Posted By BunNoob on 10/12/2017 8:12 AM

Didn’t you move recently? I wonder if they’re having issues now that its all neutral again and some dominance issues are coming into play? Sorry that’s happened! I don’t know what you could do besides monitor them! You don’t want to split them up and risk damaging their bond. But you also don’t want fighting bunnies! Do they only have one room are they free roam? Maybe restricting their space so it’s back to a “bonding session” type of feel? Sorry I’m not very experienced in bonding, I just wonder if scaling back their space might help them work through all the changes together.

Yeah we moved two weeks ago. I expected some dominance issues from the beginning but they behaved as normal. I suppose though Peanut perhaps didn’t feel comfortable enough at first to challenge for dominance? I know you’re not supposed to bond new bunnies right away as they need to settle in so maybe this is similar concept. Since everything this morning  (I think it was between 5 and 6am) they’ve been monitored by either my partner or me and they are acting as though nothing happened :-/ In fact they’ve groomed each other quite a bit so maybe they’ve come to some arrangement?! 

They’ve got free roam of one room at all times (its their own room ) and access to the hallway during the day tho Peanut hasn’t kept the rabbit room. 

I’m going to use the hoover later which might act as as form of stressing. 

Posted By DanaNM on 10/12/2017 10:49 AM

Hmmmm, troubling…but really good that no one got hurt, because that would be a tragedy. I remember once with Bertha and Bunston, I woke up in the night to find them chasing each other around their condo, out of nowhere. Nothing ever came of it after that, and they went back to being inseparable.

My first thought would be to get them a check up, to make sure one doesn’t have some underlying medical issue that is triggering an insecurity. I’ve been dealing with Moose’s tooth issues, and I do notice Bertha’s attitude towards him fluctuates a little based on how he’s feeling. When he’s in pain, he doesn’t groom her as much, marks more, and she gets kinda grumpy at him. When he’s feeling good and on pain meds, they are much more relaxed.

I also think moving probably had a lot to do with this. I’ve heard that sometimes couples can try to re-sort out their dominance from time to time, and I’m guessing the fact that you moved recently probably triggered it. The fact that she groomed him after he humped her means that maybe their dominance flipped? But sounds like she is more or less OK with that, since they wen’t back to snuggling and grooming afterwards?

My next thought is to do a stress bonding session with them (the car ride to the vet might do the trick), followed by banana on everyone’s heads to soothe things over.

Can you keep an eye on them for the next day or two? In my experience, problems usually flair up at night, so even watching them at night would prob be enough.

Really happy to hear Bertha and Bunston’s bond was never damaged. I’very got them booked in for a check up and vaccinations on November 1st. Do you think it’s worth trying to bring it forward? I’ve not seen any worrying symptoms but what do you think? I know when Buttercup was really poorly before, Peanut was actually more attentive. 

I’m not sure whether their dominance has flipped as Buttercup has always been the more generous groomer but as I’ve seen them snuggling and grooming each other, I guess they’re happy with whatever agreement they’ve come too? I don’t work so I can monitor them like crazy thankfully

Posted By DanaNM on 10/12/2017 1:18 PM

I feel like Nov 1 is probably close enough… but maybe if you see an uptick in marking or more chasing, try to bump it up? It seems most likely that it was from the move though.

This article has a good summary of things: http://janabrock.com/2017/02/24/when-bonded-rabbits-fight/

This is a tough call, because I think you’ll need to make a judgement call on how bad the chasing was, and whether it warrants full separation and re-bonding. The fact that they went right back to snuggling makes me think they are OK… but trust your gut on this.

I think if anything more chasing or unwanted mounting happens in the next few days you will probably need to re-bond them to be on the safe side though. The bunny I tried to bond with Bertha before Moose (but after Bunston passed away) never truly bonded, and whatever weak bond they had broke. They got in a real fight (where they were locked on, biting each other, not just trying to mount), but then went back to normal… but then got in a worse fight a week later and Bertha was injured to the point of needing a suture. BUT there were some key differences. Bertha and this fellow had NEVER snuggled or groomed, they basically just acted like roommates, so I don’t believe they were really bonded. He was kind of an odd bunny, so the rescue thought this was OK and that their relationship would develop over time (it didn’t). The other big difference was that he actually got hurt during the first quarrel, where the boy bunny had gotten a bite that broke the skin. In this case, I should have separated them… but I didn’t realize he had actually been hurt.

Since your two bonded pretty easily with the marathon, your new house is pretty much neutral (?), and thankfully you can stay home and watch them, I think the safe thing is to treat them as though they are in the “cementing” stage of a new bond (like when you move from semi-neutral to neutral). Maybe this is analogous to the scuffle they got in on day 5 of your first marathon with them?

You could maybe even move them to a neutral spot of the house for a couple days, then move them back into the bunny room as a kind of reset.

Thank you for your input Dana, really appreciate it! I’ll keep the original vet appointment unless anything else happens. I’m fairly certain it’s the new environment and Peanut feeling confident enough to try it. I’m only speculating but that’s my theory. It sounds silly but I’m not even sure how bad the chasing was. I mean, it sounded like they were crashing into things but by the time I got to the room I saw some circling – it was definitely not the mating ritual sort of circling but they also didn’t appear to be grabbing on to each other’s bum/tails. And there was no fur pulled, although Buttercup had a tufty part on her butt afterwards so fur pulling possibly attempted? The tuft was loosened enough that I was able to pull it gently off of her. But no tufts lying around. I clapped at this point hoping the noise would stop them and once I’d climbed over the gate, Peanut’s tail was raised and then he was humping her face. Once he stopped, she then ran away and that was that. All over. It’s hard for me to judge because I was panicking and obviously didn’t witness everything. I have seen Buttercup chase Peanut away several times before when he’s feeling randy but those ‘chases’ are very short lived and never escalate so this was different. I think what scares me most is not knowing what would have happened had I not intervened. 

I feel like they are okay. I mean they’ve spent the whole day being totally normal, snuggling and grooming and sharing hay etc. They both even tried to steal the treat out of the other’s mouth (this is very common!) and nothing happened. There’s also been no territorial poops or pees all day from Peanut which has to have some significance? 

I’m treating the next few days as you said – like a cementing period. If we can get through the next few days and nights without incident, I’ll be happy with leaving them. 

Posted By DanaNM on 10/12/2017 1:18 PM

I feel like Nov 1 is probably close enough… but maybe if you see an uptick in marking or more chasing, try to bump it up? It seems most likely that it was from the move though.

This article has a good summary of things: http://janabrock.com/2017/02/24/when-bonded-rabbits-fight/

This is a tough call, because I think you’ll need to make a judgement call on how bad the chasing was, and whether it warrants full separation and re-bonding. The fact that they went right back to snuggling makes me think they are OK… but trust your gut on this.

I think if anything more chasing or unwanted mounting happens in the next few days you will probably need to re-bond them to be on the safe side though. The bunny I tried to bond with Bertha before Moose (but after Bunston passed away) never truly bonded, and whatever weak bond they had broke. They got in a real fight (where they were locked on, biting each other, not just trying to mount), but then went back to normal… but then got in a worse fight a week later and Bertha was injured to the point of needing a suture. BUT there were some key differences. Bertha and this fellow had NEVER snuggled or groomed, they basically just acted like roommates, so I don’t believe they were really bonded. He was kind of an odd bunny, so the rescue thought this was OK and that their relationship would develop over time (it didn’t). The other big difference was that he actually got hurt during the first quarrel, where the boy bunny had gotten a bite that broke the skin. In this case, I should have separated them… but I didn’t realize he had actually been hurt.

Since your two bonded pretty easily with the marathon, your new house is pretty much neutral (?), and thankfully you can stay home and watch them, I think the safe thing is to treat them as though they are in the “cementing” stage of a new bond (like when you move from semi-neutral to neutral). Maybe this is analogous to the scuffle they got in on day 5 of your first marathon with them?

You could maybe even move them to a neutral spot of the house for a couple days, then move them back into the bunny room as a kind of reset.

Thank you for your input Dana, really appreciate it! I’ll keep the original vet appointment unless anything else happens. I’m fairly certain it’s the new environment and Peanut feeling confident enough to try it. I’m only speculating but that’s my theory. It sounds silly but I’m not even sure how bad the chasing was. I mean, it sounded like they were crashing into things but by the time I got to the room I saw some circling – it was definitely not the mating ritual sort of circling but they also didn’t appear to be grabbing on to each other’s bum/tails. And there was no fur pulled, although Buttercup had a tufty part on her butt afterwards so fur pulling possibly attempted? The tuft was loosened enough that I was able to pull it gently off of her. But no tufts lying around. I clapped at this point hoping the noise would stop them and once I’d climbed over the gate, Peanut’s tail was raised and then he was humping her face. Once he stopped, she then ran away and that was that. All over. It’s hard for me to judge because I was panicking and obviously didn’t witness everything. I have seen Buttercup chase Peanut away several times before when he’s feeling randy but those ‘chases’ are very short lived and never escalate so this was different. I think what scares me most is not knowing what would have happened had I not intervened. 

I feel like they are okay. I mean they’ve spent the whole day being totally normal, snuggling and grooming and sharing hay etc. They both even tried to steal the treat out of the other’s mouth (this is very common!) and nothing happened. There’s also been no territorial poops or pees all day from Peanut which has to have some significance? 

I’m treating the next few days as you said – like a cementing period. If we can get through the next few days and nights without incident, I’ll be happy with leaving them. 

Oops, might have jinxed the territorial poop thing as he did just do two poops on the floor but then he immediately hopped up to Buttercup and groomed her.

Slept outside the bunny room last night so I could see right through the gate. No incident to report. Just normal behaviour including some flopping and snuggling together  Both have been normal all day today too. Apart from Peanut peeing several times in that same rug spot. Might have found the reason why though – we thought we had cleaned it thoroughly but after lifting up their carrier which is right next to ultimate pee spot, we saw some urine that we must have missed before. Perhaps he was smelling this still? He’s peed once since then,  ironically in the carrier this time but hopefully that’s the end of it now 

This brings me to my next point, it’s all rambley and I’m probably just trying to convince myself but here’s the thing: I’m not even 100% sure there was a mad chase last night. Bare with me…at exactly the same time this morning, Buttercup started sprinting and binkying. It wasn’t as loud as the morning before but alas, coincidence? Also, as I mentioned before, I didn’t actually see this great chase. I just heard a ruckus and assumed. It sounded like very quick, well, sprinting yet by the time I got to the rabbit room all ‘chasing’ had stopped? Surely, if they were really zooming after each other it wouldn’t have come to a halt within 3 seconds of it starting? On top of that, there was no toys or anything mislodged, I. E. Litter trays hadn’t been crashed into or anything like that. No toys flung/kicked. Now, of course I did walk in on some circling. Sometimes when Buttercup is all excited, Peanut gets a little too excited and a little too interested in sniffing her butt. This usually leads to sniffy circling that I’ve mentioned tons before on various threads – It’s completely harmless. Is that what I was witnessing? Did I just assume the worse because I’d already assumed they’d chased? Peanut did face hump, which I tried to stop and when he’d finished, Buttercup ran and he followed for about 3 seconds then they both stopped. When they chase each other, it’s these uneventful 3 second chases. I’m totally questioning myself and my judgement. Buttercup was grunting at him, but she really doesn’t tolerate her rump being sniffed so I’m not surprised if she got a little mad. 

It just seems weird that if they had chased each other so drastically as I assumed,  they wouldn’t have immediately gone back to snuggling. When they had a scuffle during the marathon bond, it took half an hour for them to groom and longer for actual snuggs to start again (couple hours at least) so why were they so happy to get back to cuddling? I’m completely confused! 

The only odd part is the territorial poop business. I’m so baffled and totally unsure of what I actually saw and heard. Apologies for the long ramble. 

Posted By DanaNM on 10/12/2017 4:10 PM

Posted By sarahthegemini on 10/12/2017 2:24 PM

Oops, might have jinxed the territorial poop thing as he did just do two poops on the floor but then he immediately hopped up to Buttercup and groomed her.

Oh Peanut! Haha. I’ve recently given up trying to assign meaning to poops, because I was starting to make myself crazy. 

The chase with Bunston and Bertha sounds similar to that. They were a funny couple, because Bunston was definitely the slave, but Bertha would shove her head so far under him to be groomed that we would just start humping her head… and she wouldn’t care, because she thought she was being groomed. He was about 1/3 her size, so it was quite the sight. 

Sorry, probably irrelevant reminiscing, I just miss the little guy every day. 

Oh how naive 

Posted By DanaNM on 10/15/2017 10:07 PM

How have they been doing the last couple days?

Thank you for asking, I wanted to update but didn’t want to jinx anymore haha! Both buns have been absolutely fine. It seems whatever happened is over and dealt with. I slept outside the bun’s room the first night and my partner slept with them the 2nd night and nothing out of the ordinary to report! Just lots of sprinting and binkies and lots of laying together  Quite a bit of grooming too.

Peanut’s peeing on the rug seems to have stopped too. So great news all around!

I figured if we make it 48 hours with nothing worrying occurring, we’re in the clear I’m still paranoid and immediately check if I hear loud running but it’s always one of them doing the bunny 500s and binkying