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Forum DIET & CARE At my wit’s end – Incontinence

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    • Adam
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        I’ve read all the articles I could find on google, and I’ve taken my rabbit to the vet where she tested her urine and did some sort of blood test.  I still don’t know what’s wrong with her, but here is what I know (it’s hard to just have a convo with vet every time I learn something, so some of this would be new to her too):

        1. My buns drinks a lot of water before these episodes happen (for the past couple weeks it’s 2 out of 3 days). So part of the problem is she is drinking too much. She gets a lot of green veg so she probably doesn’t hardly need extra water.
        2. I cannot tell if she is dehydrated. You’d think the vet would notice, but I’m not sure. I need a better test that I can do that isn’t pulling scruff, because she’s too fluffy to tell if it is snapping back or not.
        3. One article says too much salt or not enough veg can be a culprit, but that seems backwards to me, as salt helps bodies retain water and veg has calcium and water in it, which can both aggravate bladder issues, further it seems like she has this problem worse when she gets multiple veg servings the day before. Again, green leafy such as green lettuce, kale, broc, collard, spring mix, etc. Not sugary or starchy things.
        4. Most of her pee spots (or puddles) are watery, more so then  you normally expect of rabbit urine, and are often accompanied by large wet poops, sometimes loose, but she has had megacolon her whole life and it seems sort of connected, like she’s trying to pass a large poop and the urine comes with it, but hard to say, and again it seems like excess water may be the larger issue.

        I’ve tried changing her diet, trying to eliminate the cause, giving lots of food, giving less food.  I don’t think she’s a pure breed of any sort because she’s six pounds currently and I don’t find anything that looks like an american or rex rabbit that would be six pounds (maybe mini rex?).  I used to think she looked overweight, but when I pet her I feel more bones then when I pet my much more slender rabbit, which again may be a sign of dehydration but I can’t conclude it just based on that.

        I need help I am not getting from my vet, and I can’t just find another in the area I’m in, so please guide me.


      • Wick & Fable
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          Can you describe her day to day, including her diet? Does she have a large hay appetite? Excessive water drinking can be a consequence of dental discomfort.

          The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


          • Adam
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              Thanks, sure.

              There’s a large litter box in front of a big hay box, she spends a fair amount of time chilling there each day, eating timothy hay. She has access to a chew log a few times per week. The vet has checked her teeth, but possibly not recently,  I wasn’t in the room for a couple visits. But I would think she would. I’m going to start watching her hay habits a little closer to make sure her routine hasn’t changed.

              Diet includes timothy hay, a few varieties of pellets in small amounts, kale, spring mix, broccoli, collars, turnip, mustard, romaine, green leaf, not all at once, but kind of on rotations. chew log.  This has been the diet since I got her almost 6 years ago now. She’s had bouts of UTI, vet doesn’t think that’s it this time though. She’s had stasis a couple of times, once after losing her first partner.

              On the weekdays, I go clean their room and feed them some kale in the morning. They (have 2 rabbits), then they run around their room, chew cardboard, chill in the litterbox, and around 11-12, get situated in a cubby or find a spot to start napping. This lasts until early evening, when I go down and open their gate so they can come into the rest of the house if they want. Usually the rabbit who is having this problem comes out right away, begs for ‘treat’ whenever I’m on my feet, and has recently started trying to chew and pull up carpet when she doesn’t get fed something, for unknown reasons, and sometimes just to mess with me, given her head shake and darting off when I go to stop her.

              Around 10 PM, I usher them back into their room.

              Her behavior seems less excited and happy than it used to be. She still is playful sometimes, but she used to flop a lot more. It hasn’t ceased entirely (she tends to roll all the way over and scares me cause she’s just very careless about where she’s doing it), but it’s just not as frequent.

              The carpet chewing did make me think of potential dental stuff, maybe there’s pain there we can’t detect, but how would we dig deeper to find out?


          • DanaNM
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              Has the vet checked for kidney function or considered EC? EC is often hard to detect in tests but can cause urinary issues. It might be worth treating for once a UTI has been ruled out.

              I also agree with ruling out dental pain, which could be done with an oral x-ray.

              The only thing I notice about her diet is there are lots of high-calcium veggies there. It doesn’t sound like she is having any sludge or symptoms of bladder crystals…but I wonder if there’s something related there. Maybe she has a crystal in her bladder that’s irritating her?  You mentioned you experimented with her diet, did you try removing all veggies? Or removing only the high-calcium ones?

              I’m sorry you aren’t getting good help from your vet, that’s very frustrating. Even if you have to drive a bit, it might be worth getting a second opinion from someone you have more confidence in.

              . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


              • Adam
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                  The blood work done seems to be primarily for checking kidney function. She said something about slightly (within normal tolerances) elevated “b”, if I heard her right at the time. Said it might be due to calcium, but normally it’s at a level that would raise alarms. She said everything else appeared normal.

                  What is EC?

                  I have at times removed most veggies, and this is a really hard thing to test because it comes and goes, but there may be a correlation there. Outside of lettuce and things with oxalates, most healthy greens seem to have a lot of calcium so if I switch, I don’t know what to switch to really. Just not very practical.

                   


              • DanaNM
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                  EC is short for Encephalitozoon cuniculi, it’s a protozoan parasite that is shed in the urine. It seems like it is often only detected in rabbits when it causes neurological symptoms, but many rabbits carry it and are asymptomatic. Incontinence is a symptom.

                  Here are a few articles on it (that you might share with your vet as well):

                  http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/Signs/Cuniculi_signs.html

                  http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/cuniculi/pyrimethamine.htm

                  https://rabbit.org/journal/3-2/e-cuniculi.html

                  It’s true that lots of veggies have high calcium, but some have much higher than others (like mustard, collard, and turnip greens, for example). Cilantro, lettuces, endive/escarole, and bok choy all have relatively lower calcium.

                  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                • LBJ10
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                    I agree with at least exploring the possibility of EC. There are urinary symptom-only cases.


                  • Adam
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                      Thanks, though it doesn’t appear that thirst is a symptom anywhere. I will see about testing her for that but other suggestions are welcome/needed still.

                      RE vegetables, it just seems like those options are not economical outside the lettuces. I can lower the amount she gets of the ones I listed though if recommended.


                    • DanaNM
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                        I just re-read your initial post and I think I missed the megacolon part. Megacolon buns tend to have trouble keeping weight on, so that could explain why she feels boney as well. How old is she?

                        . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                      • DanaNM
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                          Wow what an amazing bunny room!

                          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                          • Adam
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                              Thanks. Anything for my buns.

                              Yes, she was spayed early on.

                              I paid attention and at least yesterday she seemed to eat hay normally. No pee this morning, but poops she left are still not as firm as they should be. Maybe small mixing of urine with poop, maybe something else?


                          • Hazel
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                              I’m guessing she’s spayed, right?


                            • Wick & Fable
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                                I’ll mention that, although we would generally like rabbits to get a variety of veggies for engagement and extra sources of various nutrition, a variety is not actually needed if they have a good hay appetite and the appropriate amount of pellets. If you wanted to trim down to just romaine lettuce/green lettuces to better test the veggie-theory, it shouldn’t cause ill-health consequences. I speak as someone with two rabbits who often… just get romaine. And that’s on me and the inability to keep the variety of veggies fresh when buying them.

                                I will mention that any veggies that are diuretics, some rabbits can be more sensitive to them. I don’t think any that you mention are, but I will just say that for one of my rabbits, he can’t have parsley. It made him pee like a fire hose, even in small quantities. He, for some reason, is especially sensitive to the diuretic effects of parsley.

                                The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.


                              • LBJ10
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                                  Wick has a good point about some veggies being diuretics. Collard greens, kale, and dandelions can act as diuretics as well.

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                              Forum DIET & CARE At my wit’s end – Incontinence