Well, it does sound territorial to me, since Molly may be marking the cage as HERS now, and Karl’s one time was a response to her marking by letting her know it’s his, too.

I’m wondering about your set up with the food being in the litter. Actually, while it is helpful to put hay in a corner of the litter to entice a bunny to use it, they generally prefer to keep their food clean and separate. They do poop while they eat often, which is another reason for hay in the litter. But for pellets, water and greens it’s good to have separate dishes nearby in the cage. Do they eat together? What does your set up look like? I don’t want you to post pix of your home on the web, but if you could take a shot of the cage arrangement, maybe it just needs a little adjusting to get them to use it in a cleaner way.

She may feel the need to do it if the cage wasn’t hers. If it still smells like Karl’s place, she may be trying to make it smell like her own instead.

I personally have never liked those little corner pottys at all, due to the fact my bun sticks her butt up in all corners, so she would sometimes miss at first too, due to her thinking she was in the right spot but it going over the edge instead. You may want to move to a more rectangular potty if its the case with your buns as it was for mine

Ahh gotcha. So she’s being stubborn then

Well, not sure then Give it a bit of time without the newspaper on the bottom, and the food out of the litterbox and see if she gets used to it. If not, try movign the litter box to the corner she IS using. Maybe she just likes that side better, who knows.

Perhaps the base of his cage feels like a litter pan to her, seeing as she’s a big girl. Especially if she is backing up into a corner.
Since they are free-roamers, what about taking the cage base away and just setting up one large litter box in that corner? Then their food a water along the wall there. Where do they sleep? In the cage base?
You could even try the cardboard box again if you want to cover the pan up a bit. Maybe put the large one inside an open box that’s on it’s side. So the main opening is the entry and perhaps cut a smaller hole in one side. Does that make sense? I wasn’t sure how you used the cardboard box previously.

If she insists on peeing in a different corner, I would definitely put a litter pan in that corner, put some pee soaked litter (hers) in that box, and see if she goes there. She might not like your litter, and prefer a different kind. Pellets can be uncomfortable for some bunnies and others love them. (Spockie only liked soft, Sammy only likes pellets.) After trial and error, Sammy gave me a clear message of when I got it “right” and did fine.

Also, this may not matter, but you could put her greens into a food dish, instead of just on the cage bottom. She may be territorial because her food is more vulnerable in the open, where a dish is easier to protect it while she eats. Just a thought.

Karla, I don’t have any suggestions that others haven’t already said. However, you asked if maybe you should just leave the cage dirty. I really wouldn’t. A few poos here and there occasionally are ok, and might be helpful for a bit if the problem is indeed territorial, but if the cage is completely soaked in urine, it can cause urine scald if your rabbits are sitting in it. More likely, since theyre free range, the rabbits just won’t bother going into the cage after while, and then you’ll have “accidents” all around the house.

If you think it’s territorial, it might help the buns to leave the pee scent in the cage… just wipe up the excess with a paper towel instead of using vinegar to do a thorough cleaning.

When you’re making these changes, Molly (or Karl) may be protesting a bit and peeing on the floor. When you get it right (as in what they want!) usually there’s no ‘accidents’. Unfortunately that means figuring out what is right!

I get the idea about the box, Jerseygirl…but just to get a fuller understanding of bunnies, why do you think that would help? I am willing to try everything! What I had before was two huge cardboard boxes with a small hole in each (a really small hole into Karl’s box so she couldn’t enter )

I just added that as you had said it was successful for a short time. It wouldn’t necessarily aid litter training, rabbits don’t necessarily need the box for privacy etc, more so it you wanted to cover things up a bit.  With the 2 openings, this is better for rabbits. As they are prey animals, they like to have more than one escape route. If the box is over the litter pan like a hooded cover, they’re probably less likely to use it.

When you took the cage away and left just the toilet for those 2 days, was it Molly’s larger toilet?

I have one of those. Now I just use the bottom part. I did use it before and Jersey would go thru the flap door but it was her 2nd box. I don’t think she would have been so good with it if it was her main box. I also get little presents on the floor when they eat hay from the litter box…I’ve thought about putting the hay at the back so they have to get in to eat it but chances are it’ll get peed on! I’m still working on it. I think a hay rack suspended over it would be ideal.

What I did with both Tucker and Thumper when litter training them was to take the base of a cage like that and just use that as a litter box in their area, I just filled the base up with pelleted litter.  It might sound like a waste but it really wasn’t since it was so big.  I was able to  just scoop out and throw out the peed on litter and any piles of poops and then just spread out the remaining litter and adding a little bit of fresh to it.  Then when the poops in there got excessive I’d just change the whole thing out.    I did this until they seemed to consistently only go in the one corner of it and then gradually I moved down to a smaller box.  Having a bigger area to pee and poop in at first seemed to really help both of them.. that way there was a lot of space for them to choose from..but it was all in a pan and on top of litter, I think it helped to cement the idea of “this is where it belongs”, it only took a few weeks for them to get the hang of it and be able to use a smaller box in the same location.  I don’t know why a regular sized litter box didn’t work with them at first..it’s possible it was just too small of an area..with a cage filled with it they can hop around it a little bit and really get where they want to go.  And as long as you have their living space outside that cage, which you do since they’re free roam, then it’s still litter training them…just in a larger area

Also, with my buns I’ve never been able to have them have a plastic floor to their cage..if I do they feel it’s all litter box and will go wherever.  I don’t know what it is, I guess the feeling is the same so they just go for it…  If you do want to use that cage as a homebase type area what about getting a little piece of carpet or something and laying it down in there so it feels like a regular floor and not plastic?  Maybe that would help them distinguish?  Or you could get a box of NIC cubes and make them a little area that’s covered but doesn’t have a floor so that they get the idea of it being theirs but it wouldn’t have the plastic floor for them to pee on..

If you are not using that cage as a “cage” and they arent having accidents elsewhere… why not get rid of the cage!! Id just get a slightly larger rectangle box to use as their litterbox and place that where the cage was. I havent had success with those corner boxes both my buns prefer rectangle ones! Maybe give them two litter boxes so that Molly can “claim” one as hers and Karl can have his as the other. When I first put my boys together they wouldnt go potty in the same area of the litterbox, each had their own corner of it to use. Now they dont care but maybe Molly thinks Karl is dirty and doesnt want his smell near her privates hehehe smart lady!!! Anyways good luck!!

I second the motion of using the entire cage as a litter box, then honing in on which corner/s are most used.

After weeks of frustration with Thumper, I covered the entire cage floor with newspapers and litter until she chose just one corner to sit in. I eventually bought a corner litter box that was big enough for her to sit in comfortably and with a grate on top so things don’t stick to her bottom. This works well for her as she likes to scoot back when she pees. Sometimes she even huddles in there just to rest (it’s big enough for her to lay in, just not laying flat). Now I don’t have any problems unless I move the cage around, in which case Thumper sometimes decides to choose a different corner to use, and I just move the litter box there. I, personally, think she chooses whichever corner seems the least touched by humans and therefore the most private.

Since they are free roam, Molly may see the entire cage as a litter box right now. After awhile though, she should choose one corner she prefers over all the others. They’re just picky about which corner they choose.

Did the pooping everywhere stop? That may have been territorial a bit from the changes you were making to their set up. What type of litter do you use? If she has a pattern now of just doing it in the afternoon, could it be she won’t use a soiled box after a certain point? Would a more absorbant litter help?

But right now I am gathering up all my will power to cage her for a few days just to go back to basic litter training. I just feel so bad about doing it though it will make life easier if it work.

I need some of your will power! If it makes you feel better, I’m having issues also with my two (but I think chiefly my doe but it’s so darn hard to tell!). I was refreshing my memory on things I read about litter training and there was mention of “underlining”. From http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/litter.html

Behavior related.
Once the possibility of physiological causes is eliminated, the behavioral reasons seem to go something like this:

Miz bun eliminates next to her litterbox because of some stress, eg, a break in her routine such as less or more running time than usual, visitors at home, kids home from college or summer camp, any intensely emotional event whether good or bad. it could even be a single incident such as being frightened by a sudden noise (car backfiring, etc) while she’s in her box, which she then associates with being in the box. whatever the reason, she’s feeling insecure and tries to rebuild her confidence by “underlining her signature” (signature being her droppings in the box; underlining, the puddles/piles beside it). Unless it’s an ongoing stress that can be removed, figuring out the cause is not particularly relevant. the important factor is not what happened the first time but the habit that often grows from it. she pees beside the box today because she did it yesterday. many people do not take action for the first few incidents, especially with a rabbit who’s always been good about using the litterbox. they figure it’s a fluke that will disappear as suddenly as it started. this gives the habit time to take firm root. by day 3, the habit is fairly entrenched, and correction of the perceived cause will not solve the problem.

What WILL solve it? the usual: confinement, praise, rewards, vigilant observation and supervision during free-run time. but there’s a catch-22 to this method. it generally requires a change in miz bun’s routine, which is a common cause for the behavior in the first place. i know of no easy way around this knot. the hard way is to confine, praise, etc with minimal change to her usual routine. sometimes i add a box to the rabbit’s area. the novelty makes the box attractive (as do treats placed in it). she hops in to investigate, and voila! she eliminates IN A BOX. this is good behavior, worthy of lavish rewards. it’s often easier to get her to go in a new box than to go in the one she’s been eliminating next to.

It’s important for people to understand that this process can take time. A rabbit who’s been perfectly box-trained for 3 years and has peed next to the box for 3 days may need 3 weeks of intensive training to get back to her old, good behavior. why is it that bad habits take longer to undo than to initiate while the reverse is true of good habits?

For me, re-reading House Rabbit Society and BinkyBunny litter training info has been a good refresher.  It may help pick on point missed before.  For me, I’m think I invade their territory too much and perhaps some of this marking or underlining is going on.  Plus many, many other reasons I think it could be….. It can get terribly confusing – I need to remember to go back basic training just as you mentioned.

 It might be an idea to keep Karl and Molly together for the retraining now that they are bonded. Separating them may cause some stress and complicate matters.  Can you pen off their current area to define a space for them?

Posted By Karla on 10/09/2009 09:16 AM
Why do you think that you are invading your bunnies’ territory?

Haha! Because I’m always in there with my dustpan and broom!!  I should clean up when they’re out somewhere else.  Usually they’re fine with me being in there generally as to them it means food.  Thing is, pretty much the whole house is their territory.  Now if I start to shut them into their room more they’ll maybe think of it as their special space.  Who knows….

 So Molly has no problem sharing a box with Karl?  Also, have you ever seen he pee on the floor while he is in the box?   I also had meant to ask – do you think she could be peeing over the edge of the litter box?  Sorry if you having to repeat yourself – I’ve lost track a bit of Molly’s habits. 

With the retraining, I think the idea is just reduce the space they are used to, so as yours are free range, using a pen or large cage should be fine, not necessary to only use the existing cage.  It may seem unfair on Karl but he could be more stress by being separated from Molly.  I think you can still give them supervise play time out (with litter box available) but just be vigilant and get her into the box as needed then reward. (???) I’m not 100% on this as I’ve never done it….
 

Hi again! A few things I read you’d posted today had me thinking back to this thread. You mentioned elsewhere you have Karl and Mollys litterbox, water & food all placed inside one of the old cages? I wondered if taking the top part off would make a difference to Molly? Perhaps she’d feel less entrapped whilst going in to use the box. So if you haven’t started retraining by penning them up, maybe give this a go first…Is it inside this cage she pees next to the box? Like is there an area she’ll squeeze into and go? Or is it next to the cage on the outside she does this?

Also, someone mentioned about learned behaviours / learning by example – so if you do pen them both up, hopefully she’ll learn from Karls good litter habits. Just hope he doesn’t learn her bad ones!! Old habits take much longer to break out of (as mentioned in that article above) so it may just take Molly some time.

“Beneficial for a lot of reasons”…except they’ll be able to jump out with their food again! haha.
I am posting a lot on this I know. Maybe because I’m trying to nut out my own bunnies litter training issues. It helps to bounce things back and forth I guess. Now I’m thinking perhaps Molly is a bit of a “protester” too. She’s a dutch and they’re pretty clever – but it may mean things have to be “just so” in her mind and you must conform! Maybe she’s big on routine and pees when things are not on schedule. *sigh*

If you are finding what you are currently doing has improved things – don’t change anything yet.  i.e. Removing the top of the cage may actually bug her or seem your messing with her space.  Maybe just try this if you are not having results with the other things you are trying.

Oh, sorry for delayed reply! Umm… well they’re not as insane as last week but still way off where they should be. I’ve been “renovating” as in taking out the flooring because the peeing since bonding has left it yuck! I’m hoping new flooring and a bit of a habitat switch up might aid things. So instead of penning them up – I’ve shut of the “rabbit room” I put litter box in my living room and they stay there mostly. Their habits in that room are fine!

I hope for an update on how things are going for you…