Day 2 – 4

Day 2-3:
I did three sessions and ended each stress session with a more calm session. Karl is generally a little meany during these sessions. Usually, Freddie is the aggressor but so far, he is very stressed about all of this and seeks comfort in Karl – even when Karl nips him! So no fights at all, although Karl looks like someone who would love a good ol’ fight. Yesterday, I felt like everything was déjà-vu and I was back in June and the sessions were not leading anywhere.

Day 4:
 So far, I’ve only done one session, but I decided to finish it off with the banana trick. And yeah, Karl groomed and groomed. I will try to finish off each session now with some banana. Please, please, let this be the first step to progress!

Session #2
Skipped the stress session and went straight to the nice session which means being in the container on the kitchen table (to both of them, this is still a stress session) and used the banana trick again. So, this was 15 minutes of Karl licking off banana on Freddie’s forehead and ears. Best part is that he did for a second or two even groom him.

I filmed it for you guys, but for some reason none of the clips are working.

I really hope I don’t jinx it now, but I just want to show a video from July and then the clip from today…I really, really, really hope that things are getting better now.

July:

Today:

Yeah, I’m getting closer…very slowly. Begun bonding in early June…now 4,5 months later they can sit still without fighting.

You don’t want to know what I said. Not the words my mum taught me to use

Did another session on the kitchen table last night and this morning – with banana – and it worked great. Whoever came up with the banana trick is a genius!

This afternoon though Karl was being a real meany again and was nipping Freddie, though also licking off banana. Eventually, Freddie got tired of it, and nipped back, and then Karl was all turned on for a fight…but I simply put my hand between them and said stop and that was it. So kind of a setback, but I am still so excited that I can actually stop them now. I then decided to use the tumble dryer for 10 minutes and then get back up in the kitchen and finish off. End result: Karl both licked and groomed Freddie.

We are moving in about 2-3 weeks, and I really must take fully advantage of a completely new territory. Not sure yet what approach to take though as I am too hesitant to let them meet outside the container due to their vicious fighting all summer.

I’m not sure what to make of the latest sessions. Karl still grooms a little bit, but he is also getting more aggressive: he nips Freddie quite a bit, who thankfully does not respond to it.

My guess is that Karl is nervous about Freddie, so he is so extremely tense that if Freddie blinks or something else, he reacts with an attack. I hope it stops once he learns that Freddie is harmless.

Also, I made the mistake of putting a towel in the container. For some reason, that towel makes them both aggressive. But once the towel was gone, they stopped the fighting. Silly bunnies.

I really wish I could use a time machine and just move 2 months forward in this bonding proces. I am so tired of it, and they move soooo sloooooooowly. Will they ever be friends?

Did one session this morning and other this afternoon. The afternoon session was in our bed with Molly as well. Karl was nervous and tense and had some goes at Freddie. Freddie was more concerned with getting back into the container or snuggling on my lap. If Karl could just relax, I think they would be fine. Eventually, he got so angry with Freddie, that I had to move them back to the kitchen table and finish a session there. Once back in the container and on the kitchen table, Karl groomed Freddie.

I am only updating this frustrating thread, because in case these two ever become friends, this thread should be an encouragement for anyone else experiencing this. I think I will try out the serene-UM again on Karl.

I’m not sure I want to continue bonding. I have two bunnies who spends 18 hours a day in a small cage, which was never ever my intentions. Karl used to be a free-roamer and now he is stuck in that cage most of his time. Molly is my only free-roamer and she is probably affected by all this as well. I used to have two outgoing bunnies and thought I would get 3, but now I only have one. Both Karl and Freddie are scared of me, because they know that I am the mean person who catches them and brings them to the terrible bonding sessions.

I am taking a small break from all this. They are fighting more. I did try giving Karl Serene-Um last night and this morning, but it has no effect. I don’t even think that a new territory would help in any way, because these two don’t care about territories – they simply just don’t like each other.

Weee, I love updating this frustrating thread…or well, actually not  I really wish it was over. I honestly really regret ever getting Freddie.

Anyways, so this was my new approach for today after having read tons of articles on the net. I went out and bought peanut butter and two kinds of marmelade hoping I could get Freddie to groom Karl. No luck. He refused to eat any of the test portions. Had he loved it, I would have made a bunny burrito on Karl and had hoped Freddie would lick him.

So, I thought of a new approach; using the bottom of one of the cages, so that they have a bit more space, but not enough for a real fight.

And then it went wrong (why don’t you guys just get along!!?):

Any inputs? I am so sad about all this.

Usually, we travel a lot, but I don’t want to as I know we cannot get a bunny sitter who will make sure they both get out-time. This also means, that our engagement is put on hold since this was supposed to happen on one of our holidays.

We are moving quite soon. I think we might just get the keys next week. We don’t have a car, but I was thinking of putting them in the bicycle trailer and then take advantage of the new place. However, not sure if I should just place them together in the trailer? If they start fighting, it will be difficult for me to interfere straight away, though most likely they will be scared to death.

What would your suggestion be then in the new place? Just to let them out in one of the rooms and see what happens?

Sorry if this reads different. I keep editing my post.

I honestly don’t think anything was too bad in the 2nd video there. They are not outright going for blood.  There was only some nipping and no real escalation of aggression. That’s good!    Be careful as they will pick up on your frustration. At the new place, I would continue with them in smaller enclosed spaces.

When you went away before when it was just Molly and Karl, or the trio with Jack, were they in a pen? Or bunny room?

I’m glad you say this. I wasn’t sure if it really was so bad, but I am loosing hope very quickly, so the smallest sign of setback, and I am ready to throw in the towel.

They would have access to the whole apartment and then the bunny sitter would sleep over before when we went away. We often went away for just 3 days without any bunny sitting also, but I couldn’t do that now. When we went to Greece in May, I had a stranger coming over, who actually came every day and let Molly change room, so she was with Freddie one day and Karl the other. But I didn’t know her and I don’t think I have her contact details anymore. She just wanted me to teach her to trim her bunnies’ nails in return.

How lucky, you are moving!

I would put all bonding on hold till then to be safe. Once in the new place, I would introduce them together, the THREE, into one area, such as a pen, big enough for you to fit in and small enough to control. Don’t give them many rooms right in the beginning in case they are still issues… safe one zone for neutral.

I don’t mind putting the bonding on hold So, does any of you support my idea of bringing them to the apartment in the bicycle trailer?

I’d have access to them from the top and the front and back. But most likely, the cars and the noise will freak them out, so I don’t think they will fight. Perhaps it will be my best alternative to a carride?

At least, should all fail, then we actually have to move out of the new place in January, so that will be new territory once again…

We won’t have access to a garden in the new place…I think. I haven’t seen it. So not sure if I get another chance for the trailer session.

I live light We sold my apartment last year in November with all my stuff and then we moved into my boyfriend’s old apartment, which we have just sold along with our stuff again. So, now we are moving into a temporary place, which – to cut a long story very, very short – most likely will only be available until January. Then we have to find another place. But I don’t mind. Bonus is, it will be Extra Extra new territory for the bunnies, as the new apartment is already furnished and we of course are not bringing any of the old furniture

And it worked by having them in it for a whole day?? I got to try this. I have read about the wear them out method, but it is so new that they are actually tolerating each other that I haven’t quite adjusted my approach. Perhaps next week, I can set a whole day aside for it. Yeah, I feel hopeful

Don’t worry, Petzy, I know you will get there once you get a break from it all. It’s taken me 4 months to get to this point with lots of breaks from it, and you are so much more persistent and creative when it comes to bonding approaches, so before you know it, you will have a quartet. I know it

Good to hear! There is hope for most of us then with bunnies who don’t get along. I am very hopeful now.

I’ve been doing a few sessions in the container for about 40 minutes. No stress. Just the container on my lap while I’m watching tv. It starts out with Karl being more aggressiv than he has been for a while and he will nip Freddie a lot.

Today I did a session on the dinning room table and Karl was nipping Freddie all the time. Freddie just takes it. I don’t understand why Karl is becoming such a meany, but clearly he is stressed about all this. I might just stop all sessions now until we move. I would just really like to see them bonded VERY SOON!

Wanted to do a “wear them out” session today, but it wasn’t that well planed. I used the hallway and added Molly as well. For the most part it went well, and I even had all three in the cage at one point eating hay (okay, so Karl looked like he was about to explode and I had to hold him).

So after 2-3 hours right after their second and really big fight, I finished the session, and hurried down in the basement with them to do a stress session on the tumble dryer. Unfortunately, it had no effect and they kept on biting and attacking each other.

So, I brought them back up and did a final session in the cage bottom on the kitchen table…and hey, that finally worked. Did that for 10 minutes until they cooled down.

So, from now on sessions will only be in the cage bottom. Apparently, it has the right size – not too big, not too small. And I can use my perfect fight blocker:
 Without this I don’t know what I would do. They can still see and smell each other, but I can easily put it between them if I see any aggressive behaviour. 

So, my plan is now – and I better stick to it!! – that I will do one session a day for a couple of hours until we move. Also, they still get Serene-Um twice a day. I am thinking of buying tons of dried chamomille as that should have a calming effect as well. And valerian as well. 

I really don’t feel hopeful at this point… 

Hmm, Petzy, I don’t have the same feeling as you do You know there are times, where I think…”hmm, should I book at ticket to Canada and get Pezy to sort this out” Man, that would be easier!

I hope you are right. As I understand it, you are saying that once they stop fighting, they are ready to be free-roamers together? That would be so great. Oh, I so badly hope that it will happen this year! But not exactly what I was hoping for with a trio

I think I should read your threads on Valmore + Clifford and your old quartet to feel encouraged. Probably have read them before but I need the encouragement now. Did Lint/Deidra and Neigey/Mops actually ever groom each other?

I’m going to do as JG suggests and not do more than ½ hour to start with the next week or so…today I did 2 hours, and it was more than they could take.

It did start out well though:

So far, so good. Both relaxing.

 They did try to nip each other occassionally, but that’s okay for now.

Although they look really tense on the picture, they did seem more relaxed in reality. Not that I had the courage to move the splash screener though, because I know for sure they would have fought then.

Just another picture of them NOT fighting.

 And then I just got to relaxed about it all, and it went wrong. 1½ hour within the session. Not that it was their first attempts to nip each other, but this one really affected them both afterwards. They do look fine after the little fight as you can see on the video, but afterwards Karl was so tense that he kept attacking me whenever I made a move.

This is what Freddie did after the fight…he hid

But does it count as a bonding session if he just sits in that hide-out box throughout the session?

I will try to find a box tomorrow for the next session. Thanks for the input I’ve been wanting them to have more contact, but I guess there is no point if it just causes fights. So, when I do I know that I am at the point where Freddie doesn’t need a hiding box?

Perhaps both could get a box?

I tried with the boxes today. It seemed to work on Freddie, who was much more active and curious. However, Karl seemed even more tense than ever. He was one big chunk of hard stone today.

It seemed okay though. Nothing went on.

Molly was hopping around on the kitchen floor, so I thought I wanted to see what happened if she was there – perhaps the boys would relax more.

I think this is an interesting video clip – I think Karl only reacts because Freddie is so much in his face. Not sure what Freddie is after. I mean, okay, he is not being friendly, but I am not sure that he is overly aggressive either…any inputs?

Karl is so extremely tense.

I felt sorry for putting Molly in between all this, so I let her down on the floor again. Thereafter, I let them just relax. It went fine for about 10 minutes and then I stopped the session on a good note.

I did a session yesterday and this morning. Not much progress, but at least they are more or less calm. It helped once they both got a little box of their own to hide in.

I tried adding Molly today, but as soon as she appeared, they started fighting. It was only when I put her back on the floor, that they calmed down. Don’t know if they are fighting over her?

Today’s session finished with a small tiff. The session had lasted two hours at this point and they were both getting restless, so I think that is what went wrong. After their tiff, I put them on my lap for 10 minutes, where they relaxed and grinded their teeth.

Please be friends very soon, thank you!

Posted By Petzy on 10/26/2010 07:39 AM
it is possible they are fighting over Molly. Anything can cause a territorial claim. So leave her out then. Stick with whatever works. If too long of sessions causes tiffs, shorten the sessions, if too small or large a space causes issues, adjust the space. You have made progress and so it’s looking up. Once you move you will see a big change. I am sure of it. I think humans forget how territorial rabbits are. It is such a strong drive in them to defend what it theirs.

I like to think that Mops just packed up and moved to Denmark, so I love the photos.

That is sweet. They do look alike

From what I can see in your last vids and pic, things look entirely normal. I feel like you don’t have to worry so much. I saw this behaviour in my pair and you just keep having sessions and eventually they’re just “eh, you again” (ignore each other),…then they inevitably look for companionship. So I’ll just repeat what I said before, stick with it and try do what you can every day.  Things will shift.

The mesh shield is great for getting in between them. You can (when you feel confident) allow them to come together without it and see how they deal… If they become too vicious, intercept with the mesh separator thingy. (Pasta strainer?) Use a distracting noise or shake the box and if this doesn’t work, put the separator in.

I like the use of this device as it means you aren’t picking them up and moving them apart – so you’re less “in there” if you get what I mean – it distances you. And of course it saves your hands from bites! I do think they need to meet without it between them more though. Some of the aggression you see might actually be toward this foriegn object than toward the bunny on the other side. Remember there was a point where they could meet with a cage wall between them and there was no aggression.

Hope that helps. Course this is just impression I can get base on a snapshot of a session. I’m not seeing all their interactions like you are. But from what I can see it looks like it’s going in right direction.

It is a splash shield  The bunny device of the year. Better than the plastic bag container from Ikea haha  I do feel that we are moving in the right direction, but it is just taking so incredibly long. Today’s session wasn’t that good. They both seemed to be in a bad mood and kept trying to get to each other. For the past 1 month or so, they have been caged next to each other at night, but I think I will stop this now. It seems that they are lashing ou at each other through the bars – although they cannot get to each other – so I don’t want them to have any contact at all besides the bonding sessions from now on.

I’m talking a break from it tomorrow – Karl is over-producing cecotrophes these days and I think it is stress – and then I hope they are ready for some new action Friday morning.

No no, don’t worry, I understood what you meant. My question to Petzy was mostly because I could see that Duffy was trying to start a fight and she was not intervening, so I thought perhaps I should do so with the boys. Because the other day, when I did my hallway session and they ended up fighting under the bed, it seemed to me that Freddie did try to avoid fighting with Karl and was making high jumps as well – unfortunately, he could not escape from under the bed. So, I was merely wondering if I should let them try it out once we move to the new place.

About the shield, if one of them tries to get close to the other’s head, I use the shield, but other than that, I do try to use it as little as possible. I can see though that they relax more when I put it down, so I do it occassionally to get Karl to relax.

I am never ever getting a new bunny again I thought bonding was fun, but it really isn’t

Do you have a link to your bonding thread? Just out of curiousity. I like reading about bunnies that have bonded as it gives me hope

I decided to skip a session today, but actually all day has been one long session day.

Usually, one is out while the other is caged, but sometimes my heart cannot bear it, so I have them in separate rooms with a babygate and two cages between them. I did this today, but because I was cleaning I did not have the cages on each side of the babygate. And then I noticed, that they were actually behaving and just observing each other, so I let them have this opportunity. I moved my bean bag over to the babygate and sat there all day.

Karl has spent all day at the babygate just watching Freddie. He seems really nervous about him. In the beginning, they did a few nose touches and each time both jumped backwards, but most of the time, he would run in hiding in his cage where Freddie could not get near him.

Maybe I should do this all week instead of the other session.

I could cry right now! My bf and I had a big fight and to prove some kind of point, he let Karl into the bunny room with Freddie there. What did you think happened? Lots of fighting!! Freddie seems fine, but I had to sit with Karl for 20 minutes before he calmed down.

I really don’t hope I am back to square one right now.

I’ve been having them in this new setup for the past couple of days. Freddie will try to bite Karl through the baby gate, so their interaction has not improvd but if I pet them, they will stop the nipping, so that is good. My bf goes on holiday Tuesday early morning and will be away for a few days, so I can go back to the setup once he is gone.

But what should I do with Karl and Freddie until then now that he just ruined everything? Should they have stress sessions or should I let them have a break?

Didn’t see your posts until now. I decided to do a wear them out session today. Perhaps a bad idea then.

First half hour went fine, then they fought on and off for 2 hours, and eventually Freddie escaped the area (kitchen), so we took a time-out for half an hour, so everybody could calm down. Then we continued, but the postman came to the door and I had to leave them. At that point, both were partly sleeping. I turned around and Karl had run over to Freddie, but it seemed that nothing would happen but I decided to pick him up and hold him while talking to the postman. Shouldn’t have done that ’cause he bit me so bad that we had to stop the session for the day. I ought to go to the hospital and have stitches as it won’t stop bleeding and it’s been several hours now. I could not get him to let go – I was honestly crying, while I had him in my arms – his jaws had just locked on me. It was so painful.

Anyways, actually, it seems that Freddie is not the agressor now. He ran around near Karl, but it seemed that he had no interests in biting him – however, Karl was so nervous that he would attack anything (even the kale, I handed him, he bit through my blouse and my jeans as well), and this is why most of the fights happened, i think. If he would calm down, I think it might work.

Molly was part of the session now and then. She ran off everytime a fight was about to start. Most of the time, she just entered the area to eat their treats and then disappeared.

Right now, I am ready to give up I cannot see those two ever getting along. It’s been 5 months now! Also, I found that Karl has lost a piece of his ear. I looks recently though it wasn’t bloody or sore anymore. Perhaps from the other day?

Should I close the door between them so they don’t see each other?

I did call the emergency room that asked me to come in, but after waiting 2 hours, I went home. I am going to the doctor tomorrow instead to get a tetanus shot. I think it will be too late to have stitches then though. It’s been 11 hours and it is still bleeding…The wound is really deep and big. I am so happy that it was me he bit and not Freddie

I’ve closed the door into the bunny room and the baby gate is gone. We are getting the keys on Monday, but most likely not moving in before the weekend after. So I can choose to do either one or two weeks’ break.

I ordered some homeopathic remedies for pets that show aggression due to nervousness (Karl) last week, I really hope that they will get here soon – oh, and that they actually work!

I really have no hope for the new place, but I really truly want to believe that you are right! Fingers crossed

I was actually thinking perhaps only letting Molly out fulltime and then only let Freddie and Karl out for bonding sessions in what will be the bunny room. And then not let them out at any time in the other rooms? Or should I do the sessions in the kitchen/living room and then save the bunny room as neutral ground if possible?

Defintely. They haven’t been caged together yet, but they are inseparable and he loves her. So that would be no problem. What are you thinking?

Okay, I could do that. She’s been having it easy by having been free-roaming while they have been caged, so now it is her time. She really hates cage time though and panicks (she used to be a full-time cage bunny), but hopefully it will only be for a while. I can work something out.

So far, she is living with Karl during daytime and with Freddie during night-time.

Do they have to be caged for this to work? I just found out that there will be 4 bedrooms in the new place, so each could have a room until they are bonded? Or is it better that they are close together in a cage, so Molly’s scent is rubbed off on them (she does cuddle with them anyhow, but of course not constantly).

I guess though that the cage thing is better, because I can let them switch cages then…though I could do that as well if they are in a room of their own. Aaargh, as you can tell I really don’t like the cage-thing, but I will do it though, if that will work better. I NEED TO GET THEM BONDED!

Thanks for the link to grids, Petzy. First time I have seen them here. Perhaps I could use them for my bonding pen…

And thanks, JG. Saw a doctor today and got antibiotics and the tetanus shot. At least, something good came out of it, because if you need the shot for a holiday abroad it costs around $100, but if it is due to an animal bite, it is for free…thanks, Karl, because it was time for my shot anyhow

This is the never-ending story, and it is killing me!

I am giving this one more week and then Freddie has to move somewhere else  I am so sad about this.

They have had their 1½-2 week break, and the past 3 days they have been caged and Molly has swaped cages with them. I was so nervous about the session today hoping that things would finally change now that we have moved.

There has been tons of fighting – Karl has pulled off a big chunk of hair right next to Freddie’s eye and he is bleeding. There were times though where they would both back off and like they were only testing each other and not interested in fighting at all. But after the fight that caused the big wound next to Freddie’s eye (oh, he was squeaking so terribly as he moved away from Karl ), Freddie has been really angry with Karl and the attempts to fight intensified.

As can be seen on the video, it seems that Freddie is guarding the litter box, so I moved it, but it didn’t help though.

So far, the session has lasted about 4 hours. I intend to do 2 more hours – I’m trying to wear them out.  Right now they are relaxing in each side of the room. They get near each other but then run back to their corner.

 * the internet connection here is really bad, so it will take an hour or so to upload the video, so that will follow later.

Video finally uploaded.

Any observations and inputs are more than welcome, since this is so frustrating that I am ready to sit down and cry.

So, I should do the cuddle sessions in the container twice a day for 15 minutes? And if they start moving around, I should walk around with them to stress them or use the tumble dryer, but preferably just sit with the container on my lap?

I have really lost all hope, but I hate to see Freddie become a lonely outdoor hutch bunny so I owe it to him to really try my best.

Maybe I should look into those grids, you mentioned. How big a pen should they have considering that is their only outtime for a very long time. I feel so bad for Karl, because he was such a happy free-roaming bunny and now he is always stuck in that cage. And it has been absolutely no fun to have bunnies for the past 5 months, and I don’t even bother reading other people’s posts in here, because bunnies are nothing but frustration and tears to me now. Yes, I am fed up!

So how many times a day should I do the container bonding? You need to spell everything out for me because I honestly cannot see clearly about bonding anymore now I did try going back to the container this summer, but nothing happened…other than the fact that both got scared of me and ran off every time they saw me, and Karl would try to attack me every time. The pen should make it easier though for me to catch them.

Posted By Petzy on 11/16/2010 07:42 AM
oh, you mean a pen for bonding sessions? I think it would not work. From your video I think Freddie and Karl would compete for a defined space such as a grid pen at this point… just my gut feeling. For cementing I think you may need to go large like a small room or a big pen.
I tried a pen with Duffy and Deirdra for sessions. That’s when they had the biggest setback, the most serious fight.
I will look for some videos of mine that might be useful.

No, no, I did mean instead of having them caged. I thought bonding sessions would be their outtime, but seeing this is impossible I would like a larger spacer for them – and Molly can be in one pen during the day and in the other during the night.

Videos are very much welcomed

Thanks for the videos, Petzy. I think Freddie and Karl are like Roger and Clifford.

I find it very hard to believe that I will ever get to that point with Freddie and Karl though but I guess I have to keep believing it. I don’t know when such a big piece of Karls ear has been bit off (maybe when my boyfriend let them together?), but now with Freddie’s eye, they both have a good reason to hate each other.

We don’t have a car and we don’t have a bath tub. But I did find a mobile baby bath tub here that I can use. Could I not start out with this? It’s just I have done 10000 millions of sessions in the container and they didn’t lead to anything.

Ok, I will do exactly as you say

So just to get everything straight (sorry for being an annoyance, Petzy): 2 x 15 min sessions in a container every day. To start with, they are placed head to butt. After a while, I can place them head to head. Once they don’t try to bite each other, I am ready to move on to the water in a bigger container.

I just want to tell that I have done the two sessions today – first time, they were going at each other’s throats, and I was swinging the container like crazy to get them to stop. Eventually, Freddie sought comfort in Karl, and I sat down with them. Freddie tried to hide under Karl, and Karl was trying to escape the container. So, so far, so good.

Second time, Karl decided he wanted to see Freddie dead. So he would again and again attack my hand (thankfully, I was wearing skiing gloves!) thinking it was Freddie. That little bugger bit my finger and held on for 30 seconds – I could even feel how his grip got more and more strong and tense. Imagine if that had been Freddie or my bare finger?!! I had to hold Karl down quite a bit. I am not sure what Freddie was up to. Sometimes it is difficult to tell if he is just waiting for the right moment to bite Karl or if he was in fact scared and just wanted to hide his face under Karl’s tummy.

I probably won’t update for a good while, because I expect the sessions to be like this for a month or so. But I feel more confident now. It feels good to have Petzy guiding me all the way

I have orded two pens for them so they don’t have to live in those tiny commercial cages. I am still really sad that I don’t have a bond with them anymore seeing that they are cage bunnies and I don’t get to interact with them, but maybe in January things are different?

I hope so!

I have a stunt double, yes. It is in the litterbox in the small cage, so Karl and Freddie are either with Molly or the stunt double. They don’t seem to care much for the double though – although Karl has groomed it a few times these past days (it was his best friend when he was a single bunny). But at least none of them have kicked it out of the litter box, so maybe the appreciate the company and the scent.

Haha, no joking about bunnies in this house No, I did tell him today what the new game play was and that I am really sad about all this, so I need him to be nice about the bunnies and trust that I am doing what I can, and that Petzy has promised it will work out haha

Hmm, so I need a completely new stunt double? I really like Birger the Beaver though – and so does Karl. Freddie ignores him.

Just to update that we are all still alive – although they try their hardest to change that. Freddie bit Karl really badly around the eye last week and it seems that his eyelid will always be a bit funny looking now. Shame ’cause he had such beautiful eyes It happened because I wanted to try to walk with the container and shake it, which unfortunately also meant that I was unable to stop any fights. Now I got my hands on them all the time.

We are not moving forward or backward. It is the same every time – Freddie will be placed in the container first, and then I will put on my winter glove and get Karl. Karl will then bite the glove and be completely attached to the glove. Then I have to wait for the right moment to put Karl in the container or else Freddie will attack him. Karl is easy, because he will be so occupied with trying to kill the glove that he won’t notice a thing. Then he turns his back to Freddie, and they will be still for about 4-5 min. Freddie will try to move his head in the direction of Karl to bite, but I’m already prepared for this and holding him tight. At one point, Karl will suddenly make a really quick go at Freddie, but nothing serious – it’s like a fake attack, but I am prepared for this as well. And then they stay like this until the session is over.

Come on, you guys, get along, will ya!

I am working on filming a session. I hope we can do it today when my boyfriend is back from work, but it is a combination of needing proper day light (hard to get in the winter) and him being in the mood for it

But things are really improving! Really. No fights and no attempts to fight either lately. Freddie relaxes, closes his eyes and will grind his teeth, and yesterday and today Karl seemed much more relaxed. I don’t trust any of them though!

Well, what can I say…a woman I have been in a lot of contact with the past 6 months after she found my website on house rabbits is coming next Friday with her bonded pair. Her pair is going to meet Freddie and we will see if that is a better match.

She has been talking about a third rabbit for a while now and this week, she contacted me after having heard I was still struggling with the two rivals, and she suggested she adopted Freddie. It is not an easy decision, but I would like to give it a go. The bonding sessions has been going on for 6 months now, and they still hate each other. I want Freddie to live a happy life as a free-roaming bunny, and so far he hasn’t had this chance yet, because I need to keep all in pens to avoid fights. And Karl who is a nervous bunny and so easily stressed needs to get his life back as well.

Keep your fingers crossed for next Friday, because Freddie’s happiness is on stake, and he really deserves it!

Freddie was picked up today by the woman and her daughter and their two bunnies. Their male groomed Freddie straight away and they seemed to like each other, although that bond still need to be worked on. The female was quite stressed and nervous and both Freddie and her would take turns humping each other, but no aggression between them as such.

So hopefully, Freddie has two new friends very soon. He deserves it.

I will change the status for this thread now.

It is quite sad to see Freddie go. I do miss him, but I know I will get lots of updates about him in the future, since his new bunny mum and I e-mail each other quite often. Giving up on Freddie has been for his and Karl’s sake. Bunnies don’t live that long, and I have already wasted ½ a year of his life on stress and confinement, but it was my hope that it would work out in the end.

I thought perhaps Molly and Karl would react just like when Jack died. But they are doing fine. Karl is really happy and outgoing today. He doesn’t make fake attacks at me if I get too close, but actually he comes running to be petted now. I wonder if he can really tell that Freddie is gone?

The pens are gone now! My bunnies are finally free roaming again! Molly spent the night on the bean bag She and Freddie seemed much closer than she and Karl does, but perhaps it is because she is used to dividing her time between the two guys that she does’t seem to react to his disappearance.

But I miss him

For anyone who ever had an interest in the Karl-Freddie bond, I just wanted to update – and well for anyone who struggles with a tough bonding.

Freddie is back. In his new home, the bonding sessions did not go so well and he practically killed the other male, who thankfully survived after surgery and 5 days forced feeding. So, he was returned a week ago and is now back – a little fatter and with a new name to symbolise a new beginning.

And this is my latest update:

I just wanted to let you know.

98% keeping him – the video I have uploaded just now, is probably the most positive one of all time, and he has only been back for a week. I am almost sure that they will be bonded in the nearest future. They can groom, eat and relax within a very close proximity of each other now (12 inches). They used to try to kill each other, so that is quite a change.

His name is Herman now There is a really nice and happy folk song about some friends named Karl and Herman. I love that song and since it is a happy song, I thought it would be great karma