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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING Bonding 2 Females + 1 Male ***BONDED***

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    • Beth K
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        I need some help for bonding my 3 rabbits…
        I have had 2 female rabbits, Sally and Ginny, both about 4 years old, who have been bonded for about 4 months. Over a month ago, I took them to a local rabbit adoption center and did “bunny dates” with them and males that were available. At the shelter, they did really well (well as in ignoring) with a small male rabbit, Boliwyf, who is just under a year old. I have been working on bonding them for about 4 weeks and have been having a particularly hard time with one of my females – Sally.
        Ginny is very sweet and bonded with Boliwyf almost immediately, and she grooms him during every bonding session. He occasionally grooms her back. My other female, Sally, unfortunately was very aggressive at the beginning and would chase and pull out clumps of his fur. Recently they have been doing much better, and have been grooming in front of each other and sometimes eating in front of each other during bonding sessions. She has been relaxing and laying out next to him. However, if he sits with his nose by hers for too long, or if he moves very quickly next to her, she strikes. He has never bit her. He is very quiet and docile, and usually just pushes his head under her head or into her side when he’s next to her. He groomed her for a long period of time (about 5 min) on her back.
        What has me baffled is that Sally seems completely relaxed almost the entire time and has even groomed his head (briefly) while cleaning her paws. Right after that, unfortunately, she started biting him and holding on to fur on his head. She almost always remains laying down when she eventually bites him, and is not showing very many signs of aggression anymore. Sometimes her bites seem like dominant nips, but it turns into her biting a clump of fur and not letting go (doing small bites about 3 times, then biting and not letting go). I always clap or shout loudly when she starts to bite him (when it’s more than dominant-like nips), and she stops after a couple of claps. I am afraid the Boiwyf will start to fear her. He is much more reluctant to approach her now.
        During bonding sessions, Sally and Boliwyf will curiously touch noses, and once they touch noses or lay face to face I pet on top of their heads to stimulate grooming. That is how I have been ending the bonding sessions because if I stop petting them, she will bite him.
        I almost always take the buns in a laundry basket for a car ride before bonding sessions and sessions last anywhere from 15 minutes to about 2 hours. I do 2-3 bonding sessions/day. I started by doing the sessions in my walk-in closet, but Sally was showing more aggression over time, so I moved them to the bath tub. They were getting much better, and the grooming (but still biting) was happening, so I moved them to a slightly larger neutral space – a large shelf in my closet. Some sessions I only do the bonding with Sally and Boliwyf, and most times I have all three (including Ginny).

        They are all being housed in 2’x2′ pens in my living room. There is a screen between their pens to keep from biting through the fence. Since Ginny gets along well with both, I put her in with Boliwyf for a couple of hours during the day, and keep her with Sally the rest of the time.

        If you can give me any advice, I would greatly appreciate it. This seems to be the big obstacle in this trio bonding.

        (P.S. They are all spayed/neutered)


      • Beth K
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          P.S. Didn’t mention:
          They always get along great in car rides. Either sit with heads squished together or taking turns poking heads over the top of the laundry basket.
          Ginny is the dominant bun and has mounted Sally and Boliwyf multiple times. Sometimes when she does it, it gets Sally wound up (whether she’s being mounted or Boliwyf’s being mounted) and it leads into Sally getting more aggressive. I usually pet Sally and Boliwyf during these times to keep them calm.
          When they are in their pens, Sally no longer tries to bite through the fence. The screen is still there, but usually Boliwyf and Sally just lie on either side.
          I have some pictures and videos from good bonding sessions, but not quite sure how to put them on here yet…
          Ginny and Sally were “free roam” bunnies, so it’s sad not having them out and hopping about anymore Hope the bonding finishes quickly so I can have 3 happy buns hopping around the living room!


        • Deleted User
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            I have a female in my quartet like that, and the male she used to pick on, and occasionally still does, does fear her. It gets better over time. If Boliwyf is not suffering broken skin from these nips regularly, I recommend to you to take a week or two and focus in on Sally and Bolliwyf in sessions where you know she will be friendly, such as the car rides or another space where her nipping is less. You want to get them to the point where they are very familiar, tolerant and engaging in routines together. The reason for why I would leave out Ginny at this point is that if there are only two buns in a session, they HAVE to work out their relationship because there is nobunny else. Then I would add in Ginny again which will shift the dynamics; possibly there will be a flare up of the nipping you see from Sally, but by then Boliwyf will have learnt to exist in Sally’s presence without getting stressed out. At this point I would provide him with some hide-out places in the session setup where he can get away from Sally if he wants to. I am hoping for you that by that time, her nipping will have turned into head jerks only toward Boliwyf and you can cement them like that. Sallly may always enjoy bullying Boliwyf at times but not necessarily. Even if she were to, as long as Boliwyf understands not to trespass against her, they can live together and find harmony over time.

            The idea is that you accept Sally’s ‘bad’ behavior for now and work on Boliwyf to know how to be safe around her; this may include having extra litterboxes, watering and feeding stations for him for the first while of their living-together later on.


          • Beth K
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              Thank you so much! Your advice is so helpful
              Last night, after posting this, I did a 30 minute car ride with just Sally and Boliwyf and then put them back in the bath tub. They pretty much ignored each other for about 5 minutes, and Sally eventually sniffed him then started cleaning. No nipping! Yay! I made that one short and ended it right after Sally laid down next to Boliwyf (about 20 min session) — video below!
              I’m going to do both bonding sessions/day with just Sally and Boliwyf in the tub until I start to see grooming again (and regularly).
              Reading your response and looking through this forum gives me much hope. I was starting to feel like that’s just the way Sally would treat Boliwyf.
              Keeping my fingers crossed and will keep you posted…


            • jerseygirl
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                Welcome Beth : )

                They are doing really well! I agree, more session with just the 2 and you should see things shift. Just keep at it. Even after you can trust them together 24/7 you may see continual improvements in the bond. You may have seen this with the girls?
                It’s good that Sally & Ginny’s bond has not been challenged. I really think you’ll have your trio soon.
                Lovely bunnies there. Boliwyf if himalayan coloured? Sally has a wonderful face! I hope you’ll post a picture of Ginny too sometime.


              • Beth K
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                  A short video clip from one of the earlier bonding sessions, but after Sally stopped chasing maniacally after Boliwyf. Has Ginny in it so you can get a good look at her  Although she’s eating almost the entire time .. haha

                  Excuse my fiance’s feet

                   

                   


                • Deleted User
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                    Is Boliwyf a Californian? I have not seen those around here for a long time! I love him!
                    –Good, Sally can sit by him in the tub without getting nippy. She will probably nip again in larger space but you just take it slowly to get them there~
                    Cute videos!


                  • Beth K
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                      Not exactly sure what Boliwyf is… adopted him. They thought a Himalayan mix..? But he is a cutie

                      Yesterday Sally and Boliwyf were GREAT during bonding sessions! A shorter one in the afternoon – about 30 minutes, and then a long one before bed – about an hour. Lots of ignoring and grooming themselves. They ate a lot, too.

                      The first session today, unfortunately Sally started nipping again. Boliwyf was much more active than usual – hopping around the bathtub and grazing on parsley. He and Sally touched noses a couple of times and nothing happened. Lots of grooming themselves and eating together. Sally got very close to Boliwyf and laid down. Boliwyf later moved and did a flop

                      But I noticed that when Sally moved toward Boliwyf and sniffed she was pretty curious and did not nip. It was when Boliwyf hopped toward Sally that she nipped… I clapped and she stopped. Only nipped him twice, two different times. But right after nipping him the second time, Boliwyf turned around and pushed his nose against hers… I pet them on the heads and then ended the session.

                      Progress sure is slow… but at least it’s somewhat steady


                    • Deleted User
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                        Posted By Beth K on 01/10/2011 03:14 PM

                        Not exactly sure what Boliwyf is… adopted him. They thought a Himalayan mix..?

                        when Boliwyf hopped toward Sally that she nipped… I clapped and she stopped.

                         

                        how much does Boliwyf weigh? Himalayans are very small. Californians are bigger.

                        Sally is just showing him boundaries.


                      • Beth K
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                          Good to know that what Sally’s doing is normal… just frustrating
                          And Boliwyf is little – Sally weighs almost 11 lbs, Ginny about 9, and he weighs about 3. He’s the little boy with two large ladies to love


                        • Deleted User
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                            If he’s little he’s a himi


                          • Beth K
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                              Was getting great improvement with Sally and Boliwyf. Been doing car rides followed by bonding sessions 2x/day… She stopped nipping and while they hadn’t been groom each other, they were grooming themselves right next to each other… eating together…nose bumping (with no nipping!)
                              Today I introduced Ginny back into the bonding session, and Sally started doing some nips again, but nothing serious
                              The sessions have been getting much longer since Sally has been showing no aggression
                              The three of them were together for about 2 hours when Boliwyf ran up to Sally and nose bumped again. I pet them for a little bit, and then remembered the fruit smear trick to get bunnies to groom. I rubbed some mango on Sally’s head, and Boliwyf immediately started grooming her! He sat there and licked every bit of mango off and kept grooming Sally on her head.
                              Unfortunately (and what is most disheartening) is that immediately after he finished grooming her, she lunged quicker than I could blink. She grabbed ahold of his fur near his shoulder and did not let go. He tried to run away and squealed for her to let go It makes my heart break! I could not end it on that… so I calmed them both down until they both got relaxed again.

                              My fiance and I checked Boliwyf and neither could see any wound… Sally just had a huge puff of fur in her mouth. She must have just pulled out a big enough clump to make him squeal
                              They eventually lay with their heads about 5 inches apart facing each other and Ginny came over and did a flop between them. When Sally started grooming herself, Ginny pushed her head under Sally’s and Sally started nipping Ginny on the face! I am really surprised by this, because Ginny has always been dominant and I have never seen Sally do this to Ginny…
                              Ginny left and Sally settled back down and pushed her nose toward Boliwyf’s while laying down. I pet both of them on the head and then separated and ended the session.
                              I know her nipping would probably return when I added Ginny but I am so surprised by these strikes!
                              It is so disheartening after seeing such progress in just a few days… Did I rush it and move it too soon? Not exactly sure when to add Ginny back into the sessions, but figured since Sally wasn’t nipping Boliwyf anymore and they were nose bumping that it would be a good moving point…
                              Ginny and Sally lived next to each other in separate cages for about a year before my fiance and I decided to bond them, so by that time all they had to do was establish dominance. Their bond was super easy and now that Sally’s acting this way toward Boliwyf it is so frustrating!!!
                              I think for my sessions tomorrow I will go back to just Sally and Boliwyf again… with a long car ride…


                            • Beth K
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                                Just did another session – only Sally and Boliwyf. It was as if this afternoon had never happened… the same they have been in any other session with just the 2 of them…
                                20 minute car ride, 30 minutes in the tub. Right after I put them in the tub, they munched some cilantro and then Sally laid down and shoved her face in Boliwyf’s side. She laid there like that for a while, and I eventually scooted Boliwyf to the side, afraid that if she got annoyed and nipped it could get something vital in his stomach area.
                                Wondering if it’s normal for Sally to act out so much with Ginny present? It really scared me when Boliwyf squealed earlier… and still think it’s weird that Sally would have lunged at him like that immediately after he groomed her… Any ideas why? Any suggestions of how to introduce Ginny without such a rough session…? Thanks


                              • Deleted User
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                                  It is possible that Sally did not want those grooms. She may have felt trespassed against because he groomed her for the mango treat not because she had asked for grooms. So I would not use that trick in your sessions to be safe. Also, Ginny’s presence creates a situation of an established rabbit ‘society’ (the two bonded females) against Boliwyf, it is too early to include Ginny. Bond Sally with the male more but simultaneously keep the females’ bond intact too by housiing them together.


                                • Beth K
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                                    Thank you so much Petzy!
                                    It makes sense about the treats… and I definitely will not be doing that anymore!
                                    And what exactly should I be looking for in Sally and Boliwyf’s sessions to know when to start introducing Ginny…?
                                    Your advice is so helpful


                                  • Deleted User
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                                      Thank you, Beth~
                                      You want to see some real grooms or snuggles between B and S first, but as this will take some time, you absolutely must keep Sally’s and Ginny’s bond intact by housing them together. Sally will thus always carry Ginny’s scent into her sessions wiith B.


                                    • Beth K
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                                        I keep Ginny and Sally together when I’m not doing sessions, so I’m glad I’ve done that right
                                        Sally is now acting like she wants to groom Boliwyf – she will come up to the side or behind him and start kind of chomping at the fur on his back – almost like she forgot how to groom correctly… and then it turns into her biting him and him running away But she always responds to me clapping and stops biting right after. Sally’s approaching Boliwyf more and is laying down next to him. She will lay mostly relaxed and complacently next to him for up to 10-15 minutes at a time now. Half of the time she just hops away after, but unfortunately the other half (and almost always when he moves away from her first) she starts biting… Slowly but surely is the motto I guess


                                      • Beth K
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                                          Great news! For the past 4 sessions there has been no nipping !
                                          Sally and Boliwyf have been laying next to each other grooming themselves or eating lazily. They both seem really relaxed now…
                                          Still haven’t seen them grooming each other, but I stepped out of the bathroom really quickly during the morning session today and when I stepped back in it looked like Boliwyf was either about to groom Sally or stopped grooming her (on her head)… Haha caught ya!


                                        • Beth K
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                                            URG!
                                            Bonding is such a roller coaster… Sally was tricking us all

                                            She started cornering in the bathtub… meaning that she camped out at one end and started waiting for Boliwyf to come down. As soon as he goes to her side she nips until he runs away It’s turning into her lunging nips again, not just the “get out of my way” nips she was recently giving him.
                                            My tub is slanted so I’m filling it with enough water to cover the one half with less than half an inch of water. Is she really that territorial?? I tried something different today and set up an x-pen in a circle, covering the floor and sides to make it more neutral. Even in a circle Sally can somehow claim a “corner.” Her attacks became more aggressive…
                                            Worked on calming them both down, petting them…
                                            Urgggg… She is so frustrating! Now it seems like the only place they get along well is in the laundry basket during car rides.
                                            Boliwyf is now not approaching her anymore and even during the car rides, he’s not snuggling into her. They just sit next to each other.

                                            With all of the progress we were having… During last night’s bonding session while Sally was eating Boliwyf was grooming her back
                                            Today Sally’s acting like she did before she was spayed – I can’t understand why she’s suddenly being so nasty?? And so territorial (if that’s what her “cornering trick” is)? It makes me wanna cry!

                                            EDIT: My fiance – who is usually absent during bonding sessions went in the x-pen and calmed them down a lot. I also gave them some rescue remedy and they acted as they have been recently – although not laying as close together. Grooming and eating, much more relaxed  Trying the “wear them down” method – had them out for about 6 hours now… much much less aggressiveness. A couple nips, but not the aggressive scary nips – weird that she acted up so much.

                                            P.S. Started using an empty can filled with loose change to shake for my loid noise distractor (instead of clapping) – it’s a miracle! Heehee


                                          • Deleted User
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                                              I find female rabbits much tougher during bonding. They are more temperamental and have these times of completely irrational acting out… my female has been bonded a long time and still has those off times. I say you will see an improvement since you have a corrective method that works. Rough grooms that turn to nips are normal at this stage. If she keeps claiming corners, I would eliminate all corners by blocking them with pluhies or objects such as rocks. Do groom-imitating on both of them lots and try to go stress-free, focusing on getting them to relax. Maybe introduce foreign pieces of furniture, things to run around that are not theirs.


                                            • Beth K
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                                                Thank you for the advice – it is very encouraging
                                                When I first put them in the x-pen it was not good, but I guess you have to take a step back to move forward for bonding sometimes…
                                                Have done 2 days of “wear them down” sessions – about 6 hours the first day and 8 hours yesterday. Starting another one now. Caught Boliwyf grooming Sally’s ear (from behind/to the side of her) at one point! She seems to now nip because she wants him to move, or she’ll bite at his head if she puts hers down to be groomed and he doesn’t groom her within about 3 minutes.
                                                He’s approaching her sometimes. It’s funny because she’ll sit on the opposite side of the x-pen, then will sit up and act like she’s searching for food, then move closer to Boliwyf and do a flop right by him
                                                Thinking that her aggression may have come from being moved out of the bathtub and into the x-pen for sessions… I also think that they’re making some good progress during these long sessions. She wasn’t being territorial at all yesterday – must have just been her throwing a little fit after getting moved! Heehee
                                                They’ll sit on opposite sides of the pen for a while, then will switch sides, then eventually move closer.
                                                Something weird- and maybe it’s a boy bunny thing- but Boliwyf, when he approaches Sally from behind, she’s usually laying down with her legs out and he will lick directly under her tail. Sometimes she allows it, other times she sits up and spins around really quickly like “what do you think you’re doing back there?!”
                                                Sometimes instead of nipping Sally does quick head turns, which makes Boliwyf kind of spasm and jump back really quickly. It’s so funny (maybe it’s partly from the glass of wine during bonding haha) but he’s so funny springing up really quickly.
                                                Thanks again for the advice! and I’m trying to find some little furniture around the house now to add to their pen


                                              • Beth K
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                                                  A lot of just ignoring and laying out in the x-pen. Had a 40 min car ride last night and did a tub session again – and Boliwyf cleaned Sally’s head and ears! She laid out in front of him and stuck her nose down, and in about 2 minutes she was getting lots of licks from the little man  !

                                                  She seems a little more cranky today… they’ve just been ignoring each other in the tub and eating. But I guess as long as there’s no fighting it’s good


                                                • Deleted User
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                                                    Ignoring and eating is half-way bonded IMO.


                                                  • Beth K
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                                                      Thank you for all of your advice so far – it is definitely paying off! First is two videos showing how Sally and Boliwyf have been acting during the day long sessions:

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      And since they’ve been doing so well (and because we’re a bit impatient people) my fiance and I decided to add Ginny when we fed them their bedtime pellets. We were a little anxious, but we just watched the three of them eat peacefully, and then this!:

                                                       

                                                      So… again – since they were all doing so well (and Ginny was dividing grooming and snuggling attention between the two of them) we decided to just keep them together for the night! My fiance has insomnia, so he usually only gets 3-5 hrs of sleep/night. He said nothing happened while he was awake and we weren’t woken up by the bunnies – and they made it through to the morning just fine! So here is them getting their morning veggies 

                                                       

                                                      They have been doing great with the three of them living together! We made the cage about twice as big yesterday and they’ve been fine and flopping out most of the day. If Boliwyf jumps quickly out of the litter box toward Sally or does a binky and lands on/right next to her head she sometimes nips and gets a little tuft of fur, but it’s becoming more of just a nose bump/head turn toward him! My coin can shaker and water squirt bottle are working wonders 

                                                      Sometimes Ginny gets wound up and likes to chase-play and it kind of freaks out Boliwyf and he takes off. This can sometimes get Sally wound up and she nose butts/nips toward him if run near her, but this afternoon when Ginny started to chase him, he snuggled into Sally’s head and she just kept laying there! He sat there for a second and then it was like he realized who he was snuggling with and hopped away really quickly. But I am so proud of Sally! She is making so much progress! When she’s not ignoring Boliwyf, she’s usually just sniffing him and either hopping away or laying down right by him (like in the video of Boliwyf cleaning in front of her). She’s chomp-groomed him twice on his back - and it didn’t lead to biting! 

                                                      We’re going to let them live like this for at least 2 weeks so long as they keep doing so well together 

                                                      Happy and proud bun-mom and bun-dad here – and thank you everyone that has helped us on our bonding journey!!!

                                                      Will keep you updated with any more developments!


                                                    • Deleted User
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                                                        wow, Beth, you really didn’t waste any time. I agree with your cementing in the nick of time. Don’t be alarmed at a setback they may experience, it seems to be part of sorting out their new life together. You should find some fur tufts in the near future but that’s nothing to be concerned about.


                                                      • Beth K
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                                                          Part of the reason we moved quickly is because I’m in school and wanted to start cementing them before I had to return It makes it easier when I can be home any time of day everyday. At the end of two weeks when they started living all together will be the day I go back to classes so it worked out perfectly. We know it’s still going to take some time but we’ve been trying to look at all of the positives – especially where we came from with Sally chasing and terrorizing Boliwyf if he was in sight a little over a month ago.
                                                          Right now what we’ve been focusing on is a couple of times a day sitting in their pen with them and petting them all together. Boliwyf’s still a little wary of cozying up to Ginny with Sally right there, too, but he loves being pet enough to lay there. We’ve also noticed that while he used to lay on the opposite side of the cage as Sally and would wait for her to move, he’s gradually been moving closer to her while she’s relaxed. Think the presence and love from Ginny gives him some courage


                                                        • Deleted User
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                                                            I think movong faster in bonding can be a good thing as it shortens the stressful period of sessions for the buns. The other thing I wanted to mantion is be careful with certain habitat accessories. Some people, including myself, had fights start over habitat enhancements such as tunnels, mazes etc. You’ll want to hold off for a while with things like those.


                                                          • Beth K
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                                                              GREAT NEWS!!!
                                                              Boliwyf has been kind of following around Sally until she turns her head at him quickly – and today I looked over and he was grooming her head!!! All three were laying together, noses touching and he started grooming Sally  And she did not nip at him when pushed his head under hers (but she did not return grooms – still waiting!)
                                                              Lots of progress being made. I woke up last night because I heard thumping and the fence rattling, but every time I went out there Sally was hopping playfully toward Boliwyf with ears forward and as soon as she’d sniff him he’d thump and run away. So I guess last night Sally was trying to call a truce which turned into grooming today !! So excited!


                                                            • Beth K
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                                                                I want to say thanks again for all of the advice I received on this forum! It has been the most helpful source during my entire bonding experience.
                                                                Sally is still a little nippy toward Boliwyf, but it’s only a couple of times a day now and she almost never gets anymore fur – almost always more of a nose nudge/lunging.
                                                                Otherwise, they are getting along beautifully!!!
                                                                The picture files on my computer are too big to put in here for some reason But I have some very cute videos instead

                                                                Boliwyf grooming himself beside the two girls:

                                                                 

                                                                Some snuggling. And little stinkers – as soon as I put my camera away Boliwyf started grooming Sally’s ears and face!!!

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                And some more snuggling just because it’s so darn cute! (And notice that Boliwyf always lays on the other side of Ginny as Sally.. he’s still working up the courage to snuggle into Sally’s side – but understandable considering the couple of nips/day he gets from her)

                                                                 


                                                              • Deleted User
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                                                                  Congrats again, trios are not easy. It can go very wrong and then you have a big job to fix the bonds. This is really sweet that you could get them bonded so fast.


                                                                • Beth K
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                                                                    So I now officially declare them BONDED! Yay! 

                                                                    We feel comfortable enough leaving them alone and knowing that they’ll be ok – so much that we went to Disney Land for about 7 hours the other day — and when we came back they were like they always are  No problems!

                                                                    We have figured out that Sally will nose butt/nip toward Boliwyf (doesn’t pull fur anymore) when she is behind him and wants him to move, or when he approaches her quickly from behind (like doing a binky).

                                                                    While Sally is yet to give real grooms to Boliwyf, I have seen him grooming her a couple of times… and… today I saw him do a flop into Sally and snuggle with her!!!

                                                                     After Boliwyf flopped into Sally’s side: 


                                                                  • jerseygirl
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                                                                      Congratulations! : )

                                                                      I looked in on this thread days ago but was unable to post. I was playing catch up with the quick progression. Well, it seemed quick to me anyway. You really stayed the course. Here’s hoping to many happy bonded bunny years ahead!


                                                                    • Beth K
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                                                                        Thank you! It ultimately took 2 months, but the end definitely went quickly. They now have the run of the apartment again (still in the x-pen at night) and are doing great! Next time they get really energetic and start doing sprints and binkies I’ll have to tape it and post one last video. It’s great having them as lovey house bunnies


                                                                      • Beth K
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                                                                          The three always stop running around when I pull out the camera. But my fiance made a hilarious video that I thought you’d enjoy (the music is the funniest part) – and it’s a chance to see how much they get along now!
                                                                           

                                                                           


                                                                        • jerseygirl
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                                                                            Look at Boliwyf wedged in between his girls! Hee hee!

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                                                                        Forum BONDING Bonding 2 Females + 1 Male ***BONDED***