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Forum BONDING Last resort before giving up on bond

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    • Sera
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        Hi everyone,

        I decided to look for help online after trouble with rabbit bonding. I have two males and a female (all neutered/spayed > 2 months ago), and one of the males just does not want to bond at all. He is extremely tense in every situation involving bonding. I’ve had all of them living in an ex-pen that I divided into two separate spaces; one for the male rabbit who won’t bond, and one for the other two rabbits, who appear to be bonded. We regularly swap their spaces/litterboxes/food/toys/etc.

        The males especially are having extreme difficulty, and we feel the female is a large part of the problem. We’ve taken the boys for separate bonding sessions in the bathtub, and also in an ex-pen in a separate room. They do okay in these bonding sessions, although the male that doesn’t want to bond is extremely tense the whole time.

        It’s where the female comes in that there is a problem. Last night, we decided to try both boys on the same side of their habitat since they’d done fairly well in the ex-pen together. The female was sleeping when we put them there, and they seemed fine until she woke up. When she woke up, she hopped over to the bars between them and one male started licking her through the bars. This launched a huge fight between the males, and blood was drawn on one of the rabbits.

        We’ve separated them once more, but tried putting the female in with the male who won’t bond to see what happens. She’s an extremely submissive rabbit that immediately starts grooming whichever male partner she is with, and neither of the males attack her. But the male who doesn’t want to bond is very tense still, so I’m keeping a close eye on them.

        Really not sure what to do — the dominant male keeps drawing blood on the male who won’t bond. We’ve tried everything we can think of — giving them both apples, spraying them with water when they start biting, reaching in there with gloves and gently but firmly pressing them both down to the ground, etc. I’m afraid we may have to either find another home for one of the males or have one of them always stay in the pen instead of be free roaming. Is it possible that we just can’t bond them?

        Here’s the template given in the sticky post, filled out as best I can:

        Spay/Neuter
        Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? yes
        If so, for how long (for each)? both males have been neutered since early March, and the female since late March
        If not, why not? N/A
        Are you aware of reproductive cancer risk in females? If not, please read about it here.

        Housing
        Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.). Please see above for detailed description

        Bonding background
        Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? tes
        How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? The female is extremely submissive and grooms both males. If they try to hump her, she immediately submits. She seems bonded to the rabbit we consider to be the dominant one out of all 3 of them, but the males are definitely not bonded.
        Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Yes; we did a lot of this before bonding them directly.
        If so, for how long? Since they were babies, they’ve been in the same general area, although we did end up moving the male who doesn’t want to bond out to free roam with us about a month before his neuter surgery. This is because the boys escaped their pens and fought pretty badly.
        Have you started sessions yet? Yes
        How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? About 1 month
        How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? Almost daily, and it depends on how well it’s going. Between 10 min and an hour; usually around 30 min.
        Have you tried any stressing techniques? Yes — bathtub bonding, putting them in a box and carrying them around, and putting them in a small enclosure and running the vacuum cleaner just outside of the enclosure. These have been mildly successful.


      • DanaNM
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          Trios can be very difficult, and not always possible (or maybe possible, but not worth the stress and risk). The simplest thing to do would be to settle with the pair that appears to be bonded, and keep the other male separate, but I’m sure you’ve already considered that!

          In this case, if the males are routinely drawing blood, then I would advise you to stop all sessions between them. If you do wish to bond them, they need a long break to calm down and forget the fighting. Fighting needs to be prevented in bonding sessions, and any fight serious enough to cause injury can cause the buns to hold grudges, making them very difficult to bond.

          The main thing I see is that you have been putting them together in non-neutral territory, and moved too quickly from areas where they were doing OK. They also have a history of fighting. One month is not very long, and with sessions of only 30 min to an hour, it just seems like the progression was very fast. It’s very important to establish positive behaviors in neutral territory and make sure those are “cemented” before moving to a less neutral location. This usually means spending several hours or an overnight in neutral space before moving to less neutral.

          Given the history of multiple and repeated fights between the boys, I personally would not attempt the trio. Or, take a very long break (at least 4-6 weeks), where they are completely separated and cannot see each other. I understand that housing multiple unbonded buns is complicated. What I’ve done in the past is set up two cube condos, and then I give the buns alternate free-roam time. Not sure if your buns are OK unsupervised, but I’ve done one bun overnight and the other during the day, and it’s worked pretty well. You can also divide up the space with x-pens to give free-roam time at the same time.

           

          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


        • Sera
          Participant
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            Thank you for the advice. I have definitely been considering that we may need to just always keep the boys separated. They seem to be fine living side by side; just not in the same living space. So we should be okay to have them living in ex-pens next to each other and just take them out to play separately. I was really hoping they could be friends, and they definitely have made some progress. The progress just seems to go out the window as soon as we introduce the female rabbit into the picture, though.

            Do you think we made a mistake in not including the female in the bonding sessions? I was just afraid she would get hurt, and neither male has ever tried to hurt her; she submitted to them both immediately. She is also very tiny compared to them; she’s 1.8 lbs to their 4 and 4.5 lbs. She’s very timid and just flattens herself like a pancake when they fight, so I didn’t want her to have to be a part of it. But maybe she should be, since I’m bonding all 3?


          • DanaNM
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              Some people recommend only working with all three together, but lots of people have success with working on the hardest pair first, so I don’t think that was a bad idea. If they do well with just the two of them and the female makes things harder, then I think working with all three would probably be the most effective going forward. Sometimes the more calm rabbit can keep everyone more calm. Also remember that there is no one perfect way to bond rabbits, and everyone makes mistakes. The important things are to prevent fighting and help them work out their dominance safely.

              One other recommendation, if you do decide to keep trying (and I do for sure recommend a break before resuming sessions), is to work with all three in a very large neutral space. I know lots of people recommend small spaces, but I have always had much better luck with very large spaces. Many members here on Binky Bunny also have had very good luck with large spaces. Margo DeMello of the San Diego HRS (who has bonded countless trios and groups) recommends using a space that’s at least as large as 3 x-pens linked up for trio bonding. The idea is that they can run and chase without it escalating to fighting, which helps them sort out their dominance more safely. They can also get away from each other more easily when they need to.

              . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


            • Sera
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                That is actually the first time I’ve heard the advice to use a large area rather than a small one. Since you mention it though, I actually think that might be worth trying with my bunnies. I think if the more tense, reluctant male were able to run away, the situation would deescalate more quickly. The reason I think that is every time the other male has drawn blood from him, he freaks out so much that suddenly he gains the ability to jump way higher than usual to get over the side of the cage. He actually jumped onto my husband’s shoulder before.

                They really don’t seem to hate each other, as odd as that sounds when they’ve drawn blood. They calmly lie next to each other when in their own pens, and when we’ve stressed them with the vacuum cleaner, they do huddle together for comfort. I’ve even seen the rabbit I believe will be the dominant one lick the other male to groom him. They just are overly wary around each other, and sometimes sudden movements seem to escalate the situation.

                Unfortunately, we live in a pretty small apartment, so a neutral space that large won’t be possible. But do you think if I let them out individually in a prepared space to play over the course of the 4-6 week break that I then can set them free in that space to bond when the break is over?


              • DanaNM
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                  Yeah, it’s interesting. Many rescues and rabbit welfare organizations now recommend larger spaces, but there are some popular blogs and youtube channels that say small spaces, so that seems to have taken hold. Small space bonding falls in the category of “flooding”, which was a type of behavioral therapy that was used a lot in dogs in the past, but is no longer seen as humane. The basic idea is that the animal becomes so overwhelmed by the stimuli, and that adrenalin and fear can only affect the body for so long and after that, they calm down. You can see how such an approach is stressful for an animal, especially an animal as susceptible to stress as a rabbit. In my mind, if a rabbit’s fight or flight response kicks in, and they have no where to flee to, they will fight. I also think the very act of one rabbit retreating from conflict is part of the dominance establishment, because one rabbit sees “oh, that other rabbit is running away from me, so they are prob not a threat”.

                  I think with their history, the space needs to be very neutral. So I wouldn’t use any space that they have been in before, or that is within sight or smell of their home turf. I used to live in a studio apartment and would go to a friend’s house for bonding sessions (she kindly let me use her garage). Do you have any friends that would allow you to camp in their kitchen or garage for some bonding sessions?

                  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                • Sera
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                    I actually didn’t even think about the garage. My apartment has a garage, so I could move my car out and use that. It gets pretty hot in there though, so I might have to bring a couple of fans since it’s getting warmer. My bunnies hate running on smooth surfaces, though, so I would probably have to bring a couple of old towels and blankets down and scatter them throughout. Do you think I should have multiple litter boxes, or try to make them use the same large one? What about multiple water and pellet bowls, or just one?

                    The male I think will be dominant tends to claim the resources in any space they have been in together though, by spreading out in the litter box on top of the hay. He does allow the other male to eat and drink from the pellet and water bowls without harassing him, but they get quite tense when the other male enters the litter box. He’s okay with the other male eating hay out of the side; it only gets tense when he hops in with the more dominant male.


                  • DanaNM
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                      The garage could be great, as long as it’s not too hot. Perhaps it would be best to do session at night or early morning when it’s cool?

                      The slippery floor could actually work to your advantage. Rabbits are usually less apt to fight when they can’t get good footing, so as long as the floor is clean I wouldn’t worry about putting down towels yet. For longer sessions I usually put down pee-pads to make clean up easier.

                      I would not use any litter boxes at first, as they tend to cause disputes. Rabbits can get territorial over their potty spots, even when they are brand new. I usually don’t add litter boxes until we get into 6-8 hour sessions and the rabbits seem to be getting along well.

                      For short sessions you don’t need food or water at all, but you can add a pile of hay in the center of the pen if you’d like. Pellets can be hit or miss. Sometimes they make the buns happy and distracted, but can also cause one bun to get overly excited and food aggressive. So I would prob start without them.

                      For water I will usually feed some wet greens in longer sessions. I don’t add water bowls until the sessions get longer than about 2 hours (they just end up knocking them over with chasing anyway).

                      . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                    • Sera
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                        Thanks for all of the advice! I’ll give it a go in the garage after a month or so of them taking a break with bonding. I think they will be much better when the less dominant male can run away. Especially since the dominant one often seems to bite him preemptively when he takes a defensive stance in their small space.


                      • DanaNM
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                          That sounds like a great plan!

                          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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                      Forum BONDING Last resort before giving up on bond