Long term gut slowdown

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 27sd replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by LBJ10.

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- 06/04/2022 at 4:56 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Hi,
  
  I feel like a broken record. Kotton has been in this hole of gut slowdown for over a month. She has been going back and forth to the vet to get IV treatment, we have been giving her reglan and simenthicone on and off to get her to start pooping properly. We have been giving her critical care from time to time to prevent a full-on stasis. I don’t know why she’s not eating hay properly. It seems like her gut is so messed up. She does not even finish her pellets quickly in one setting like she used to. Or finish her water bowl by afternoon as she used to.
  
  No one knows the cause of this except maybe she got a spur in her molar and a change of seasons with the oat hay that triggered a bad stasis and she has trouble climbing out of it. That’s it. No blockages, no living environment changes, and we don’t give her anything sweet usually (unless we have to lure her to eat meds). She does not live with a towel. I am at such a loss.
  
  Anyone with a bunny with long gut problem can shed light and share experiences on how to coax them back to health? Do they even ever go back to the way they used to be or they are changed forever??
  
  Sad…
  
  Debbie
- 06/04/2022 at 7:14 PM
  LBJ10
  Moderator
  17026 posts
  If she does have a molar spur, then that could definitely be what’s causing this.
- 06/05/2022 at 10:15 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  LBJ10 – but it was 2 months ago that this started. Is it common that a bout of GI stasis can turn into a long term GI problem?
  - 06/05/2022 at 5:50 PM
    LBJ10
    Moderator
    17026 posts
    It’s possible for stasis to turn into “long stasis”, where the bunny seems to get a little better and then regresses again. It can take a long time sometimes for them to recover. This is usually when they had a really bad episode though.
  - 06/07/2022 at 6:42 AM
    hophophop
    Participant
    55 posts
    LBJ10 – What would usually be the routine for long stasis recovery? I read from another thread in this forum long time ago, that bun requires long term meds cocktails and critical care to get better but would need to be very slowly wane off the meds. Our Vet does not like us to use meds if possible, and told us to intervene only when necessary with pedialyte and critical care. But so far it looks like our bun is just perpetually borderlining on stasis. Sigh.
  - 06/08/2022 at 7:36 PM
    LBJ10
    Moderator
    17026 posts
    Yes, some bunnies have to be weaned off of the meds if they have been given gut motility drugs, etc. for a long period of time. Honestly though, what you are describing doesn’t really sound like a typical stasis case. I saw your post below indicating that you’re going to try to get a second opinion. I think that’s a good idea. This could be a dental issue. You also mentioned liver numbers that were off. A mild liver torsion could also cause these types of symptoms.
- 06/05/2022 at 10:19 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  I think I posted some info about possible megacolon in your other thread. Do her symptoms line up with possible megacolon? (she has the markings associated with it). Often it manifests as chronic or recurring stasis when buns are between 1-3 years old after a minor stressor or trigger.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/05/2022 at 12:19 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Dana, no she does not always have the weird shaped poop. Only when she is sick that her poops are oddly shaped but IV helps her get fluid and her poop would become round again though sometimes small. And the vet does not think that she has megacolon.
  
  We were supposed to get her liver number again but this past week i got covid and Kotton went back to gut problem when I was in the room all day under quarantine (she was fed but no one sat with her).
  
  The vet thinks that maybe she is lonely and is a social eater and needs a friend. But if she doesn’t snap out of this for long enough, a new friend and bonding process could stress her out too.
  
  I’m so loss and worried.
- 06/06/2022 at 6:03 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Hmmm, well in some sense that’s good, because there is no cure for megacolon, but that does leave more unanswered questions.
  
  Sorry if this has been asked before, but has the vet done x-rays of the mouth (for dental issues) and abdomen (to see what’s going on with the cecum)? That would probably be my next step if not. Imagining could help give some answers about where the specific problem in the gut is occurring.
  
  Other things to consider are a parasite screening to make sure that’s not contributing.
  
  As far as bonding, that’s a bit of an unusual suggestion since she hasn’t been bonded before. You could potentially try fostering another bun to see if having a neighbor helps, but that seems like it could be very stressful for you.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
  - 06/07/2022 at 6:55 AM
    hophophop
    Participant
    55 posts
    They didn’t do a dental x-ray. They keep saying nothing look out of place. Should I request for one? The thing is, Kotton can eat stalks, she just only eats alfafa stalks, and once in awhile (though she used to love oat hay) an oat stalk. She still likes the very hard oat pieces in oat hay. And when her appetite is there, she eats pellets ok but we don’t really give her much of it nowadays as we try to coax her to eat more hay. So when the vet says she’s fine, I don’t have a lot of points to argue about her teeth. I could insist to get one but would it stress her out even more?
    
    They did ab xray in April when she was first sick and there was nothing out of ordinary other than gas bubbles back then. They said if her liver number is still up they may do an ultrasound. Again, we are waiting for her to be either very sick and has to go back, or very healthy and can stand the stress of going back. And now we are all stuck in between.
    
    They did a e-cu screening in March when she had her first stasis (triggered by a vet visit, nail trimming and seasonal hay changes), and a year ago when we got her they did a parasite screening and she’s negative on those too.
    
    She sleeps so much during the day (or rest) she does not eat anything for hours. Should I keep bugging her to wake up and eat? Should I go disturb her all the time?
    
    We are giving her probiotics too but I’m lost as to how we can help her get better. The vet says to intervene as little as possible and just let her try to eat on her own but she’s barely eating when she is in her space on her own.
    
    She sifts through so much hay just to find a small piece she likes to eat everyday. Sometimes I feel like it may not be a bad idea to foster a bunny on the side to finish off all these hay that I end up having to throw away after a day or two. Maybe she’ll eat better but my husband is already very tolerant with this sick one, I don’t think he would be willing to take on another one just to test out if Kotton will eat better.
- 06/07/2022 at 9:56 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Do you trust your vet? I’m a little surprised that they haven’t had her on motility and pain meds with how severe her case has been.
  
  It might be worth getting a second opinion if you have doubts and have other options in your area. Some of the things your vet has said raised my eyebrows a bit (like “intervene as little as possible”).
  
  As far as teeth, any eating selectivity can be a symptom of a dental issue. It wouldn’t necessarily be my first thought in a normal stasis case, but since this has been going on for so long I would be looking for more possibilities. Long strands of hay require a lot of side to side chewing motion, so often buns with spurs will prefer eating crunchy pellets that just kind of shatter when chewed. It is basically impossible to see the back molars on a bun that isn’t under anesthesia. Usually for a dental x-ray or deep oral exam with anesthesia they only sedate the bun very lightly and the whole procedure is very fast.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/07/2022 at 10:53 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Hm, that’s worrying. I’ll reach out to my other friends with bunny to see where I can send her to in the neighborhood. The only other bunny doctors I know are both 30mins to 1 hour of driving away from me.
- 06/07/2022 at 2:05 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  I’m taking Kotton back to our regular vet tomorrow first and they may do a dental xray if she’s not in a terrible condition. And will probably give her some fluids too to hopefully get her back on a better state. And then I’ll see if I can get her records and send to the other vet for a virtual review first. Fingers crossed.
- 06/07/2022 at 7:38 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  I don’t mean to sow too much doubt in your vet, I’m just wondering if a second opinion (especially if you can find a specialist) would be helpful at this stage to hopefully get some answers.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/08/2022 at 9:09 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Yes, I am too. After the blood work and xray today I’m going to get a full record of her tests and will talk to the other vet no matter what and see what they think. I’ll update later when we have more info. Thanks again everyone!
- 06/09/2022 at 9:19 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  So we came back from the vet yesterday after they gave her some iv and did ab and scull/dental xray and extra blood work.
  
  Unfortunately the xray does not show any dental problem and the blood work shows her normal with slight elevation in liver number still, but only by a few numbers not like a double jump. As we have been giving her pedialyte and critical care, they also don’t see her with very off numbers in electrolyte and her weight did not drop. I don’t know how that’s possible I guess she has been eating alfafa and cc ok, she gets enough nutrients?? That still does not explain why she’s not eating or drinking properly. And because of that, she is still not pooping properly too. I got the blood work report and I saw some numbers that are red but the doc didn’t go through them all with me so I don’t know if some of them are alarming or not. I googled them and got scared of some of the terms like blood cancer or liver lobe torsion…
  
  The vet seems to think that hydration is the culprit. He thinks that we need to encourage her to drink and the rest should come naturally. And we were told to put various different types of bowl in different areas of her space, and add ice cubes in some. We were told to get salt lick. And we were sent home to the same hole. I made an appointment with the new vet but we won’t be able to see them until next Friday. Meanwhile, we’ll have to try the water bowl trick and keep up with the syringe for liquid.
  
  As she came back hydrated yesterday, I tried not to give her critical care, and gave her very very little alfafa overnight and plenty of other hay. She ended up not eating a lot but nibbled a little of oat hay and timothy overnight. This morning, I don’t see poop and she stopped moving around, so I gave her alfafa and she went after it like she has been starving. I also gave her some kale. After a short while she started going pooping and I think she drank some water too as the bowl looks touched and some water gone. But all in all, she is eating way too little of hay and having very very few poop. She used to snap out of a GI slow down really quickly after a dose of critical care or an IV. This time she isn’t responding as positively.
  
  So I’m not sure what to do from now to Friday (new vet) to help her other than water.
  
  Also, I read so many things about moving rabbits off alfafa and I tried EVERYTHING. We wet the hay a little, we mixed all the hay (including alfafa) together, I sprinkled dried herbs and even some pellets amongst the other hay to get to go to the piles of oats, timothy and botanical hay we left all over the area in various different piles. We hand fed her some oats too. Nothing works. By evening today, I think I may have to syringe feed her critical care. I’m so discouraged.
- 06/09/2022 at 9:24 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Yeah, I would get a second opinion. Water drinking is important, but is usually triggered by hay eating, so if a bun isn’t eating much, they won’t drink. And for poop to come out, food has to go in.
  
  Hydration is of course important but in a case this severe and long lasting I am suspicious that fluids alone will get her back to normal.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/09/2022 at 9:55 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Sigh I’m so lost. He literally told me that her stat shows a very healthy bunny so the reason why she is like that has to be something other than health. Dana is there a way I can post her latest two blood work so someone with more medical sense can help review these numbers too? We are seeing a new vet on Friday but I just want to do some homework now myself.
- 06/09/2022 at 12:21 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  If you take a picture you can definitely post it here! I won’t be able to interpret but some other members might.
  
  If you are having trouble uploading pictures directly, one way that’s been working for people is to add it to your profile (as though you are going to change your profile pic). Then the pic will stay in your media library and you can add it to your post that way.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
  - 06/10/2022 at 6:17 PM
    hophophop
    Participant
    55 posts
    I’ll scan the report and post later! Thanks!
- 06/09/2022 at 12:51 PM
  Wick & Fable
  Moderator
  5813 posts
  Any pictures (current poos; not past poos — set-up, diet, area…), imaging data, physiological values, etc. would be helpful. Indeed, we are not vets, but we can still make observations that may be valuable.
  
  If you are comfortable sharing your general location, perhaps the community can help with veterinary referrals as well.
  
  When medical challenges have been ongoing, I always find it very helpful to try to think of everything from a blank slate. I have been guilty in the past of overpathologizing things and therefore missing potentially simple solution or just being blinded by emotion/past hx to not consider other things. For example, there was a year-long period where Wick got molar grindings once a month, and the symptoms were usually his incisors becoming crooked and/or peeing everywhere. Looking back though, he probably didn’t need them that much at all…. some of his deviant peeing may have just been that he’s objectively bad at only using the litterbox. I just didn’t consider because at that point, Wick had so many other things going on with antibiotics, shots, ringworm, etc.. that a straight-forward interpretation/solution was the last thing on my radar. All to say, going “blank slate” may be helpful in this case. So what is objectively, observably concerning that you are noticing now (not in the past; just now), and what would improvement in those areas look like?
  
  I’ve mentioned in past posts regarding picky hay eating. Here are some links that could be worthwhile:
  
  “There are some ideas here: https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Hay#Encouraging_your_rabbit_to_eat_hay
  
  While odd to ask, a picture of your set-up, including how/where hay is offered would be helpful. Sometimes how you present hay can be very important: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rabbits/comments/tzl60n/care_importance_of_presentation_pt_2 “
  
  The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
  - 06/10/2022 at 6:34 PM
    hophophop
    Participant
    55 posts
    Wow that’s eye-opening! I didn’t think the way hay is presented will affect a bunny’s appetite so much! I have a little bin that I will use later tonight to try to stand some hay up!
    
    Today I cleared out her hay rack and put in new hay and she went for it. It’s by the poop tray with her water bowl. I noticed that she likes to have a few licks of water after she eats her cecotropes. She went after the hay rack and I think she drank quite a bit of water from the bowl. I did mix alfafa hay with the other hay and the picture shows that she has left the timothy on the right untouched but attacked the oat hay. The hay in the middle is barely touched too but at least she ate all the alfafa on top of it, those were botanical hay.
    
    I also placed a glass bowl of water on the floor by the two mats on which I started placing hay in March when she became ill. I used to mixed up the hay on one mat but recently put oat on one, timothy and botanical on another. On both mats of hay, we will sprinkle alfafa on top and mixed some in amongst the hay. I noticed that this way she would eat timothy (though the experiment with the hay rack today was not successful in getting her to eat timothy). I also notice today that the oat hay is not as popular with it’s on the floor vs on the hay rack. So I’m hoping that when I bunch it up vertically in a bin she’ll go for it even more.
    
    The bowl there by the mat was also drank but today eventually she flipped it and spilled at least half of it. I put it there because in the past 3 months she has not really approached her poop tray much even if there were hay there. And her activity is mostly around the paper maze in the middle where she sleeps, and the rubber mat by the edge in the front where it is closest to us and furthest from the windows. She would still go to poop around the tray but recently she likes to poop (not pee) on the straw mat in front of the tray, between the tray and the maze. Sometimes she would lay down there too during the evening when she wants some private time away from us but no in her maze.
    
    The box by the front of the picture is a box full or bedding and some shredded paper which she used to like to go in to dig. We usually put hay cube, her dinner pellets and a hay cookie inside hidden between the bedding so she’ll have to find it. We have not put it in for weeks and on Wed after she returned from the vet and started munching, we put it back with very few pellets and she seemed to have dug them all up. So today I put it back in with more pellets and a salt lick and we’ll see if she would be more interested to drink after that.
    
    The set up is pretty much the same for the past 3 months but only today that she started eating from the rack again. I think liquid is key to her interest to eat. According to the vet, today she will have to rely on drinking on her own as the effect of the IV would have gone by now. I measured her water bowl from last night to right now and it is close to 4cc which is a huge improvement!
    
    Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated! I’m just so happy that she eats today. I hope this is the end of the tunnel!
    
    I’ll post the reports later! Thanks again everyone!
    
    P.S. Wick is so adorable I’m glad you figured out how eating can be easier for Wick! That’s really impressive!
    
    <video controls=”controls” width=”300″ height=”150″>
    <source src=”https://binkybunny.com/members/605233143c67fc1e/photos/” /></video>
  - 06/10/2022 at 9:58 PM
    hophophop
    Participant
    55 posts
    In case the image didn’t load, I’m trying again here…
- 06/10/2022 at 9:58 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Here are the images of her June 8 blood lab work
  
  I’ll post her earlier blood work result separately…
- 06/10/2022 at 10:01 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Here is her June 8 dental xray
- 06/13/2022 at 7:28 AM
  Bam
  Moderator
  16965 posts
  Here is a website that explains a bit about various rabbit lab tests: https://dontdumprabbits.org/resources/interpreting-lab-test-results-on-rabbits/
  
  Dehydration seems like it could explsin some of the findings, but I dont know if its reasonable to think that dehydration could be the root cause of this whole thing.
  
  The elevated blood calcium could be due to the alfalfa and kale. I had an older bun that had high blood calcium, my vet strongly adviced me to cut out all high calcium vegs, like kale and other dark green greens. Rabbits absorb all dietary calcium, contrary to most other mammals. They then eliminate the excess in the urine. If blood calcium gets too high, calcium can deposit inside blood vessels and inner organs, so it’s good if you can decrease calcium intake.
  
  I m not good at bun x rays, but the teeth look nicely aligned to me. I cant say if the points on the lower jaw teeth esp on the 2nd pic are spurs or normal ☹
- 06/14/2022 at 5:20 PM
  LBJ10
  Moderator
  17026 posts
  The lab results also show low hemoglobin and certain white blood cells.
  
  I don’t see anything obvious on the x-rays.
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