Thanks! I was planning to wait until Shadow is spayed before introducing her into the mix- so working only with Tofu and Butterscotch for now- that is in keeping with what I have read about not bonding bunnies while they are hormonal. However, since Shadow will hopefully be bonded in after her spay, should I start alternating all three cages now? Or would that confuse things for the boys? I could just swap out the two boys cages if that would make things easier for them. Any opinions?

That makes sense. I just thought if I kept Shadow in the mix, they may be more ready to accept her too once she is ready. Is it still ok to house her in the same room? Her pen is in between the two boys. I would really like to avoid moving her- as I have bunny proofed the room they are in… Do not have any other readily available space… Could make it happen if you think it is necessary?

Ok- so another question please! I have stopped play dates with Shadow and either boy. While I am switching cages between Tofu and Butterscotch, waiting for the 4 weeks after neutering to pass so I can start official bonding (1 more week or so…), is it ok to let them out of their pens into the living room at the same time, as long as I am there? Or should I not do that until I reach the semi-neutral
phase of bonding? As it stands, they have had 2 cage swaps, and over 1 week of poo/grass mats/chew toy swaps. They take turns being out of their pens. Tofu tries to stick his nose through the pen when Butterscotch is near, but Butterscotch generally ignores him- with the exception of one 30 second grooming. Butterscotch does groom Tofu’s stand in stuffed animal though. They sniff each other for short periods if time through the pen while one is out, but it is shirt lived and seems to be just in passing. There isn’t any obvious aggression… But I don’t know if it is appropriate to let them out together to see how they get along. The room is quite big- 20ftx30ft- so they could easily avoid each other. If they fought, I suppose that would hurt their chances at bonding?

Ok- perhaps I will try my bathroom tomorrow- they have never been there. If it does not go well, I will end on a good note, and wait another week. Thank you so much Move Diagonally! I will post progress and welcome further advice if possible!

I just want to be clear on the best way to approach this. Should I do a little stress bonding in a carrier first? Or go straight to the bathroom? Would I put the carrier in the bathroom and turn on my dryer? (Cannot put them on top as my washer/dryer are on top of each other). What do I do when I put the two boys in the bathroom: I have a spray bottle, a metal strainer, will have long sleeves and gloves. The floor is ceramic time, so very slippery. Should I put a towel down in the middle? Should there be greens/hay/litter box and toys? Would these things be a distraction, or something to fight about? And the first experience should be limited to 10 minutes? Thanks in advance for all the help- I have never done this before!

Thank you so much Move Diagonally! I will try today or tomorrow and see how it goes… I am also excited/nervous! Will post updates as they happen!

Ok- so we were in the bathroom for 40 minutes. Tofu and Butterscotch mostly ignored each other. When their paths crossed, Tofu either sniffed Butterscotch a little and kept moving, or the other way around. There were two occasions when Tofu seemed to give Butterscotch a little bite on the rear- but very minimal. At one point they Tofu laid down beside Butterscotch, face down waiting to be groomed, but Butterscotch ignored him. Near the end if the session, Butterscotch looked scared and huddled next to a wall, so I pet him and reassured him. Tofu eventually came over and laid down behind Butterscotch. Butterscotch got up to groom himself, so Tofu stuck his head underneath Butterscotch. I was very nervous here, but Butterscotch groomed Tofu’s head a bit ( I thought it may have been an accident as he was grooming his feet near Tofu’s head…), and after finishing cleaning himself, groomed Tofu’s head a little more. Maybe only 10-20 seconds… I decided to end it there, as it was as good a note as I think I was going to get.

So I think it went well? Should I do the same tomorrow? Should I turn on the dryer to make it more stressful? Would it be better if they were in a smaller space, so they had to interact more, or should I leave well enough alone? Should I have kept the session going? I had the time but did not know if things would deteriorate, so I took the opportunity when it presented itself!

Move Diagonally- what are your thoughts?

Ok- so do the same thing- still no hay/greens/toys?

Also, all three bunnies are currently in separate pens- Shadow’s is between Tofu and Butterscotch. They are all connected though- so Butterscotch shares a pen wall with Shadow, who shares a wall with Tofu. I am thinking from what was said in an earlier post, that Shadow should be separated all together? She is no longer having play dates with either boy.., but her close proximity may pose a problem?

The last thing is, would it be safe for Tofu and Butterscotch to share a pen wall- as in their pens would be adjoining, and not a few inches apart? I am wondering since they have not been really aggressive, would it be ok? If it would, their spaces would be a bit bigger… If they have to be completely apart, their pens would be smaller (still 4ftx4ft… But otherwise could be 4ftx6ft).

I apologize for all the questions, but I think I have actually read toouch about bonding and it has made me feel like it is a very delicate balance that could be easily thrown off… I want to make sure I am doing all
The right things! Thank you again for sharing your experiences and knowledge with me!

Wow! I cannot imagine how I would even begin bonding 5! I hope you will start a thread and post progress so we can learn from your experience!

As for my two- we went back to the bathroom for about 45 minutes. First 10 minutes was spent ignoring each other (I wonder if the space is too big… Almost 10ftx10ft ?). Tofu flopped I front if Butterscotch who seemed to be hiding on the floor behind the sink- Butterscotch then groomed Tofu’e face and ears on And off for 5 minutes or so, at which point Butterscotch stretched out and they just lay together for 5-10 minutes. Butterscotch got up to groom herself, they both walked around for a few minutes, then Tofu flopped down in front if him, wanting to be groomed… After a little bit- Butterscotch groomed him again.. This happened once more and ended with them both lying beside eachother. I ended it there, again taking advantage if the good note. I think this is all good. I have a question though- when they are facing off, and Tofu us waiting to be groomed, if it is taking Butterscotch a while to do it, I will pet Tofu’s head- I saw that in one of the binding videos- to help him wait. Is that ok? Also, when Butterscotch is grooming Tofu, I will pet Butterscotch and reassure him. Is that ok? I don’t know if I should be involved at all- I just thought, from what I read and saw, that it is okay to reassure them at the beginning?
Shall I repeat exactly the same tomorrow? Thank you for all the advice!

We had another 45 minute session in the bathroom today- (although I sectioned it off so they only had half the space, as advised). It went really well- Tofu nips (?pulls fur) Butterscotch once or twice at the start of each session, then basically we spend the rest of the time alternating between Tofu being groomed, or the two lying next to each other. There isn’t any overt aggression, but Butterscotch does seem scared sometimes- today he did not move around much (although in fairness he was falling asleep in his pen when I brought him in…), just stayed in one spot and waited for Tofu to come to him. He was lying down, ears up, bum up- not in a flop or anything. At some points he did seem to relax, and stretch out, even seemed to be drifting off to sleep once. But he did not really explore the setting like curious Tofu did. It is like he was saying “ok- this again. Alright I’ll just wait here”. Of note, Butterscotch has always been a little nervous, (much more so since he was neutered and had post-op seizures etc). He sometimes seems anxious when he is alone in his own pen…So I am not sure he was significantly more nervous during bonding. Does this seem ok? Also, I made their pens adjoining today after the session, and watched them for a bit. It seemed to be ok- Butterscotch even groomed tofu between the bars- so I think that is good. Is this the way it will always be? Butterscotch having to groom Tofu all the time? Is Butterscotch doing it because he wants to, or because he is terrified Tofu will hurt him if he doesn’t? (I know nobody probably knows the answer… Just seems like such a one sided relationship (if Butterscotch was a friend of mine, I would tell him to get rid if the selfish, demanding, overbearing guy (Tofu).

Move Diagonally- So now I guess I can go to semi neutral space? How big an area should it be? I can section off a part of the living room where they both have separate playtime? Should there be any toys/hay/furniture? Or should it be pretty sparse so there are no distractions?

Thank you again for helping me navigate through all of this first time bonding. It is reassuring to know I am following the advice of someone who knows!

Thank you Rabbit Pam! Will try that next time.

Tofu and Butterscotch were in a semi- neutral area today for 45 minutes. Approximately 4ftx6ft- (living room walled off with 2ft high foam mats). Tofu was a little more aggressive- nipped/pulled fur 4-5times instead of the usual 2. Once or twice it was because He put his head out to be groomed, and Butterscotch walked away from him- so Tofu expressed his dissatisfaction. They did settle into a grooming session and then lay together for a bit. Unfortunately, Tofu spent most of his time trying to find a way out of their enclosure- digging at the corners etc. It was as if he did not notice Butterscotch at all. He flopped beside Butterscotch a couple of times (that does not mean he wants to be groomed right? Just a flop beside the other bun?), and he may have licked Butterscotch’s mouth area- either that or he was chewing at him? We ended when they were lying side by side.

I definitely think I have to change the way I section off a spot for them, because the foam mats were too distracting (- even though I used them in the bathroom without issue?) I can use a cage 2ftx3ft… But that is too small? I do not have an extra ex pen- would take a good deal of maneuvering to move one of theirs and use that…Any ideas wrt the cage?
Is the extra but of aggression normal given the change to semi neutral space? Help!

Thanks Move Diagonally! I will see what works best. Also, thank you for the link you suggested regarding bunny body language- it is very helpful to a first time bunny owner!

I wonder if It would be if any benefit to do longer sessions? Or would two or more sessions per day be better than one really long one?

I am going to try the 2ftx3ft cage tomorrow, as I just saw how time consuming and awkward, it would be to dismantle a pen. I suppose there is a limit to how long they can be in there without hay or water. Perhaps if things go well, I can put some in after 40 minutes or so. Opinions?

I think the same, but I do worry if it would stress Butterscotch a lot. He seems to sit/lie still after the first few minutes… Which is when the aggression seems to die down. I wonder if he thinks he has to stay still to avoid being nipped at? It is hard to know when to intervene- something that may be commonplace for you may seem horrible to me. So, when I saw Tofu pull out some fur, I put my hand between them, without even thinking about it- now I think I should probably not be doing that?! Are there specific things we look for to know when it is getting out of hand? Is nipping ok? Fur pulling? Chasing? Biting? I am concerned that the smaller space will escalate that to a point, but the bigger space allows them to ignore eachother so much if the time. If they do get really aggressive, would turning on the vacum help? Could I “stress” them to much? Sorry for all the questions…. It is hard to know the right thing to do… Thanks.

Update: I blocked off an area in the living room with 2 sofas- the space is approximately 3ftx3ft. Both bunnies have been in there for a little over two hours. There has been absolutely no aggression! Tofu did not even do his usual nips/fur pulls at the start! Butterscotch groomed Tofu without being asked! They fell asleep together after about one hour, so I put in some hay and water. That went well, so I added a litter box, pellets and some lettuce. It has gone well. I don’t think Butterscotch has used the litter box yet, but they have shared everything else. They are cuddly, and Butterscotch even did a flop! He seems much more relaxed around Tofu. Tofu even groomed butterscotch a little! They are grooming themselves too which I think is a sign they are comfortable together?

So, what now? I will keep them
Here for another hour or so… Should I try again with a larger area tomorrow? When do I know I can move to the next step? What is the next step- is it their permanent pen (rearranged so they think it is different? I would be joining the two pens they have now- we swap pens every day, so they both smell like both buns). I am very excited that things seem to be going so well- but don’t want to get my hopes up prematurely! Thoughts?

So- I do the same thing tomorrow morning- if all is well, then “cement”. I can sleep downstairs tomorrow night… But will have to leave twice to drop/pick up children from school. About 1 hour each time. Do I separate them during that time, or does that mess it up? I could bring them with me in a carrier- but Butterscotch is terrified of the carrier/car due to neutering/seizures ect- so would rather not do that. With young children, and a husband who works, I don’t know if I can ever have a full 24 hours without any interruption. Weekends are worse as my husband works and I have to look after the kids. Ideas?

Also- as it stands, Shadow’s cage adjoins the two that the boys are using. When I merge their two- can I keep Shadow where she is? Would be a lot easier! There has been no aggression with either boy and Shadow, or vice versa. I would think that would continue? Thanks again and once again, sorry for all the questions- I don’t want to overlook something!

That sounds manageable. Are there any advantages and/or disadvantages to cementing right away vs doing more bonding sessions? Am I going too fast?

Also- thank you!!! For spending soooo much time helping me! I would not know what to do otherwise! Please know it is very much appreciated!

Ok- I will give it a go if all goes well in the living room
Again tomorrow! If they do fight once they are in their pen, use the same rules for intervening? And if I have to intervene, I start the 24 hours all over again? What if I never get to leave the living room?

I may even let the kids play hookie and have a sleep over in the living room! I will post progress! Fingers crossed!

Do I need to wipe down everything? As in litter boxes, food dishes/water bowls/hay feeders etc? Even though we have been swapping cages every day for a week or more? I will do it if it is needed. Do I put new litter in the boxes or mix the two together so they have both of their smells? Obviously chew toys/grass mats are left as is…?

Perhaps if I made my entire house their new pen… Imagine how clean it would be!!! Ha!

Thanks again!

A couple of other things: do I use two litter boxes/hay feeders/feeding stations, or one of each so they share? Do I put their cottontail cottage in the new pen right away?(It is currently in one if the pens that they are swapping). Or do I just start with basics:food, water, hay, greens, blanket to sleep on for each? Add mazes and tunnels later? And if it doesn’t matter, feel free to tell me I am overthinking it…

Hello! So we are “cementing” the bond! Tofu and Butterscotch were on the living room (sectioned off space 8ftx3ft) for three hours this morning- it was great- continuation of yesterday- no aggression- just grooming (a little from Tofu to Buttercotch too), eating pellets/hay together, sharing lettuce and apple pieces. We moved directly to their permanent, rearranged pen around 4 hours ago. They did great! Ran around exploring And did many binkies! They ate hay, sat in the litter box, groomed each other…after an hour or so, they settled down- Butterscotch lying/sleeping on his tower bed, and Tofu lying/sleeping on a blanket. All good, but I wonder if their pen is too big for “cementing”. It is 4ft x 12ft. They did interact and run around together at first- but now resting in opposite ends if the pen. Technically they could avoid each other if they wanted to… I suppose we will see if they hang out when they wake up… I hadn’t thought it could be too big. Any thoughts? I will wait and see how it goes… But there is no easy way to make the pen smaller, other then making it 4ftx4ft- which is way too small….

It is exciting! I have a question though… Tofu seems to be grooming or ? Rooting at Butterscotch’s bum area. Looks like he is digging for something. Butterscotch sits there relaxed until he suddenly jumps and moves away. Tofu sometimes keeps trying to get to his bum, and it has irritated Butterscotch a few times… Causing him to leave the area. When Tofu comes back later, he doesn’t run away…but seems antsy if Tofu goes around to his bum. I checked Butterscotch to see if he had any mats or poo stuck that Tofu might be trying to get at, but cannot find anything. Is this a dominance thing?is he nipping him? I have no idea what it could be- just looks like a bit if aggressive grooming that may have gone too far? But he keeps doing it… Any ideas?

Perhaps when one has spent 12 hours watching bunnies, one starts to worry about things unnecessarily. So… I am wondering if Butterscotch is ok. He has spent most if the afternoon sleeping/resting- a little bit less active than Tofu … Which may be normal for him… But when he did come out to eat pellets, Tofu came over- did not do anything to him at all- but Butters itch ran and hid under his tower bed. So input the bowl of pellets there with him and he are some. When Tofu came over, Butters itch did not run away or anything, but didn’t come out either. Throughout the afternoon, Tofu flopped beside him a few times, but Butters itch didn’t really react. Other then the Bum ?grooming mentioned above, there has not been anything untoward- and that has not happened for over an hour either. Does this mean something? Is Butterscotch just taking more time to get used I the new living setup? When he was resting this afternoon- he was flopped and stretched out- did not seem scared… Help?

Just to be sure- there was a shirt chase a little while ago- maybe around the pen once- they sorted it out on their own- no fighting/biting etc- I did not interfere, so I don’t have to reset the 24 hours for cementing, right? Fingers crossed!?

That would make sense- but it is done mostly when they are lying together and Tofu seems to be grooming Butterscotch’s bum- it is not when Tifu is trying to get by or anything… It has happened a couple if times when Butterscotch has been grooming Tofu’s bum as well,.. In any case, does not sound too serious- I will just keep an eye out to see what happens.

Otherwise, at the end if this 24 hours, does that mean
The two little buns can be trusted, and can be left alone? (Sleeping on the floor next to three rabbits and two guinea pigs is not exactly restorative… My bed would be soo nice….)

Also, I normally let them out of their pens individually for okay time in the living room. Can I start letting them out together? Starting today? And when would you think it is ok to put their maze/cottontail cottage in their pen?

Lastly, how long do I have to wait for their bond to be secure before adding Shadow? (Shadow will be spayed in about 4 weeks, and will wait 4 weeks after that for her to be ready- so at least two months from now). Is two months long enough for the boys’ bond to be good, and it is safe to try And add a third?

Thank you again for all the help!

Another thing- there have been a couple if chases overnight- just once around the cage- no biting or fur pulling- Tofu was chasing Butterscotch- but I don’t know if it was for play it not. It does scare Butterscotch when it happens, but he just flops onto his tower bed afterwards- not looking concerned. I don’t know if I should be concerned or not. As I mentioned throughout the bonding- Butterscotch has always been a little more anxious- even seemed scared sometimes when he was alone
in his pen. He is definitely somewhat intimidated by Tofu, although there has been very little aggression on Tofu’s part. Is this normal for the submissive bunny? Will he get more comfortable with time? As I said, Butterscotch is spending a lot of time on his tower bed- but when he is there, he is grooming himself or he is flopped/stretched out looking pretty relaxed. He dies go to the litter box, and will come out for pellets/greens- he just seems antsy when he does it- and if Tofu comes too close too fast- he goes back up on his bed. Tofu has gone up there and flopped beside Butterscotch… So… What does it all mean?

They are doing fine- I think. Tofu is definitely happy. Butterscotch still lounging around- not coming out as much as I would like- hanging out on his bed or under it. There are pellets and water there, as well as hay, and he is also eating apple and carrots and greens when I give it to him. I have seen him in the litterbox a few times, but not as much as I would think he would normally be there (I put two in the pen in case they have issues…). Throughout the night he was out more. I think it is that he is more nervous and takes longer to adjust- I would just hate to think he is living in fear!

As for the chases- I don’t know about Tofu’s body language- he goes so fast and they were running up onto the beds and hopping over hay feeders… I will pay more attention if it happens again.

I guess I just don’t know what to expect. Should they be interacting all the time? Because they definitely do not. They are usually in different places in the pen (again wondering if it is too big)- actually that is not true, Butterscotch is usually in the same general area, and Tofu wanders. Is this ok- or should they be interacting more to know the bond is good? There are times when they do cuddle together as well- just not as often as I would have thought.

Lastly, when can they start being let out to play together? What about mazes and tunnels in their pen- would that be a good thing now- may interact more? Thanks.

That is what I wanted to know! I figured there could be more and less cuddly bonds- but wanted to be sure it wasn’t bad that they were not interacting that much.

I guess Butterscotch is more comfortable- it is so hard to know, as he was just over 10 weeks when Tofu started mounting him and stressing him out, then 2 weeks later had surgery with complications leading to a long recovery. I don’t really know what he is like because he has been through so much. My sense is that he may be more of a loner? He seems to like being quieter, hanging out in tunnels or his cottontail cottage. So this may just be normal for him, whereas Tofu is big and fast and playful- so probably not a match made in heaven. I will add a maze or tunnel and see if he comes out more. Thanks again!

Another thing that I have noticed is that Butterscotch seems to flop a lot more, or stretch out more. He is not always “wound tightly” – sitting in a little ball. Which I believe means he is relaxed. Also, he is much more cuddly with me. Wants to be petted, and will sit on my lap for some time while I love him. He used to do that when he was little- then became antsy with Tofu mounting him etc. So everything seems good with the exception that he is not venturing away from his little corner too often. There is just no way to know if he is there because that’s where he wants to be or because he is too freaked out to go further.

I left them alone for 1 hour this morning, then another 2 hour period later on. All seems to have gone well. There is no evidence of anything different or any fighting etc,

I have NO IDEA if they are officially bonded! What does that mean? How do I know? What are the criteria used to make that decision? When did you consider yours officially bonded?

Ok – so I am more or less there. I have not seen anything worrisome in terms of aggression. I feel I can leave them and they will be ok- from all that I have seen- I know there are no guarantees! My only concern right now is seeing Butterscotch more out and about, more active. However, my gut tells me that he is ok/ just taking time to adjust. When he was first moved downstairs after his surgery, if took him almost an entire week to start coming out of his Cottontail Cottage- (he wouldn’t even want to come out of his pen for his playtime….)- and then he was ok. So provided all else is good (as in still eating, drinking, flopping…) I will give him a week to see how it goes. I also noticed during that week where he seemed to hide in his cottage (bottom or mid floor- nothing where he could be seen)- every morning I would find TONS of poo on the top level of his cottage, and on the floor in front of it. So he obviously was out more at night than I saw in the day (I know they are more active morning and evening and sleep daytime…but he never came out- even morning it evening). Along the same lines, I saw him out and about quite a bit through the night last night- throughout the entire pen- so maybe it’s just the way he rolls!

I will post progress every day until there is nothing left to say, and all
Is well… Hopefully soon!

Butterscotch is out!! He has been running around doing mini 500s and binkying all around his pen! He even lured Tofu into mini play chase! He has been in both litter boxes, eating lots of pellets/greens/carrot/hay and a couple of raisins. He and Tofu were exploring their hopper hideaway together, and had a Few snuggle sessions with some flops and grooming! I think he us coming around and getting used to his new environment! Sooo happy!!!

Thank you so much for all your help Move Diagonally! I will start a new thread with any issues- I guessing am no longer “starting pre-bonding”!
Cheers!