Bonding mixed signals

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This topic has 11sd replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by DanaNM.

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- 06/15/2020 at 12:33 PM
  mulderbees
  Participant
  6 posts
  Hi! I have a three year old Dutch mix and a one year old American (i think) mix. I got Eliot the male last year from a rescue after Shiloh’s previous bonding attempts with another male from the rescue fell through (they showed no interest in each other and fought at the rescue). I’ve had him for about a year. They had them do dates at the rescue and they were pretty friendly with each other but Eliot was a baby and so I couldn’t put them together until after he was fixed. He was last year and I did try to bond them – they were doing pretty good, able to be out with each other in the neutral area but after a few hours Shiloh would get upset at Eliot for something and they’d start nipping/chasing. At the time I didn’t have the time to do a drawn out bonding process due to work so I focused on switching the sides of their shared x-pen they were on. They groom each other through the bars and seem to enjoy each others company when separated. Now I have time to do a concentrated bonding effort and have them out in a large x-pen in the neutral living room. They’re showing all the good bonding signs – eating together, Shiloh will groom Eliot (he won’t groom her back though he has through the cage bars when they’re in my room), there’s binkies and they both seem fairly relaxed. The issue I’m having is that Shiloh gets annoyed that Eliot won’t groom back and they start to circle – they stop when I say their names but it happens every 20 or so minutes and I’m not sure how to get them over it.
  
  Spay/Neuter
  Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? yes
  If so, for how long (for each)? Shiloh (female) 2 years, Eliot (male) 1 year
  ~~If not, why not?~~
  
  Housing
  Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.). They live in an xpen separated in the middle with a gate
  
  Bonding background
  Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? yes
  How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): They’re pretty affectionate with each other, grooming through the bars of their cage and flopping against the same side of the gate separating them. In their neutral bonding space they’re still pretty affectionate.
  Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? I let one rabbit out every night to run around my room and then open the gate in the pen so the other bunny has full run of the pen and then switch the side they were on (so yes).
  If so, for how long? At least six months
  Have you started sessions yet? Yes, just restarting after a previous attempt last year.
  How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? On and off for a year
  How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? They had bonding sessions at the bunny rescue where I got Eliot and were pretty solid but were doing nipping and chasing when I brought them home.
  Have you tried any stressing techniques? No
- 06/15/2020 at 7:21 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Thanks for filling out the template! 🙂
  
  Overall things sound pretty positive to me, so my first instinct is that they prob just need more time. But, how long and frequent are the sessions so far, and how long have you been working with them since restarting in earnest?
  
  Another thought is to always be sure to end on a good note. So wait till they are calm and happy again before ending the session.
  
  A couple things to try are:
  - stressing- car rides can work wonders. You can pop them in a bin with hay, have someone else drive, and monitor them to prevent nipping while you drive around for 10 or 20 min before the normal bonding session
  - A smaller space
  - A larger space
  - A new space (different room, etc.)
  - tunnels and hiding spots (all neutral and with at least two exits) in the bonding area. Some bunnies do better with places to retreat from when there’s a conflict. Other buns get territorial over them, so it’s a trial and error sort of thing.
  - Some banana on the head of the bunny that hasn’t been groomed back. I have mixed feelings about whether this actually works long term, but I do think it can “break the ice” with grooming sometimes.
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/15/2020 at 11:37 PM
  mulderbees
  Participant
  6 posts
  I just put them together again for the first time today, I’m actually planning on keeping them together for a marathon bonding. The nipping/chasing was a problem I had the last time I tried to bond last year, where I did the shorter sessions. Since earlier today they’ve calmed down a bit on the nipping/circling (I ended up moving onto my screened lanai with an x-pen for the ultimate neutral space, which is where we are now lol). And Eliot’s started to groom her back a little, I think the change in scenery made a difference. If they start having issues again though I’ll have to do some short sessions and work my way up I guess.
- 06/16/2020 at 11:37 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Oh! Gotcha, that sounds very positive then!
  
  I like marathoning when it gets to this point (well, I don’t “like” it, but I think it’s effective). Once you know they are communicating without full-on fights and you start seeing positive behaviors, like you have, I think it works really well to just push on through, especially when you have a good neutral space to work in.
  
  Keep us posted!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/16/2020 at 6:18 PM
  mulderbees
  Participant
  6 posts
  They’ve been doing really well so far! No nipping/chasing. I think the night out on the lanai was good for them (not super comfortable for me but at least it’s warm where I live lol). We moved back inside and still not seeing any nipping/chasing and they’ve been eating together and grooming. I’m going to give them another day or two out in neutral territory just to make sure, I don’t want to rush into putting them into their pen in my room (though neither should have too much of a claim since they constantly switched sides and now it’ll all be open into a full pen). I was able to put a tunnel and a litter box in with them and they’re still okay.
- 06/16/2020 at 6:20 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  They look lovely!
  
  Yes definitely good to “cement” things in neutral for at least 24-48 hours before changing things up. Sometimes scuffles can break out overnight after a day of peace.
  
  But they seem to be coming along great! Positive signs to look for: sharing litter box, sharing food, grooming each other, cuddling, being able to be in each other’s “space” without any tenseness.
  
  Negatives to keep an eye out for: chasing, hard nipping, issues sharing food or litter box, etc.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/16/2020 at 11:13 PM
  mulderbees
  Participant
  6 posts
  We had a little bit of circling earlier but they stop as soon as I say their names. Otherwise they’ve been laying together and Eliot was binkying all over the place, they were eating out of the same bowl, sharing the litterbox. I think the issue is Shiloh is in the submissive position (she’s the one who grooms when Eliot requests faaar more often than Eliot grooming her when she requests) but she still wants to be dominant so when she does try and mount Eliot won’t have it and she gets frustrated. These guys are definitely two steps forward one step back 🙄
- 06/17/2020 at 11:05 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  That all sounds pretty normal, I would say move back to the lanai if needed, even if you bring them in at night.
  
  Some mounting is OK as long as it doesn’t lead to a dispute. At this point I would prob see if things resolve without you saying their names (at least wait like 3-5 seconds), as long as it isn’t super intense circling or chasing.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/17/2020 at 11:22 AM
  mulderbees
  Participant
  6 posts
  The issue is they’re not letting each other mount, which is what’s leading to the circling lol. So they seem pretty comfortable with each other in all other aspects, it’s just whenever they try to figure out who is dominant they reach a stalemate. Since Shiloh is the one doing most of the grooming I imagine Eliot is dominant at the moment, but Shiloh’s not ready to accept that 😅
- 06/17/2020 at 12:51 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Yes, time will tell! Sometimes they do need to chase a little to decide between themselves (as long as the chasing isn’t escalating to a fight).
  
  If they seem to get stuck in this phase, you might try taking them on a car ride together.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/18/2020 at 12:47 AM
  mulderbees
  Participant
  6 posts
  😅 They still haven’t managed to figure out who gets to be dominant. They go for hours just fine and then Eliot will try to mount and Shiloh will run away, and then she’ll be grooming him and then try to mount and then there’s circles as they both try to be the one to mount each other. Both of them thinks they’re the dominant one (Eliot has groomed Shiloh but Shiloh does it a lot more often – she’s a little rough with it but she still does it lmao). I’m by myself so I unfortunately wouldn’t be able to take them on a car ride.
- 06/18/2020 at 9:12 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Are you still working with them out on the lanai? Or are they back inside?
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
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