How annoying/upsetting!

1. I don’t believe that your two will never bond. There seem to be a lot of very positive elements in their relationship, and I think it’s just a matter of time. They obviously don’t hate each other, and I always thought rabbits that were ‘unbondable’ truly hated each other, rather than liked each other but were a bit confused.

2. When I was looking for a professional to bond my bunnies, two of them recommended that I stress bonded them on the journey there by putting them both in one carrier. I think the idea is it’s so cramped that they can’t fight, but I don’t think yours are fighting so not sure if that would benefit.

3. I agree with you on that, it sounds territorial to me. Professionals I’ve spoken to have said that mounting is either dominance or hormonal, so that sounds like a very bizarre reason to me, and I’m not convinced bunnies have that much logic.

As you know, mine have now made significant progress (I’m still hesistant to call them bonded, but my bonder did), and the thing that really solidified their relationship was leaving them together for longer. I know you work the same sort of hours as me, but could you try from Friday evening to Sunday and see how that goes? I think that extra push of more time together helps push through bumps and they get used to the situation more, rather than having a session then going back to their normal life, where you’re sort of starting from the beginning (not totally obviously, but they probably repeat the same old behaviours) again.

Second what’s already been said. That just seems silly to me, given the positive behavior you have already.

I really think you’ll need to set aside some days for a marathon to push past the current plateau.

I do agree that your stress bonding session doesn’t count because they weren’t near each other. The idea is that they snuggle for comfort, so the bin or carrier is supposed to make sure that happens.

I definitely don’t think you should feel disheartened yet. Keep going as you are until you can manage a longer session at the weekend, and hopefully then you’ll make some progress/see where they stand a bit better.

Hope you’re feeling better too!

Honestly, they are just being stubborn, but given the behaviors you’re describing, I’m pretty confident they will get through it.

My first pair took 3 months… the first month they wanted to fight. the second 6 weeks they ignored each other, and Bunston would sit frozen in fear in the corner, Bertha would ignore him. Finally after 2 12 hour sessions we had a break through, where Bunston groomed Bertha, then it was all downhill from there.

With Bertha and Moose, things were more like your two, but I didn’t get any grooming at all until day 3 of marathoning (and that was after about a month of long sessions). And I felt like things were going pretty well (I also thing your two sound like they are doing pretty well too). So please don’t get too disheartened. I read through a lot of accounts of situations similar to yours when I was working with Bertha and Moose, where they both were dominant personalities, and just weren’t quite getting there. Time and time again people said that marathoning and stress helped them sort things out. The marathon helps the bunnies realize that they MUST come to terms with the fact that the other bunny isn’t going away.

You are partially right about a fight breaking out in a carrier, especially during the first few sessions when you aren’t quite sure how they will react, but the idea is that the car ride is stressful enough to prevent them from fighting. I didn’t use a carrier early on, when I was worried about a fight breaking out. I used a rubber maid tub, so I could reach in and split them up if needed, but still keep them from jumping out. But once Bertha and Moose were spending hours together without incident, I did end up using a carrier, and it worked out great.

When they do have their nose-to-nose “stand-offs”, do you need to intervene? What happens if you do nothing? Does a chase ensue? Or circling? Or boxing? If not, it’s not likely they will start all out fighting. Bertha and Moose still do this, but will usually end up just snuggling and falling asleep, content even if neither grooms. Or one will hop away if they don’t feel like it (or re-position so they are side by side).

Totally understandable! My first time I bonded, I didn’t even know this forum existed, but was able to get in touch with a very experienced person through a yahoo group and get some advice. I came very close to giving up a few times, and felt like I was just being cruel to continue. But I just knew in my heart that Bunston really needed a friend, and once he could get past his fear they would be home free (and they were).

If you read back through your journal, I think you’ll see that you’ve definitely made progress, as they are now OK with litter boxes, as they weren’t before. And no issues in the past 2 weeks.

See if you can try not saying anything when they go nose-to-nose and see what happens. At this point, I’d only make a noise or squirt them if there’s boxing or a chase longer than 3 seconds.

I’m genuinely surprised that you got such poor advice. I mean, of course there’s always a risk that two rabbits won’t bond but your pair aren’t showing signs of bunnies that won’t bond…They’re showing very positive signs so what the hell :-/

Sure it’s taking a little while but you know what, sometimes that happens and that’s okay! Please don’t panic that yours haven’t bonded in a month. You’re seeing progress which is what’s REALLY important. Remember, my pair had a very snuggly love at first sight thing and it still took a fortnight so the fact that it’s only been a month for your pair isn’t bad. It’s really not long at all in the grand scheme of things. And think about how Ophelia reacted when she first smelled Quincy. They’ve come a long way. So keep it up and forget what that plonker said!

I’m the opposite of a bonding expert, but I also think your bunnies can definitely bond! From my own failed attempt, we NEVER had any positive experiences between the two, like no snuggling, no grooming, no being near to each other without aggression. I spent a month or more with them like that, daily sessions, and our bonder was still hopeful they could be bonded. It was only after she had them for a week straight of marathoning with no improvement and many fights that she and I had to call it.

You’re nowhere near that level and it really sounds like you are making good progress! I really really know how overwhelming it can be, but don’t loose hope. Thor and I have our paws crossed for your lovely pair

Did you manage a weekend marathon? How are they doing?

Honestly your rabbits are just being stubborn, but they sound like they are very likely to eventually be bonded.
When I was bonding, for the first month, despite some positive behaviour, I had horrendous bunny tornadoes and everything. Peep got some nasty bites and I wanted to throw in the towel and get a different rabbit (the shelter told me it would be no problem) but boyfriend said he wasnt giving Peep back so I decided to persevere.

It took time, weeks of increasing sessions during a horrible time ( end of term papers, starting a thesis project, getting evicted)
But it got there.
Dont be afraid to take breaks, or even just drag the 2 of them up on to the couch with you so you can chill and watch tv while petting the two side by side.

Your rabbits sound like they like each other, they just need to figure out the dominance thing, putting them in a cat carrier to stress them is something i’ve done-works fairly well. They cant get going in terms of fighting and they HAVE to snuggle together.

I really wouldnt be discouraged if I were you, I think shelters tend to find easy bonds-they have lots of bunnies that are already in a new environment, so all of it is essentially neutral, including the humans, plus with the number they get through there is no point spending a month on a bond when you have the chance of a simple bond with another pairing

It does get like that. It’s horrible.
Is there anywhere you can take them they’ve never been? Someone’s house or out in their pen? And then ask your husband or a friend to watch them instead of you.

I found that to be a turning point with my pair (I “abandoned ” them for a week with my family while I was moving and sorting out the house) when I started bonding again they were much more open to accepting to one another.

Even asking a shelter to hold them for a bit might help?

Not necessarily, my home where I bonded yumi and Peep was Yumis home first. She had been there as recently as two months prior by herself, so wasn’t neutral space. It was just arranged different. The current space you are using is probably no longer neutral either. It will smell of you and each of them, so really it’s now a shared space

A change of scenery might help, especially if you are better able to monitor them for longer sessions. I would clean the carpet, then lay down a shower curtain or tarp, then a unfamiliar blanket on top of that to block the scent and appearance of the carpet. Then make sure to block their view of their surroundings with blankets or cardboard, and you should be good.

It’s pretty normal for them to be tense when you move to a new area. Especially before they are bonded (and even sometimes when they are bonded), they often have to go through all their “introductions” again.

This is even true from session to session, which is why marathoning seems to work so well. They don’t have to spend so much time going through the initial dominance displays.

As far as the litter boxes go, I think if they seem fine with them in, leave them, especially since you are treating this as another neutral space, and they are the boxes they are familiar with.

What happens when you walk aren’t there? Tense is OK, and expected at first (they are bunnies in unfamiliar land, after all).

I think at this point you do need to limit intervention on your part, unless it’s to break up a chase or circling. You want them to be going to each other for comfort, not to you. I know it’s really hard to feel like you are ignoring them, but it is necessary. I do think the smooshing is great when the bunnies are fighting and need to just settle down, but at this point I think yours are beyond that point. And if Ophelia is going to be the boss (which is sounds like she prob will be), then you will need to allow her to act like kind of a bossy brat to Quincy so he gets the message. I know Bertha was being SUCH a brat to Moose in the few days before he finally started grooming her more, and it was hard to watch, but she had to be very convinced that he wasn’t going to try any funny business, and it sounds like Ophelia is in that zone with Quincy. Remember, only intervene with circling, chasing for more than 3 seconds, or hard biting. And try not to put yourself in between them if at all possible (I would always have my vacuum plugged in near the bonding area and would flip it on anytime a chase would happen).

I know with my first pair, I probably made it take way longer than it should have because I would intervene too often.

That sounds like a very positive session. Bertha and Moose have a one bunny per box policy too :p

If it’s just a nip or lunge that he reacts to, try not to do or say anything, but yes, it is really really hard! We all just want them to play nice all the time, but nipping is how they communicate, so it’s her way of saying “buzz off”, so him moving means he got the message. I actually get more concerned when one nips and the other doesn’t leave! At this point, it is very unlikely that a nip or two will immediately turn into a tornado. If she nips, and he turns to face her, that can indicate a scuffle brewing, but still try to give it a few seconds to see what happens. If they start boxing or circling, then you can diffuse it. I would try to count to 3 (slowly!) before doing anything. When I was marathoning often I was sitting near them but not actually looking at them, and sometimes I would hear some commotion. The instinct is to stop it immediately, but it almost always would resolve itself after a second or two, and I think that it was all important for them finally accepting the hierarchy.

I will also mention that getting into these longer sessions, it’s normal to have ups and downs within a session. Mine would often be a little antsy for like 30 min, then settle down for a couple hours, then antsy/nippy/jumpy for 15-20 min, then settle back down again for several hours, and repeat. I think it’s all important for them to be like “Oh… this other bunny still isn’t going away… well I guess we better get used to it.”

Didn’t you recently buy a pop-up pen thing for outside? That would be neutral I assume? You could also even try outside tbh, I think at this point try different things to get them through this bump.

I ignored nipping between my two unless it escalated, which after the first week or so it didn’t. Sometimes Luna would just nip Atlas to get him to move, and he would overreact and run off like a crazy bun, but then that was it. If I had kept intervening there then he doesn’t realise what he’s doing to annoy her.

I really doubt your two are going to have a bad fight at this stage. Of course, you should still monitor them, but don’t let your fear of that stop them from working it out themselves.

Can you take a book or something with you? I always had a book in the bathroom, and would only look up when there was noise. It makes it easier to not stress if you have a distraction, but you’re still there and close enough to stop anything immediately.

I think you’re doing so well, try not to get too discouraged. Remember also, my bonding was Luna and Atlas’s second go round after a professional had given up, so it will happen eventually! <3

Haha no, I thought that might be reassuring. There were many tears the day the professional bonder said she couldn’t bond them, while I overdramatically tried to decide which one to keep  then I realised I was being ridiculous  She tried a few times and they wouldn’t stop fighting and had to be separated for their own safety (thankfully i didn’t witness it, I wouldn’t have coped!). So yes, mine were relatively easy this time round, but that was coming back from a very low point!

Sounds like you’re doing well outside. Can you use the outside pen in the house? Or is there not enough space? I also read that spraying some vanilla around masks other smells and makes non-neutral places at least smell neutral.

Rabbits do nip in their grooming, sometimes when Atlas is licking me he gives me a little nip. So I imagine she’s just trying to groom him and he’s overreacting (I would watch Atlas massively overreact to Luna sometimes too, even though I could see perfectly well that she hadn’t hurt him). Hopefully in time Ophelia will learn that he doesn’t like it and will change her behaviour accordingly? I think you need to leave them to sort that out themselves though.

When you say they’re acting up in the kitchen, what do you mean? Can you just leave them to work through it?

On another note, we had a huge storm in the UK called Ophelia yesterday and it made me think of your bunny! 

It sounds exhausting!

When they pick fights does it escalate to dangerous levels where you have to intervene? Or is it just a bit of nipping?

I’m all out of suggestions, but sending support!

All I have to add is that they may be learning if they start bickering they will get to leave the kitchen (and/or will get some pets). So, be very aware of when you choose to end the date, and when you choose to pet them. If you think they will fight after 2 hours, and you don’t have the energy to push past to 4, then end it at 2. If you always aim for 3, and they start fighting at 3, and then you end it shortly after that, they are learning that they can get what they want by behaving that way!

If they do squabble, try to wait until they are both lounging comfortably again for at least 10-15 minutes before ending the date. And try your hardest not to pet them to make that happen. They can be manipulative little creatures (but really they are just being positively reinforced for behaviors you don’t like)!