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Forum BONDING bonding jitters

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    • mowingmylawn
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        hello i have two seperated rabbits and i tried to bond them about three weeks ago. i had a carrier that they had both been in before and it may have caused their scuffle. they just pulled out a little bit of hair and that was that. im just very scared of something happening and it makes me nervous. also how should i arrange a car ride with the bunnies. should i put them in at the same time? or have one in there and put the other beside them. does anyone know how to get over this nervousness?


      • DanaNM
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          I’m assuming both are spayed/neutered and you’ve done pre-bonding?

          If they scuffle in the carrier then don’t bring them in the same carrier, or make sure you have a helper drive, so you can be with them to make sure they do not fight.

          If you are nervous, it can make the bunnies nervous, so try to keep a calm presence. Slow breathing helps.

          I also wear oven mits on my hands at first to make sure I can prevent fights.

          The strategy that I’ve been using at the moment (at the suggestion of my local rescue coordinator) is to stop nipping and fights BEFORE they happen by petting them both a LOT whenever they approach each other. This will also help calm you down! Turn it into a big petting fest. This can be especially helpful when they’ve fought in the past. I found my two that I’m currently working with were getting more and more aggressive each date, so we had to break that cycle. The goal is to build a positive and calm association with approaching each other.

          Eventually they will need to sort out dominance, but this method seems to make everyone calmer and is much less stressful on me and the bunnies. I think when you are not too familiar with bunny body language it can be nice too, as it can be hard to know when to stop a scuffle.

          What is your main bonding space you are using? Usually larger is better if you think they will fight, as they have room to escape one another.

          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


        • mowingmylawn
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            i have been doing lots of prebonding and there is really no reactions anymore when i switch cages. i used the bathtub at first so i could slide them away from one another. i heard that smaller was better so i could work into a bigger space?


          • DanaNM
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              Bath tub can work, did it work out for you?

              If they try to fight in the tub, I would try a much larger space. It really depends on the bunnies. Some do fine in a small space, others do better with large.

              I think the only hard and fast rule in bonding is, if it doesn’t seem to be working (meaning, they keep trying to fight), then do something different.

              Think of it like you getting to know a new person. Being locked in a room with them will certainly force you to get to know them sooner, but if you don’t quite click at first it might make you more inclined to argue with them. If you meet in a more open, natural space, you can get to know them more on your own terms.

              I’ve heard that “small spaces prevent fights”, but honestly mine have always found a way to fight in small spaces if they wanted to!

              . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


            • mowingmylawn
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                it didnt work out sadly. they fought and fur was pulled. but somehing slipped past me, the carrier had one of their scents in it, sams. hes basically the only one who has every been in there, except once or twice with squirrel. it was squirrels fur that was pulled so it mightve just been a mistake on my part and he was just protecting his territory. when should i start bonding again? theyve been seperated for 3 weeks since my last failed bonding sesh


              • DanaNM
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                  Sorry if I’m missing some other history, but if it was only fur pulled, that doesn’t mean you need to take a complete break from bonding sessions. If they actually injured each other, then a longer break is good. Do they have a history of fighting?

                  So it sounds like small spaces aren’t working out at the moment for them. Do you have any large spaces available to you? Maybe you could set up a pet at a friend’s house? You’ll want a very neutral space, and large. No hiding boxes or litter boxes they can get territorial over.

                  Or an area in your home where they have never been?

                  In that new space, you’ll want to be right there with them, and pet pet pet pet whenever they come near each other.

                  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                • mowingmylawn
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                    no i first seperated them to get neutered and it was only fur pulled. i thought any sort of things like that should be avoided. i have a playpen that theyve been in but i can clean it possibly?


                  • Sirius&Luna
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                      Fur pulling should be avoided, but it’s not a deal breaker Try to keep calm, as like Dana said, they can feed off your emotions, and you being there as a calming influence is actually really important.

                      If you thoroughly clean the playpen, put something neutral on the floor and maybe drape some towels over the walls so they can’t see out, that should work

                      Bathtub has never worked for my bunnies.


                    • mowingmylawn
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                        okay thank you!! when should i start bonding again? i was thinking about taking a stab at it this weekend. would bonding them in the playpen work?


                      • mowingmylawn
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                          Posted By mowingmylawn on 2/23/2018 9:12 AM
                          okay thank you!! when should i start bonding again? i was thinking about taking a stab at it this weekend. would bonding them in the playpen work?


                        • Sirius&Luna
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                            We already said that you didn’t need to stop bonding, and I told you what you needed to do to be able to use the playpen as a neutral space.


                          • mowingmylawn
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                              oh okay sorry, thanks. ill try a session today


                            • Sirius&Luna
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                                Let us know how it goes don’t be afraid to just have a very short session and stop it while it’s going well


                              • mowingmylawn
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                                  i tried to bond them, i put them both in the playpen when i was done putting the towels over it. when they got close i got scared and put one of them back in the carrier and i started crying. im really nervous and im afraid they will fight. i dont think i can do it, what should i do


                                • Sirius&Luna
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                                    The first time I put my bunnies together I was terrified. It is scary, especially if they’ve had a fight before, but they can also tell if you’re scared and it will feed into their emotions.

                                    You need to do what works for you – what if you sat in the pen with them, and kept your hands between them at the beginning until you can feel like you can trust them a bit more. That’s what I did to begin with. I’ve also been using a table this time, so they’re at the perfect height for me to grab one if something goes wrong. If you are with them, and watching carefully, even if they get into a fight it shouldn’t be too bad because you’ll be able to intervene immediately. You can also wear leather gloves (lots of people say oven mitts, but I find that you can’t grip very well in oven mitts) so you know you won’t get bitten if you stick your hand in between them.

                                    It’s also a good reason to start off short – just put them together for a minute then separate them, and then try 2 minutes a bit later.

                                    If you really don’t think you can do it, perhaps you could contact some rescues near you and see if they offer a bonding service? Many do.


                                  • mowingmylawn
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                                      okay thank you. do you think i startled them too much should i wait till tomorrow or try a small session today? also is it ok if i do a session in the bathtub to see if itll work with completely neutral territory, that i know is neutral. i feel more comfortable but if i know it wont work 100% then ill feel more confident in the play pen?


                                    • Sirius&Luna
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                                        I don’t think you will have startled them, so it’s up to you whether you want to take the day off or get back to it. It won’t affect them, just decide what you feel comfortable with.

                                        You can definitely try the bath tub, it works for lots of bunnies, but one of mine absolutely hates it so it doesn’t work for mine. It really is about finding what works for them and you


                                      • DanaNM
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                                          Ah, sorry I missed all these questions, but S&L has given very good advice IMO.

                                          I already mentioned this, but given how nervous you are, I really really recommend that you use the petting technique I described early. You can sit in the play pen with them (or next to the tub), and just start petting as soon as you put the bunnies in. They don’t even need to be touching each other, so no need to wait until you are worried about a fight happening. Just having them near each other will start building calm feelings and desentizing them to each other’s scent.

                                          You can try for 1 minute at first for a few days in a row. Then try for 2 minutes, etc.

                                          And just to review bunny body language:

                                          Ears back, tail up = about to bite/lunge/attack
                                          Ears forward, tail down = curious, interested, listening.

                                          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                        • mowingmylawn
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                                            thank you, im gonna try bonding again and im much more comfortable so i hope itll be good. i watched stormy rabbits video on bonding and her rabbits didnt like eachother before but she kept bonding and it seemed to help so i can do it too.


                                          • DanaNM
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                                              Yes, it can be a slow process, but it is worth it in the end. My first pair were a tough bond, and would fight on sight at first, but with lots of patience they finally bonded and were a very close, tight bond. In that case we had to start with very short dates (1 min or so) and work up from there.

                                              So yes, def keep trying.

                                              . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                            • mowingmylawn
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                                                okay well i put them together and i didnt let them touch but i pet them until i felt like that was good. then i took one out and calmed myself down then put them together and made them cuddle for like maybe 30 seconds and then i felt comfortable with that. is that okay?


                                              • mowingmylawn
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                                                  okay well i put them together and i didnt let them touch but i pet them until i felt like that was good. then i took one out and calmed myself down then put them together and made them cuddle for like maybe 30 seconds and then i felt comfortable with that. is that okay?


                                                • DanaNM
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                                                    That sounds like a good start.

                                                    Repeat that (30 sec – 1 minute of petting/smooshing) for the next few days. Then try for 2-3 minutes for a couple days, then 5 min, etc.

                                                    You will start to get a read on how calm or tense they are, and you will also get more comfortable with the process. When you pet them it’s good to switch which hand is petting which bunny to swap their scents.

                                                    . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                  • mowingmylawn
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                                                      sorry for the double post oops – anyways im much more confident i think tomorrow im gonna pet them for as long as i can bear because i feel confident now. when should i start letting them run around in the bathtub and do what they do? (basically a normal session)


                                                    • Sirius&Luna
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                                                        I’m glad you’re feeling more confident!

                                                        Don’t rush it though – I still wouldn’t do the petting trick for more than 5 minutes for your second session. Again, it’s up to you when you start letting them interact in the bathtub. Try and gauge how they react when they’re next to each other.


                                                      • mowingmylawn
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                                                          okay thanks


                                                        • DanaNM
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                                                            Agree, I would do a least a few more sessions of petting for a few minutes. The tendency early on can be to push things until they turn bad, but you want to always end on a good note, so it’s better to not push too hard in these early stages.

                                                            The next step would be to try for 3-5 minutes, where you only pet them when they come near each other. That way you can prevent fights, and build the association that being close to each other is a good thing.

                                                            . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                          • mowingmylawn
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                                                              okay, should i keep doing the smooshing technique until they can go for 10 minutes w/o any nipping or anything, then letting them roam free and pet them when they get close? im a bit confused about the steps


                                                            • DanaNM
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                                                                That sounds like a good plan. The steps aren’t super set in stone, but the basic idea is to increase the time very slowly and gradually, and when they are doing well, repeat that exact date several times before increasing the time too much or changing anything. This helps “cement” the good behavior. You wouldn’t want to jump from 5 minutes to 30 minutes, for example.

                                                                If you feel like 10 minutes of smooshing is too long, you can start the date with 3-5 minutes of smooshing, and then let them explore a bit and only pet when they come close together. After they have relaxed and are enjoying the pets, I eventually like to pause petting for a few seconds at a time to see what happens. Often one bunny will decide they need to groom themselves, or they want to move away on their own, which is fine. But anytime they turn their face back towards the other bunny and they are nearby, pet pet pet.

                                                                After a some more sessions you will start to get a better sense of how they are doing and the pace at which you can increase the session lengths. Once you get up to 15 minutes or so, you can try increasing session lengths by 5-10 minutes at a time. For example, if you notice they settle down and relax near each other when they are being petted, that’s a good sign and you can start increasing the amount of time they are together. If they stay really tense, then keep the sessions short. Does that make sense?

                                                                . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                              • mowingmylawn
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                                                                  yes! ive heard lots about bonding and other things so thanks for giving me a basic idea


                                                                • DanaNM
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                                                                    Sweet, I totally get it, there is so much information out there, and many different strategies, so it can be overwhelming! My first time bonding I had to get advice from someone at a house rabbit society, who helped me over email. It was sooooo helpful, so just trying to pay it forward.

                                                                    . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                                  • mowingmylawn
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                                                                      okay so second session was a success for some reason sam was kinda leaning into squirrel and idk what what happening but yea. im not sure how long that was but it was a longer time. i got my grandma in there to watch and we just talked. i think it was about 3 minutes?? im not 100% sure but my back started hurting so it was getting hard ahah i gotta choose a better position next time. i kinda rested for a moment but i wanted to be alert, just in case there was a fight. but it went well !! hooray. should this bond be easy? my rabbits were bonded so well before tbh they were together constantly and theyre brothers so i dunno.


                                                                    • DanaNM
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                                                                        That sounds very positive, good work!

                                                                        No way to really know how it will go at this point, but glad things are going better.

                                                                        . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                                      • mowingmylawn
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                                                                          can i do two sessions today? one where is like 4-5 mins and one a bit longer??


                                                                        • Sirius&Luna
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                                                                            You can do, but be careful not to rush for your benefit. i know it’s easy to get excited when you have a good session, and you want them to be bonded as soon as possible, but make sure you’re reading their emotions too – don’t push them to a point where they’re uncomfortable and might fight.


                                                                          • DanaNM
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                                                                              Yes, but as S&L said, careful not to rush. You have only done a few very short dates so far, so it’s important to stick to the plan of increasing gradually, and repeat what worked a few times before increasing the length of the sessions too much.

                                                                              It’s good to always “quit while you’re ahead” with bonding sessions. I don’t mean quit bonding entirely, but to end the sessions before they get aggressive. It might help to make a little schedule and set some goals for yourself. Such as, “If the first date of 5 minutes goes well, I will do another 5 minutes session in the evening”.

                                                                              . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                                                            • mowingmylawn
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                                                                                okay thanks guys


                                                                              • mowingmylawn
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                                                                                  is it okay to skip a day of bonding? my rabbit simply will not come out of the carrier and he is kinda irritated and thumped a couple times. ive had homework and its gotten late. if not ill force him out but i dont want to bond him while hes angry


                                                                                • Sirius&Luna
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                                                                                    It’s best to stick to a consistent schedule, but you’re right, it’s also best not to start a bonding session with a grumpy bunny!

                                                                                    Try and do at least one session a day, but sometimes it just isn’t possible and it shouldn’t be a big problem.


                                                                                  • mowingmylawn
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                                                                                      starting a session wish me luck )


                                                                                    • mowingmylawn
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                                                                                        starting a session wish me luck )


                                                                                      • mowingmylawn
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                                                                                          third session went perfect, they were also chattering their teeth a little idk if thats good but im pretty sure it was purring. my grandma was in there with me and was gonna set a timer but she didnt and she lost it so i had to count manually. i hope it was 5 minutes. i think i might just do 2 sessions on weekends, when i get home from school im usually tired so yea.


                                                                                        • DanaNM
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                                                                                            Great!

                                                                                            Yeah I usually can’t manage two sessions in a day…. especially once the sessions start getting longer.

                                                                                            . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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                                                                                        Forum BONDING bonding jitters