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Forum BONDING The Journey continues – Theodore and Luna

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    • Tessie
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        So we’ve started trying to bond Loony and Teddy 

        It’s exciting and stressful! 

        Today we tried having them in a little pen in the garden. Teddy tried to mount Luna which then resulted in fighting which didn’t really stop. 

        So we figured we’d try stress bonding, which I think went well. 

        We put them on top of the washing machine and they were terrified, bless them! 

        They snuggled for a minute or so and then we took them off and kept them separate for a few minutes and now they’re back in their pens. I wanted to try and leave them on the machine a bit longer but my boyfriend said quit while we’re ahead! 

        So, the journey begins! 

        Questions:

        Did we do the stress bonding right? I’m not sure how long we’re supposed to leave them and what counts as a success? 

        Should we do that again? Should I expect them to be friendlier to each other now?


      • MoxieMeadows
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          I would say you’re on the right track, like your boyfriend said, take it slow, you don’t want to try too hard and ruin everything you’ve accomplished. It might be hard to bond them if your male rabbit isn’t fixed yet, because he most likely will keep doing the behavior mentioned above. I wish you luck!


        • Tessie
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            He is neutered, and some mounting is to be expected I think

            Can anyone else offer any advice?


          • Mocha
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              You’re doing it right Start out with short sessions maybe 5-10 minutes and then you can grow from then. In my opinion, stress bonding works pretty well. You can use a dustpan to make a little wall between them if they start fighting. I also reccomd you putting them in a carrier and going on a car ride. The noises and movement can scare them. Once you think they are fully bonded, they will fight a little as do my bunnies (growling, lunging) but if they start biting each other, seperate them.

              Mounted is expected to show dominance, but don’t let the male mount her head as this is really dangerous.

              Hope I helped!!!!!!!!!


            • Tessie
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                Thanks very much for the help!

                For the stress bonding, should I do it again? And how long are you supposed to do it for?


              • Mocha
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                  Yes. You should do the stress bonding again. While bonding my bunnies, I did it everyday for 2 weeks and then I put them in my shower under my supervision for 1 week for about 20 minutes. I started for a very short amount of time (5 minutes) and I gradually added about 5 minutes per session. Do it until you’re bunnies seem really friendly with each other and bonded.

                  Good luck!!!!!!!!!


                • Tessie
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                    I’m going to try the washing machine again today, I’ll post a video later!


                  • Tessie
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                      So, we haven’t done the washing machine yet, but we tried something else I’d like people’s opinion on! 

                      So, Teddy was in his pen and Luna was outside, and…. this is going to sound stupid, but… we squished them up against each other through the bars and petted them and gave them treats. 

                      It worked really well on the whole, I think?
                      They sort of sat there nose to nose, sort of snuggled, and were fairly happy. 
                      We petted them most of the time and gave them treats. 

                      There were a few nips on the nose, so we said ‘NO’ and them made them snuggle again. 
                      Basically they stay still when we pet them, but after a few seconds of no petting they get tempted and nip each other again. We did this once before with similar success (ish). It seems whichever of them is in the cage is more aggressive. 
                      Towards the end Teddy nipped Luna’s ear which really freaked her out But she’s okay. I know you’re not supposed to end on a bad note so we snuggled some more before separating. 

                      So yeah, on the whole I feel like it went well? 
                      I mean, they only did it cause we were there, but they still did it, right? 
                      Should I be pleased? Should I continue with this or is it pointless? 


                    • tanlover14
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                        Where is this makeshift “cage” area? Is it a place either of them has EVER been? If so, I wouldn’t continue with that technique. If either bunny recognizes the “caged” area enough to make it their spot, they will become territorial and more aggressive over that specific area. I, personally, do not like separating them for bonding like this. It does not help encourage the forward movement of bonding. They NEED to interact to bond and this hinders some of the interactions they should be engaging in. The inability to interact but the forcing together could also end up causing more aggression (as they will become frustrated with not being able to interact fully) and will cause increased annoyance for both.

                        Stress bonding is GREAT for helping them learn to trust one another. There is no harm in continued stress bonding Stress bonding can be done as long as you think is necessary. I have done it for long periods of time when they are really being aggressive and shorter when they are fine together. You’re using the washer/dryer technique so I would try putting them in the laundry basket (or whatever you have them in) without it running to see what happens. If they become aggressive, turn the dryer back on to quiet them down and put them back on alert. The increased stress will hone in their natural instincts to come together to fight off danger as a group – much stronger than a single rabbit facing a danger alone!


                      • Slowebot
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                          Some people move from stress bonding directly into neutral territory bonding. So if you have success during stress bonding and you feel comfortable trying something new, like tanlover14 said maybe turn the drier off or you can even move them to the bathtub. I used stress bonding to make sure they wouldn’t attack each other and then would move to neutral zones. If they regressed in any way, chasing, lunging or even if they were just avoiding each other later into the bonding process and I needed more interaction from them, I stressed them again. I used stress bonding more of a warm up rather than a stage to spend time on if that makes sense.

                          Making sure they are completely okay with each other in a neutral zone is key before moving onto anything even relatively semi-neutral. Even the mere scent of home can make a bunny aggressive an territorial so it is important to cement trust in a neutral zone first in order for any rabbit to accept another rabbit in its territory even for a second.

                          One way to shift from neutral to semi-neutral is to create a neutral zone in a semi-neutral area by cleaning the floors with vinegar and covering the walls of the pen the bunnies are in with something neutral scented like cardboard. Then as bonding time goes on and they accept each other you can slowly remove these walls until they are fully in the semi-neutral zone. Then you can literally move the semi-neutral zone gradually toward the permanent home!

                          I found that when my bunnies were separated by mesh or cage their actions were completely different than how they would react with each other without the barrier. I think they understand the barrier as a barrier and so they don’t feel the need to be super aggressive so the way my bunnies acted around each other over a barrier was deceiving to what they really felt (which was hard core aggression). But this was just my bunnies and my bunnies do not in anyway reflect all bunnies all over the world so I can of course be wrong haha, but just continue to proceed with caution!

                          Something that really helped with progress that I was skeptical about was the banana on the head trick to force one bunny to groom the other. This ended up being one sided because only one bunny liked banana, curious I know. But I think it’d be a good way to end bonding sessions. Anything that is not aggression is a good note to end on at first. Grooming, cuddling or flopping in the vicinity of the other are all pluses and should be a bonus goal!


                        • Tessie
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                            Hmmm. Okay, thanks for your thoughts guys!
                            So we reckon that was fairly pointless. Nevermind
                            I’ll do the washing machine again today and let you know how it goes!

                            We’re pretty short on neutral territory in the house, which makes it a bit tricky.
                            The only real option is the garden, and last time we tried that they fought anyway, so I definitely think the stress bonding is the way to go…
                            It’s also worth mentioning that they live next door to one another, so before and after bonding sessions, they’re still right next to one another. I feel like this might not be helping, but there’s no where else to put them.


                          • Tessie
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                              We’re on top of the washing machine and we have some ear licking!
                              How long do we do this for?


                            • Tessie
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                                We tried in the carrier but on the washing machine and they fought
                                Back to just on the washing machine. :/


                              • Tessie
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                                  So, all in all we were probably on the washing machine for half an hour. 
                                  It was good I think. Like I said, at one point my boyfriend got a bit overly ambitious and we put them in their carrier on the washing machine, and that was nasty 

                                  On the whole though, snuggling, and a bit of ear licking. 

                                  Cute! 

                                  What next?
                                  How often/long do we do this for?


                                • Tessie
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                                    Oh yeah, and how do I know when to move on to neutral territory? (ie. not stress bonding)


                                  • Tessie
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                                      Bump


                                    • LongEaredLions
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                                        Do this until you can trust them to sit together without intervention during stress bonding without nipping or fighting. Then move on. You can always come back to this if you need to.
                                        Could you put them in a basket or something when they are on the washer? You don’t want them to be shaken off or fall.


                                      • Tessie
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                                          No we don’t have anything like that… But the shaking is pretty minor and they don’t even move on it.

                                          They don’t fight or nip at all on the washing machine but last time we did neutral they fought like crazy :/


                                        • LongEaredLions
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                                            Can you put them in a cube or something and just put it in the neutral area and let them sit there to see how they react? How long has it been since they were in the neutral area and how be was it?


                                          • LongEaredLions
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                                              How BIG was it, not how BE was it


                                            • tanlover14
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                                                I agree. Keep stress bonding until you feel they are comfortable enough to move elsewhere. I would try a different neutral territory – how about a cardboard box – sometimes rabbits are weird like that & can fight in one area but if you change it to a different one, they’ll be fine!


                                              • Tessie
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                                                  Boyfriend and I are trying all-night bonding kinda thing.
                                                  We’ve wiped vinegar everywhere, put them in a pen, and when they fight we hoover them! Simple in theory

                                                  So far it’s going well. They are mostly ignoring each other, which I know is good. Teddy humps Luna, I count for a few seconds, then I take him off, and she looks so confused, ahaha!
                                                  When we hoover Teddy gets really freaked (Luna doesn’t really care) and they snuggle a bit, so it’s all pretty alright so far!

                                                  Wish us luck, I will update!


                                                • Tessie
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                                                    Luna groomed Teddy for ages, then out of nowhere bit him?! I dunno if she was annoyed he didn’t groom her?
                                                    Teddy also keeps humping her, like every two minutes he has another go!


                                                  • Tessie
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                                                      So, it’s 3am here now, and we’ve called it a night!

                                                      They were together for 5 hours, and had one proper fight, and lots of little nippy-type fights, but I’m pleased because before they’ve had these huge fights instantly.
                                                      Most of the time they ignored each other, flopped near each other, etc. and like I said before lots of humping and some grooming!

                                                      Overall I’m really pleased. I have a day or two free next week so I might try it again then. There is hope!


                                                    • Tessie
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                                                        Here are some pictures of last night


                                                      • Tessie
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                                                          Anyone have any thoughts/advice? Please?


                                                        • tanlover14
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                                                            Hey Tessie,

                                                            That sounds wonderful! When I was bonding the group of four, we did really long dates about 5+ hours until they became more comfortable together and the bickering began to slowly decrease. It sounds like you’ve got a handle on what is happening between them and have found a good way to continue bonding.

                                                            I really would just say to keep attacking bonding from that angle. See where you are in a week and whether you have noticed progress or not!


                                                          • Tessie
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                                                              Thanks, TL!

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                                                          Forum BONDING The Journey continues – Theodore and Luna