford bond strongly with Roger has really helped Clifford not to get stressed out in the quartett and it has also stopped Roger from teaming up with Valmore against Clifford. Sometimes when Valmore makes a dominant stance toward Clifford, Roger has chased Valmore off. Valmore is very sensitive to this correction, he would never challenge Roger — Valmore worships Roger.
I am pondering the question about a night time set-up. I could try making a pen in my bedroom to give it a chance.

[mrmac]

That is good that valmore looks up to Roger, and allows Roger to act as mediator among them. I think the nighttime pen would be a good thing especially if they are all getting along for extended periods of time.

[RachelB]

Sounds like they are finally over that last hump. Keeping them together as much as possible now should help them cement their bond. Id go for the overnight stay (if you can set something up in your bedroom). Just be ready for little to no sleep. I dont think I slept at all for the first 2 nights I had my guys together. Any noise they made I had to turn over and check on them (I slept onthe floor about 2 ft from their cage in the kitchen). If you have the time Id say to definitly go for it!!!!

My boys fought over their food dish at first. So I just spread the pellets in a big circle on the floor of one area of the cage. This way noone could claim ownership to them all. I didnt introduce a box until they were togeteher for 2 weeks (their cage looked so baren I felt like a bad bunny momma!!). There was a bit of extra chasing around and through the box at first but I forced them to sit in the box together with lots of pets, and that seemed to help. Now they lounge in it snuggled together all the time.

I am so happy for you that the bunnies seem to be onto the next step. Keep us updated!!!! Good luck with the 1st overnight

[Deleted User]

Rachel, thank you.  I just moved them into a pen I built in my bedroom, right beside my bed. I was thinking I wanted to take advantage of the better vibes between them, also it’s a long weekend so it’s perfect timing for sleepless nights. I wonder if my pen is barren enough, I need it empty on one hand to avoid the claiming of things, on the other hand I have found that items seem to encourage interaction and keep these guys from freezing up in corners. The pen has a metal tray bottom and some tiles, so it’s very sterile and neutral.  That’s a good idea with the pellets just spread out like you did. I do have aggression between V and C over food and litter boxes. I am definitely going to make them sit together in a litter box; wow, I can do that now — a week ago it was impossible without serious armory (broom, leather gloves, garden hose ) on hand!  I still have a spray bottle close by and there is a wooden board along the wall which I can bang on to get their attention… (not for use at night )

 

 

[RachelB]

Hahaha!! Sounds like you are ready for a *hopefully* peaceful night. {{{{sending good vibes your way}}}}}

I did a lot of happy petting in the litterbox and any other corner whenever the two seemed to be getting stressed out with one another. The rough(ish) petting always seemed to calm my two down. Also since I always made them sit side by side with their heads toching (so I could pet both with one hand) now whenever I pet one of them the other one comes running and powerslides into the other to get their head pets in. Hahaha… its funny to watch.

I would keep it as sparce as you can to avoid any ownership issues. I actually had to remove the litterbox a few times during my guys bonding because the mounting/chasing was starting to begin in the box. So Id remove it for 30 min, give them time to settle down, put the box back in, and then force them to sit in it for pets for 5 min or so. After doing this 2-3 times they began to only be peaceful to one another in the box.

Since you’ve found that items help them interact maybe try adding things for short periods of time. (Add it and let them play for 30 min, then remove it and add something different).

Oh and its funny you mention the spray bottle…. my buns both LOVE being sprayed with it?? Weird buns. hahaha

Good luck

[Deleted User]

???Love getting sprayed?? I hope mine never do, what would I then use??? The way I spray Valmore, with the steady single squirt right on the forehead… it makes him grunt angrily at me.
I have never thought of removing the litterbox for just a short period of time, I always included it or didn’t… this is a good idea to use the box as sort of a reward for being peaceful… you know, I feel I’m at the beginning of bonding them now, after all that. V and C were on such a bad track with one another, all the traditional tricks didn’t take. Plus, they weren”t bonded to ME, since they are my friend’s rabbits!!! I am sure that this worked against me too as I was not able to calm V in the beginning at all, he got so stressed out. Stress seemed to make him more nippy toward C… it was a vicious circle in that sense.
Hopefully I will have progress over the weekend!

[mrmac]

Its the “Oh my! What do it do?!” anxiety, and his only release seems to be attack or biting! The sprayer didnt work very well with my trio, Davey and Delilahs fur is too thick and the only way to get their attention would be to spray them in the face and aim for the eye, which sounds terrible, but then they’d just be soaked. Kepping the fingers crossed!!!!!

[RachelB]

jar with pennies and crinkling foil…. those were my two weapons to distract the boys.

[Deleted User]

I’ll stick with the spray bottle as it is almost silent. (bf might get upset if I start shaking a jar of pennies in the middle of the night, you think??)

[mrmac]

Yeah I’d say the pennies wouldnt go over so well in the dead silence of night! That would not be a boyfriend pleaser!!!

[jerseygirl]

It’s funny how quickly things can turn. Petzy, I know you mentioned getting them bonded then sending them home to finish. Are you still going to do that? I think I’d be nice for you to have them a few days longer to enjoy seeing them bonded. A nice reward!

[Deleted User]

Oh boy, that first night in the pen did call for jar of pennies and everything else. There was no sleep. It seems as though Clifford and Valmore measure each other up from across whatever space they are in. They are not friendly with each other by choice but fortunately Roger (from here on in “The Bossbunny”) will not permit Valmore to bully Clifford! If Valmore chases Clifford out of the litterbox for example,and gets carried away, Roger (The Bossbunny!) starts chasing, nipiping and ‘cutting’ Valmore down to size! He is my this quartett’s saving grace. I would not pair Valmore with Clifford alone but with Roger present it is working. This is so ironic because Roger was the reason my friend asked me to do the bonding at my place. We both figured he was a hard-to-bond bunny. The pen I had set up is a bit too small for them to be comfortable with each other all the time so tonight, after they spent all day in the patio corner, I am going to pair Valmore with Bugs and Roger with Clifford in cages. Bugs has started grooming Valmore on occasions and I want this bond to set so to diversify Valmore’s interests in other bunnies (he’s so stuck on Roger), and Clifford with Roger is always good for Clifford because Roger is his protector now. I don’t remember how many set-ups I have built, or how many circles I have completed with these four but I know I’m on the home stretch.
Jersey, I will have them here until my friend’s new pen is up along with the outdoor run. I really feel the outdoor run on grass will help this bonding because I cannot spare litterboxes in my set-ups, it is simply too messy with 4. It is the litterboxes, no matter how many, that create the majority of the hostilities. I am enjoying the fact that they can be together without referee!

[mrmac]

I hope they resolve their issues peacufully, and everything move forward. It stinks that things didnt work as well overnight as planned but as least they are at the point of learning to be together. What gappened with the nightime issues?

[Deleted User]

Valmore’s ears never folded back, they pricked and pricked toward Clifford and Valmore’s whole body was kind of hunched stealthfully as he eyed Clifford… The longer they were in the pen the more he made it his, so this is why I want to focus more on the patio corner again. There he is more open to the idea of sharing/coexisting. I think the pen was too small for Valmore to put up with Cliffy at this point. I just didn’t want to risk the two getting in a fight if I fell asleep. Things were good this morning at sunrise when I put them back together in the patio, no scuffles at all.
You know, in all the bondings I have done I have never done one indoors only.

[mrmac]

I couldnt imagine doing three, let alone 4 completely indoors! I hope the ‘no scuffles’ continues!!!

[Deleted User]

It is windy today and this seems to make them focused on staying in the comfy spots.
I now have the poo wars… and it is a ***** to clean up since the droppings hide in between my deck boards!

[Deleted User]

Today I couldn’t believe my eyes when I watched as Valmore and Clifford passed by each other closely without the usual freak-out. It was a small sign of progress but still quite unbelievable considering the history these two have. This has given me new confidence that my current routine is working even though I am splitting them up overnight.

[RachelB]

Sounds like things are progressing nicely. Sorry to hear that the overnight didnt work out for you. I dont think I slept more than 5 min at a time when I put my two guys together (those first two nights were really rough…. coffee is your friend!!) Give them a little more time to work through issues and gain trust in one another and then give it another shot!

I found the litterbox to be a HUGE issue with my two guys at first. It may help to combine a bunch of their mess from other boxes into one bigger one, add some fresh litter to the top. And then force them all to sit in it (as pairs if you cant manage all together) with pets. Doing this over and over for a few days might help them to see the litterbox as “theirs” and not as something that they can claim. Its easier to have it be “theirs” already by using some of their soiled litter. That way it smells like all of them already.

[Deleted User]

Valmore is a pretty big bully when it comes to litterboxes, he woud even bump Clifford out of Clifford’s box, even thogh there were two other boxes that Valmore was already using (and sharing with Roger and Bugs). I think, Valmore wants to make sure at this point to be above Clifford in the pecking order… but making them sit together in one box I have done and keep doing. I didn’t put any of Clifford’s droppings into V’s box but it’s a good idea now. I have been switching boxes between them at night but I could see that it was making V show agression toward Bugs he is with at nights.

[mrmac]

I think since you are seeing progress with them being separated at night, then I would continue that for a while. With Valmore and Clifford it seems that their biggest hang up is time, slower than baby steps. I just wish they, maybe just Valmore, wouldnt be so pushy!

[Deleted User]

Today I dared. I dared house all four rabbits in a 40″ by 28″ by 28″ crate. The plastic kind. It’s a small place but that’s the point. This way I was able to omit any litterboxes. I covered the entire bottom of the crate with litter material. They are in there now eating. Roger is my hero right now, he continues not to allow fighting in his herd. I wonder if Valmore and Clifford would have ever given it up if it weren’t for their bond to Roger respectively. My dream is to be able to send the 4 home in one carrier….

[mrmac]

They seem to be getting along much better! Roger needs a cape! Maybe thats the benefit of four, one is bound to end up as the mediator. They are making progress!

[Deleted User]

I wonder if all rabbit herds have a leader that must necessarily accept any new rabbits. Realistically, what are the chances of bonding each new rabbit to each rabbit successfully by the time you are getting into the multiples… maybe it is a matter of being accepted by the leader? Does anyone know anything about rabbit herd dynamics? Are they organized in strata?

[mrmac]

I think that must have to be true. Some rabbits who live together, only tolerate others but will peacfully coexist where others never leave the others side. I think risking offending or standing up to the head rabbit, increases the chance of an attack or exclusion from the group. So does that make the idea just to deal with it even f you dont like it?! So complex!

[Deleted User]

Something to research: rabbit social structures…

–The quartett has been in the ‘litterbox-free’ crate for over an hour and now they went to sleep!!!!

[RachelB]

Yippie!!!!! Sounds like they are really starting to love/tolerate eachother. Its good that each bun in the pair has a friend… maybe they wont all end up loving one another but having a buddy to play with and then tolerating all the others is quite a success! Im sure with time they will love one another more and more!!

[mrmac]

I can just imagine them all sleeping together (finally)!!! How cute!

I found this site: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2305

Kind of interesting!

[Deleted User]

Oh, wow, thank you for finding this. Have to read it again… and again.
I cannot believe they’re still in that crate and no freezing, freaking or fighting !
I don’t want to knock on woood… this is the 3rd time I am thinking I can leave them together in close quarters… 3rd time’s a charm, isn’t it?
What should I do? Leave them in there… for how long??

[RachelB]

I’d leave them in there for as long as they will tolerate eachother. Once you see them start to get stressed out Id give them something to distract them (some nom-noms, treats, etc). If the distraction works and they can stay in there a bit longer go for it. If not remove and house them as you have been before. Give them an hour or so to cool off and then try and put them back in there together again. Hopefully soon they can stay together 100%.

[mrmac]

I had to read that article a few times too! I agree with leaving them for as long as they are doing well!

[Deleted User]

THE QUARTETT SPENT THE NIGHT IN THE SMALL SPACE CRATE!

I had let them out in the evening for exercise and Clifford quickly hopped away to get a good distance between himself and Valmore. I felt cruel for combining the 4 again for the night after their out time because Clifford felt uncomfortable being close to Valmore. V can be nippy, Clifford knows. Clifford pressed himself against the gate. So I added some things for hiding (shelf and a box). Then I wheeled the crate inside overnight and they stayed calm throughout, most likely because of the absence of any litterboxes, I suppose. In the morning they were sitting on opposite sides in the usual pairings: Roger and Valmore snuggled in an everlasting groom, and Bugs with Clifford comforting each other. I did sleep but except for Roger trying to dig out of the crate there were no loud noises suggesting any stress among them.

 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

WOOT!!! Success!!

[mrmac]

YAY!!!!! Who cares if they were on opposite sides! Thay were together all night! Finally! How were they with no litterboxes? Well obviously they didnt mind, but…

[RachelB]

Yippie!!! With more time together perhaps Val will be nicer. Once they figure out that they are “stuck” with one another they might stop feeling like they have to assert their dominance and just play nice!!

I’d try and keep them together in that small crate for at least 4-7 days (I didnt even let my guys out for their nightly run). Then slowly increase their “cage” space. Even after they are bonded and go to their new home I would advise her that they should start in a small space and then slowly increase.

As for the litterbox agression…. are they still agressive if the box is large enough for them all to fit in and not have to really interact? Like if you used a big underthe bed storage container– would they still fight over it? A new big box (with all their droppings mixed up in it) might help with some of that.

{{{Continued happy vibes}}}

[Deleted User]

Mac, the bottom of the plastic crate has shredded paper and hay all over so basically they are in one giant litter box.

Rachel, I am positive that if Valmore had his way, if they weren’t stuck, he would chase C out of the crate with a prick of his ear.  He has established himself as dominant over Clifford in spite of his youth (6 months). Clifford must necessarily become submissive to him for a bond to happen. After all their arguing and scuffles C accepted this now and will not nip, fight back, or claim anything; V just looks at C and it sends C running.

[mrmac]

Ahh! I’d say that eliminates the competition!

Poor Clifford…I bet they get more and more used to being together, and as Valmore gets older, their fight for dominance may lessen. Valmore can’t be on edge all the time, and Clifford can’t avoid him forever. I am so happy for you and them!

[Deleted User]

Thank you. I am relieved more than anything.

I sometimes see Clifford now carefully trying to sniff Valmore from behind, or the side but ever so tentatively. Valmore is pretty relaxed and very pleased with himself. But I may send them home one of the weekends coming up. I do want them confined together for this week at least, like Rachel suggested.

[mrmac]

I think that is a good idea, you dont want to send them home and then have things turn.

I feel relieved for you too! What a process!

[Deleted User]

Valmore and Clifford were just eating noms together from the same bowl for the first time! They’re on their way!

I can’t wait til I get my new camera base and can add in my pictures…. I’m afraid you might think I’m making this up….

[mrmac]

There will be so many pictures! You’ll have to narrate them…

[jerseygirl]

Great! Eating together without issue is a great sign. If it doesn’t cause problems, I would think a hidey spot in their permanent home might be an idea. Like Rucy had to get away from Jack when she needed to. hehe! This is reminding me of when I was growing up. My siblings and I would line the cereal boxes up down the middle of the breakfast table to screen each other out. I don’t think we were morning people!

[mrmac]

With my trio, I wanted them to have a hidey spot like jersey said, but I made sure I made one big enough for them all to fit and and all to be comfortable in, being around the others. Haha jersey! Me and my brother used to do that too!

[Deleted User]

For now, Valmore would not share any hidey thing with Clifford no matter how big, so I put a little wooden stool in the crate that only Clifford or Bugs will fit underneath of. Just in case Clifford wants to make himself unavailable. They use it mostly to sit on top of though.
Definitely, in their permanent home, we will set something up.
I am observing Clifford closely for how relaxed he is, if he continues to be calm and not get flighty or panicky — it’s all good.

In my family I think I was the one my brother wanted to hide from…

[mrmac]

Are they still all together? I’m glad to hear they arent so flighty. Bugs and Roger are the easy, uncomplicated ones!

[Deleted User]

They have been together and staying that way. I think I got it jinxed the right way this time and don’t want to change anything. Clifford is not as avoidant of Valmore today. Valmore still doesn’t particularly like Clifford but he isn’t acting on it. They seem like a small herd today and doing all routines.
I am nervous about sending them home because their new place will be a challenge to their dynamics. The most important thing for their owner to do is not to separate them, I believe.

[mrmac]

I think that will be their biggest challenge. You can only get them so far. Since this is not their ‘home’, I just hope that the gains they have made dont fall to pieces once they get to “their” home. Maybe making a list of tips/tricks to try if they arent getting along or have a tiff is in order?

[Deleted User]

Let’s make a list at any rate. You help me — ‘kay ?

1) For the first month, make their area no bigger than 4′ by 6′
2) Have two large litterboxes
3) At least once a day set V and C into one litterbox together stroking them and making them stay
4) Don’t separate them
5) At feeding time: if V starts grunting at C, provide second bowl to keep everyone calm
6) no tunnels for the first while
7) more than one hide-out, and big enough, so if V takes one C can still snuggle in the other one with R&B.
8) Clifford needs extra TLC and encouragement, so extra treats for him!
9) Take photos…

[mrmac]

Sounds good to me! Do you have tips in case of a fight or scuffle? If they need separating what do do? Just a couple ideas…I think you have the majority covered! The photos are a must!

[Deleted User]

Their home is only a half hour drive away. If something so serious went wrong as to require separation, I might take V and C back for rebonding… and have the owner keep R & B in a cage for the duration. She has her own car unlike me so I might first suggest car rides; her husband is very helpful too, so she’d have an assistant for the rides.
–But the bonding has really taken off! I let the quartett out for a couple of hours of run time this morning and what a difference I am seeing. Clifford first of all is calm and Valmore does no longer chase him at all. Clifford is mixing in with them even in the large space.

[mrmac]

Thats always a relief that they’re unreachable! Yay Clifford! Hopefully his confidence continues to increase around the others, and Valmore and Clifford will end up being the best of buddies?!!

[Deleted User]

Today the test: they’d had run time for the first time really since I moved them into the crate and they were out for half the day. I left the crate open for them to access, I was hoping they would use it as litterbox. Valmore hopped in and out and I wondered if he was going to make that crate now all his. Just an hour ago, I got their salad ready and put one large bowl inside the open crate. They all came hopping in, I closed the gate; none nipped or chased, they all ate, with Clifford stealing some of the fruit pieces from Valmore’s mouth (!) and getting away with it. No scuffles, no problems. I call it a bond. ?!

[mrmac]

Tada!!! You did it once again! That’s amazing! I wonder what triggered C&V to just ‘put the past behind them’?! Who knows?! And who cares they are all getting along!

[Deleted User]

To recap I uploaded some of my bonding footage. It covers the past four weeks.

Here below, I wanted them to just sit in the small space in separate litterboxes, but Valmore wanted to attack Clifford. So the session didn’t bring any progress. (note: I am grabbing Valmore hard here, it might not be obvious in the video but he was all shark headed for Clifford)If you turn up your volume you can hear Val bleeting when I first put him in and he sees Clifford.

Then I tried the crate on wheels for stress bonding…

They even tried to fight in the bathtub, so I left a half inch of water in the tub to throw off their footing. They didn’t fight, but they still weren’t bonding.

I had them sit side-by-side in a small carrier bottom on my lap to transfer scent and get them to relax with one another, but tempers remained tense.

 

I tried sessions with all four in between Val&Cliff’s paired sessions, but this scenario invariably made Clifford hide in a corner, the outsider, scared.

I had to separate them, things were simply escalating. I was thinking of taking a break, or calling the whole thing off.

I made the daytime setup so Roger and Clifford would bond and stick. They are in the small silver cage at the far right. I kept Valmore separate for many days and focused on the ‘Clifford Trio’. I have Biugs here in the pen behind the cages, as the general bonding stress was getting him caught in the middle (i.e. Roger chased him, and scared him).

I tried re-introducing Valmore to the Clifford Trio but the hostility wouldn’t ease up.

Here from across a grate and inside the pet taxi, Valmore very angry.

Whenever Valmore and Clifford wre in the same space I ended up having to use major stress to break them up, I was a a point where touching noses between them was garantueed to be the opening for a fight. I used the spray bottle a lot.

The Valmore trio remained intact even though I kept Valmore housed alone, Val’s bond to Bugs suffered a little. However, with Valmore present Clifford would allways be supertense and only Roger seemed to keep the dam from breaking…

 

Valmore was having fun with ‘his trio’ and Clifford was alone at the sidelines…

 

I tried different set-up, different scenarios without success. It was either no interaction, or fighting. Here is one session in the evening, I had hoped for interaction since evening is their active time.. . but Clifford remained so nervous with valmore present that any rabbit coming near him would send him running and causing chaos.

I gave them the big space of the entire patio but when Valmore and Clifford ran into one another, it was confrontational as usual.

Valmore was usually the instigator.

I went for water stress bonding again… like I had done with my own rabbits, Lint and Deirdra.

Whenever Valmore wanted to fight I squirted water hard on the floor of the pool beside him. It stopped them, but then they just avoided each other. This setup is very stressful for the rabbits. It was my last resort.

I then downsized to a water table; same idea as above but smaller. *these methods are on the same page with the bathtub, only that they can’t jump out and I didn’t tie up my bathroom! I also found the bath tub a bit narrow.

I moved the watertable indoors and made the sessions last really long.

I thought I could move them in together, they had to be together to work this out. I made an enclosure in my bedroom. It was too early and I had to separate them.

 

I went back to housing them separately, and doing quartett sessions in the patio corner.

Even though, sad to see clifford scared of Valmore as in the video above, it is what helped the bond to happen in the end. I did no more paiired sessions, as Roger seemed to have picked up on Clifford’s status problem. Roger would get involved whenever Valmore tried to chase Clifford. Without Roger I would still be doing sandtable session! Maybe for months…

but with Roger I got this:

Valmore’s aggression towar Clifford became less. This here is nothing compared to how he used to be. This was already progress!

Valmore very happy, even with Clifford around!

Valmore wasn’t deliberately attacking Clifford any longer, I needed to make Clifford stop running away, so I moved them into a small crate for night times ….and it stuck!

(There is no litterbox in the crate, so I cheated a bit )

This is today. They have been tgether steady for about ten days, and are waiting to go home.

The End! (I will update when they go home… how that goes!)

 

Valmore is a hard-to-bond rabbit, and he deserves a little teasing…

As always with the bonding, it is important to keep a level head… right?!

[RachelB]

The videos really show how much progress the boys have made!!!! They all really look very happy together

All these multi-bunny bonds is making me go a bit crazy— Ive started looking at getting another bunny to make my guys a trio.

Congrats congrats congrats on their success!!!! The wouldnt have made it without your persistance!

[Deleted User]

Oh, thanks! It’s hard to see when you’re the one doing the bonding.
A trio is a nice thing. Just don’t get a Valmore-type of bunny!!!

edit: You can spot them by their … bully-looks!

[mrmac]

Those are great videos! Valmore and Clifford were nasty with eachother! Valmore has the best binkies! You really could see the progression of those two and the trio and quartett as a whole. The video when Valmore and Clifford met nose to nose seemed like a huge breakthrough! Poor Bugs, never causes any problems!

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mac! Thanks for watching…

yes, Bugs never caused any problems. What a sweetheart. he comforted Clifford through the stressful time.

Isn’t it interesting that Roger is closer to Valmore than to Bugs even though Bugs had been his only bonded friend for time and time?

[mrmac]

Those pictures are adorable! Best buddies…Guess it just goes to show that “instant” love at first sight kind of bond.

[RachelB]

Aw geez they are toooo CUTE!!!

[jerseygirl]

So interesting seeing all these dynamics played out (and confusing/confounding sometimes too!). Well Done!!!! Agreed, persistance really paid off. I really hope the transistion home goes smoothly. Now you can have some one-on-one time with your trio til the next lot arrive.

[Deleted User]

They are going home on Sunday and I am not worried. Last week I still was. But at this point I’m even keeping my fingers crossed for the possibility of a groom between Valmore and Clifford before they leave here.

I think their owner will be happy even though Bugs and Roger have been split up in a sense; I remember when they were a pair all Roger seemed to want to do is hump Bugs. Now with Valmore as his best buddy Roger is showing much more personality and  is discovering other things besides humping.

[RachelB]

The look great!! It is amazing how quickly they progressed once they made it over the hump and accepted their “roles” in the relationship!!!

[Deleted User]

Posted By Rachel on 09/16/2009 09:14 AM

(…)once they made it over the hump and …

Rachel, did you intend for the pun?

[Deleted User]

The quartett will be leaving, I realize, in only three more days! I have to make more videos. I will miss them.

[RachelB]

heheh maybe

They sure are adorable…. what in the world are you going to do with all your free time now?!

[mrmac]

They are so funny! Too cute!!!

[FluffyBunny]

CONGRATS on getting the Quartett bonded!! Bugs sounds a little like Mr. Bunny.

[jerseygirl]

2nd to last vid made me
Last one…..mmmm Roger and Valmore are rascals! They look to annoy Clifford and/or Bugs the naughty little dudes. I’m not saying I think it’s a concern. Quite natural I guess for groups to have the dominants v’s the passives on a low level. Good Clifford and Bugs have each other for comfort.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Rachel on 09/16/2009 03:03 PM
heheh maybe

They sure are adorable…. what in the world are you going to do with all your free time now?!

 Thanks, everyone.

haha! I have to catch up with all the stuff that I let slide… … bonding was such a perfect excuse…

Yes, bunny cuteness times four! Totally addictive.

–Jersey: well, your eyes don’t miss a thing usually and not this time either. But, this is such a new bond and I went through the same with  Lint and Deirdra, the little harassing here and there and scaring off at imes. Bugs and Clifford are just beginning to calm down, it was a stressful time, everybunny was on edge. But there are moments of sweet closeness and kindness already between all of them and time will turn them into a snuggly bunch.

I trimmed their nails tonight and I realized once more what a wild bunny Valmore really is. He bit me, scratched me (deep, 6″ bloody scratch), kicked me, took off on me… he’s just one unruly teenager bun! I don’t know if I wanted t to bond with him if I were a bunny…..

[flippersmom]

Wow Petzy!!! What a great job!!!! I had been following along inthe begining, but got behind once I started working on my own foursome (and school and hockey started!!!). Not only are the comfortable with each other, but it looks like they have let the dogs become part of the clan as well!!!!!

As for your free time….I may have to use up some of it bugging you for help when I add contestant 5 & 6 into my group!!!!!

[Deleted User]

Posted By flippersmom on 09/17/2009 04:05 PM
Wow Petzy!!! What a great job!!!! I had been following along inthe begining, but got behind once I started working on my own foursome (and school and hockey started!!!). Not only are the comfortable with each other, but it looks like they have let the dogs become part of the clan as well!!!!!

As for your free time….I may have to use up some of it bugging you for help when I add contestant 5 & 6 into my group!!!!!

 

Thanks Flippersmom! This was my hardest bond. It took 7 weeks. I will definitely watch for your bonding reports!! Bonding six rabbits… that could be interesting — nothing a hockey mom can’t do !!

 

[Deleted User]

The quartett went home yesterday after 8 weeks of being here exactly.  Their bond was solid when they left. Bugs even holding his own now to Valmore.

They did go in one tiny cage for the transport.

 

I miss them…

Their owner phoned and said their arrival in their new habitat went without hostilities.

It’s done.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

WOW Congrats Petzy!!!! What a wonderful job you did!!! Can you come to my house and make me a foursome??
I know you’ll miss them-you’ll have to go visit!!

[mrmac]

Yay! Good to hear the transition to the new space went well too. You will definitely have to visit!

[jerseygirl]

What a nice finale seeing them all munching away together. And hearing they arrived home happy. Well Done! It’s bittersweet though….I think I’m going to miss them here at BB. I got a little sad seeing this last post.

[Deleted User]

Sad but there had to be an ending.

I did visit. I  got a couple of photos of their run, we had to bring them in before complete darkness.  I would love a run like theirs for my trio… the quartett shares it with three cats that don’t seem to mind the occasional, ahem, humping (Roger!!!)

Valmore and Clifford in the corner above.

Bugs in front and Roger back right.

–the wooden house is the bomb. It is heated so on a mild winter day they can be outside for a couple of hours but can sleep in the hay inside that house for shelter. The run has a mesh cover, but it’s hard to see in my photos.

 

[mrmac]

I want one of those!

[Deleted User]

sad update: Roger has passed away after dealing with megacolon for a couple of months. After his passing, Valmore and Clifford bullied little Bug so their owner removed Bug from the trio. Bug is surrounded by his owner’s three cats who have taken a liking to him. The left-over pair of Valmore and Clifford is a very close and strong bond. What irony, they were my nemesis to bond. ~

[mrmac]

Poor Roger. It is good to hear though that Valmore and Clifford are getting along well!

[Author]

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