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FORUM HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Thoughts on lethargy

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    • GlennTheLionhead
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        Hello!

        As some of you may know I have recently adopted a rescue lion head Bella, 4yr old spayed female and we are currently bonding her with my OG lionhead Glenn.

        I am starting to become a little worried about her lack of exercise.

        For a quick bit of background, the rescue said they think she was kept her whole life in a hutch without a pen because she doesn’t move around a lot and is shy. The rescue spayed her so she was un-spay for 4 years of her life. She was a little thin and petite when she came to us but they assured us she has no known illnesses and was checked by a vet.

        She eats and drinks very well and poops well, she’s very sweet and really enjoys a cuddle, but when it comes to her alternate free roam time she will run out into the lounge once, look around for about 20 seconds and then run back to her pen and lay down for the rest of her time slot, she also doesn’t run around her pen much. She does interact with toys though.

        It’s been 3 months now nearly, so plenty of time to get used to her surroundings.. She is a bit blind though. Its just starting to feel like it’s been too long for her to not exercise due to past trauma or shyness…. She’s also a little bony still despite eating a proper diet. I’m starting to become concerned there’s something more going on and considering calling the vet for an appointment tomorrow.

        What are yours guys thoughts on this? Can it be normal for a rescue to not exercise at all because of the past? If so how can I encourage her to exercise more?

        Thanks


      • Wick & Fable
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          A vet visit where you express your concerns and observations is always good — it’s very possible for an underlying condition to be causing inability to gain/maintain healthy weight and lethargy. I will leave diagnostic interpretations to the professionals!

          Medical illness aside, some rabbits are a bit lazier than others, and there are anecdotal patterns where it seems to be related at times how they may have been kept earlier in life, though not conclusive at all. I find moving my butt to be active tends to increase activity routinely. Create food puzzles, spontaneously get a toy out and waggle it in front of their faces to get them to engage with it (outside their sleep time obviously!) … Sort of like giving a child an empty room, there’s not really much to do if it’s not obvious or placed in front of them. So, if you are concerned, try initiating more engagement activities regularly.

          The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


        • DanaNM
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            What time of day is does she get her roaming time? I noticed Bonnie seems really inactive during the day, and at first I attributed it to her also being in the shelter for a long time and not being used to running around. Then I started letting her out overnight, and found her zooming around the room at 4 am!

            All of that said, I can imagine blindness impacting things, and I don’t think a vet visit to rule out other issues is a bad idea at all, especially given her low weight. Did they note any cancer when they spayed her?

            . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


          • GlennTheLionhead
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              Wick – what a fantastic idea about the puzzles, perhaps she’s more of an enrichment bun than an energetic bun. My other is crazy and will entertain himself more by running all over the furniture lol but perhaps she more chill and would prefer engagement type exercise.

              Dana – that’s a good shout! Maybe she’s a night owl, come to think of it I do hear her chewing on toys at about 4am! They didn’t really say about any cancers because she was spay before I enquired about adopting her and at the time I didn’t realise quite how common cancer is in females age 4 and above…. Though I would have thought the rescue would share that info if that was the case.

              I have booked her into the vet to check everything is okay and they have managed to squeeze me in just before the Christmas break so she is being seen at 5 (UK time) today. I’m getting more and more of a looming feeling that something isn’t right, which probably means that it’s not! Also me and my partner noticed her limping a little on her back paw last night and today when trying to get her to engage with exercise, so definitely good she’s seeing the vet. Although for the life of me I can’t think what she would have injured it on… My best guess is Glenn was a little rough when mounting during a bonding session maybe? Her pen has a flat floored surface with rubber matting and blankets so it’s a head scratcher! I do wonder if it’s a symptom of arthritis or something.


            • GlennTheLionhead
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                *Bellas health issue*

                Hi I couldn’t figure out how to re name this post as its kind of turning into something else.

                I took Bella to the vet on the 23rd and they have given me antibiotics to treat her at best case scenario with the possibility of ultrasounds etc if she doesn’t improve.

                Bella is doing okay in general, funnily she’s a bit more active in the evenings now. She has reduced her hay consumption a little but it still eating pellets and veg etc without issues, we have upped her pellets a little to help prevent stasis from eating less hay. She seems to be doing fine for now but is maybe just eating a little less hay in reaction to the antibiotics, is this normal? The vet said the antibiotic was particularly bad tasting so maybe it’s making her feel a little bad. Her poops are also a little smaller than usual I guess from less hay. My concern today is making sure she is drinking enough.

                Is it safe to feed her water with a syringe after her antibiotics? If so how do I do this safely and what is a safe amount to give?

                My rabbit savvy vet is closed over Christmas and reopen tomorrow so I will also ask them too but in the meantime I thought I would ask here.

                I have cared for rabbit’s in stasis before but I have never cared for a rabbit with a uti or possible chronic issue so any tips/advice is welcomed.

                Thanks!


              • DanaNM
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                  It’s perfectly fine to syringe some fluids and would probably help. I like to use the small 1 mL syringes to give fluids. I think you could start with around 5 mL and see how she responds to that. I usually give mine around 6 mL at a time if I suspect they are dehydrated, but use the 1 mL syringes, they seem to swallow them more easily that way.

                  I think rather than increase pellets (which would further reduce hay consumption), it would be better to supplement her with some critical care if you have it. You can also give her a bit of extra salad to boost her hydration.

                  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                • GlennTheLionhead
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                    Okay great! I syringed a couple ml of water after her medication as to not stress her by constant handling. When you say you start with 6 ml, how much would be too much in day? I’ve always used bowls so never really measured how much they drink.

                    I am going to try get more critical care off the vets as I don’t have any fresh stuff left at home… I know you can make it from pellets but I guess that would be pointless to mash pellets when she’s eating them willingly so I guess real critical care might be better.

                    Another thought, could I temporarily increase her forage I. e dried leaves as I kind of substitute for her eating less hay during her treatment?


                  • DanaNM
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                      I think offering dried leaves (that she’s used to having) sounds like a nice supplement. Some fragrant herbs in her hay might also entice her to eat a bit more.

                      In terms of fluids per day, I’m not too sure about that. But when I’ve been instructed to syringe feed, my vet usually has me do 12 mL three times per day. So I think doing 6 mL of fluids 3 times per day should be safe. A couple mL after her medication definitely wouldn’t hurt her.

                      . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                    • Wick & Fable
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                        You can find parameters around normal drinking amount here! https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Diet

                        The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


                      • GlennTheLionhead
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                          Thanks both for the info on water! Very useful and that rabbit wiki was useful too! I have been syringing her water the last two days, much of it she has just been dribbling out so I tried the spiking the water with a touch of apple juice method but didn’t really help.

                          She’s at the vets today going for an ultrasound so I am just anxiously waiting to hear that she woken up okay from the anesthetic! I ‘m sure all bunny parents go through this nervousness qwhen taking their fluffs in for a procedure.


                        • Wick & Fable
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                            The nervousness is very real…. yes! Hoping to hear good news soon!

                            The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


                          • GlennTheLionhead
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                              Good news is she’s woken up okay and is back at home very sleepy but warm and nibbling here and there.

                              Unfortunately they couldn’t find anything in the ultrasound but the vets are pretty positive that there’s something wrong with her urinary tract, since noticing the lethargy I’ve been watching her like a hawk and discovered nothing or very little comes out when she wees so we’re looking a lot into that at the moment. They said if there’s still no improvement after 10 more days they will refer her to an exotics specialist as she may need a complex procedure of surgery to identify any possible scaring from her spay. The vets shes been seeing is certified in small animal care but I’m tempted to get a second opinion before putting her through invasive surgery.

                              Poor girl! I guess this is more of an update post but I do wonder if anyone has been through a similar experience? Would a uti usually clear up after a week of antibiotics or an it be common for improvement to take longer than this to see?

                              Rabbit specialist are so few and far between where I am so any thoughts based on similar experiences are appriciated!


                            • GlennTheLionhead
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                                So after 2.5 days of syringe feeding her water and her dribbling it out I have tried giving her wet veg which works, very wet DIY critical care (which she eats but she is eating on her own so this isn’t the preferred method for hydration). I tried spiking her water with juice but that didn’t work!

                                I have been giving her a slice of cucumber a day and it occurred to me…. Her favourite treat is banana so… Banana and cucumber smoothie!

                                So with 2 slices of banana, 2 slices of cucumber and appox 3 table spoons of water I blended her a smoothie and seperated it into two portions (I figured a slice of banana and a slice of cucumber a day should be suitable). I gave one portion which was somewhere between 5-10ml of smoothie, perhaps you would call it thick juice as its pretty runny. I had to syringe the first 2 mls to give her a taste for it, and she actually swallowed it! And 3 hours later she has finally started drinking the rest of the portion I left out for her on her own wooohoooo!

                                She is doing fine otherwise but has stopped drinking on her own. The vets she was seeing just told me to soak her veggies but I don’t feel like that is enough to keep her hydrated… I am waiting for a second opinion vet appointment but that’s not until Tuesday so I have had to be creative.

                                She is still eating, popping, grooming and peeing little bits but has just refused to drink since her ultrasound, not sure if it’s related to her going under anesthetic.

                                Feeling very much like a bunny nurse at the moment!


                              • DanaNM
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                                  A cucumber banana smoothie is a great idea!

                                  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                • GlennTheLionhead
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                                    Okay so I could just be being a paranoid bunny mumma right now but is it normal for rabbits legs to splay out like this? We are just having an on the floor snuggle and I’m giving her lots of pets, she’s not forced to be here and assumed the position herself so her leg isn’t like that because I’ve plonked her there, it’s almost like she can’t keep it in place…. maybe I am going bunny crazy but her hind leg limp has gotten much worse despite the vet saying she was fine on two occasions. I am starting to wonder if it’s related.


                                  • DanaNM
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                                      So, Bun Jovi has always done this with one of his front legs since I’ve had him (I got him when he was 9), and always when he’s getting grooms or pets.

                                      If she’s having hind leg weakness too I wonder if she could have some arthritis? I know BJ does have some arthritis, but that’s to be expected at his age.

                                      Has she been on any pain management?

                                      . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                    • GlennTheLionhead
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                                        Phew okay that’s good to know that it may be relatively normal for buns to do. I was panicking that she might be developing some kind of paralysis but that might be a bit on the extreme side to think….

                                        I have been wondering that too about the arthritis! But this is the first time I’m caring for aging bunnies, both 5 yrs old this year so I’m quite new to all the age related things that may come.

                                        She has not been on pain meds yet no. I wonder if the spaying of the front leg combine with the hind limp and lethargy points more to arthritis rather than a hind leg injury.

                                        I’m due to call the vets for an update tomorrow, so I will push the limp and perhaps mention the front leg weakness.


                                      • DanaNM
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                                          Given all that’s been going on with her, I think it may be worth seeing if pain management helps in general. A lot of older buns get daily metacam to help with arthritis.

                                          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                        • GlennTheLionhead
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                                            That’s a good idea! Thanks! Maybe pain meds could be a good step before putting her through more procedures or anesthetic again.

                                            I do have some metacam at home actually. I will suggest pain meds to the vet tomorrow and see what he says.


                                          • GlennTheLionhead
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                                              Hey!

                                              Just looking for some opinions now.

                                              I finally found an exotics vet that’s a 20 minute drive from from me because the other vet was taking a little while to get back to me about the pain relief. The appointment with the exotics vet is later today and its a double appointment as they said they wanted to really get to know the situation.

                                              This morning my normal vet which I’ve now found out isn’t actually as rabbit savvy like I thought, called back up and said yes to trialing her with pain meds….

                                              If it was you would you cancel the exotics vet and pic the pains meds up from the other vet and trial her on those to save her anymore stress of driving her places.

                                              …or would you just go to the exotics vet anyway for peice of mind and a second opinion?

                                              I understand ultimately that the decision is mine but I am unsure and thoughts of what others might do in the situation could help.

                                              Thanks!

                                               


                                            • Susanne
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                                                I like the idea of a second opinion. I plan to take my 2 to a different vet soon (just to get established as patients before they need anything) because I believe she is more knowledgeable about rabbits.


                                              • GlennTheLionhead
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                                                  That’s a good point Susanne! Thank you for your thoughts on that!

                                                  I did take her for the appointment in the end and left feeling much more at ease and informed on all the possible reasons for her symptoms so it was definitely worth it! She’s on pain meds now and they are suspecting arthritis or possible spondylosis. Fingers crossed she’ll be feeling better soon 🙂

                                                  P.s my last post didn’t appear as normal it was actually put under ‘awaiting moderation’ I was just wondering why that might be just so I know for future. Thanks 🙂


                                                • Susanne
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                                                    I’m glad you ended up feeling better with the new vet! Sending good vibes that she will feel better soon.


                                                  • GlennTheLionhead
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                                                      *Update*

                                                      So Bella has been on 0.32 of loxicom daily (she’s only about 1.7kg so I think it’s a fair dose). It is the 4th day today and WOW! What an improvement, she’s almost a different bun, she’s moving much more, engaging with toys and one big difference is she’s actually using all of her pen, before she would stay localised to a small area but now we find her flopping in all different places. She can actually run properly too and she’s pretty fast no longer wadling.

                                                      I need to report back to the new vet next week and she hasn’t been officially diagnosed because I didn’t want to subject her to anesthetic so soon after the last time but things are looking positive. Its possible she will have to remain on the treatment and the vet did explain the risk of kidney problems in future due to daily pain meds but aside from that it’s wonderful to see her looking so well!


                                                    • Azerane
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                                                        I’m glad to hear that Bella is feeling better on the medication. If you’re going to daily pain medication, it’s probably worth doing 6 monthly blood checks on the kidneys just to track how they cope. There are other options for pain medication, but they tend to opioids and they can make buns a little zonked out, and I’m not sure how suitable they are long term either. But it’s an option if you start seeing problems with the kidneys.

                                                        My rabbit Luna can’t have meloxicam because of her kidneys so she gets Gabapentin, but she only needs it when she’s ill.


                                                      • GlennTheLionhead
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                                                          Thanks for the reply Azerane!

                                                          Yes I am a little worried about how her kidneys will get on with daily meds. Unfortunately without meds she would literally barely move and limp a lot, she also did not flop much and now usually in the evening after her dose of loxicom she will spend her time playing or flopped so it does definitely seem like some kind of daily precaution or long term treatment will give her the best quality of life.

                                                          I have heard there are some possible therapies such as acupuncture that may work for rabbits with chronic skeletal pain.

                                                          I do agree that I may need to get creative with treatment though to protect her kidneys or work out cycles where she can manage with less meds such as summer months.

                                                          Interesting about Luna! and that is a shame about her kidneys. It’s good to know there are possibly alternative meds such as Gabapentin available!


                                                        • DanaNM
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                                                            I’m so happy to hear she’s responding well and that you got a second opinion! I agree that dose sounds fine for  a “maintenance” dose.

                                                            If you’re going to look into alternative therapies, you might also look into chiropractic, there are some animal chiro’s that have worked with rabbits.

                                                            You might also try supplementing her with Myristol. It’s a joint supplement they originally formulated for horses but there is a rabbit version too. I was giving it to Bertha for a little while and I do think it helped her.

                                                            . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                          • GlennTheLionhead
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                                                              Thank you!

                                                              That’s really helpful to know! The specialist has said to pursue with the pain medication for one month and then slowly take her off of it and see how she goes. My thinking is he’s ruling out other conditions that would be treated the same way since I was hesitant to have her anesthetised after the last time.

                                                              I have had a look for myristol but I cant seem to find anywhere that sells it (I’m UK based) I have seen some good reviews on the oxbow joint supplement though so I may give those a try.


                                                            • Bam
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                                                                I’m glad she’s responding so well to the meloxicam! When my old dog had arthritis pain, she was referred to a dog physotherapist for cold laser treatment (and water treadmill, but that’s obviously not suitable for rabbits). She was also on a daily NSAID (same type of med as meloxicam), so I couldn’t tell if the cold laser made any difference.


                                                              • DanaNM
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                                                                  I give Bun Jovi those oxbow joint support tabs and they seem to help? In any case, he loves them so it’s a nice treat.

                                                                  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                                • GlennTheLionhead
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                                                                    Thanks both for your thoughts on this!

                                                                    It’s great to hear of alternative therapies such as cold laser! I will keep this in mind as a possible treatment after the meds.

                                                                    And yes I thibk I will give the oxbow supplements a go as even with the pain meds she a lot better but still a little limpy now and again

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                                                                FORUM HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Thoughts on lethargy