How do I know if I'm causing more stress

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 18sd replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 2 months ago by hophophop.

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- 03/30/2022 at 10:13 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Hi all, I’m a little lost as to what to do next with my very stubborn and sensitive bunny.
  
  She is a rescue and we don’t know exactly how old she is. But the vet said she looks pretty young “inside” when he spayed her.
  
  She has been prone to shutting down. Any stress or change of season (i.e., change of hay quality) will trigger some sort of shut down. But we have been lucky that she bounces back, probably due to her youth.
  
  This time it was weird. It started off with the change of oat hay (her main diet, yes it’s not ideal but she is really fussy). And then we took her to the vet for a quick nail trim and she slowly shuts down. In about a week or so, she went from eating very few hay but produce proper healthy poop, to not eating her pellets properly, not drinking enough water, and then total rejection of hay (except alfafa) and then terrible poop. We took her back to the vet, did blood work again, X-ray and filing down her teeth which cause some redness to her tongue. Her liver number was elevated but it already came down from her first blood work about half a year ago. So we went home thinking that was it.
  
  We were prescribed Meloxicam and told to give her 1.4ml once daily for 3 days. She hates syringes and is a little fighter. So we gave her meds with a piece of banana and it worked for 2 days. Day 3 today and she totally shut down. All kinds of herbs (cilantro, parsley, mint), veggies (romaine or kale) were rejected, no pellets, no water, no hay. We gave her a heating pad and she looked like she was in pain (constantly shifting position). So we finally force fed (me holding her tight and my husband forcing the syringe on her) and after a very stressful 15 mins she had her meloxicam and first dose of simethicone finally. Then an hour or so later after that, she went cold to the touch (and started not sitting with her heating pad), and refused to be rubbed. No poop, and continue to refuse eating. I don’t want to do another force feeding (she hates critical care, even the apple banana flavor) to stress her out.
  
  I think I need to bring her back to the vet and maybe ask for cisapride and Pepcid or something else. And have them force feed her for the day because she does not struggle so much with them. But I feel like the whole thing exploded because I brought her to the vet and it was pretty stressful usually to her. What should I do?
  
  This is my 4th rabbit in 20 years and I have dealt with stomach stasis so many times before. But this stubborn and really sensitive bunny is making me question everything I’m doing. Please help!
- 03/31/2022 at 2:52 AM
  Bam
  Moderator
  17001 posts
  In rabbits +1 year old, fat starts to build up around the uterus, so your vet’s assesment makes sense.
  
  Elevated liver values are a common find in rabbits with GI stasis. It’s fully reversible if treated in time, so it doesnt mean there is actually sth wrong with the liver, it’s just temporarily overwhelmed.
  
  I give my bun a variety of hays, oat hay is one of them. Oat hay has good fiber just like any hay. If a rabbit gets fat it’s as a rule not about the hay but about whatever else the bun gets. That said, oat hay varies in nutritional content (and obviously taste) depending on when in the season it’s been harvested, so it makes sense that your bun could dislike one batch and love another.
  
  A dental problem could give all the symptoms you describe, even the smallest molar spurs can make a rabbit stop eating.
  
  I think you should discuss with your vet whether you should take her in or if they could just prescribe you the meds you need. Pepcid is OTC but you’ll want the proper dosage. Cicapride and reglan are good motility drugs.
  
  Did her tummy problems start before or after her spay?
- 03/31/2022 at 7:57 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Thank you Barn for getting back to me so quickly! It has been a stressful few days and very bad night last night.
  
  We got her after a rescuer found her on the side of a walking trail. And we took her to the vet pretty quickly after. Before that, the foster family said that she ate like a champ. She had a major shut down after the surgery and we had to take her back for more meds and treatment. Then she got better. After that, she ate like a queen and loves oat, but could eat timothy ok too if it’s stalky.
  
  As she is a little picky with her hay, we gave her unlimited access and variety (timothy, oat, rye, and occasionally some alfafa). And we gave her romaine and usually one kind of herb at night with about 1/8 cup of pellet.
  
  Only until the last week or so that she started having issues. The problem is she hates syringe so much she would fight to death with us before a syringe can be near her. It’s easier to feed meds that is just a small amount and a small syringe. I don’t know how I could force feed her critical care. It seems like she associates the smell of critical care with the vet’s office too. I could try switching out the flavor to anise to see if she would like it better but right now she would not touch anything with the smell of cc on it.
  
  So this morning I brought her into the vet and they said that she is in full blown stasis right now. So it was a good decision despite that I was worried about the stress. Besides Meloxicam and Cisapride/reglan, is there anything else I should ask the vet for to help her through this phase?
  
  Thanks!
- 03/31/2022 at 2:38 PM
  Bam
  Moderator
  17001 posts
  I’m sorry you had to take her on, but Im so glad you did.
  
  Reglan and cisapride work on different parts of the gut, and those two drugs can be combined.
  
  Pepcid is good for ulcer-prevention. It’s important when you give meloxicam because meloxicam can be hard on the stomach lining.
  
  The vets will probably give sub q fluids with vitamin b.
  
  Are these the same vets that did the spay?
- 04/01/2022 at 5:53 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Yes they are. They have put her on IV yesterday with pain meds inside. They gave her cisapride and simethicone by mouth, and syringe fed her critical care a few times yesterday as she is not interested in hay or the critical care on a plate. I don’t know if they have given her pepcid or vit b.
  
  This is the same vet that did the spay. Do you think maybe the spaying caused her GI weakness? She did struggle after the surgery but after she bounced back she seemed pretty healthy.
  
  I didn’t like them all that much to begin with but they are the most experienced with rabbits in my area. The next set of the docs are either 45mins away by car, or 1.5 hours by train+subway (prob just as long by car with traffic). At least the technician there are very careful and attentive, and I like one of them very much (I have her email as well so I can contact her whenever). Last night they kept her at the clinic to keep the IV on and fed her critical care until late. They were not able to board my bunny girl before this one when she was sick. So that’s new and hopefully it saves my dear girl this time.
  
  I’ll definitely ask about pepcid and reglan as well later when I talk to them. Thanks!
- 04/01/2022 at 6:47 AM
  Bam
  Moderator
  17001 posts
  In rare cases, a spay can result in intestinal adherenses, meaning the intestines start to stick together in places they shouldn’t.. This is mostly a problem when the doe is so young that the vet hss to poke around to find the ovaries and uterus for removal. It’s.great that these are the same vets, because modern day vets are aware of this possible complication. It’s rare nowadays, because vets avoid touching the intestines during a spay. If there is a problem it’s not rarely surgicslly reversible.
  
  The vets might be giving her pepcid or a drug called sucralfate. Sucralfate creates a protective barrier between the stomach mucosa and the stomach content. Its given 1 hour prior to other meds It is a drug for humans, but then again most drugs used in rabbits are originally human drugs. Meloxicam, metoclopramide, pepcid and sucralfate are all human meds that have been in use for a long time.
  
  It’s great that she’s being given IV fluids. It’s sth we ordinary bun owners cant do at home.
- 04/02/2022 at 5:39 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Hi Barn,
  
  Just want to give an update – Kotton was kept at the vet for 2 days and finally started pooping normal. She is still given fluids today but as she chewed through the iv tubes thrice in the 1st day, they have to give her SQ fluids. After 2 days there she started eating on her own and then this morning she pooped pretty round normal poop! (Imagine being excited about bunny poop lol)
  
  The technician decided to take her home to continue with meds as she does not struggle with her. We are hoping that by Monday when she’s back she will be in a good place that meds will be a nice-to-have instead of a must-have. I hope this is it and we are lucky that she bounces back so quickly compared to some bunnies on the forum. They still think it was her teeth that bothered her. I’ll keep a close look at her and how she eats to make sure she does not have more potential GI problems from the spaying.
  
  Thanks a lot for the feedbacks and suggestions!
- 04/03/2022 at 8:04 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9064 posts
  That’s a really tough situation!
  
  It sounds like you are on the right track though! Dental issues can certainly cause ongoing GI issues.
  
  I wanted to mention that Sherwood also makes a recovery food that half of my buns prefer to critical care (especially if I mix some banana into it). If I mix it up as more of a dough than a liquid they love it. If she hates CC it might be worth a shot!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 04/03/2022 at 11:16 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Thanks Dana! I’ll try it when she comes home. I think sometimes it’s the texture and the messiness that makes the bunnies hate CC.
  
  I remember one of my bunnies who also didn’t like CC when she was sick loves it when she was not lol. Sometimes I feel like I should probably train Kotton to eat something she may have to eat when she is sick haha…
- 04/03/2022 at 4:49 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9064 posts
  I have also had buns that will eat CC or other recovery food when they are fine, but not when ill, which I suppose makes sense if they are refusing all food! Some people will also make critical care “cookies” that some buns like.
  
  I do know someone who clicker trained her buns to readily eat from a syringe so that when they were sick it would be an automatic behavior. Might be something to try! She started by just putting some banana mush in the syringe so it became associated with a yummy treat. 🙂
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 04/04/2022 at 1:46 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Dana, the clicker training is brilliant! I have never used a clicker before for training. I’ll have to look into it!
  
  BTW, a little silver lining from this illness we just went through is that the technician who took Kotton home to nurse had sent her bunny home with us (due to space limitation at her home). The bunny we kept for two days is a big New Zealand White and it’s really adorable and friendly. We have never had a big size bunny before so it was all brand new to us. The technician says the big one is up for adoption and we are wondering if any of you have experience pairing a large and small size bunny before. We have only paired bunnies of similar size. This big one and our little Hotot are both 1 year old it seems. They were both possibly last year’s easter bunnies let go by their owner on a walking trail.
  
  I’ll keep you all posted later when the two of them meet up for a first date. I hope they like each other and we get to keep the big white boy.
  
  Deb
- 04/05/2022 at 7:06 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  So Kotton has not been doing good after she returned home. Before she came home this past weekend, she was given SQ fluid everyday, and on Sunday she was taken off Meloxicam and was only on Cisapride. She started eating on her own both hay and pellets and had good poop so we took her home on Monday.
  
  Yesterday she was eating hay ok, slow with pellet but we noticed that she was not drinking water. So we gave her lettuce to supplement just in case. We were told that with SQ fluid she may not feel as much need to drink. Her poop got progressively smaller and fewer over the day, and by evening I gave her cisapride (tricked her into taking it with a drop of honey). This morning I noticed that she didn’t eat much hay, so another tricked intake of cisapride and I drizzled Simenthicone on lettuce leaves and she took one leaf full of it. She has been nibbling on alfafa bits on the floor and ignoring the oat and timothy on the floor. So I balled up some CC dough and covered it with alfafa in the hope that she would eat it but she ignored it and went for the hay on the hay rack instead of the hay near the ball of CC on the floor lol (She really does not like CC isn’t it?!) Fingers crossed that she will drink more water later and poop normal again.
  
  Why do bunnies eat but not drink?! I don’t get it. She has never had issues drinking before this episode. Always a big drinker in fact. Nothing has changed there (same bowl, same setup, same water).
  
  Sigh…
- 04/05/2022 at 9:02 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9064 posts
  Hmmm, if she’s still getting cisapride then she should prob still get meloxicam, because the cisapride can cause painful cramping. Gut slowdown in general is painful, so pain management is important.
  
  If she’s eating hay, that’s great, even if it’s small amounts. If you have fresh grass available, that can also be good for enticing a bun to eat (and it’s great because it’s fiber and water). If she isn’t eating a lot of hay, she may not be triggered to drink, as usually buns drink after eating.
  
  With regards to your question about bonding a big bun with a small bun, bunny size doesn’t matter at all! It’s really more about bunnies personalities, so if they seem to like each other then it could be a good match.
  
  However, it is important to wait till both buns are healthy for any dates or bonding. I also just noticed that your bun is a hotot… chronic GI issues can be due to a genetic condition known as megacolon that is sometimes seen in buns with hotot markings. Some of these buns do pretty well with daily cisapride, as well as being free-fed. How is your bun’s weight? Does she seem to be keeping her muscle mass or does she feel boney?
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 04/05/2022 at 9:45 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Dana, I didn’t know about Hotot’s GI problem! I just emailed the vet and will give them a call tomorrow to ask. Just googled it and yes, she did lose some muscle tone after she came here. And for a rabbit this young eating oat hay all the time, she does seem to have a weaker GI than my other bunnies. What is free-fed? I also read that for bunnies with megacolon they should eat more pellets and greens. That’s quite against what I have always told (hay-led instead).
  
  I took her back for another SQ fluid to get things going. And they pushed a small syringe of cc into her. It took her a few hours to recover and digest everything. Finally at about 9-10pm she seems to be able to eat a lot more hay. Just laid down some CC on a plate with banana mushed, hopefully she’ll warm up to it. I don’t want to stress her and stuff her full with CC right now since she is eating hay. Maybe in the morning. Fingers crossed she’ll keep eating tonight.
- 04/06/2022 at 7:23 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9064 posts
  It’s not in all hotots, but it’s a condition linked to the “charlie” markings. “Free-fed” refers to being fed unlimited pellets, to help compensate for the weight loss that can occur. In megacolon rabbits the cecum doesn’t function properly, so they have trouble absorbing nutrients.
  
  This site has a ton of helpful info, that also might help you see if this is what could be going on with your bun, and has some things you can share with your vet: https://vgr1.com/megacolon/
  
  One thing about megacolon buns is that they rarely have “normal” poop, even when not in stasis. So if your bun’s poops look pretty good otherwise, then it isn’t likely to be megacolon.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 04/08/2022 at 10:39 AM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Hi Dana/Barn,
  
  Having written for a little bit as Kotton is recovering and needs a lot of nudging and little stimulation throughout the day to get her to eat. We took Cisapride off for a day and she didn’t eat much. So we are back on twice a day (morning and evening) with Simethicone, and twice daily two teaspoons of dry critical care mixed with water. She has been able to keep up some hay nibbling throughout the day with some herbs and a leaf of Kale morning and late evening. And drink 1/4 inch of water with some weird shaped dry poop. I’m hoping she could get off cisapride soon as I read from another post that their guts could start to rely on cisapride?
  
  So the vet suggested Mirataz to stimulate her appetite. Do you have any experience with it? Anything to be mindful of?
  
  About megacolon, right now the vet doesn’t think it is a concern. We need to wait for her to get better and monitor her poop to see if they are normal. I remember hers are sometimes oval but not sure if that’s just because she takes oat hay almost 90% of the time.
  
  Thanks again for reading and all your advices!
  
  Deb
- 04/08/2022 at 10:47 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9064 posts
  I’m not familiar with Mirataz. Im glad she’s nibbling hay!
  
  Sometimes a relatively long course of motility meds is needed to get a bun’s gut fully back “online”. I wouldn’t worry about cisapride dependency yet, but when you do stop you can taper off gradually. As I said before, some buns with chronic issues or megacolon end up getting cisapride daily indefinitely, but I agree that it’s probably premature to jump to that just yet. I would definitely continue the supportive care you are giving (critical care, simethicone, etc.). Recovering from GI issues can often be very slow, “like trying to jump start a train”, as I’ve read somewhere.
  
  Oat hay wouldn’t cause oval poops. An occasional oval poop can be due to molting or slight GI slowing, but if it’s frequent it’s worth nothing to the vet.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 04/10/2022 at 3:30 AM
  Bam
  Moderator
  17001 posts
  I’m not familiar with Mirataz either. I found a small study on 9 rabbits who were given mirtazepine for 2 days. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S155750632100104X.
  
  9 rabbits are of course very few rabbits and 2 days are just 2 days. It increased fecal output but didn’t seem to significantly increase appetite. It seems to be in use for cats though, to increase appetite and body weight.
  
  As Dana says, Cisapride can be tapered out, allowing the body to gradually restore it’s own capacity for peristalsis, much like when you taper out corticosteroids in humans. I’d not worry about cisapride dependency just yet. I had a dental bun who was on 3 times daily Reglan (metoclopramide, similar action) for 5 weeks, then we stopped cold turkey and it was fine. (I consulted with his vet of course, I wanted to taper out but she, who is very rabbit savvy, told me I could just stop, so I did that).
  
  Has she had any dental procedure? (I’m sorry if I’m just missing it in your posts).
- 04/10/2022 at 12:55 PM
  hophophop
  Participant
  55 posts
  Hi Barn and Dana,
  
  Yes Kotton got her teeth filed down and the vet reviewed her teeth and said that they are fine (no cracks).
  
  Mirataz seemed to have helped her a lot. The first night we gave her (1.5 inch of gel-cream rubbed on her ears where there is no fur), she had a really good night of eating and drinking with lots of poop. The second day she was still ok in the morning so we did not give her cisapride and at evening I applied Mirataz again and she went for the hay and water again! Today she has been quiet. We finally moved her hay from the floor back to the hay rack and she needs to be reminded to go to the rack to eat from time to time. I think I’ll use it for one more night as the shape of her poop is still off and today she has been quiet and did not eat much during the day.
  
  We also have not re-introduce Timothy yet. She’s been eating oat and alfafa this whole time. Alfafa being the hay of preference. We’ll start putting out Timothy and removing alfafa if she eats well tonight.
  
  Deb
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