The issue with the neutral territory is that it’s outside on the balcony, so I don’t think I can safely leave them there for 24-48 hours. Unsure about weather… and bugs… I don’t think there’s any risk of predatory birds swooping at an angle to get onto the balcony, but call me paranoid in not wanting to leave them outside over night, ah!! The neutral sessions have been as long as 8 hours (which is essentially me putting them there around noon and leaving them out there until the late evening).

The other neutral area would be our small kitchen, which is shaped like a C. I would set up the pen in the “C” for short dates, but the problem with that is because it’s a small kitchen area, no one can access the fridge, sink, trash, stove, cabinets, etc.. when the pen is there. The bathroom is the other, similar to the kitchen scenario, the pen takes up the entire walking area of the room (it’s a long, skinny bathroom shape), so also not do-able for 24 hours.

There definitely isn’t harm in just doing more and more neutral dates, especially if they’re going well. I do feel pressured to move into more semi-neutral because of how long I’ve had them, but since the escalation with Wick is so drastic from indoor to outdoor, perhaps I just need to dedicate more regular time to neutral dates…. and eventually he’ll learn that she’s not a threat.

.. I’m glad you don’t see petting as too big of a deal. I’ve had floating in my mind since I got Fable something a fellow volunteer mentioned, which is the fear that they cannot bond because I’m there. Because of that, I’ve been trying to lean away so Wick can get his support from Fable, rather than me, but in this case, I think my support is needed so he can realize she is not an enemy when it comes to his space/territory.

Thank you Dana 🙂

So my bathroom looks like your picture @DanaNM , haha. Admittedly, the enclosure is much smaller:

They have been in there for 20hours at this point.  One question:

They can’t really run around and exercise at all. It’s a slippery floor and small space. I feel especially bad for Fable because she zoomies a lot. I think there has been progress, but I feel bad for the space they are allotted.

I feel compelled to give them each a bit of free roam time (maybe 1hour each?) in the living room, while the other stays in the bathroom. Would that be a bad idea? I feel like it would be because it leaves one in the bathroom space on their own, but I’d like to hear other’s thoughts?

The idea of both of them being out in the free roam space sounds very scary, since that’s where the chaos ensues. I think I alternative will be below:

I think I’ll push it through for a while more, getting closer to maybe 36-48hours but monitoring for any concerns. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and am trying to be forgiving of my concerns in that this is intentional for bonding and will end absolutely sometime. I also have this weird concern that the light is always on so they may be really thrown off that the sun is being weird? Haha. I’m setting up a lamp tonight so they have darkness again.

The picture above is the small L-bend outside the bathroom. I think I’ll open the gate sometime tomorrow morning (during sleep time for them) and see how they do with free roaming in there together. That would be the most semi of semi neutral, since they have been barred from that hallway portion pretty soon after we got Fable. It’s not much, but it’s carpeting for traction!

… they have been doing really well. They had two scuffles I had to spook out in the very beginning and Wick would do his usually nipping her face repeatedly until she was sadly in a corner balled up, but both behaviors have stopped for a long time. I had a Zoom conference set up to monitor them while I slept and they were fine through the night. They are essentially how they were on the balcony now. I’m trying not to peek in or be there at all to help with the bond. From what I see, I think wicks ears-down at her movements have reduced as well.

Well, they got about 10min of leg stretch in the L-bend as a result of tense chasing, bopping, growling, and fur-pulling. It was tame at first, but continually escalated in tension until it was a tussle each time one of them moved essentially. I think I was a large contributor in this — while I am successful at calming Wick back down and getting him to lounge while Fable cautiously moves around, he hovers and sometimes hides behind my feet either for protection or to protect; unsure which. I had some mild success by standing by Fable, but eventually Fable started to participate actively in the chasing and fur-pulling and that’s when I get scared since she can do some serious damage.

They both are now back in the bathroom as usual. Tensions are higher, but I imagine they’ll dissipate as the day goes on. They are already much more calm in the bathroom once again.

The cuddling and grooming is all one-sided. Fable grooms Wick often and will purposely lounge or sit next to him. She will nuzzle her snout under or near him for grooms. Wick doesn’t mind it in the neutral space, but he doesn’t reciprocate. He does request grooms sometimes, but never does anything himself. He may go up to sniff her calmly and maybe lounge near her afterwards, but that’s it. The only time he interacts purposely is if he is tense and nips.

The clarification makes sense, and it was still a learning experience haha. I think I’ll do that. The difficult thing is where to put the non free-roamer, as the xpen is being used for the bathroom area and I am definitely not lugging it back and forth and repotting up visual barriers. Oof. I guess one can go in the car carrier temporarily? Hm….

The pen they were in for night time sleeps (prior to this bathroom arrangement) was a somewhat “neutral” pen in the living room. There are carpet squares on top of the carpeted floor and there are blankets and towels on all sides so they couldn’t see the outside. They would sleep there with a divider at night. That being said, definitely doesn’t seem neutral. I’ve tried a few times having an overnight in there without a divider and it also was a bit hostile. Never made it through a night. Always ended up giving up and putting them separately away. I spent the night in a tiny extension cube with a door barrier and would intervene when needed until I would be tuckered out essentially.

Prior to this bathroom arrangement and what prompted this topic was me doing a smaller pen in a different area of the living room. Not all of it was covered in a carpet square, so maybe the exposed carpet activated Wick, but I’m sure the carpet squares have lost their neutrality at this point.  The pen was visually covered and I did put them in a car carrier prior to putting them in there to try and boost success. Again, Wick got aggressive pretty fast. Fable went back to retreating to one spot.

…. this bathroom seems to be working well so I’ll keep it going. I might order painters tarp because we actually realized yesterday we are out, and it is probably true best bet to try and get something neutral in the living area. There is always visual barriers because it’s what keeps wick from bar chewing, so that’s normal procedure, haha.

Small update: I was able to scrounge up enough spare connectors and grids to create an enclosed space in the balcony, so it’ll be a neutral spot they can go to for exercise together. Downsides are that it is getting hotter and also there are bugs…. and I’m very worried about the bugs. The thought of them biting my rabbits makes me very protective and aggressive. I have citronella candles flanking both sides in effort to combat them.

Thus, the plan will be bathroom and balcony for the foreseeable future until something worsens or my partner gets fed up with the bathroom set up? Haha.

Quick update:

They’ve been together 24/7 several days in a row now (only had one day break due to a trip), either in the bathroom pen or in the balcony pen. The current state of affairs is:

1. Overnight – Full-sized bathroom pen with 2 litterboxes
2. Daytime – Balcony pen with 1 litterbox (anywhere from 2-6hrs, depending on weather and how they seem out there)
3. Evening – Half-sized bathroom pen with 1 litterbox
4. Bedtime – Full-sized bathroom pen with 2 litterboxes

The half-sized bathroom pen came about because Wick was getting hostile and Fable sheltered herself in one of the litterboxes constantly. Since the shrinking, there has been no issues. They are sharing the litterboxes… agreeably?

My partner just did the L-bend experiment (i.e. hallway outside bathroom) with both of them and it went so well. It didn’t end due to escalation and definitely was tamer. Wick still had tail-up and nipping, but it didn’t get worse than that.

…. We continue on with this permanent dual-residency! The most contentious time is in the morning when they hear me prepping pellets. Wick audibly growls when both he and Fable are by the pen door, waiting for it to open, but I know that food energy and being pent up overnight is a lot so I’m not too concerned with it at the moment.

In 100% honesty I fear the banana method with Wick. There is no way physically I could get it on Fable’s head without swatting him and holding him. He won’t jump over a 10in wall, but if there’s banana, he will try and scale a human. Fable also loves banana so I don’t think either would settle to let it happen, haha.

I did try with simethicone once on her head, since he loves the stuff and licks it off stuff all the time, and I recall it being eh. Mainly messed up fables head haha. I may try that again in the future though….. to “prevent gas”.

Here’s them tonight before bed! Fable, of course, is the one who initiated this snuggle. Wick simply complies. Such cuties.

This morning’s outdoor time!

The only reason I decided to get Fable was the knowledge that Wick would have increased time alone at home due to myself and my partner’s employment. Prior to that, I had no worries about Wick being lonely.

Licking isn’t always a sign of loneliness. Most of the time it’s flattering for you!

So, against my judgement, my partner lightly pushed to let them free roam in the living room. He has been extremely tolerant, but definitely frustrated at this process so I decided to let him see what may happen. If it went poorly, he would understand my conservative approach. If it goes well, then great!

So he mediated them in the L-bend like yesterday and it was going well. Wick was still lunging a bit, but he was more so occupied with binkying every other second, which if you have read a lot of my posts, you know this is a highly unusual behavior for Wick. He never binkies ever. Understandable as it was his first time on carpet during active hours in a week.

So, we eliminated the tunnels throughout the living space for safety and moved the barrier so they could free roam in the living room. We are 30min in, and things are going well! Wick had one little spurt but it was quickly deterred. Fable finally got to zoomie around for a little and now both are overheated and exhausted after their energy spurt. Will continue to monitor this and end it on a good note.

We’ll  keep doing this each day and see what happens.

Odd update: So for the past two days, I’ve noticed a crow perching on a tree branch near our balcony. It’s not super unusual because there are trees and there are a couple in the area because it’s a residential space. This morning,  I put them on the  balcony as usual and I went to glance and noticed the crow sitting right on the balcony fence. My partner and I don’t like that so we went ahead and brought them in to free roam in the space. They are sleeping separately away from each other, in their favorite spots, but pretty minimal aggression by Wick. It’s been about 2 hours.

As for outdoor time, I’ll be supervising more than usual because the crow, if anything, may try to harm Wick. We’re not too worried about it trying to get Fable because of the size difference, and there’s a chance it’s more so curious about the colorful toys and hay in their pen, but definitely not taking chances from now on when they’re out there.

So we can stay in free roam endlessly, but Wick quickly adopts a dynamic at charging at Fable when she tries to navigate around. So it’s working due to avoidance and settling.

We have moved the pen into the living space so the benefit of the small size can broach into the scent/environment of the free roam space. Hoping this helps. Already, there’s better tolerance and more relaxation in the pen, even though it’s in the same room.

(Please observe the two hay seed heads littered on the ground because wick never finishes them, haha)

For the reason that you described, the double litter box is just for night time for sake of room and hay for Fable. She does most her hay eating at night (she will drain the entire water bowl in a couple hours) so we need a lot out. In the day, similar to the bathroom, itll shrink in half to just one box.

Update: So, Fable is a 100% no-go on being in a half-sized pen in the living space during the day. She knows what room she’s in and she wants out. So the negotiation is: free-roam for both of them all day and overnight in the half-sized pen. They have overnight for the foreseeable future to work out close-quarters dynamics, and then all day to exercise and navigate their soon-to-be permanent space. It gives Fable less hay to eat overnight (since only one litterbox is there, instead of two), but I trust she’ll make up for it during the day.

It’s only been one day of the half-pen at night arrangement and this morning they got on much more amicably with their morning energy than they did yesterday. They have been together constantly, 24/7, for over a week now in various environments. The only downside (for me) of the half-sized pen at night is Fable is much more pen-crazy earlier the next monrning. While she wouldn’t cage shake until 8:45AMish with the full-pen she was doing it at 7AM this morning. Since she knows what room she’s in, she also defaults to jumping and climbing up the pen. She’ll jump up and have her legs mounted on the horizontal pen bars 3/4’s up the pen wall, and then try and do another jump to clear the wall…. very athletic, and also very scary. She has done this in the past and thankfully has never injured herself when she falls back down, so my wake up call is now permanently earlier, haha. I could put a ceiling up, but from the past experience with her in the covered pen when we first got her months ago, I know she will still attempt to break the ceiling. Since the pen walls are much higher, this could be more dangerous, thus best to negotiate with her. With the pandemic measures, my apartment set “quiet hours” from 10PM to 8AM, so unfortunately Fable will be breaking that with her 7-7:45AM zoomies, haha.

Side note! Currently working on designs for a new hutch for both of them. Ideally, we will dismantle the old one and build the new one and they will inhabit that, so we can circumvent the risk of trying to get them to share the current cage… they both love it (which makes me happy), but as a result, it’s a very contentious area for them. We’ll be reusing all the grids, but it will be brand new flooring, so the scent and familiarity will be much lower. It will also be in a different spot of the room. Current mock-up:

Quick update:

Since the last one, they have been sleeping together in a small pen every night and then free-roaming together throughout the day. The only separation comes when Wick starts carpet pulling and won’t stop, in which case he goes in the pen for his daily sleep. Not ideal, but I have to adapt to the logistics of rented apartment-living and the limits of my supervising capabilities. Aside from that, they’ve been fine, cohabiting roommates who sometimes choose to be near each other and are fine eating with each other.

As of last night (i.e. last night and this morning; two instances), there has been follow through and initiated chasing on Wick’s part. As a result, they are both in the night-time pen right now, even though it’s the day time; they never seem to fight in there and it forces proximity, so I thought it’d be more constructive. This morning, Fable did a playful nip and run at Wick this morning (I actually got to see it; unsure if that’s what started it last night), but Wick did not take it as playful and has been chasing at her, in what I am pretty sure is an aggressive way instead.

Thus, I will be continuing on the usual pattern, with the understanding that they may need to return to elongated time in the small pen together. The weather outside is consistently hotter due to the summer, but I am going to start re-introducing them to being outside on the balcony together as well.

What may have catalyzed the sudden chasing is the replacement of a wooden tower structure in the free-roam space. When it was on our tile floor (in front of our entry way), they had no problem interacting with each other within it; however, I placed it back on the carpeted living area and that seems to be a hostile spot once again, so it has been removed.

We have gone backwards. I’m not too discouraged because while it was fantastic I could free-roam both at the same time, since they weren’t bonded, I sort of accepted the possibility things could go either direction. They have been confined to the pen for longer periods of time, but that didn’t help with the new chasing when free-roamed, so I went ahead with the decision to go back to marathoning in the small pen (except not in the bathroom). I wanted to make it a little bigger though, but this morning, I realized poor Fable was being bullied into staying into the litterbox once the morning “energy” hit. They are now divided in the small pen, reminiscent of their old sleeping arrangement prior to the bathroom bonding.

The plan is to keep them there for a while and allow a free-roam break for each, though I’ll try to be sparing. The visual barriers are good– Wick didn’t notice Fable was free-roam at all, so hopefully it won’t be too much of an issue. My plan is to keep this going for a day or two so Wick can hopefully settle back down, then I’ll re-combine them into a small pen and hopefully they’ll get back to working things out. Worst case scenario.. it’s back to the bathroom and we start over again.

I think it’s due to me that he isn’t a good candidate for bonding unfortunately, haha.

To the extent unless it seems very stressful to her, I am going to keep trying. She yearns for his love even though he’s so high strung, but giving her up is just not an option. I’m not going through that, especially since we’ve had her so long and she’s grown so much personality wise. I would need to return her to the rescue I got her from, which means back to a dog/cat rescue where her foster fed her the colorful pellets and she only got out an hour a day. Nothing of ill intent for the foster, I know they genuinely did their best with their busy home, but Fable is not going back.

Just today me and my partner were talking about the new CC cage being a permanent dual-split one. We arent in a rush to  build, but that may be the direction we go.

It’s unfortunate, but I have really known that Wick probably wont bond with her, but I’m hoping to reach a point where he can be OK with her long term so she can have the companionship there. She definitely has a disconnect with humans. She goes to Wick first for grooming and companionship usually, despite everything.

He loves it… he’s just insecure.

Just swooping in to give an update on their lives: They have essentially been resigned roommates for the past several months. They sleep in a split x-pen at night (so they are separated, but share a wall) and they both roam the living room throughout the day. There are occasional instances of chasing that needs to be stopped, but they never have gotten bad enough that they need to be separated. Typically I’ll pet them both to calm them, and then they’ll go do their own merry thing.

They do not do things together, though in the evening, they both lounge in the same shoe tray, so they end up tolerating snuggles. Fable still grooms Wick and Wick still doesn’t enjoy it, though he’s more tolerant of it. Fable grooms very… harshly? Not in a bullying way, but in all her love, she shakes his entire body with one of her licks so he looks like a mess and is swaying back and forth as she grooms him, poor fellow. Wick hasn’t groomed Fable at all, which is not surprising.

We will be going forward with a split C&C cage, that way when they cannot be supervised, they do not need to be confined to such a small split Xpen. One side has 2 more grid squares than the other, since Fable is larger. I initially considered making them identical so they could swap, but I think that wouldn’t really help the bonding along, so I’m OK with the permanent designation of Fable’s side and Wick’s side.

… so the conclusion is they will probably never be bonded friends, but their ability to cohabitat in the same free-roaming space makes it still worth it to have them both and the few times they do get close due to the shoe tray, it’s very cute, haha.