A Tale of Two Bunnies – Bonding Journal – Pepper and Frisco

[wendyzski]

Once upon a time there was a little bunny lost in a big bad woods.  Her people had decided that she was too grown-up for them and they abandoned her.  But she was rescued and after many adventures she came to live in a home of her very own where she was treated like the princess she always was.  Her name was Pepper.

Pepper’s servant thought that she was lonely during the day, and wished for her to have companionship.  She she was taken to a place where she met many princes who vied for her attention.  But  many were daunted by her brave spirit and fled from her.  But the Court Jester did love the strong and fierce princess, and he did everything he could to impress her.  He danced,  he flopped, he snuggled, and  while she was startled at first, she began to realize that maybe there was something to this madcap crazybun.  The servant agreed, and they took the Court Jester back to the castle.  His name was Frisco.

It will not be an easy match – Frisco knows not the ways of court life nor proper behavior with a lady, and Pepper has grown used to having her castle all to herself.  But their servant is wise and clever and has many advisors to counsel her, and all shall be revealed herein.

[wendyzski]

Well THAT didn’t go well….

When I got home I let Frisco out into his pen (made of 24" high grids) and fed them both veggies on opposite sides of the fence.  There was some sniffing and spraying, but when she tried to bite his butt thru the wires I put up the cardboard shield.

I spent some time petting her, and then went in his pen and sat there while he mostly stayed in his cage and ate hay, and came out a couple of times to tentatively approach me.

After about half an hour I left him loose and protected (I thought) in his shielded pen and came out to watch some TV.  About 15 minutes later I heard some scrabbly nails on tile and thought that maybe Frisco was running laps.  But then it happened again.  I ran into the kitchen and found that Pepper had somehow gotten into his pen and they were fighting!  I grabbed her out while Frisco ran and hid in his cage.  I don’t see any wounds but there are some decent sized tufts of fur from both of them floating around.

All I can figure is that Pepper somehow got thru a 4" gap at the end of the cardboard, climbed up on the trash can and made it up and over the fence!  I forgot that this is the incredible ladder-climbing and swimming bunny.  I’ve blocked that gap and moved the trash can.  I spent a little time petting everyone – poor Frisco won’t come out of his cage though he flattened out with eyes closed for a good petting. 

OK – that’s not exactly the beginning I was hoping for…

[Faye Perry]

On no Wendyski i am sorry for you!

Its truly awful to see bunnies fighting, when all you want for them is to have a friend and be happy.

Can you try the car rides, or something like that?

I wish you all the best xxx

[wendyzski]

Car rides are an option – I’m in a car-sharing service.  I’m also thinking of stuffing them into the larger carrier and pushing them around the block on my laundry cart – the noise and vibration should be similar.

I’m pretty sure she didn’t go in to be aggressive.  She went in curious, he probably got in her face, she realized she couldn’t get out again, freaked out, and they got into it.  She is still sniffing and digging at the covered fence and trying to periscope over it, so she’s not too traumatized.

But first I need another day or so with him – I’d like to trim his nails down a bit before we start serious bonding, and he’s still skittish in his new home.

[Lucy]

are you switching their cages? I know if you do you would be limiting Pepper’s roaming, but it might help them get used to eachother’s smells. I found this to work wonders, because before I knew it I had a non-nuetrual territory which they both could bond in since it smelled like both of them. It might help with Frisco’s spraying too.. maybe switching them for two hours or so would help if you don’t want to do it overnight.

[wendyzski]

I do plan to do that, but in a few days. 

Right now the entire kitchen smells like boy-bunny-pee so getting used to his scent isn’t a problem

[wendyzski]

Today’s lesson – Separate but equal.

Last night I again let them see each other thru the fence while they ate.  However, Pepper charged the bars and when I blocked her with a glove she actually growled at me!  So I put the wall back up again, and gave everyone a break. She still came by a bit later and nipped my butt.

Later that night I spent about an hour playing messenger.  I’ve been wearing the same pair of sweats for this so that they will smell like both buns.  I’d go sit with one for playtime and pettings, then go right to the other for the same.  See – that smell isn’t ALL bad!  Then back again, near the wall.  She is still occasionally digging at the wall, but not trying to shove it any more.

Frisco is settling down a little.  He actually climbed up on me while I was lying on the floor, and then did a couple of binkies.  His poop habits are awful, so he’s becoming well acquainted with Mr Roomba.

Today I plan to do the same thing again – continue to work with both individually with scent but not sight.  I also want to trim Frisco’s nails – they are a bit long and I’d rather both be blunted for actual meetings.

[Gravehearted]

well – girl buns tend to much more territorial, and seeing as he’s on her turf, her behavior isn’t so surprising.
it sounds like you’re making some progress though – it can be really slow going initially, but it sounds like you’ve been wonderfully patient.

i’m so glad to hear that Frisco is settling in, he sounds like such a cutie.

hope today’s session goes well…

[wendyzski]

Two big events today – I put them in each other’s cages for a couple of hours this morning, and this evening was the first official attempt at a bonding session.

The cage switch went pretty well – I feel sorry for Pepper because I’m sure he peed all over her cage.  I shut him into her condo and put her into his pen.  When I got back from running errands she had gotten out.  Sigh.  I am no match for Clever-bunny.

We just finished our first "bonding session".  It really ought to be called our first "Try to make sure they don’t kill each other" session.  There was a LOT of aggression on both sides.  I’m covered in pee and hair and between the poop and the hair I had quite the vacuuming session in the apartment hallway afterwards.   She is either initially aggressive or can be set off by sudden movements.  Pretty much everything he does is sudden, so I spent a lot of time sticking my hand between them to forestall a clinch.  There were a couple of bad ones – including one of Frisco dancing away with a mouth full of fur.  And she bit me on purpose a couple of times.  "Lemme at ‘im!"   Anyone planning on this, get the heavy leather gloves at the hardware store – I’d have needed stitches if I didn’t have them.  As it is they already have a couple of cuts in each glove and I’ve only used them twice.

But there were 3 brief sessions of side-by-side sitting while I petted them both.  I ended things on a note of sitting facing about 6" away for about a minute without charging.  It was as close to "ending on a positive note" as I could manage.

I plan pretty much the same thing tomorrow.  I knew this wasn’t going to be easy, and I’m committed to at least 3-4 weeks before making any final decision.  But oh how I wish they’d just suddenly decide they like each other.

[Gravehearted]

wow that sounds like quite the rough and tumble session.

I’m so glad you had the gloves, it’s dangerous to stick your hands between feuding buns! i have used a frying pan splatter guards to separate fighting buns. you might also try a water bottle – i found it helped a lil to distract them while i scooped somebunny up. Did they actually get into the ying/yan (or death spiral) circle chase – that is pretty dangerous.

[wendyzski]

Yes they spiraled – at least twice.  Very scary.  I was able to separate them though, but there was fur all over the place.

I have a spray bottle but with one hand on each bun to separate them and then scoop one up I ran out of limbs.

I think tonight I will put the second gate up between them and take down the cardboard.  That way they can see each other but she can’t bite thru the bars.  Maybe that will get her more used to his sudden movements.  Then maybe tomorrow we’ll try again with all of us in a pen on the porch.

[osprey]

I like the idea of a splatter guard, never thought of that.  I have read about people using a plastic colander to put between fighting buns too.

[wendyzski]

I took some pix tonight.

Since visual stimulus seemed to provoke her, I thought it might be good to again try letting them interact thru the fence.  But since with a single layer Pepper would charge it and actually lift and shove it back several inches, I used the folding pen I made from NIC cubes to make a 2nd layer of fence and used 2 bricks for weight and spacing.  that way they can see/spray each other but no biteys.

The Bunny Bunker.

His cage is actually out of view in the far right corner.  Hers can be seen at right.

View from his side.  Note all the poops and puddles – some is pee, some is veggie drool.  He is such a BOY!

How can you not love that face?

Dinner side by side.

We’ll try this for a day or two before trying to put them together again.  I’m still shutting him into his cage overnight and while I’m at work because she has gotten into and out of his pen before and I don’t want to risk it.

[wendyzski]

They gave me a defective bunny!

I mentioned on one of my other bunny groups that Frisco was leaving drooly green puddles everywhere at veggie time and someone suggested that I get his teeth looked at. 

I dropped an e-mail to the folks at Red Door and sure enough – he has a history of tooth spurs.  I’ve seen pictures and it looks like a pretty uncomfortable thing to have.  Might account for part of why he is so skittish as well.

Since he’s still a foster, the shelter covers his medical care and they use the same vet I do. I was lucky enough to get an appointment for Saturday morning, and have a car-share reserved.  I may try to use the car trip over as a bonding-thing, and then switch them to separate carriers there if they start to tussle.

I wonder if the bunny-dentist will give him a carrot-flavored lollipop if he is good?

[BinkyBunny]

Aw the joys of bunny bonding.  Well, Frisco sure is making his mark…all over the place.  He sure is a dominant guy – he’s clearly pooping and spraying that message loud and smelly.

I think you are smart in giving it a time line, and it sounds like you did the best you could to end in on a positive note.  Sounds like a car rides would be in order whenever you can manage it.

Also, have you tried the stunt double thing yet?   Maybe it will help each one get used to the others scent in a non-threatening way.

Note on spurs.   That could be  an ongoing process.   Rucy has to get her trimmed about two to three times a year.   They have to sedate her each time, and so you may want to check on the vet costs for this since you most likely will be doing this for the rest of his life if it is a ongoing issue. (like a genetic misalignment.)   Just to be prepared for the financial cost.

[wendyzski]

Sigh.  One step forward and one step back.

For two days now they’ve been interacting though double bars – close enough to see/spray but not to bite.  Things were going well – pepper spent a lot of time laying like a little sphynx next to the bars, and last night she even did a FLOP right up against the fence.  I’ve never seen her flop before.

So tonight after dinner I took down the second row of fence to see if they would groom or otherwise interact thru it.

In a word – no.

Pepper again charged the fence, grabbing it in her teeth and shoving it forward about 6".  She boxed at it, and tried to bite poor little Frisco on the nose at least twice.  Good thing he is a fast little bugger.

All right – I know when I’m licked.  I turned it into a 15-minute session in each other’s enclosures while I put the 2nd barrier back up and then after a treat next to the fence for each one I’m calling it a night.

So tomorrow I’ll try as neutral a territory as I can come up with – the downstairs lobby of my apartment building.  It has a tile floor and should smell like a wide variety of people and pets.

I know that the car-ride thing is supposed to be a good trick to get them to cuddle, but with Pepper being SOOOO aggressive I’m afraid to try and put them into the same carrier. 

[wendyzski]

hee – you posted while I was writing.

I’m going to ask about costs for tooth-trimming and how often he seems to need it while we are there this weekend.  I know I need to think about if I can afford it.

[wendyzski]

Well, that wasn’t tooo awful….

Tonight since the weather was decent I decided on the building’s back porch for tonight’s session.  It probably smells like trash and pigeon poop, and CERTAINLY not like home.  The pen I am using at its largest is twice the size of a bathtub, and when I sit cross-legged on a meditation cushion there is a crescent-shaped space they can use to interact but no where I cannot reach them.  I brought out a plate of veggies (cut small) and set it between them.

At the beginning there was a LOT of aggression on both sides.  I think Frisco is starting to really be afraid of her, and she still startles easily, especially when stressed.  I had to pull apart a couple of major clinches, including one where I couldn’t get him to let go of her leg-fur for what seemed like forever, and another where I actually pulled him off the ground, hanging by his teeth from my glove, eyes squeezed shut and all four feets a’kicking.

After about 10 minutes they settled down to studiously ignoring each other from opposite sides of the pen.  For a while they were actually alternating ooching up to the plate and grabbing a piece of veggie before backing off.  Frisco did a couple of drive-by sprayings, but then spent quite a bit of time hiding behind my leg, sticking his head out to chin the occasional piece of broccoli.  Pepper just sat and munched, between bouts of trying to figure out how to get out of the pen.

After half an hour or so, I folded the pen in a bit smaller to try and get them to interact.  He came up to her face and sniffed her several times, but only for a split second before jumping back.  She pretty much either ignored him or gave him the bunny-butt.  Then we got to sitting about a foot apart and grooming – including a terribly cute simultaneous face-washing episode.

We had been out there for around 45 minutes, I was getting kind of cold, and I figured that this was about as close to "ending on a positive note" as I was likely to get, so everyone came back inside and got a small handful of cilantro on their respective sides of the fence.

Whew!  It could have been better, but it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

[FuegaNetsah]

How much is the teeth trimming?

[wendyzski]

I don’t know how much it would be – this time the shelter is covering it because he’s still a foster, but our vet is excellent though spendy.

Ugh – a bit better a bit worse tonight…

A bit better in that the initial fighting was shorter and took longer to get started.
A bit worse in that they actually tussled quite a bit later in the session.

People have been saying to keep the sessions short,  but I’ve been staying kind of long because the initial aggression seems to be followed by a mutual truce and that is where I think progress is being made.

Tonight seemed to be following the same pattern as last night – I had to separate them a lot, and this time Frisco got his teeth (through the glove) into the meat under my thumb and wouldn’t let go.  I’m going to have one hell of a bruise in the morning.  I tried the spray bottle as a distraction this time – it works with Pepper – makes her immediately go and have a good groom.  But it seems to set Frisco off even worse – I wonder if to him it seems like another male spraying him?  He’s certainly quite the little lawn sprinkler himself.

Frisco again resorted to hiding behind my leg a lot, and after one particularly nasty tussle he practically went catatonic!  I picked him up to make sure he was okay and he was pretty much limp and panting, his little heart racing. Poor little boy!  I held and petted him for quite a while and he wouldn’t be comforted even with a bit of parsely – not even a nibble.

I confess I took advantage of this and held him still and held him up to her face so she could sniff and see him when he wasn’t moving.  Once he started squirming again, I let him go, and then picked her up and did the same to him.  About 5 seconds each, a couple of times each.

I thought things were going well, so I tried the dab-of-peanut-butter-on-the-head trick.  Pepper spent the entire time rushing about trying to find the peanut butter that she could clearly smell but was really on her head.  Frisco didn’t respond at all – it’s quite possible he didn’t find it appetizing.  All her rushing about set him thumping and running, which started to make her thumpy-jumpy, so I called it a night before things got out of hand again.

Tomorrow I take Frisco to the vet so I’m not sure if we’ll try another session tomorrow – it depends on how stressed he is.

[BinkyBunny]

 

Posted By FuegaNetsah on 03/30/2007 4:03 PM
How much is the teeth trimming?

If I remember right, it costs me about 150 bucks each time.  I  have to have hers trimmed 2 – 3 times a year.     I think it really depends on how bad it is and if they can sedate or must put a bunny fully under.

 

[BinkyBunny]

Wendyzski,

I know what you are talking about with some bunnies needing to get over their anxiety and aggression in the beginning before you can see them settle down.   You are doing the smart thing by reading their situation and adjusting the bonding method. 

If you find that they continue to get aggressive,  you may need to do stress methods first, like car rides.

I do know they are working out their own issues with each other and dominant displays are normal, but if they get into serious fight everytime, it may hinder bonding as they will begin to associate each other with aggression.    So if it continues you may need to move them to another neutral territory or stress method introductions. 

For example, I would take bunnies on a car ride for 20 minutes prior to each bonding session in the neutral territory.

[wendyzski]

I’m trying to come up with a variation on the car-ride thing. I’m alone and really don;t have an extra set of hands available.

I thought about putting them both in a carrier and running a vacuum next to it, or putting them in my laundry cart and pushing it around the block or something, but I’m afraid they will fight in the carrier.

Any suggestions for stress-bonding stuff I can do by myself?

[Lucy]

do you have a laundry machine in the building? That’s what I did.. though the stress thing did even worse things for my buns. that way you can put them in a box (or carrier) on top of the washer or dryer and keep them both in. possibly keep another carrier on the floor so if it gets bad scoop one up and plop them in. but for me, fujoe was aggressive on the washer, but terrified in the car. I don’t know why.. also, my most successful attempts at bonding were in the tub.. something about the slipperiness of it that threw them off.. have you tried that?

about the spray bottle, that was usless for fujoe too.. I would keep spraying it till he was soaked, and nothing.. he wouldn’t stop mounting patina. he was one determined bun! (now it’s only her that mounts, not him)

oh, the penut butter.. neither bunnies like that, but have you tried the banana? The first time i did it, it was a nightmare. They went crazy.that and thier foreheads were sticky for a few days. the second time there was grooming. but i didn’t know who the dominant bunny was, so i put a little on both bunnies. would you try that? though pepper does seem to be dominant to you, it might be the other way around. or maybe all that frisco needs are a few licks to settle him down so he doesn’t feel like he needs to spray his belongings.

keep it up. it was really bad for me too. I never thought he would stop mounting- and it took a long time for grooming to occur. but now they love eachother, and if feels nice that I don’t have to worry about leaving fujoe alone. but you’re doing a great job- it’s just really exhausting- both on you and the bunnies

[wendyzski]

Good news – Firsco’s teeth are fine.  When he first came in his incisors were very uneven, and that was the "history of tooth issues" that showed in his file.  I can attest that his front teeth are just fine thank you very much.  (*ow*)

Bad news – she found a nasty bite wound on his side from last night’s session – it didn;t bleed much so I missed it.  That’s two bites in 3 sessions (a small one the first night) , and calls this whole thing into serious question.  Scuffling is one thing, but actual injury is another.  This explains why he went limp last night – that’s a result of injury.  Poor little boy!

I’m dropping a line to Toni at the shelter for advice, and planning on keeping them separate until I hear from her.  I may try the rescue remedy thing anyway, and then pen her into the kitchen so she is forced to at least interact with him thru the fence.

[osprey]

Aw, sorry to hear that Frisco got bitten.  Drawing blood is definitely a bad sign, that means she meant to hurt him.  I don’t know if that is a deal breaker or not, hopefully the folks at the shelter will be able to advise you.

[wendyzski]

Frisco will be going back to Red Door.

I just talked with our bonding coach and she agrees that it’s not going well at all.  Bites mean that she meant to hurt him.

I’ll be bringing Frisco back to the shelter early this week.  He’s such a sunny little bunny that I think he’s a cinch to get adopted soon.  That’s what I have to keep telling myself.

I know I did my best, but I still feel horribly guilty. *cries* 
Why does my bunny have to be such a beeotch?

We’re going to give everyone a break for 2-3 weeks, and then there will be a couple of new boys to meet.  We might even try Frisco again if he’s still there, but if he has really developed a fear of her then he needs some other place.

[osprey]

There is absolutely nothing you could have done better to get the bond to work.  You tried all the tricks and worked with them, she just does not like him enough and seems to be territorial to boot.  A couple of things come to mind, maybe your bonding coaches have considered this already:

– Have you tried her with any other girls?  Girl/girl bonds are hard, and adding a girl to a household with an only girl is really hard, but sometimes the chemistry just works.

– Does the shelter have any really young bunnies?  Sometimes a baby is less threatening to an alpha bun.

Chin up, give yourself credit for trying.  Some buns just don;t want company, she could be one of those too.

[wendyzski]

We tried her with the calmest female they had and the fight was worse than any of the boys.

We had hoped that Frisco being noticably smaller and younger would help, but it’s his very friskiness that seems to be setting her off.   I’m pretty confident that his sunny outgoing nature will find him a home soon.  I picked him up tonight to check the bites and he snuggled my neck and tooth-purred.  I know I’m going to cry when I bring him back on Tuesday.

The much younger bun is an idea – they have at least two boys that they’d like to try her with but they are both being neutered this coming week, and I’m not sure about their ages.

We’ll take a break of a couple of weeks, and give things another shot.  I’ll clean out the cage and pen but leave them set up .

[Gravehearted]

as a mom of a bunny who just wouldn’t bond, I know how frustrating and disappointing it is to invest a lot of energy and effort into an unsuccessful bonding. i’m so sorry to hear things didn’t work out with Frisco, you really did so much good work with them – it just may not have been the right match.

[wendyzski]

And they didn’t live happily ever after.  The End.

I brought Frisco back to Red Door tonight. 
I cried when I dropped him off, as I knew I would.

They were at great pains to reassure me that they would find him another home, and that I could visit him too.  They also made a point of showing me some of the boys that will be neutered by the end of the month, stressing the "laid-back" ones.

Now it’s time to clean out the cage and pen.  I’ll probably cry again then too.

[osprey]

Aw, that stinks.  Just remember, she makes the choices, there was nothing you could have done better.

[Gravehearted]

I’m so sad for you – but I agree with what Osprey said, you did all you could with them. if Miss Pepper isn’t willing to make it work, then you’ve made the right choice for both bunnies. I can imagine how hard it must have been for you to take him back *big hugs*

[FuegaNetsah]

Wendy,
Very sorry to hear about Frisco. They are very easy to get attached to but it does sound like you made the best decision for him and you can always go check on him. It was an experience and it might make the next dating round a little easier. Maybe she doesn’t need a laid back fellow but one who will not back down from her? I know I am not alone when I say that I am waiting to hear what happens next in the adventures of Pepper.

Donna

[BinkyBunny]

AWWWW.  I’m sorry!  That must have hurt!  But you did the right thing for everyone, everybunny.   But I know that doesn’t take away the pain you felt.   it sounds like Red Door is an excellent shelter and they really care so much, so Frisco will find a loving home and be very happy, and Pepper may still find love. 

I’m sending happy heart vibes to you.   HUGS!

[wendyzski]

Thanks. 

When Red Door did a news story on "don’t buy easter bunnies", the lead picture was Toni and Frisco, so I hope someone falls in love with him and takes him home

[wendyzski]

Happily Ever After

I’ve been keeping track of little Frisco on Petfinder, and just learned that he got adopted last week

Fare Well my sunny little bunny-boy.  May you always have lots of snuggles and craisins.

 

The End

[Author]

Messages