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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

FORUM BONDING Increased nipping/fur pulling. Have we moved too fast?

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    • feireia
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        Spay/Neuter
        Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes
        If so, for how long (for each)? Pekoe (male): 5 years, Lottie (female): 1 year
        If not, why not?
        Are you aware of reproductive cancer risk in females? If not, please read about it here.

        Housing
        Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.). Set up as neighbors in our living room (Pekoe’s original living space). Each are housed in their own 4 ft x 4 ft pens when it is not their turn to get exercise. 

        Bonding background
        Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? Pekoe has been with us for a while but Lottie has been with for a couple weeks now. We started the bonding dates the day after she came home with us at the suggestion of her rescue. 

        How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.?

        Pekoe is pretty nervous when placed in the neutral bonding space and remains quite on-edge throughout the session. He offers his head for grooms and in our first couple bonding sessions, Lottie did groom him. Since then, when Pekoe approaches her and bows his head Lottie nips him or pushes him away with her front paws (boxing?).

        Lottie is nervous at first but relaxes enough to eat and self-groom. She has even laid out in the bonding space. She is a bit on-edge when Pekoe approaches her but she is otherwise curious about the space she is in. 

        Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? If so, for how long?

        They currently live in enclosures side-by-side (separated by a few inches to prevent fights and biting) and we swap their enclosures after every bonding session/every day.

        Have you started sessions yet? Yes, started sessions. We have been doing sessions of varying lengths for a little over a week and a half. 
        How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? A week and a half
        How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? Bonding sessions every day. We started with 30 minutes and because we saw Lottie grooming Pekoe, we increased it to an hour. Since grooming stopped and more nipping and fur pulling has been observed, we’ve drastically decreased the time to 10-15 minutes. We started in 2 ft x 2 ft space and that went well so we increased to 3 ft x 3 ft. We didn’t see any interactions between the two (both picked a corner and stayed there the entire time) so we went back down to the smaller space. 

        Have you tried any stressing techniques? We typically start bonding sessions with the two in a carrier and walking around our home with them.

         

        I realize we are quite early on in the bonding process but I’m a bit worried that Lottie’s new behavior of pushing Pekoe away with her front paws and the increased nipping/fur pulling has been a result of me pushing this process along too quickly. When they alternate free-roam time, they lay in front of the other’s pen and they mirror each other’s behaviors (grooming, eating) so it seems like bonding sessions will go well, but that is not the case when we move to the bonding space. I was originally planning to marathon bond them in a couple days since I have a week or so off from work to do so, but I’m starting to wonder if that is even a good idea anymore. Have I pushed them to the point that we need to take an extended break from bonding? There have been no fights resulting in wounds, just lots of fur pulling and nipping.


      • LBJ10
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          It sounds like she doesn’t appreciate his pushiness (demanding to be groomed) and she just wants some space. I would not be overly worried yet. You could either try giving them a bit of a break, or you could try distracting them by taking them for a car ride (or similar) in a carrier together. Stressing them isn’t necessarily a good thing, but it does work for some bunnies because they decide comforting each other is more important and asking to be groomed/demanding space.

          Is this the size space (3×3) you normally have them in for these sessions? Have you tried a bigger area so she has somewhere to retreat?


        • feireia
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            We’ve walked around our home for a few minutes with both in the carrier and that seems to help some. Is using that method to start every single session a bad approach? I want to avoid the association that carrier with other bun = scary.

            The 3 x 3 is not the usual space, no. We used it once, didn’t see any interactions (both claimed a corner), and went back to a smaller space (2 x 2). We’ll try a larger area! Hopefully, that makes Lottie less anxious.

            How much fur pulling is too much where we should end a session? We step in with a dust pan when there’s a retaliatory nip but we have not (thankfully) gotten to a serious fight breaking out.


          • LBJ10
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              Is the carrier by itself not already scary? Cause my bunny does not like the carrier no matter what. I’m thinking they wouldn’t associate the other bunny with the carrier… just that the carrier is scary and, oh look, someone is here that can help me feel better. But I guess we can’t read their little bunny minds. My bunny does some of the weirdest things and I have no clue what he’s thinking.

              I do think a larger space with enough room for them to truly retreat is a good thing to try at this point. As for the fur pulling, you don’t want it to get to the point where there’s large chunks of fur everywhere. A little fluff after a spat isn’t the end of the world. You just don’t want there to be injury or grudges formed.


            • feireia
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                We tried a larger space today and started during the time of day when they are normally napping, and so far so good with minimal nipping! I have a feeling bonding will be more eventful though as we move into their more active hours…

                There is some digging behavior we’re noticing with both Lottie and Pekoe. They’re digging at the ground rather than on the other but is that anything to be concerned about? Is it just boredom?


              • LBJ10
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                  Digging can also be out of frustration. Particularly if they want to do something, but aren’t able to. Example: They want out to run around, but the pen is closed.


                • feireia
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                    We moved into their evening hours and things went relatively smoothly. Overall, it felt like a good 7-hr bonding session! Lottie groomed Pekoe once but he has not yet reciprocated. He got nippy whenever Lottie approached him from the side or hopped towards him too quickly. We also noticed both buns stuck to the same spots for most of the session, maybe in an effort to claim that as their territory?

                    Lottie and Pekoe spent most of the time laying around and ignoring each other, but is there a point where I should be encouraging them to interact, where there’s too much ignoring that progress is not really being made?


                  • Bam
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                      I think ignoring is great, actually. I means sth like “I don’t see you as a threat and I’m not a threat to you”. I’d let them do the ignoring in peace tbh. It’s a really promising and important step. There is communication going on, but it’s very subtle.

                      After a cpl of sessions of ignoring  you could introduce some hay, a tiny pile each. Not high value treats, greens or pellets, that could cause a fight. Just some hay, because it’s very good if they’re relaxed enough to eat in each other’s presence.


                    • LBJ10
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                        Sounds like a larger space was all they needed! I agree that ignoring is not a bad thing. It’s progress.


                      • feireia
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                          We’ve had a couple days of long sessions in this larger space and things are progressing! There is still nipping but it seems like Lottie is reacting less frequently. Pekoe has gotten less patient though and the poop wars are beginning. We have hay on the floor as well as a litter box that they both have used, though not at the same time.

                          One consistent behavior we’ve been noticing though is them staying in the same corners throughout the session. Should this behavior be discouraged in that I should block these areas off? They do wander around a bit but, because we do these sessions largely during their sleepy hours, there isn’t a whole lot of movement and they always come back to these corners. They do lay out and seem to relax in these areas; Lottie even flops and they both have dreamed.


                        • LBJ10
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                            I wouldn’t rush anything if they are peacefully getting along this way.


                          • feireia
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                              Thanks for the feedback! I’ve let them keep ignoring each other and we’re starting to see one-sided grooming again!

                              A new behavior that’s emerging is Pekoe has been lunging at Lottie, which we discourage/interrupt as soon as we notice. In the instances where we haven’t stopped him in time, Lottie generally moves away then almost immediately goes back to doing what she was originally doing (e.g. eating, grooming) or lays down. If she has these behaviors even when getting nipped, is it safe to assume she doesn’t like it but she’s not bothered enough by it too much?


                            • LBJ10
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                                He may simply be saying, “hey, I’m the boss around here”. Lottie is acknowledging by backing up and then returning to what she was doing, so I would say that is a good sign. And grooming is great, even if it is one-sided!


                              • Bam
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                                  I think ot’s good you’re interrupting attempts at violence – I do with my buns on the rare occasions I’ve seen  chasing/nipping that lasts more than seconds. Best not to let things get a chance to escalate. But it’s really great that Lottie doesn’t seem bothered by it and just goes back to eating/chilling 😃

                                  Not all bonded buns spend all their time snuggling or doing everything together. And in some bonded couples, there’s only ever one-sided grooming. Those things don’t mean the bond isnt strong or “good”. The bond my girl bun Snöa now has with my boy bun Lage is different from the bond she shared with her first husbun (who sadly passed over the Bridge very much too young). I don’t think it’s a better or less good bond, it’s just different, more of a big sister-little brother type vibe.


                                • feireia
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                                    That’s reassuring! If this bond ends up being a one-sided grooming, annoying-sibling kind of bond, do the indicators for them being bonded change? Is getting along for 24+ hours without any nipping, chasing, fighting still the indicator?


                                  • LBJ10
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                                      Getting along for over 24 hours can still be used as an indicator. But you may need to learn to read their behavior a little more. One bunny annoying the other bunny (including a small nip) is going to be different than one bunny trying to pick a fight. If that makes sense. LOL  Bonded bunnies can have little spats now and then, but they are going to be fewer and far between. It really just depends on the bond they have.


                                    • feireia
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                                        Wanted to come back and provide an update for Lottie and Pekoe:

                                        We went away for a weekend and the buns stayed with Lottie’s rescue in the meantime. They kept the two together in the same pen since they didn’t see any bad behaviors other than a bit of fur pulled in the first hour of their stay. Although they aren’t snuggly with each other and still are a bit nippy with each other, they’ve been housed together for the 48+ hours we’ve been home with them with no fights or fur pulled!

                                        Seems like all they needed after our extended daytime bonding sessions were a change of scenery and a bit of trauma bonding. They’re currently back in their neutral bonding space and over the next few weeks, we’re going to slowly transition them to their final living space!


                                      • LBJ10
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                                          Glad to hear they are getting along well. Yes, sometimes an unfamiliar setting can help cement things.


                                        • GlennTheLionhead
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                                            Hi!

                                            Glad to hear your bunnies seem to be bonding nicely. Just an anecdote of encouragement – when I bonded my long term boy to my most recent rescue girl, for the first year they cuddled and showed one sided grooming, after a year (and 3 years later) they now both groom each other and are supper snuggly buns. I guess he was just very stubborn! So sometimes the dynamic can take some time to truly settled… Even though it only took them a couple weeks of dating to actually bond. Of course this is not always the case.

                                            Good luck!


                                          • feireia
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                                              Update: I spoke too soon… 😔 We moved Pekoe and Lottie out to their final living space (living room) and expanded every 24 hours until they had half of our living room. I thought they were doing so well that I gave them the other half of the living room too and that, in combination with a cleaning of their litter box and enclosed area, must have been too much all at once because I woke up one morning to multiple tufts of fur and water splashed around. Thankfully, there were no wounds.

                                              We moved the two back to their neutral bonding space for a day, where they did great: no fights, no chasing, no fur pulling, just a very nervous Lottie around Pekoe, who seemed to be the initiator of the chasing.
                                              At the recommendation of our rescue, the two were moved back to their space in the living room because they did fine in the neutral space and we’ve been keeping an eye on them since. We removed the blankets and hidey boxes, leaving just their carrier and litter box, and a few chews to keep them entertained.
                                              Our issue now is that Lottie is understandably nervous around Pekoe and, while they were able to hang out in the litter box together in the neutral space, she immediately hops out of the litter box in the living room when he enters. We have mutual grooming but Pekoe still occasionally chases Lottie, who runs away. It seems like there’s been a lot of mixed signals from these two where they will groom one another but then Pekoe gets too eager with requesting grooming and that spooks Lottie, who runs and triggers Pekoe to chase her. I understand that Lottie has to build her confidence around Pekoe again after their scuffle and Pekoe needs to learn her boundaries, but is there something I can do to help rebuild the trust between them?


                                            • LBJ10
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                                                Oh no! That’s no good. :\

                                                What about having 2 litter boxes?


                                              • GlennTheLionhead
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                                                  Sorry to hear you had a set back, it’s does sound like they are doing okay but they may not be fully bonded yet, sometimes it can a take a little time in this phase for them to become properly comfortable and trust eachother but what you have suggested sounds to me like they are still going in the right direction. Bonding can often feel a little like two steps forward one step back. Also sometimes nervous bunnies seem like they are being nervous by running away but actually in bunny speak this may be her telling him that she doesn’t want to groom him right now, and that’s probably where he then gets agitated and chases, he is saying groom me, groom me so I know I’m top bun and she’s saying yes sometimes but I’m setting my boundaries and want to groom you on my terms – this behaviour happened with my most recent pair, an eager to be dominant boy and a nervous but stubborn girl setting boundaries.

                                                  I would usually still supervise in this phase if the chasing and avoiding is happening daily simply to avoid a set back from an unsupervised chase escalating.

                                                  If that is the case and you are not able to supervise 24/7 for days at a time, what worked well for me was to keep them together as normal whenever I was around and as much as possible, but when I was at work I would place a pen grate between their enclosure to seperate them so a chase could not break out unsupervised and potentially hinder the trust. Sharing a fence allowed them contact and to flop next to eachother, at this stage I would think fence sharing is fine for most pairs unless you start to see increased aggression – this worked well for the 3 pairs that I bonded. It helps to give the buns a break from chasing which I found improved their trust and got them over the final hurdle and after just a short while they were able to go 48 hours together without chasing and settled into their bonds. You can also do this when you need to sleep if you are unable to sleep close to them but don’t fully trust them yet. Keeping hay next to the fence for each of them allows them to enjoy eating together too. It might take a little longer than if they are together constantly but for me it gave me peace of mind and kept their stress down which I believe had positive impact.

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                                              FORUM BONDING Increased nipping/fur pulling. Have we moved too fast?