Bonding three - Help!

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This topic has 7sd replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 10 months ago by JackRabbit.

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- 12/26/2013 at 10:43 PM
  JackRabbit
  Participant
  5451 posts
  Still pretty
  new to posting but I’ve been reading quite a bit here and now desperately need
  advice!
  
  I have three
  bunnies – Kieko (7 months old, female, dwarf something (rex?)), Moshi (5 months
  old, male, Holland Lop), and Marlee (5 months old, female, Holland Lop). Moshi and Marlee are half-siblings born 3
  days apart. We got Kieko in early
  August, and the “babies” in early October.
  Kieko turned into attack bunny as soon as we brought the babies home and
  was immediately spayed. Moshi and Marlee
  originally shared a cage but separated at three months old per the advice of
  replies here. They were spayed/neutered at
  the same time the week before Thanksgiving and continue to have separate cages
  (touching each other) but have play time together every day. The bond between Moshi and Marlee was never
  broken. Kieko is very active, nosy,
  territorial, vocal, loving (to us), but can be downright nasty (even the vet
  said she’s a real diva). Moshi is all
  boy – happy as he can be, bouncy, into everything, can’t seem get enough to eat,
  and apparently not afraid of anything (turn on the vac, make a loud noise, he
  has to come check it out). Marlee is the
  sweetest thing in the world but a bit shy and skittish and will thump at most
  anyting. Marlee loves Moshi, but Moshi
  LOVES Marlee. Kieko seems to hate them
  both, and has tried to bite both of them whenever they’ve come near to contact
  . . . until she stuck her paws and nose between the bars of Moshi’s cage (she’s
  fast) and he apparently had enough of her attitude and he bit her.
  
  We waited a
  few weeks after the bite incident and tried to start bonding them a few days
  ago. We expected Kieko to try to start a
  fight, Moshi to defend himself, and prayed they didn’t turn on Marlee. We followed the guidelines – squirt bottles,
  gloves, neutral territory (slippery bathroom floor), colanders, and
  bunnies. We also had a plate of lettuce,
  a plate of hay, and a litter box. To our
  surprise, Kieko was scared to death and kept trying to climb on my husband and
  to jump *into* the bathtub. She did try
  to claim the litterbox as her territory at one point so we removed it. All Marlee cared about was the lettuce (she
  did try to sniff Kieko once but went back to the lettuce. Moshi acted like King of the Bathroom and hopped
  all around. He was the one to go after
  Kieko twice and try to start a fight – my husband jumped in with the colander
  to break them up (Moshi came up over the top of the colander and bit my husband
  trying to get to Kieko and she came up on her hind legs) and I squirted Moshi 5
  times (his head was soaking wet and it didn’t phase him). We got everyone apart for a couple of minutes
  and ended the session at about 13 minutes.
  
  We tried
  again this afternoon. Kieko was
  terrified from the start and was determined to be on my lap and even hopped up
  on my shoulder twice. Marlee sniffed
  Kieko’s butt but decided there was nothing interesting there. Moshi went back and forth between hopping
  around the bathroom, grooming Marlee, and staring at Kieko. He went toward Kieko a couple of times but we
  kept the colander between them. Kieko
  was so scared of Moshi that she sat between my legs and peed all over me and
  the floor. My husband held her for a
  minute to soothe her and I tried to act normal while covered with bunny pee until
  he came back for the other two. That
  session lasted for about 10 minutes.
  
  We’re
  inexperienced and need advice! Do we put
  them in an x-pen in the bathroom with a divider between Kieko and the
  babies? Do we focus on Kieko and Moshi
  (I do not want to risk unbonding Moshi and Marlee)? I’m afraid to put Kieko and Moshi in a
  laundry basket and shake them up because Moshi wouldn’t mind the shaking and
  might really hurt Kieko. A car ride wouldn’t
  work – Moshi doesn’t mind the car. Do I
  move to another neutral territory (is Moshi too comfortable in the
  bathroom)? Marlee and Moshi don’t seem
  to mind the slippery floor but Kieko doesn’t like it. Moshi has obviously claimed top bunny
  position, but is he trying to jump the gun and protect Marlee? Also, what is the best way to get three
  bunnies to the neutral area so that no one “gets there first” and thinks it’s
  his/her territory? Size-wise, Moshi is
  the biggest (widest and has the biggest head; he weighs about 3 pounds and
  looks grumpy even though he’s not), Kieko is the longest (“tubular bunny” and
  weighs between 2.5 and 3 pounds) and Marlee is the smallest (weighs about 2
  pounds); the babies look bigger because they are very fluffy.
  
  Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Also, if anyone knows of a bunny bonder or
  bunny whisperer in central Virginia please speak up! (Sorry for the long post)
- 12/27/2013 at 9:23 PM
  MoveDiagonally
  Participant
  2361 posts
  With aggressive rabbits stress bonding is usually what’s recommended but if you don’t think stress bonding will work have you thought about loud noises? Banging something together or putting pennies in a can and shaking it can sometimes startle them out of fighting when it happens. It sounds mean but finding something to startle/stress out the most aggressive rabbit (Moshi) will help you with bonding.
  
  I don’t know if order matters when putting bunnies in neutral territory. I always put in the most aggressive rabbit last because I didn’t want to leave them alone with any other bunnies while I grabbed another one.
  
  Another thing I’ve always done in the early stages of bonding is put bunnies side by side and pet both of them alternating hands to really get their scent all over each other. It also gives you an easy way to control them if one tries to attack the other because you can gently push down (not too hard of course) and keep them from being able to lunge.
  
  I would also try some one on one sessions with Keiko and both other bunnies to see if they behave any differently.
  
  Sometimes it’s a lot of trial and error before finding something that really works for your bunnies so don’t be afraid to give something new a try as long as it’s safe.
- 12/28/2013 at 12:08 AM
  JackRabbit
  Participant
  5451 posts
  I’m willing to give the stress bonding a try. Is it safe to put a terrified bunny in with
  an aggressive bunny? What do I do if Moshi attacks Kieko while I’m shaking the
  laundry basket – stop and physically break it up? Keep shaking and let my husband break it up? Kieko is a jumper and a climber and will try
  to get out – do I let her get out or keep pushing her back down gently?
  
  I meant to have a pan and spoon handy during the last
  session but forgot. What we’ve found
  during playtime is that Marlee stops whatever she’s doing at the least little
  noise. The only noise that seems to get
  Moshi’s attention is Marlee thumping.
  Hoping that Marlee not being in the bonding session might throw Moshi
  off. By the way, the neutral bathroom is
  around 5’ x 8’. Is that too big of an
  area considering it has to hold 2 to 3 bunnies and both me and my husband?
  
  I like your idea of
  the one on ones with different bunnies.
  Will try that tomorrow. Forgot to
  ask – should I let Kieko in my lap if she’s scared or make her stay on the
  floor with the other bunny? I haven’t quite figured out how to get the two to
  sit side by side. Is it OK to give
  treats (even hand feed lettuce bites) while they are side by side?
  
  Kieko being so scared is sad. She’s such a fun bunny and loves to lick and
  be held and petted. I just know she’d
  love to have a buddy to groom and snuggle with.
  She’s the reason I wanted more bunnies to begin with. I just never imagined she’d be so nasty to
  the babies when bars separate them and then turn into timid bunny when face to
  face.
  
  I know I need to be calm during bonding but it’s really
  hard! I’m so afraid that we won’t be
  able to separate them fast enough and one will get hurt.
  
  Thanks so much for replying, and sorry I’m so full of
  questions.
- 12/30/2013 at 11:49 PM
  MoveDiagonally
  Participant
  2361 posts
  Sorry JackRabbit! I meant to reply to you a couple days ago but I’ve been sick and it side tracked me a bit.
  
  If they fight during the actual stress bonding I would definitely break them up. Either you or your husband can do (make sure to wear gloves). I’ve only had that happen once with my bunnies and managed to yell loud enough to scare them out of their fight. :/ If the stress bonding doesn’t work then I’ve heard of others having really great success with really short sessions. Check out this thread:
  https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/126996/Default.aspx
  
  It’s not a complete bonding story but Treori talks about the short sessions as she had some aggression issues that seemed to be improving. It might give you some ideas.
  
  Sometimes you just have to try different things until you find something that works for your particular bunnies. I think the bonding area sounds fine. I let my bunnies onto my laps when they were scared most of the time but sometimes being over involved and hovering (I totally hover in the early stages of bonding but it’s not always best) can hinder bonding. This is one of those things where you’ll have to use your best judgement and see what works best for your bunnies. It’s okay to give them treats as long as they don’t fight over them. It can actually help them associate each other with something good.
  
  Being calm can be really hard but it will help too. They pick up on your emotions so whatever you bring into the session with you can affect them and their bonding. Remember that if you start getting too stressed it’s perfectly fine to take a break from bonding for a bit and return to it. Sometimes it helps for them to have a break now an then too.
  
  Did you try the one on one sessions or done any other bonding. How did it go?
- 12/31/2013 at 12:57 AM
  JackRabbit
  Participant
  5451 posts
  Hoping to try a little New Year’s Eve one on one bonding tomorrow evening. I’m sure I haven’t been helping with the stress — I imagine I’m a pretty scary sight in my purple Playtex kitchen gloves with my large strainer in one hand and squirt bottle in the other! I will try to relax now! Thanks!
- 12/31/2013 at 12:51 PM
  MoveDiagonally
  Participant
  2361 posts
  Keep us posted!
- 01/01/2014 at 12:04 PM
  JackRabbit
  Participant
  5451 posts
  Update: We had our first one on one session! Decided to just go with Moshi and Kieko, the scariest match. Left Marlee out of this session in case Moshi’s aggression was out of protection for Marlee. We started by trying to get Kieko and Mosh to sit next to each other with me petting and talking to both. Neither bunny was willing to sit still. I bought a deep storage tote (deep enough that either bunny would have a hard time jumping out of). Put both in the tote and shook. Not happy and kept trying to climb out and kept falling back on each other. Tilted the tote while shaking so that bunnies were right up against each other. No fighting or nipping! After about 3 minutes we let them out. Each went to different wall. Gave each a bite of lettuce — Kieko actually ate this time! I put a small pile of lettuce on Funny thing — Moshi ate all the lettuce except for one piece that was about 6 inches from Kieko. He stretched as far as he could reach but not far enough to get that bit and then hopped away. Moshi was afraid to get close to Kieko and Kieko was afraid to get close to Moshi! This is progress! We might try again tonight if all bunnies have calmed down from a close encounter with our black lab this morning. Thanks for your help MD! Will update after next date!
- 01/18/2014 at 3:47 PM
  JackRabbit
  Participant
  5451 posts
  Bonding Update! Plus
  – what next?
  
  For a few days prior to more bonding attempts, I put one of Kieko’s blankets in Moshi’s cage
  and one in Marlee’s cage as well as one of Moshi’s into Kieko’s cage and one of
  Marlee’s into Kieko’s cage. Marlee
  groomed Kieko’s blanket and Kieko layed on Marlee’s blanket. Kieko pooped on Moshi’s blanket and would
  smell it with her tail up. She’s our
  peepee bunny (pees on things to mark them) so I thought for sure she’d pee on
  it. Moshi was convinced that Kieko was hiding
  in the blanket put in his cage and dug in it, flipped it around, and buried his
  face in it – tail straight up the whole time.
  
  I followed MoveDiagonally’s advice and have had bonding
  sessions with just Moshi and Kieko (no Marlee).
  Moshi is totally different without Marlee there – much less aggressive
  toward Kieko. We did a few stress
  bonding sessions (plastic tub). They both
  were freaking out and trying to jump out of the tub constantly. I saw that someone on BB was doing forced
  snuggling so we gave that a try and found a cardboard box for to have on
  standby. Forced snuggling seems to work
  well with these two so far. They force
  snuggle then we let them do what they want.
  Kieko is still pretty scared and wants to climb in my lap. During the 2^nd to last session,
  Moshi smelled Kieko a few times then hopped away (Kieko stayed in the “frozen
  rabbit” stance the whole time). Last
  night, Moshi actually groomed Kieko twice!
  He was being so sweet and I felt so bad for him – both times he went to
  Kieko and licked her ears and face then put his head down for her to return the
  love. The first time Kieko just stayed
  frozen, but the second time she put her head down too and never would groom
  him! Neither tried humping, but at one
  point Moshi had his entire head shoved up under Kieko’s rear ending smelling
  her. Kieko allowed it, but the look on
  her face was priceless!
  
  So, does Kieko putting her head down and not grooming Moshi
  mean that she didn’t know what to do (I don’t think she knows she’s not a human)?
  That she was just trying to be
  submissive to Moshi? That she wants to be top bunny (doubt Moshi will allow
  that)? With their past bonding behavior,
  I have no idea how to begin to interpret this.
  
  Also, what next? Moshi
  and Marlee are definitely still bonded, but Marlee is starting to get a little
  ticked off when we take Moshi away for bonding (she smells Kieko on him when he
  comes back). Marlee is 2/3 Moshi’s size
  and she happily obliges his constant grooming demands but she has started
  putting her foot on him and pushing him back down if he tries to get up before
  she’s done grooming (was especially adamant after Moshi had his head up Kieko’s
  rear end last night – she was going to get *all* that other woman’s scent off
  her man!). It’s pretty funny to watch dainty
  little Marlee hold big squishy Moshi down to groom him. With my luck Marlee will decide to take
  everyone on for top bunny spot!
  
  Since Moshi and Kieko are now being civil to one another
  (never thought I’d see it!), do I bring Marlee back into the bonding mix or do
  I have some bonding sessions with just Marlee and Kieko first or just keep on
  with Moshi and Kieko?
  
  I appreciate any advice you guys have!
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