Bonding advice please?

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 13sd replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by Chelsea.

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- 05/15/2020 at 12:19 PM
  Chelsea
  Participant
  13 posts
  Hi,
  
  I am trying to bond my original bunny Theo (5 year old neutered male) and my recently adopted bunny Juniper (1 year old spayed female) and at first we were making great progress but now they seem stuck. I take them on dates in the bathtub and at first they progressed quickly from mild aggression to ignoring each other to friendly curiosity and brief snuggles. During this time we worked up from 10 minutes to an hour at a time.
  
  After about two weeks of this Theo started pouncing on Juniper’s face incessantly. She comes up, lowers her head to be groomed, and he jumps on her face and scratches the top of her head with his front paws but does not bite her and then immediately backs off. If she moves he does it again, every time she tries to move around. Is this face humping? It’s so brief it doesn’t quite look like humping to me. At first I was stopping it, but when I realized he was backing off immediately and she wasn’t retaliating I let him do it a few times hoping they were establishing dominance and would work it out. But they seem unable to get past this one interaction now and the dates are just repeated face pouncing interspersed with ignoring each other. Also, Juniper will not let Theo get behind her. It seems like he might want to mount properly if she gave him the chance, but he can’t because every he tries to go behind her she whips around and bites him as he goes past. Again, one bite and backs off. They are at some kind of impasse. Does anyone have experience with this behavior?
  
  Meanwhile, when they are in their pens next to each other Theo ignores Juniper, while she constantly hassles him. In bonding sessions Theo seems to be the aggressor, but in the pens Juniper is the aggressor.
  
  Thanks so much!
  
  Spay/Neuter
  Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes
  If so, for how long (for each)? 4 years for Theo (male) and 7 or 8 weeks for Juniper (female)
  
  Housing
  Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.). They are living as neighbors in separate ex-pens in our living room. The pens are about a foot apart, so they can see/hear/smell each other but not touch.
  
  Bonding background
  Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? Theo has been here for years, I adopted Juniper about a month ago and let her settle in for a week before I started trying to bond them.
  How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? Theo – when not in a bonding session he ignores Juniper completely and rarely engages with her between pens, even when she is desperately trying to engage with him. In bonding sessions I would say he is both scared, excited, and aggressive. Juniper – when not bonding she is excited and curious about Theo and sometimes aggressive. She is constantly trying to engage with him between pens to the point where we have to put cardboard between them when we are sleeping/not home. The one time she managed to push the pens together she bit him on the nose. On dates she is curious, friendly, and affectionate for the most part, often requesting him to groom her which he ignores.
  Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Yes, I swap litter boxes and food dishes daily. I tried swapping pens once, but Theo panicked so much he tried to jump out of her pen and broke a nail, and that seemed to set everything back so I haven’t tried again.
  If so, for how long? For a week before starting bonding and continue to swap litter boxes.
  Have you started sessions yet? Yes
  How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? 3 weeks
  How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? Every other day, we started at 10 minutes and are up to about an hour in the bathtub. The reason for every other day instead of daily is that Theo is uncooperative about being caught and it takes 48 hours to be able to trick him again!
  Have you tried any stressing techniques? No.
- 05/15/2020 at 12:39 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Hi Chelsea, welcome 🙂
  
  And thanks for using the template! It is so helpful!
  
  So the pouncing behavior is an aggressive type of interaction, not mounting. It’s kind of a “get away from me!”. In this case, it’s basically saying, “no I will NOT groom you!”. The pouncing itself is not horrible as long as it’s not leading to fighting, but if you feel like they are getting stuck in this phase, you might try something else to see if that changes things up a bit.
  
  I think I would try either a larger space (if you’ve got one, such as maybe the bathroom floor if it’s neutral) to give them a bit more space to interact and work through these dominance displays, or take them on a car ride together (or both) before the tub to see if that helps. Get someone else to drive, pop both buns in a tub, and sit in the back with them and prevent any fighting. Ideally they will cuddle together on the drive and realize the other bun isn’t so bad. 🙂
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 05/15/2020 at 2:22 PM
  Chelsea
  Participant
  13 posts
  Hi Dana,
  
  Thanks so much for the response! It’s really helpful to know that the pouncing is aggressive not mounting. It’s not leading to fighting, but I do feel like they are stuck in this one interaction and not able to move beyond it. She wants to be groomed, he wants to be left alone, they can’t reach any agreement. I was wondering about a larger space and/or change of scenery to shake things up, but wasn’t sure if more space would just make the situation harder to control if they did fight. The bathroom floor would be the logical next step. I was also wondering about vacuuming in the bathroom while they are in the tub as a similar strategy to the car ride?
  
  Thanks again 🙂
- 05/15/2020 at 4:51 PM
  michaela
  Participant
  47 posts
  Hey Chelsea!
  
  I don’t currently own bunnies but I’m researching a lot. I think you should definitely try the car rides and you can also put both buns in a laundry basket put them on top of the washer/dryer when it’s on. Make sure the basket has enough room for both to be cuddled next to each other, not too far apart. This is a form of stress bonding, like the car rides. I’m not too sure about the vacuum, it depends on how they react normally to it. (I haven’t had bunnies before but have done a lot of research.) For any other tricks you might want to check out other forum threads or 101Rabbits has a video from 2016 up on YouTube. Best of luck! 🙂
- 05/15/2020 at 6:45 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  I would try the bathroom floor and see how they do, sometimes a wee bit more space can really help. Maybe even with a car ride first! Vacuuming around can work too, but I’ve found the movement of the car really works well. Some people will also drag the buns around in a laundry basket, or but them on top of the washing machine. Aside from stressing, I’ve always had better luck with large spaces once dates start getting longer. I figure that when an animal is afraid, their options are fight or flight. So if you don’t give space to flee, their option is usually to fight.
  
  It’s great the pouncing isn’t escalating to fighting or scuffling. Based on what their progression has been so far, I actually interpret this as them working out their final arrangements: who will do the grooming first, etc. The grooming request is actually also a dominance display, as the submissive rabbit is the one that grooms first. So, eventually he may give in and groom her, but he has to trust her enough first. Or, she might concede and groom him first, it’s hard to say how it will go!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 05/16/2020 at 6:40 AM
  Chelsea
  Participant
  13 posts
  Oh that’s so interesting that the grooming request is dominant! It all makes sense now. I was thinking lowering the head to be groomed was a submissive gesture. I couldn’t understand what the problem was because I thought he was acting dominant and she was acting submissive, so why is there a problem. I’m glad it sounds like you think this still could be a successful match and they just need figure out who is going to be in charge.
  
  The plan for the next date is a car ride followed by a date on the bathroom floor! But now I’m left wondering just what Theo is saying when he asks ME to groom him a million times a day! Juniper loves to be pet but never puts her head down like that to me, only to Theo.
- 05/16/2020 at 12:41 PM
  michaela
  Participant
  47 posts
  You’ll definitely have to update us on how is goes! 🙂
- 05/16/2020 at 7:55 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Haha! I’m glad that clarifies things! I think we are all the submissive ones in our relationships with our bunnies! Lol. Bun Jovi pretty much glues his head to the floor and just waits for someone to come pet him.
  
  Sounds like a good plan for the next date!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 05/18/2020 at 8:08 AM
  Chelsea
  Participant
  13 posts
  Well, the plan didn’t go as planned. I forgot to mention that Theo REALLY does not like to be picked up, to the point where I’ve actually only managed it once in 5 years and that was when he was very sick. Before this whole bonding thing when we needed to catch him to trim his nails or something we would lure him into his travel crate with treats and take him to another room to do it. Anything else we needed to do he would let us do on the floor in his usual area. It’s annoying but not the end of the world. I spent a lot of time training him to go in the crate on command and it worked great when we only actually picked it up and took him somewhere every 6 weeks or so. Since starting bonding I’ve also been using the crate to take him into the bathroom for dates and although he is more suspicious it’s still more or less working. This is why we only do dates every other day to alternate with good crate experiences on the off days. But yesterday we spent an hour trying various ways to get him in a rubbermaid bin to go in the car and we did not succeed. The only result was that he was super stressed and distrustful, so we scrapped the date for the day. I’m afraid I’m really damaging his trust in us.
  
  Anyway, the new plan is to just do a bathroom floor date this evening with no car ride first. It’s so frustrating not to be able to just move him from place to place because I think the car ride would be very effective! Anyway, I’ll keep you posted….
- 05/18/2020 at 1:17 PM
  michaela
  Participant
  47 posts
  It’s too bad Theo is being such a pain. Hopefully he’ll cooperate tonight. 😬 Maybe you can try to lure him in with treats into his carrier and then somehow transfer him from there to the Rubbermaid once you get in the car? Best of luck!
- 05/24/2020 at 12:42 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  It’s very normal for buns to be annoyed and distrustful during bonding. Don’t worry, he will forgive you when it’s all over!
  
  It is important to be able to pick up your bunny in case of emergency, so I encourage you to keep trying. It can help to confine the space a bit (like with an x-pen) if he is running away from you. It sounds weird, but having the attitude that “this is not negotiable” seems to help. lol
  
  When I have to pick up a feisty bunny (I volunteer at a shelter), I will usually pin them down over the head and shoulders with my dominant hand, then use my other hand to scoop up their bum, so they end up pressed against the forearm of my non-dominant hand. Then I hold them against the side of my body, kind of like I’m running a rugby ball lol. So they front end is supported by my right hand and left hip, and my left hand is supporting their back end.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/08/2020 at 1:08 PM
  Chelsea
  Participant
  13 posts
  Update! We have been taking a break from the bonding because Theo is having some health problems. After a series of problem solving we figured out that he is in some kind of physical pain (metacam helps dramatically) but the vet can’t find any problems in an exam, xray, or bloodwork. He seems to be improving now but it might be something with his teeth that can’t be easily seen and he may end up needing dental work. I posted more about it in the health questions forum.
  
  Anyway, we’re not going to start bonding again until that is fully resolved, but when we do should we treat it as if we are starting over from the beginning with a short bathtub date or pick up where we left off with an hour on the bathroom floor? I’m also wondering if Theo’s sudden turn from friendly to aggressive on their dates might have had to do with being in pain from his teeth or whatever it is, because the other behavior changes and getting harder to capture seemed to start around the same time. Maybe he was really saying “get away from me, I’m in pain! I don’t want to go on a date because I don’t feel well!” instead of not liking Juniper? Or maybe it’s unrelated and they just need to work out dominance.
  
  Thanks for the picking up tips! I will keep trying, but meanwhile I’ve been continuing to work with him on going in the crate on command and he’s doing well with that again.
- 06/08/2020 at 1:32 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Health problems definitely can affect bonding! Sorry he’s doing poorly but glad you picked up on it. It is very possible he was extra cranky because he was in pain. I had a pair where one bun had dental issues and whenever he needed dental work it would affect the bond (they would bicker). I suspect when a bun is in pain they feel much more vulnerable and less trusting overall. Hope you get to the bottom of what’s going on with him.
  
  Once you resume, you’ll just have to gauge and see where they are at. My hunch is that it won’t be completely like starting from zero, but not right where you left off either. I’m sure that’s not really helpful lol.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 06/09/2020 at 5:50 AM
  Chelsea
  Participant
  13 posts
  Thanks! And it is helpful just to know there’s not a clear answer to where to start again. I’ll probably start in the tub and see how they seem and where to go from there.
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