Oh my gosh, that is awful but I am glad the rabbits are coming inside. Thank you so much for the updates and I think pictures won’t be necessary. I’m sending lots of loving *healing vibes* for your bun!

i would kind of like to see a pic, i have never seen an abcess before, but if the mods think the pics are too gross then dont worry about it!

Tell ya what, Panic can you post a link to the pictures with a warning? That would be awesome!   Be sure to put this warning on it:

*WARNING:  LINK(S) CONTAINS GRAPHIC/DESCRIPTIVE MATERIAL.

Sorry I’m just someone who has a weak stomach sometimes. Thank you for humoring me. 

Are they treating the abcess only? or are they treating the cause also? If they don’t treat the cause- which could be dental- the abcess will only come back again. Are you dropping her off for sedation or anesthesia when they treat her?

Aww the poor bun. I hope they get things fixed up.

I am so glad to hear your mom has agreed to let you have them inside! Yahoo! Cleaning the litterbox every two days isn’t that hard. Takes just a few minutes so it won’t be as bad as you think.

I agree with Katnip – your vet needs to figure out the cause. I am glad you are determined about making sure they give you meds. Baytril is a common treatment,and is usually given for a few weeks orally, but for stubborn abscesses, they may try something else. But hopefully they won’t just give something at the vets office and then send you home with nothing.

It’s important to not let it get this big though because as abscesses grow, they can attach to muscle and bone. And this can put even put an eye at risk if it gets close.

It may be a good idea to read up on abscesses and treatment – here are some links to help you:   (I know it may seem like booooring reading, but it is good stuff to know)

http://web.archive.org/web/20010828100825/www.therabbeeotcharity.freeserve.co.uk/abscesses.html

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/4-4/pandora.html

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=503&S=5

Keep us updated!  I’m sending  healing vibes!

Awe poor little bunny. Is there any way you can get her to the vet before Saturday?  I would think every day she’s not seen it will get worse. Cleaning the litter box frequently is not hard at all.  Actually completely dumping it is easier than scooping out bits and pieces.  I do this daily and it’s a breeze.  I have two litter boxes that I swap out so I always have a clean one to use. I would recommend that you clean daily especially with this infection. Also if you use stove pellets as litter it’s cheap if you are worried that throwing litter out daily is expensive.  40 lbs for $8.  Keep us updated and I hope things resolve quickly.

poor Babs! that looks painful. are you taking her to the new vet you just saw? i think that person was a little bit more rabbit savvy, right?

OH man! I would be freaking right out!! Glad she’s going to the vet-keep us posted!!

Poor little bun! Good luck!

(The pics aren’t really gross, guys. Just sad..poor Babs with her swollen face!)

Oh wow, poor bunny…I hope she heals fast.

Good stuff Panic

This is BinkyBunny – just forgot to sign out when doing admin work

I am glad they are going to look for the cause! There is a danger in letting it grow this large though, so I really don’t recommend this happening again. Next time be sure to get a vet to look at it as soon as you notice even the slightest growth.

I am sending out positive vibes! Please keep us updated.

please let us know what the vet says/does. that’s very responsible of you to want to be there with your bunny!

Seriously you need to find another vet-it sounds as though Babs quanity and quality of life depends on finding a good vet that will treat the cause and not the symptom.  To say that she is not in any pain now is insane- she has a raging infection- yes it probably feels better with the draining and in about 48 hours if antibiotics start to work.  But abcesses and infections HURT- and any vet that does not think so isn’t worth the money spent there.  Did they bother to look at Bab’s teeth?  SOMETHING is causing the abcess- and it is better to treat it than not- but your vet should be making an effort to CURE it- instead of “keeping it away for now”.   Don’t you want the problem cured?  Recurrent infections in the bone like that can lead to bone loss and affect the eye and her ability to eat.  There are plenty of safe rabbit antibiotics out there that when properly will to treat and CURE the problem with the additional vet procedures needed-  dental/skull x-rays, dental work/extractions/filing, etc…

Is this the same vet that spayed her?   Can you find out what Babs was diagnosed with that the vet thinks a mere 5 days of antibiotics will fix.  You specifically wanted to make sure that you went to the vet to get all the info and not get it second hand from your parents…call the vet clinic- they will tell you what your rabbit was diagnosed with.  This vet sounds reluctant to prescribe anitbiotics for a rabbit that has a severe infection- if this is the case the vet is not QUALIFIED to treat your rabbit.  The only thing I know of for infections is antibiotics and your vet is not doing you a favor by not treating Babs illness seriously.

KatnipCrzy has said it all perfectly.  I totally agree with her. Sounds like this vet is not qualified at all to deal with rabbits.  I know this is difficult but unless you treat the underlying cause this is going to be a difficult situation to resolve. Do find out what Babs has and let us know.  I am very very curious now.

Has the vet tried baytril as both of those links suggest? Also, I’m not an expert but those links both state that the rabbit should be kept in a clean, non stressful environment.  Wasn’t she outside?  In the fenced in grassy/dirt area?  I would think that being outside and not kept in a controlled clean environment would just cause more stress.  All that stress would be what is causing all this to flare up couldn’t it?

Oh I am so sorry to hear it’s pasturella.  Hope you can keep poor little Babs comfortable. Hopefully these drugs will help. Good luck!

Hi Panic

I’m glad the vet gave you those meds and I hope Babs starts to feel better soon!! My suggestion would be to get a second opinion when your finished with the medication. If you have two opinions that both are the same that will make you feel better. I’d assume your vet would want to see her again when the meds are done, so maybe instead of seeing that one, you could try another vet

{{ BABS }}

Did your vet test for pasteurella?  Another member here on BinkyBunny had there bunny tested and it took about a week to get the results.

Because the answer of pasteurella is not a favorable diagnosis- especially if they have not bothered to test, are treating only for 5 days, and what about Bab’s sister?  Are they separated now?  Has she been tested?  What did your vet advise to do for Babs sister?

This would be a good link to show your vet so she can learn about pasteurella.  Because while one symptom fits for Babs- an abcess- it is actually not a good example of a pasteurella abcess and is FAR MORE descriptive of another problem that is not pasteurella- a dental abcess.

It is good that you have faith in your vet- btu don’t settle for a poor prognosis when a treatable condition could be the problem.  Yes, most bunnies have been exposed to pasteurella.  And even if your vet is adamant it IS pasteurella why is she not treating as the rabbit experts recommend- surgery on the abcess and Long term antiobiotics with a antibiotic shown to help pasteurella.

WARNING- THIS LINKIS VERY, VERY GRAPHIC- BUT IT IS CLEARLY POSTED BY A VET CLINIC THAT DEALS WITH BUNNIES THAT HAVE PASTEURALLA AND HAVE TREATED THEM.  IT SHOWS SICK BUNNIES, THEIR SYMPTOMS AND HOW THEY HAVE TREATED THEM- INCLUDING SOME X-RAY FINDINGS AND PRE AND POST SURGICAL PICTURES.

http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/pasteurella.htm

The pictures may be very gruesome but I think very informative. Thanks for sharing that link.

Panic I must say I’m very impressed with you! You are doing a wonderful job taking charge of Bab’s care and everything else. It’s hard enough for adults to take charge of their own health care with their doctors let along someone younger to take charge with a vet, that their parents are paying for… KUDOS to you!!!

I think you’re doing an excellent job and please keep us posted on sweet Babs-we pulling for her!! {{BABS}}

i am very proud of you Panic! it takes a lot to do research/ask questions, and stand up (respectfully) for what you believe is necessary. Babs only has you and your parents to look out for her, so it’s very important that you do everything you can to care for her to the best of your ability.

First of all, this information was not provided by a vet that you are looking at.

Secondly your vet would have to do a culture to determine whether it is indeed pasturella and what antibiotics it is sensitive too. Pasturella symptoms DO NEED to be treated especially when they are as severe as your rabbits.

I agree with Katnip too though that 5 days of antibiotics is definitely not enough! I do think however that chloramphenicol is a good all around antibiotic for rabbits.

WOW! Ditto, Ditto! I too am very impressed with you (and your family for listening to you). For finding great indoor space for your bunnies and asking the vet questions! It’s sometmes hard to ask our vet questions because you don’t want them to think that that we don’t trust them, but a good vet will not feel angry and hurt by question. It will just give them the opportunity to share with you what they know so you can understand. And regarding the things they don’t know, it will give them the opportunity to learn even more. I know with my vet, who is extremely rabbit savvy, if she is not sure about something, or hasn’t heard of something I have asked about, then she will research it and get back to me.

So good for you for asking questions, and don’t feel shy about asking even more questions. You said you asked the vet how she knew that it was pastuerella, so….how did she know for sure? Did they do a culture?

I know there are still some very good questions and suggestions that others have posted to you. They are very important to consider, but I just have say again that I am really impressed with all the steps you have taken to make things right for Babs (and her sister?) Good for you! Good for you bunnies! Keep it up!

Baytril can be given as an oral injection (my vets office flavors it), or you can give it via the skin. (pulling the loose skin up on the back of the neck – like a light “scruffing” to inject – baytril can sting a bit though, but for some bunnies it’s still less stressful than oral injections)

The vet shows my husband and I how to do it when we have to.   I am squeamish, so I hold the scruff part up, close my eyes, and let my husband do the injection. This is something your folks would have to help with, but I have never had to go into get the injections. Your vet may have said you could only come in for injections if she thought you were the ONLY one to do it. But Baytril can be given orally, and again because it tastes bitter, our vet flavors it.

I am concerned though that from what you are saying – your vet relies on her experience as opposed doing a culture to be 100% sure. Even my very experienced rabbit savvy vet would do a culture so she could know WHICH anti-biotics would work best. If I were you, I would ask her to have it done just for your “own peace of mind”. She can’t argue with that. Plus, what harm does it do?

I mean what if they find out it’s NOT pasteurella (chronic)?  Especially important to be sure of since you have been advised to separate the two bonded girls at a time when babs needs comfort. It’s just more stress to take a bonded partner away. (Some vets, like mine, will not always recommend this because by the time you see the symptoms, the partner would have already been exposed anyway – and not all rabbits develop symptoms) Anyway, I’d want to feel 100% sure about everything when so much has to be changed because of it.

This article about culture testing is very informative: Check it and bring it to your vet if you want.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html

I wanted to be sure to cut and paste a section from the article I  linked to in previous post:

Why Bother with a Culture and Sensitivity Test?
One cautionary note. Some veterinarians who are not as experienced with rabbits as they are with cats and dogs will take one look at a rabbit with “snuffles” or other infection and proclaim that the problem is caused by Pasteruella multocida. Although this bacterial species is not uncommonly carried by rabbits, please do not let anyone convince you that your rabbit’s problem is caused by Pasteurella unless that diagnosis is confirmed via culture and sensitivity test! Not only are some strains of Pasteurella resistant to commonly prescribed antibiotics such as Trimethoprim sulfa, Baytril (enrofloxacin) and even ciprofloxacin, but infections in rabbits also can be caused by even more resilient strains of bacteria, such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Bordetella bronchiseptica, Staphylococcus aureus, and others. Without a culture and sensitivity test to positively I.D. the pathogen, you could not only delay your rabbit’s return to good health, but also be throwing good money after bad by treating with an antibiotic that is not effective against the particular strain of bacteria your bunny has.

If no bacteria grow at all, then it’s possible that the bunny has a fungal infection. If this is the case, antibiotics will likely make the problem worse, not better. Hence, it’s very important to check for fungal species if the culture and sensitivity test comes back negative for bacteria. Completely different medications are needed to control infections caused by fungi.

Source: Bottom of the article – http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html

But be sure to read the whole article. The more you know, the better!  This is how many of us know what we do, from research, very rabbit savvy vets, from each other.   It’s always good with healthcare – for our animals and for ourselves, to learn as much as we can.   Not everything on the internet is correct, but over time you learn what is worth looking at and what isn’t.  

I don’t know how much the test is. I am guessing about $40 – $60 but that is just from memory of all the other tests my bunnies have been through – blood tests, E.C. Tests, etc.

But again, have no idea on this. Best to discuss with your vet. Does anyone else have experience getting a culture and sensitivity test for pastuerella?

You should also talk to your vet about whether you can set up a payment plan so that you only have to pay a portion of the vet bill at one time- that will help you save up for it so that you don’t have to put off going to the vet until you have enough- not all vets do this, but it’s worth asking about!

If your bunny’s food has “treats” in it, like dried fruit, cereals, nuts, etc, then I recommend switching to a healthier pellet. A healthy diet supports a strong immune system which is important in fighting illnesses and infections, like what your bunny is dealing with.

What is the food that your bunnies get right now? The name, the type and if you have a link to it, I can look it up and see what it is exactly – hopefully will be able to see the nutritional values (fiber, protein, fat, etc)

IF you will need to change pellets, be sure to remember to change gradually – over a months time. As a drastic change in food can cause serious digestive problems.

I hope your vet will work with you on a payment plan! That would be great. Keep us updated.

So is this the new stuff?  Or is it the old stuff http://www.hartz.com/Hartz_Products/Small_Animal_Products/Food_and_Diet/Rabbit/3270010613_hartz_nutrition_wholesome_select_pet_rabbit_diet.aspx

Also, I know you said you threw away the old stuff (whichever it is), but it is really important to switch slowly. Especially if the contents are very different.   What was the old pellet if the above link is the new stuff?

Now IF this is the new stuff – this really isn’t the healthiest pellet. Would you like some recommendations? Where do you shop?

Okay, great!  I know you have made positive changes and done great things for your bunnies.  I can tell you absolutely love them.    And I can imagine that you must sometimes feel like ”geesh, what now?!” when it comes to the never-ending advice. So I am happy that you are open to hearing what we have to suggest.   I have been rabbit obsessed, it seems, like forever, and I am I STILL learning. 

I know it can be difficult to find the “healthier” stuff in chain stores, but even my local Pet Express now carries Oxbow Pellets, and the nearby Petco does carry a TImothy based that high in fiber and  free of unnecessary additives like corn, cereals etc.

When  looking for pellets  for adult bunnies, you want to find one that is TImothy based, high fiber (minimum 18% fiber) and free of those little “treat extras”.    The reason that a rabbit shouldn’t have all those “extras” is because their digestive system is already set-up to get the most nutrition out whatever they eat.  That is how their wild cousins survive – They must forage on whatever they can find, and most of the time it’s on grasses and such which don’t provide alot of calories and fat.  But a rabbit’s system is amazing about getting every little bit of nutrition it can out of the it.  Now even though our bunnies are domestic, not wild, they still have that efficient digestive system,and  when they are fed pellets that have too many calories,and too much fat, it can overload their digestive system, and over time this can cause problems for many bunnies. 

HRS Recommended Nutrional Value: (Compare these against yours)

• Fiber 18% minimum (20 -25% best)
• Fat 1 – 2% max,
• Protein 12 – 14% max (long-haired breeds,angoras, need higher)

• Calcium 1% max

  Also, never believe what the package says on the front – they always say “healthy” or “nutritional”, or try to sell you in someway.  Look at the pellet – if it’s got stuff besides pellets, don’t buy it.  If they don’t put nutritional values on the label, don’t buy it.  And if they do put nutritional values, then compare it to the ones above.  

  As far as recommended brands: Here are a couple of suggestons:

  1. Go to http://www.Oxbowhay.com and then click on store locations in the upper right hand corner.  You put in your zipcode, and it will display the nearest stores that carry that brand.  If you find one nearby, you want to be sure to get the BunnyBasic T. (for adults)

  2. Go to http://www.americanpetdiner.com/locations.html and type in your location – same things should happen – finding stores near you.  From this brand you would want the Timmy Rabbit Pellets.

  If you can’t find any stores near you, you maybe able to purchase online at places that sell these brands. 

  Plus, other people might have some suggestions as well for other healthy pellet that could work.

  Regardless of which pellet you go with be sure to SAVE the current pellet and wean them off over a month’s time.   This will be VERY important since this change will be more drastic.  

  So good luck with your pellet search and keep us updated.   

The other 2 pellets that I found that are acceptable for adult bunnies are Zupreem and Kaytee Timothy.

http://www.zupreem.com/animal/small_animal/nourish/NP_pellets.shtml

http://www.kaytee.com/products/search/?pid=43530

I think there are quite a few people here that feed the Zupreem and Kaytee Timothy.   I have seen both sold at our local Petco and I believe also Petsmart. 

write down what BB said about the fiber, fat, protein and calcium amounts. if it’s pre-packaged, check the numbers on the back, and again, the first ingredient listed should be timothy hay (NOT alfalfa) if you go to the petstore and get the food from a dispenser, i’d ask the employees there if they know the nutritional content and what the pellet is based from (timothy is what you’re looking for). you did an awesome job speaking up for Bab’s at the vet, so now you know you can do it, don’t be afraid to ask the store about the food they carry. it’s not good to keep switching brands of food, so once you find a good kind (probably at the petstore, i doubt wal-mart has anything that fits the requirements), keep getting the same type every single time.

In the meantime you can pick out those colored bits and seeds, won’t take a minute You can scatter them outside for birds/squirrels

Panic:  There are actually several bunny slaves dealing w/ Pasturella.  I believe Wendyz is one…but I’m drawing a blank on the others.  Maybe the leaders can suggest others. 

I agree w/ Katnip.  I think it’s odd that the vet was reluctant w/ meds.  Even if she was concerned that Babs might have issues, she could have given you some motility meds.  Leo got motility meds when he first had chronic teeth drama.  B/c he was taking 2 different antibiotics and pain meds, the vet was concerned that …his system wouldn’t be flowing as freely.  Can you locate another vet for a second opinion?  Can others chime in on the pasturella experience?  You might want to do a new post looking for others dealing w/ this terrible illness.  Good Luck and lot’s of bunny kisses to babs.  She’s been through so much and really deserves some peace and health!

Well I know you searched really hard to find this vet, but it still doesn’t sit well with me that she won’t do a culture – or was she willing and was the cost too high for you right now? Or ? Not judging, just trying to figure out why a culture STILL hasn’t been taken.

When I got Olivia tested for Pasteurella it was about $75.00 for the culture. But I also had to pay $30.00 for courrier charges since the culture isn’t done directly at my vet’s office. I was worried about it since they sometimes have to put the bunny under anasthesia to do the swab up the nostril but Olivia didn’t mind it too much and they didn’t have to drug her.

I really hope things work out for you and Babs. She’s such a cutie.

Awe got it. Well, the test will be helpful in determining which meds will be needed, but what worries me is even if your vet did take a culture, would she know what to do with the results? If she didn’t think it was important, maybe it was because she didn’t know how much it could really help identify the problem. Then you’d pay for a test that she doesn’t know what to do with. SO, you may call and ask her and say you are thinking about having a culture test, and ask her what this culture test will tell her and will it affect how Babs is treated with meds? Then come back here and tell us her answer, and we can give at least our “opinion” about whether having a test done under her supervision will do any good or if you should look for another vet. That way you won’t waste your money.

How is Babs doing so far? How is the abscess on her face? Is shrinking, staying the same or growing?

that’s a good point BB… i didn’t think about the vet not being able to interpret the correct treatment from the test. again, Panic… we’re so proud of you for being responsible for Babs like this. you’re doing a very good job. i’d also like an update on how her abscess is, is she taking the meds without a problem?