Posted By Buneary on 1/20/2018 4:44 PM

Hiya! Chibi’s Spay appointment is on January 31st, the day she turns 4 months. I’ve spoken with the vet and she said she will be good to go for surgery by that time, of course I’m a little nervous. Buneary was also 4 months when she was spayed and she recovered beautifully. Anyways, I’ve taken the advice you all have given me, and will be waiting a month post Spay before starting bonding. I’m so unpatient, but for my buns sakes I will do anything. The first day of bonding will be February 28th. Any tips on how to start the first session? I’ve heard many mixed tips from everywhere. Like start off in the biggest room possible, or start in a small area like the bathtub. Of course, all neutral territory. They have gotten to know each other through the cage bars and sharing their play pen (coming out at different times of course) Territorial poops from my older spayed bun have diminished. Trying to nip through the cage bars has not though. I know it’s a month away, but I just really want to make sure I’m prepared and doing it the right way. Keeping them separate has been a hassle, especially when ones out playing and the other one gets jealous. I’ve also been switching them between each other’s cages as sort of ‘pre-bonding’. My plan is to start on February 28th and have bonding sessions everyday after that. I was thinking about buying them a cottontail cottage, but wanted to wait until they were bonded. Would that be a good item to put in the room while bonding? What about outside sessions in an x-pen? I know Buneary is going to nip Chibi, maybe even hard. Why does she nip her? It’s something I know is going to happen in the beginning and I’m not sure what to do. If she nips hard do I end the session right there? I’ve read you should alway try and end every session on a positive note, if a fight breaks out or if one is scared for their life how do you turn that into a positive situation? If Chibi backs down and allows Buneary to be the dominant one (bc she is) will Buneary stop bullying? So many questions for something that’s not going to happen until a while right now, but please give me all the advice and tips you have! I want to do this the right way.

For the very first session, I prefer a large space, but I’ve done both large and small. The reasoning is that in large spaces, they have space to move away from each other if they feel threatened, so they are less likely to all out fight. In small spaces, they can feel like the have to fight as they can’t escape. I’ve done bath tub bonding before, and it’s been OK… but it’s not my favorite space. For just a quick, “let’s just see if they hate each other”, it can be OK. If the first session in the bathtub doesn’t go well, then don’t try it again for the second. Go for something larger, or stressful (or both!).  My buns have also always quickly learned to escape the tub, so it doesn’t work so well for them.  

I would wait until they are bonded for the cotton tail cottage. Then there is no risk of either one claiming it, and it will help make their area more new and neutral once they are bonded. 

I think an x-pen outside would be great as it’s very neutral and large. Just make sure the grass they are on hasn’t been sprayed with pesticides. And watch out for hawks! It would be ideal if you put a roof over it, like an ez-up or something.

Don’t end the session for nipping.  She is nipping to show her dominance, and that’s normal. Some nips are expected as they establish their hierarchy. But you should stop relentless hard biting, chasing, and circling, as these can lead to fighting. So if she’s nipping and chasing Chibi, then you need to stop that behavior, but don’t end the date right then. If you end the date when she nips, then she learns that she can make the other bunny go away by nipping her! Try to stop the aggression with a loud noise or squirt bottle (vs you pushing them apart).  If Chibi backs down when she is nipped, that’s a good thing, and eventually Buneary should accept that she can be trusted. 

I think in early stages when you think there will be fights and nipping, it’s a good idea to set short time goals. There is a strong temptation (and I think we’ve all succumbed to it) to keep a date going when it’s going well, but often we can push it too far and then a fight breaks out. 

If you have cases where they start scuffling, try to stop it with noise, but stop it however you can to prevent it from turning into a full blown fight. Then I like to smoosh them and pet them both on the head and swap their scents. I will often do this at the start of a date too, especially if they go nose to nose and ask for grooms. 

The idea and hope is that once Buneary trusts that Chibi has fully submitted, then she will stop bullying and they will be bonded soon after that. 

You are asking great questions so feel free to keep posting and asking as things move along! 

I will add that hormonal buns can make spayed buns crazy, so hopefully she will be less aggressive towards Chibi once she is spayed.  

Hey so my cousin is moving and she’s giving me her two buns bc she could not sell them. They’re a bonded pair unneutured and I have a male unneutured who is 10 months. I was thinking of having them in separate cages next to each other but w enough space in between. Help this is happening tm.

Bun0901: It might be more helpful to you to have your own thread so people can respond to your specific questions. But, to surface answer yours: if they are all not neutered, they all need to be completely separated at all times. Bunnies that aren’t altered are not bonded, and fights can break out at a moment’s notice. All three bunnies will need separate cages and separate play times until 1 month after the final bunnies neuter. The move to your place will be stressful on your cousins bunnies, and could very well cause them to fight. hope this helps

Oh okay I will do that , thank you so much and I do plan on neutering them all. Hope everything works out fine thank you

Rabbits only squeal when they feel their life is threatened. They may or may not have been hurt. It could be that Chibi was just very startled and frightened.

Unfortunate but shouldn’t be a deal breaker, just make sure it can’t happen again! It’s amazing how bunnies can get at each other during this phase.

Hard to know who squealed, but I agree it was likely out of fear as the other attacked. Moose once squealed during a bonding session with Bertha, even though she wasn’t biting him. She had lunged at him and pressing him against a wall, and I think it was his way of saying he was afraid and not trying to fight back. I think some bunnies are more vocal than others. Moose grew up with his brothers so he might have learned that squealing would stop his siblings from picking on him.

Anyway, with your two, did you find clumps of fur (indicating a scuffle)?

I haven’t dealt with spay recovery myself, but make sure the vet gives you pain medication, and have critical care on hand in case she won’t eat. You will also want to restrict her space so she can’t jump up or down on things, and keep her area calm, quite, and warm while she is recovering. Also, she should NOT be fasted before her spay. If the vet asks you to, they are not a good rabbit vet and you should take her elsewhere.

That’s really great that Buneary isn’t acting as aggressively.

4 weeks might not be quite enough time. The amount of time for hormones to drain is variable, but I’ve heard anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months. I believe the minimum recommended on this forum is usually 6 weeks, but searching through older threads some forum leaders have also said 4 weeks is usually enough.
I’ve been trying to find a real reference, because I think sometimes recommendations get longer and longer, because people want to be safe about things.

Since Chibi and Buneary fought before, I would err on the safe side, and wait a few more weeks. But, you can start pre-bonding (cage swaps) now that she is physically nearly healed, or you might want to wait another week.

Since they fought before, I would go for 4 weeks of pre-bonding, then you should also be on good shape concerning her hormones. You can also gauge whether Buneary’s behavior towards her improves even more.

I have personally done less pre-bonding, but in those cases the bunnies seem very relaxed around each other, they have stopped marking and running the fence, and speed dates were very positive. In cases where the bunnies are aggressive, more pre-bonding can be really helpful.

Congratulations on Chibi’s spay! I’m sure both buns are both relieved to have those hormones out of the way! I waited about 2 weeks after Sophia’s spay(4 weeks recovery time) to start bonding- you can use your judgments and your instincts on when to start- you know your buns the best Just start very slowly and cautiously. I would start with a speed date 5 minutes or so just to have them in neutral territory and bring some yummy veggies and treats to the date. I have a link for a really great bonding tutorial that helped me (I’m about to bond for the 5th time in my bunny life experience over 15 years). You are amazing owner and your buns are very lucky!

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

Congratulations on Chibi’s spay! I’m sure both buns are both relieved to have those hormones out of the way! I waited about 2 weeks after Sophia’s spay(4 weeks recovery time) to start bonding- you can use your judgments and your instincts on when to start- you know your buns the best Just start very slowly and cautiously. I would start with a speed date 5 minutes or so just to have them in neutral territory and bring some yummy veggies and treats to the date. I have a link for a really great bonding tutorial that helped me (I’m about to bond for the 5th time in my bunny life experience over 15 years). You are amazing owner and your buns are very lucky!

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

Congratulations on Chibi’s spay! I’m sure both buns are both relieved to have those hormones out of the way! I waited about 2 weeks after Sophia’s spay(4 weeks recovery time) to start bonding- you can use your judgments and your instincts on when to start- you know your buns the best Just start very slowly and cautiously. I would start with a speed date 5 minutes or so just to have them in neutral territory and bring some yummy veggies and treats to the date. I have a link for a really great bonding tutorial that helped me (I’m about to bond for the 5th time in my bunny life experience over 15 years). You are amazing owner and your buns are very lucky!

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

The strategy that I’ve been using at the moment (at the suggestion of my local rescue coordinator) is to stop nipping and fights BEFORE they happen by petting them both a LOT whenever they approach each other. This will also help calm you down! Turn it into a big petting fest. This can be especially helpful when they’ve fought in the past. I found my two that I’m currently working with were getting more and more aggressive each date, so we had to break that cycle. The goal is to build a positive and calm association with approaching each other.

Eventually they will need to decide who will be dominant, but ultimately they need to trust each other and not be afraid.

I really think this technique will help your two. So yeah, any time they come near each other, pet them a lot!

I agree with DanaNM- turn the whole experience into a relaxing blissful time. So when they associate spending time together they associate with good warn and fuzzy feelings. Just pet them until comatose and do your best to breathe and remain calm and remember you are in charge. Your buns will pickup on your nervuousness so just be ready to break up and stop any fights or nipping and say “no be nice” and then pet pet pet pet in all their favourite places. Bring some veggies too or yummy treats. You could always smear a little mushed banana on their noses to entice grooming too(even if by accident)

Hope it’s going well!

Are you trying the petting technique I described?

Also, you said they are fine for the first few minutes, so you need to stop the session after the first few minutes, BEFORE Buneary tries to bite.

Chibi putting her head down is not a sign of submission, it’s a dominance display, as she is asking for grooms. Buneary wants to be dominant, Chibi isn’t submitting if she is putting her head down.

All of that aside, if Chibi is getting blood drawn then you need to take a break and to let them forget each other, and assess whether you want to continue.

If you are petting and they are still biting that hard, I think you should take a month break (with no pre-bonding), then go back to pre-bonding for another 4 weeks.

It’s probably too early for the banana trick. I found it successful when they get to the point where they are peaceful together, but not grooming yet.

The idea with separating them is to allow them to forget that the other bunny hurt them. Right now if Buneary is biting with the intention to hurt (which she is, if she is drawing blood), then Chibi might start becoming very afraid and unlikely to trust her.

It might seem counter intuitive, but in order for a rabbit to bond, they must learn to trust that the other will not attack them, and they must not be afraid of the other. They have to trust the other rabbit will not hurt them if they submit to them. If Buneary is biting Chibi any chance she gets, then Chibi will not trust her enough to submit, and you will get caught in a cycle of fighting. Since Chibi is too afraid to submit, then Buneary will keep attacking. And so on….

Rabbits can hold grudges, so the more they bite and fight, the harder it will be to bond them. A rabbit that fears the other will not bond properly, and the bond is likely to break in the future.

If you aren’t quite ready to take a full break, you can try really short sessions (and car rides, if that works), and see how it goes, but if it seems like they aren’t calming down after a week, then a full break and then a lot of pre-bonding is necessary.

Female female bonds are often the hardest, and there are some bunnies that just aren’t a good match. If after a full break and lots more pre-bonding they still are fighting, then it would prob be best to keep them as singles, and maybe try to bond each with another bun (prob a male) of their choosing.

That’s really great! Stress sessions can be really really helpful when the buns want to fight.

Just be really careful not to stress them too much (make sure they are eating and pooping fine after the stress sessions).

In terms of getting one to submit, that part is honestly up to them to figure out. They will just need to reach some sort of agreement on their own, and eventually it sounds like they will. When both buns are stubborn about being dominant it can take time. I think it really comes down to learning that they can trust one another. If they are very scared of the other bunny, they won’t want to groom them.

Any grooming at all this point is a huge improvement, so I would stick with car rides for now (and sessions at the other house when you have time), just keep an eye on their stress levels. It’s OK to take a day off here and there to make sure they stay healthy.

Don’t stress too much if they don’t groom each other too much yet. The main goal is to have things not escalate to a fight when one bunny doesn’t get what they want!