Very Long Bonding Process, Now in a Rut.

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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

This topic has 12sd replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by DanaNM.

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- 11/12/2017 at 9:17 AM
  SaRa
  Participant
  13 posts
  Hello everyone!
  
  I do not want to bore you will all the details of the bonding process since I’ve been working on it for 7 months now…so I’ll try to keep it short – I have two holland lop bunnies: Bubba (Spayed Female 4y) and Poe (Neutered Male 2y). After 7 months this is where we are now:
  
  Poe is very keen on being close to/engaging with Bubba and Bubba is not too sure about it. Poe will attempt to approach Bubba from behind (I assume to mount her) and she’ll move away (some times in a hurry). If he approaches her from the front, she does not move and will tuck her chin in her neck, Poe will then get super close to her face and lay down next to her. Occasionally, Bubba will initiate things – she’ll try to smell Poe but will immediately duck her head down if he turns around to reciprocate. If not in the playpen together, but separated only by a gate, they will smell the other face to face and then lay down next to each other and even sleep!
  
  I do not know how to push things further. Bubba seems ok with how things are while Poe would like more…but as soon as he tries to push things, Bubba will remove herself form the situation. The process has been very long and slow and things have remained this way now for 2 months. I work on their bonding once a day every day, I believe we are stuck and admittedly I am losing confidence.
  
  Advice?
  
  P.s. Additional things which may be of interest/importance:
  
  Bubba seems more interested in human attention while Poe will aways chose to seek Bubba’s attention first. Poe will always release territorial droppings during the playpen exercises and sometimes with also pee. Bubba shows territorial droppings in her own enclosure close to the side near Poe’s enclosure but otherwise doesn’t do this in the playpen. Bubba has a stuffed animal she now mounts every time she is back in her enclosure.
  
  ANY ADVISE WILL HELP! THANKS!!!
- 11/12/2017 at 1:11 PM
  LittlePuffyTail
  Moderator
  18092 posts
  Hi, SaRa.
  
  I noticed you had 2 similar posts pending approval so I approved this one and deleted the other. But I’m going to copy and post your info from the other thread since the info is a little different.
  
  Hopefully, someone will be along soon to offer advice.
  
  Duplicate thread post from SaRa with a bit different info:
  
  Subject: Long Bonding Process – Now Stuck. NEED ADVICE!
  Hello everybody!
  I do not want to bore with all the details of my bonding process as it has been a slow and lengthy so I will try to keep things short.
  I have bene trying to bond Bubba (Spayed Female 4y) and Poe (Neutered Male 2y) for a total of 7 months. They have never shows aggression towards each other but have been very slow with trusting each other. This is where we are now:
  While in the playpen: Poe is almost always the initiator – He’ll first try to approach Bubba from the front, Get really close, Try to stuck his head underneath hers, and lay next her. Bubba will usually not move If he does this, but she will not allow him to stick his head under hers. If however Poe tries to approach Bubba from behind (I’m assuming to try and mount her), she will quickly move away. Occasionally, Bubba will initiate things – She always tries to smell his behind, but as soon as he turns around she’ll duck her head down And talk her chin underneath her neck.
  When not in the playpen, and simply separated by gate: they will often smelled each other face-to-face, and offer each other their head.However, neither one will begin grooming the other. After a few attempts of this nature, they will both “give up” and lay next to each other, eventually falling asleep.
  While all of this seems positive, things have not changed for the past 2 months despite my efforts. I need advice on how I should proceed next. Bubba seems Happy with the current status of things, while I can tell Poe Would like to move things forward. I would like them to be able to share the same space and complete the bonding process. Admittedly, I’m losing my confidence that this will ever happen.
  Advice?
  P.s. Other information that may be of importance/interest:
  While in the playpen, Bubba seems more interested in seeking my attention first, while Poe will always seek Bubba’s attention before mine. Poe will always produce territorial droppings (sometimes even pee) when in the playpen together. Bubba does not do this in the playpen, however, she does produce territorial droppings near the edge of her enclosure bordering with Poe’s enclosure. Bubba has a toy stuffed animal which she now mounts every time I place her back in her enclosure after a bonding exercise.
  ANY ADVICE WILL HELP. THANK YOU!
- 11/12/2017 at 6:06 PM
  SaRa
  Participant
  13 posts
  @LittlePuffyTail – Thank you! I wasn’t sure the original post worked, so I wrote another! Lol I apologize for the duplicate info!!
- 11/12/2017 at 9:40 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Oh my, 7 months is a very long time! Falling asleep near each other is a very good sign, especially if there is never any scuffling or aggression.
  
  A couple questions:
  
  How long are your sessions? Have you tried stressing? How about banana on the head?
  
  How have they progressed over the last 7 months? Where they fighting before, and have moved to this?
  
  Is there any aggression at all in their sessions? Fur pulling, lunging, grunting? Or just failed mounting and requests for grooms that aren’t met?
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 11/12/2017 at 10:12 PM
  Moo <3
  Participant
  35 posts
  It sounds like you need to shrink the space they are in when you have them together. When bonding, rabbits need to assert their position and find the alpha. If Bubba keeps avoiding Poe and hopping away when he tries to assert himself by humping, then their relationship will not progress very much. Where are they when you bond? I find that the bathroom tub or floor can be a good spot to bond. When Poe puts his head beneath Bubba, he is asking to be groomed by her, but it seems like Bubba does not want to reciprocate the groom. However, it is a very good sign that they lay next to each other in their pens! Do not lose confidence, try and find a new approach!
- 11/13/2017 at 8:54 AM
  SaRa
  Participant
  13 posts
  Hello DanaNM! Thank you for reaching out!
  
  To answer your questions:
  
  My sessions have ranged from 15 minutes to 2 hours. The past 2 months, the sessions have been 2 hours. I have tried stressing and banana. Stressing if fine, they have no issue being close to each other, I believe the problem might be dominance. Banana actually has not been successful.
  
  The bonding progression has gone as follows – When I first brought Poe home I did not immediately introduce them face to face. Poe was VERY small and was also not neutered. I did not begin the process until after he was neutered (6 months after I brought him home). But by then, unfortunately, I had to go visit an ill parent in Asia. I could not continue until I returned. During this period, my boyfriend whom I live with was looking after them. I was away for a long time.
  
  When I returned, I ACTUALLY begin the bonding process. Incidentally, I moved to a new house so the whole place was neutral – perfect for bonding! I bought a playpen. At first, they both could care less about the other. Two days later or so I pushed things a little: Bubba tried to smell Poe, he turned to her and she moved away flicking her feet and grunted. Then I tried to enter the playpen with them. Bubba immediately climbed on to me and was desperate for my attention while Poe was playing and being silly, then…Poe peed on me. So, I removed myself thinking they were fighting for my attention. I increased the time they were in the playpen, tried the banana trick, tried to push them together while petting them…none of that really worked, the only positive was that there was no fighting.
  
  Then I received terrible news and had to return to Asia. I was away for 3 months. I had to start over because while my boyfriend (now fiance) had no issue supervising them when separated, he was uncomfortable continuing the bonding without my supervision. However, things seemed to have remained the same. Bonding re-initiated: same deal, both bunnies chill but no interest in each other. After a week of this Poe tried harder and approached Bubba sticking his head under her. She refused it. Then he tried to approach her from behind and she would jump away startled but he never chased her. A few days later he tried again and this time chased her a little, I was ready to intervene if necessary, but the chase was always very brief and he was the first to give up. Then Poe started the territorial droppings while in the playpen, and Bubba, while not obviously stressed, did not seem to want to be in the playpen. So I tried changing locations, I removed the bottom of the playpen (thinking it might smell like Poe) and placed the playpen in a different room with tile floors and also made the pen smaller. Now Bubba tried to approach Poe, he would turn around and she would run. Then after a few days, she would smell him, he would turn around and she would offer her head and he just smelled her and then chinned her. Poe quickly began chinning everything nearby. After another week of no true progress, Poe finally tried to be more assertive, he approached her from behind and stuck his entire nose up against her (with his head really low) and she at first allowed him and then jumped away quickly. I think Poe might have tried to nip her behind but it was not very clear since he kinda has an overbite anyway and there was no fur in this mouth. He did this a couple of times but then would not chase. Bubba began then showing territorial behavior in her enclosure: droppings and mounting her stuffed animal. I tried to then place Bubba’s stuffed animal in Poe’s enclosure as a “dummy”. Poe would smell it, chin it, that’s it. After a week, I placed the dummy back in Bubba’s enclosure and she would mount it.
  
  AND THIS IS WHERE WE ARE NOW: they are ok with each other’s company until they try to establish a hierarchy. Here is my problem: I cannot tell who is the dominant bunny. Both of them clearly want the other to concede but neither one is aggressive or pushy about it. I do not know what to do.
  
  Sorry for the lenghtly reply.
- 11/13/2017 at 9:09 AM
  SaRa
  Participant
  13 posts
  Hello LucyKao!
  
  You are right, I think it’s a dominance issue. I use a playpen (without the bottom) to create a neutral area in the shape that I need around the house. I have changed locations several times and I have also made space smaller. I would like to assist in the establishment of a pecking order but I am having trouble understanding which rabbit is the dominant one.
  
  They both show signs of dominance: Poe has been the most overt… trying to push his face under Bubba and trying to chase her a few times, but even then he doesn’t seem too committed since he gives up almost immediately. Bubba also shows traits, when she approached him, she places her head down.
  
  I also have noticed some territorial insecurity: Poe will always soil the floor while in the playpen with Bubba. He also chins EVERYTHING any time he is in or out of his enclosure, he chins the furniture, toys, my cats, even me! (of course, he cannot do this in neutral areas as I keep him away from them). And Bubba who has always been very good with her litter box manners now produces droppings in her enclosure near the edge where Poe’s enclosure is. She also chins (although less then Poe) and now she very aggressively mounts her stuffed animal EVERY time I put her away at night.
  
  I would like to help…but idk who to help. LOL! I can’t pick who gets to be the boss! Do you have any insight on who it might be?
  
  P.s. In one of my previous answers, I have provided a detailed narrative of how the bonding process went which might help us understand which one of my bunnies is more likely the boss…it’s long so I understand if you don’t want to read it, regardless I appreciate any advise you’ll give!
- 11/13/2017 at 2:48 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Hi SaRa,
  
  This is all very helpful info. So, if I understand correctly, the 7 months has not been constant dates every day? There were a few long breaks? If so, that makes me much more hopeful about this pairing.
  
  Also the fact that they don’t fight is very good, and that you don’t often have to intervene. To me, they just sound like they are being stubborn little buns! Since bonding has been going on a while, they are probably getting used to the current arrangement, and know that they will always get to go back to being separate after, so no need to actually sort out dominance.
  
  I would suggest some longer sessions, even marathoning if you can. (Marathoning is when you put them together in neutral space, with the intention of never separating them again. They must be closely supervised 24/7 until they are 100% bonded and living in their permanent home, so this isn’t for those who have strict work schedules!). With both of my pairs, they got to a stalemate like this, where they were just tolerating each other, but not fully accepting one another. In both cases long sessions were what finally worked for them. See if you can build up to 4, then 6, then 8 hour sessions. Set a goal for the time you want, and then only push to that time if things are going well (no building aggression). You can also try a new bonding area (even moving the pen to a new spot and cleaning it well, just to shake things up a bit.
  
  Once they are bonded, it’s often hard to tell who is actually dominant. In some cases, I believe they both actually think that they are, but they have learned to trust on another and know that the other bunny isn’t going to hurt them.
  
  Have you also been doing pre-bonding this whole time (cage swaps, etc.)?
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 11/13/2017 at 6:48 PM
  SaRa
  Participant
  13 posts
  Hello DanaNm,
  
  Thank <g class="gr_ gr_63 gr-alert gr_gramm gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim Punctuation only-ins replaceWithoutSep" id="63" data-gr-id="63">you</g> <g class="gr_ gr_33 gr-alert gr_spell gr_inline_cards gr_run_anim ContextualSpelling ins-del" id="33" data-gr-id="33">soo</g> much for your insight! </p>
  
  I will DEFINITELY try the marathon bonding this weekend as I have time off the next…if things go well I might be “done” by the end of next week? LOL
  
  You are correct, I think they are just really stubborn. But I also think that they are smart enough to know that I am also there during bonding time supervising. I believe that they both trust me a lot such that they know nothing “bad” can happen to them when I am around…which maybe makes them less inclined to push boundaries with each other.
  
  I was able to train both very easily. Poe likes agility exercises and Bubba actually can fetch things! …they are both eager to please. I thought that maybe the issue with them not bonding quickly is me. Perhaps they don’t feel the need to bond because I give them too much attention individually? Is that possible?
- 11/13/2017 at 7:58 PM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  Hmm, being in the bonding area with them can definitely change the dynamic, so at this point you shouldn’t be in the pen with them, and be out of their sight if possible. Of course be very close and still supervising them, but it’s a lot like having a chaperone at a school dance! You want to be able to intervene quickly if needed, but also for them to behave naturally around each other.
  
  In prep for your marathon, I recommend reading through some bonding journals on this forum that marathoned, just to get a sense of what you’re in for.
  
  I know the search bar within the site is down, but if you google “binky bunny marathon bonding” and you’ll get lots of results.
  
  The important part is not to move to semi-neutral space until you’ve got lots of positive behaviors (grooming, snuggling, sharing food, generally being relaxed), and to wait until those behaviors are “cemented” before you move.
  
  With my last two, we spent about 3-4 days in each step. So, they were in neutral for about 2 days until I saw grooming. I then waited another 2 days in neutral to make sure that behavior was “cemented” (and no fights occured in that time). Then we moved to semi-neutral. Same thing happened. Waited for grooming, then let it “cement” for 2 days. Then finally moved to their permanent home, and supervised 24/7 for about 5 days until I was comfortable leaving them alone.
  
  So mine took about a week and a half of marathoning. Other’s report 2 weeks. If you need to separate them because you have to leave them unsupervised, don’t worry. Just make sure neither rabbit is left in the bonding area without the other, and resume the session once you can supervise again.
  
  Also be sure they are both eating and pooping normally during the marathon! If either rabbit is getting too stressed you’ll need to take a break and move more slowly.
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 11/14/2017 at 8:18 AM
  SaRa
  Participant
  13 posts
  Soon after I began the process, I refrained sitting in the playpen with them because I noticed that they would immediately seek my attention. Bubba almost immediately would come to me and climb in my lap, while Poe would first try to engage with Bubba without luck and then come to me and chin me…But I also noticed that if I’m not in the playpen with them, they both would keep a close eye on me and what I did. I guess I’ll try to be out of sight and maybe ask my fiance to supervise without me.
  
  I think I’ll be able to do the marathon bonding. I have read some journals and there is a lot of good info! Hopefully, this will work.
  
  Thank you for your help!
- 11/14/2017 at 8:54 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  You’re welcome! Keep us posted!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
- 11/14/2017 at 8:59 AM
  DanaNM
  Moderator
  9054 posts
  You’re welcome! Keep us posted!
  
  . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.
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